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It's still there. The Void abilities are separate now.
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And Thus a New Shitsorm Was Born: Nasuverse Massive Speed Revisions
- Thread starter FallenMaou2234
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The profile itself seems good to me do we have to add it back??
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Yes, Powers and Abilities: <tabber> |-|Base=
i don't think this is normal.
i don't think this is normal.
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Yeah I'll do that
Edit:Sorry I'll actully be real busy for the next 3 hours @HyperZero95 could I ask you to handle it if its urgent however if it's not I'll make sure to fix it when 8m back
Edit: Sorry ended up being less busy than expected so I patched the page
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wrong. and this is the anime adaption that massively contradicts the VN. Rin had speed equal to Saber and by extension Archer.If you mean before the power creep; doesn't matter as it is consistent. If you mean after the power creep; minor inconsistencies due to retcon doesn't matter.
Also, spellcaster mercenaries treat their guns and bullets with Magecraft and can typically use Reinforcement, so even your claim is doubtful.
Nope; keeping up in combat speed is reserved for the elite Magi, which most Masters aren't.
that isn't a minor inconsistency.
which is contradicted by his own works and rectonned later. so until we see Servants have a mountain of lightning timing feats, physically destroying Nrvnqsr, which is at least continent level, and surviving moons being slammed into them, no they don't scale at all.
i already know this.
again, this is contradicted by a mountain of evidence.
light speed with authority hax and Holmes had to predict him.
and i have demonstrated plenty.
even if we do not consider it hyperbole, it is an extreme outlier.
the pattern is in the speed of sound range 90% of the time and you have refuted none of it by bringing up outliers that are few and far between.
MHS relies on statements that are contradicted in the same novels, making them hyperbole.
anything in this range is the most uncommon in Fate.
Nasu doesn't know what he's talking about half the time due to how much stuff he has to keep up with and also never mentioned Servants being power creeped.
lower end Servants with low agility probably are subsonic.
which goes against the vast majority of Fate. and since most Fate series are still canon to GO, you can't just reasonably ignore them.
@FallenMaou2234 for a CRT, doesn't the majority vote have to be significant to actually pass something?
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I wouldn't know tbh cause even if you look back at the Tier 1 Revisions there was a bit of Opposition on that front as well so you're better off asking a thread Moderator how that works
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Rin was never equal to saber in speed.
It's not contracted they have a mountain of lighting feat (like more than what exist in tsukihime). The other feat are only done by the highest DAA and some servant can do it so no prob (tesla NP can destroy America by ex)
This is not, the on'y evidence you use from recent work is Tomoe Arrow all the rest is about previous work who got feat rectonned because powercreep.
You don't have done except using fate zero/sn feat.
It's not an extreme outlier when many other servant have comparable feat. Like if we use your thing it's tomoe arrow speed the outlier.
The pattern is on relativist speed you only used pre powercreep feat to try to counter because you know that fgo had barely one.
Supersonic are contradict too if we use yiur arguement.
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Anyways the thing doesn't change. You use mostly fate stay night and zero feat to try to counter the argument and the new feat made by servant. Thing that get rectonned by even the author because the series got better feat in all aspect for servant. The story being cannon doesn't change that the low feat done by servant was recton and so have pratically no value now.
So now except if you show the apparently numerous feat in fgo that servant are supersonic in combat and reaction speed, nothing will change.
So now except if you show the apparently numerous feat in fgo that servant are supersonic in combat and reaction speed, nothing will change.
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with Shirou as a master, yes she is.
that's hilarious. no they don't. and you haven't even read Tsukihime.
i already mentioned other things in GO besides that. they are not rectons. they are outliers. "POWER CREEP" never referred to Servants. you do know GO has things like Beasts that would count as a power creep for Fate, right?
you mean the entire basis for Fate and the original series? apparently using that is illogical now. I've brought up Zero SN SF and GO anyways.
the power creep argument has gotten shot into the ground at this point. i'm just going to ignore you saying it at this point. repeating something that has been destroyed won't change the truth.
except these are the most consistently backed up with the most feats and statements, so it wins out. relativistic and higher has to also contend with MHS in combination with supersonic. so you're going to ignore two interpretations that vastly outnumber rel speed and higher?
