Anti-Monitor Revision

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Also I forgot to say, but I agree with the revision FRA

 

[Firestorm808]

@Elizio33

What does the Seventh Force Diminished State mean again?

 

[Elizio33]

@Elizio33

What does the Seventh Force Diminished State mean again?

Maybe another key since she was weaker until the end of JL #34.

When Perpetua was released, Mar Novu was concerned about her powers which were growing days by days since faith in doom was spreading and Lex had unlocked six of the Hidden Forces. Her sons merged together to form the Ultra-Monitor in one last attempt to seal Perpetua before Lex succeed to unlock the seventh force, but he failed to do seal her and the seventh force was unlocked and Perpetua become much more powerful.

So, a third key should be added.

^

 

[Elizio33]

I think her keys should be like this:

At least 2-C | Low 1-C | 1-A

Key: Pre-Seventh Force Diminished State | Post-Seventh Force Diminished State | True State

^

 

[Firestorm808]

Ah, got it.

 

[Jared1111]

I disagree for a myriad of reasons, for one, the statement directly from Monitor is that he has the power of infinite positive matter universes flowing through him, and he uses that power directly to stalemate the Anti-Monitor throughout their battles over millions of years. He even clearly states that losing those universes is causing him to weaken and making it so he can't stop the Anti-Monitor from destroying all that exists, that's why the AM uses the wave in the first place to not only destroy all reality but cripple the Monitor from the offset. I don't agree with the argument that "Power Source doesn't equal AP" because the power source itself is stated directly to be the reason that he fights the AM in the first place and the destruction of the universes itself is stopping him from taking on the AM 1v1 as he used too.

Positive Matter in COIE isn't just defined as the stuff in the universes, but basically, all energy and time/space throughout the universe itself, its why anti matter can attack "all things at all times". So i'd also say the AM wave is an outright 2-A feat on its own (though i don't think anyone's arguing otherwise)

Also, don't we already consider characters like Supergirl and Superman hurting the Anti Monitor as outliers here before? Even if we don't consider it an outlier, we also have a direct feat from Superman that already puts him in the 2-A category we also consider as an outlier, so arguing that Superman can only be 2-C along with characters that scale to him seems strange. Its not out of the ordinary that hurting the AM was just an outright outlier or it falls in line with other feats the characters that scale to the AM already have. Also, if we're allowing that, do we also start scaling Full Power AM to Wally West since he was able to shatter his Armor completely? If we're ok scaling Supergirl and Superman to AM as a fair comparison, and Wally West was directly able to cause more damage to a stronger version of said character? (I know this last point is a bit of whataboutism about a different character but i'm just clarifying how allowing those characters to scale open a can of worms)

EDIT: Also as Firestorm points out, Supergirl could also have been potentially powered up in the fight by the Solar Collector and was still killed in one good shot by the Anti Monitor, so the scaling itself may also be knocked out of wack.

I personally feel the 2-A scale itself is fine as of right now, lowering the AM to 2-C based on feats we already consider outliers in general (with characters that would have 2-A feats if we decided to get rid of the outliers) seems a bit much, especially with a major plot point in the story already stating how powerful the Monitor was and why the AntiMatter wave existed in the first place and why the AM needed to destroy the universes with his wave to weaker the Monitor so he couldn't stop him. I'm not directly opposed to 2-C if more evidence is found, but from what I've seen it doesn't seem all that conclusive.

 

[Firestorm808]

Regarding the AM armor, both a weaker and unamped supergirl in the AMverse and the shadow demons were able to break it.

 

[Jared1111]

I think in both instances you can consider them at best Supergirl going way out of her normal strength since it was her throwing everything she had at AM and AM still vastly outmatching her when he got a good shot in (potentially using her scaling to potential to a 2-A Superman) and the shadow demons scaling to them, or more realistically both being outliers since they contradict the main plot point of Monitor and AM fighting for a million years, and the Monitor in the story being directly stated to scale to the power of infinite positive matter flowing through him and him directly using that power to stalemate the AM. And his armor wasn't directly cracked by that conflict at least from what was shown.

Unless there's a part in COIE where it directly contradicts that Monitor not being powered by the Infinite Positive Matter Universes, I see no reason we should consider the Supergirl and Shadow Demons to be substantial enough to outright downgrade a character from 2-A to 2-C.

(Also, random side note that would be addressed in another thread, but Supermans other 2-C feat also is vague enough to be a 2-B/2-A feat anyway)

At absolute worst, I could at least see "2-C, possibly 2-A" working for the Monitor scaling itself separate from the shadow demon and supergirl feats if we need to.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Regarding the empowerment, i don't think it actually supports, well, any rating since it seems to be high 3-A, so we can forget my comment.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Also, should I ask Matthew to help us out with this, or is there a risk that he will start any drama?

May as well get his input since he’s knowledgeable retired staff. I don’t think he’d make the same mistake twice.

 

[Jared1111]

Regarding the empowerment, i don't think it actually supports, well, any rating since it seems to be high 3-A, so we can forget my comment.

I see no reason why, like i stated Positive Matter in the context of the DC Universe isn't strictly related to just physical space and doesn't work exactly the same as normal Positive Matter anyway. There are references to the context of the matter itself encompassing all of creation not just like Galaxies or Stars, but space-time as well, and the universes themselves.

Just like how the Anti Matter Wave was not just leaving husks of universes, it was outright destroying timelines and ravaging across time and space simultaneously, and then expanding the AM Universe to outright take the place of any universe that had been destroyed, which normal Anti Matter doesn't do (as far as we know.) Anti Matter in general had a variety of effects on both Magic and reality itself. I don't think Matter/Anti-Matter in that context would occupy only High 3-A in any case.

 

[Thelastmlg]

In that case irt would be infinitly low 2-C, unless it occups the spacetime between universes and such.

 

[Elizio33]

I think base Coie Anti-Monitor should be 2-C and 2-A with Antimatter Wave

 

[Jared1111]

In that case irt would be infinitly low 2-C, unless it occups the spacetime between universes and such.

How would absorbing the total energy from an infinite number of Low 2-C universes be only Low 2-C? Why wouldn't it count the spacetime between universes? especially since the AM wave was specifically destroying the spacetime between universes itself and combining them into the larger anti-matter universe and AM's power itself. It wasn't just destroying the universes, it was destroying them in all worlds at all times, only leaving the 5 universes left.

Again, from what i've read of COIE, Positive Matter isn't used as the traditional matter itself, and encompasses everything that counteracts Anti Matter, that's why Anti Matter is outright able to destroy time and space simultaneously and outright absorb separate time-space universes into the larger Anti Matter Universe itself. Unless my interpretation is outright wrong (which it can be, and i'm open to suggestions otherwise) i see no reason why the flow of energy throughout the Multiverse would be limited to just Low 2-C, that seems ridiculous downplay.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Because infinite low 2-C is still low 2-C unless they changed the system again.

Don't accuse one of downplaying if they are literally asking most of it.

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg @Deagonx

What do you think?

I said don't ping me for DC threads

 

[Antvasima]

I said don't ping me for DC threads

Sorry. I usually remember, but make mistakes sometimes when I am thinking of something else.

 

[Antvasima]

I prefer separating COIE and Rebirth stats due to writer staff and intent.

I agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

May as well get his input since he’s knowledgeable retired staff. I don’t think he’d make the same mistake twice.

I will see if we are able to solve this issue on our own first. If that does not work out, I will ask him to help.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, Jared, immediately stop with the incendiary rhetorics/accusations. We are just trying to figure out the most appropriate and reliable tiering here. That is all.

 

[Jared1111]

Because infinite low 2-C is still low 2-C unless they changed the system again.

Don't accuse one of downplaying if they are literally asking most of it.

I ask why you ignored the second part of my post about how the AM wave specifically targeted the Positive Matter across the dimensions, which included destroying space-time between dimensions and absorbing them in their entirety, across all times, into the AM wave. In the context of the story it's obvious that Positive Matter isn't just the individual universes but also everything that connects the universes together, otherwise, The Anti Monitor wouldn't destroy all of the Multiverse just the Universes themselves. I say it seems like downplay because it's ignoring how the actual way positive matter is explained in DC and how the AM wave was affecting it. (Again, might be wrong still reading through COIE)

So unless we're arguing that the AM wave was actually an infinitely strong Low 2-C attack at best, I don't see why that would be the case to say that the Monitors power is only Low 2-C.

Also, Jared, immediately stop with the incendiary rhetorics/accusations. We are just trying to figure out the most appropriate and reliable tiering here. That is all.

... Was any of that really incendiary? I said i found something ridiculous downplay, which is kinda rude but not really incendiary. Everything else I said was me disagreeing, I wasn't attacking anyone's character.

Also if Matt is a knowledgeable member for DC i say we should add him since this is a major revision for a bunch of characters and how we scale one of the biggest characters in DC. Would seem a bit unfair to not inform him of the change so he can either defend or agree with the position. If he starts acting up just warn him again.

 

[Jared1111]

Sorry for the double post, but i'm reading through COIE and i feel like i have a decent case for the Monitors powers and why the Anti Monitor should remain as 2-A. I'll try to get my post done later tonight.

 

[Antvasima]

Just a note that attacking people's motives as supposedly being driven by need to downgrade characters for the sole reason of spite and hatred is incendiary in a power-scaling environment. It easily leads to an uproar driven by irrational persecution complexes.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, @Matthew_Schroeder would you be willing to help out here? Take note that I am asking you to help out, so please make an effort to behave well, be constructive, and not cause any drama.

 

[Greenshifter]

Jared makes sense to me. So unless we have explicit proof that AM got weaker by the AM wave, he should stay 2-A. Unless we’re gonna start randomly assuming multiverse busters’ regular AP doesn’t scale to their multiverse busts anymore.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I agree with Greenshifter

 

[Antvasima]

What about the rest of you?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Agree with Firestorm.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Regarding the AM armor, both a weaker and unamped supergirl in the AMverse and the shadow demons were able to break it.

Isn't that just PIS?

 

[Firestorm808]

Isn't that just PIS?

Do we have more AM feats of durability that contradicts those two?

 

[Greenshifter]

Agree with Firestorm.

Wow that's a surprise. You sure?

 

[Greenshifter]

Also Jared's looking for feats so maybe give him a little time.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Do we have more AM feats of durability that contradicts those two?

Well, trading blows with Monitor for who knows how long?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the input.

It seems like we should go with Firestorm's solution then.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Wait Firestorm mentioned something about Supergirl going through something called the Solar Collector and absorbing it's energy correct? If this solar thing is like something for sunlight and Supergirl was amped by it, that could explain why Supergirl was able to harm him since we have seen that substantial sunlight can amp by Kryptonians to absurd levels like Superman punching the World Forger.
If I'm wrong about this, I apologize that's just from my observation anyway

 

[Firestorm808]

@The_Unknown_Warrior1

Supergirl severely broke the armor prior to destroying the solar collector.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

@The_Unknown_Warrior1

Supergirl severely broke the armor prior to destroying the solar collector.

That's fair, though isn't the armor itself not as durable as AM himself is?

 

[Jared1111]

Thank you for the input.

It seems like we should go with Firestorm's solution then.

I mean no disrespect, but i am trying to finish up my argument for the Anti Monitor/Monitor keeping his 2-A stats Can we not go through with a solution until i've at least made my case, it will be finished soon.

 

[Firestorm808]

That's fair, though isn't the armor itself not as durable as AM himself is?

When was that said?

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

That's what I was asking, though if base AM is consistenly 2-C I don't mind