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and you see this is what i was talking about that this argument will just go in circles, Servants in Go have consistent Rel feats, the other side then say no they aren't consistent because they're contradicted by these feats from earlier fate works, the other side then says nasu himself declared that he had to adjust servant power levels, the other side then says but he contradicts himself so the interviews should be discarded, then the other side says but GO has consistent Rel feats proving the veracity of the interview statement and then the process repeats itself
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GO does not have constant rel feats and has to contend with both supersonic and MHS interpretations. even subsonic with lower end Servants. all three of these things in combination horribly outweigh Rel arguments. even individually they do.
this is also why MHS at least works somewhat with current speeds, despite not being accurate because it can at least be treated as a middle ground. anything higher is just ignoring everything else to get the highest interpretation possible.
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We ought to just let individuals come here read the thread and decide which inturpretation they support
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It's Travel speed so like doesn't have anything to do with combat speed and reaction speed which is why discuted here.
They do, show me more than 20 feat with lightning speed mention in tsukihime and we retalk, most thing in tsukihime thing are scalling feat.
You only mentionned tomoe arrow and travel speed feat tho? What the other you talked about.
Nasu litteraly mentionned thing about pre fsn, and we litteraly have feat that back-up this and one more time it was not only about Beast, it's never mentionned anywhere to be just about them and he wouldn't have mentionned fsn if that was the case. And they are not outlier you don't have more than 20 time a same level of
feat being described/show as an outlier. At this point all tsukihime feat are just outlier because shiki is tell to only have Olympic level form and Nanaya shiki can only go faster than what human eyes see bruh.
Being the entire basis doesn't change a thing? Thing evolve wow you discovered a thing, should i applaude? You brought only 2/3 thing from SF whoch some of these not even performed by servant and the one with archer is litteraly tell after that he can send arrow faster.
They are not the most consistent and back up.
And the power creep was not "shot into the ground" you litteraly invent a thing never mentionned to try to explain your argument. Like the whole fact that servant can fight a some point Beast and God litteraly contradict your thing.
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Individually Supersonic cant contend with Rel because majority of those statements come from earlier works like F/Z and F/SN which were stated by the author to have been power creeped, which favours higher end interpretations from the latter end of GO because they are of greater number with the only real ones i can think of being Hessian, Tomoe arrows and Arash's arrows. With the same argument you applied in that certain things within the narrative fall apart if they aren't Rel, like how did Houksai parry attacks from sublight sped okita j, or how did Musashi save best girl or how does anyone fight holmes if they arent in those ranges
Lightning speed however is sufficiently present in later works and can contend without falling victim to the "it got power creeped" argument though
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It is too complicated at this point. Somebody needs to write a post with proper but easy to understand explanations of everything that needs to be evaluated first.
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Also it does seem like things are getting a little heated so lets calm it down a little bit @Regidian @CrystalValley
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is that something i should put in a new thread or I can just summarize all the key points made by both sides in this thread??
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Medea couldn't even stop her in time and got the crap knocked out of her. if she was relativistic and Rin was beneath Kirei, no amount of getting caught off guard would've allowed Medea to get hit by Rin.
i suggest you not make arguments on things you have zero knowledge on.
that didn't end so well now did it? and there's even more. and unlike Fate which relies massively on hyperbolic statements contradicted massively in the same series, these are on screen feats that don't have contradictions let alone a massive amount.
Tsukihime feats dwarf Fate consistently. Fate's best chance for MHS or even LS is trying to scale to them and Mahou, not the other way around. pre-Fate Nasuverse has MHS and LS speed feats and several things in the continental and moon ranges with feats from Angel Notes, Melty Blood and Mahou.
Arash NP and Servants not being able to destroy an army of humans quick enough before they cause severe causalities to Nero's side.
he didn't specifically mention beasts but he didn't mention Servants. using a vague statement to argue for power creep just doesn't work.
like i said, you clearly haven't read Tsukihime or know anything about it. Tohno while dying cut through lightning at point blank and Nanaya moved faster than the eyes of someone that's above the strongest True Ancestor. that's not the same as moving faster than the human eye.
almost the entire series is consistently around the level that a lot of us here have presented. I even mentioned Hollow Ataraxia
that makes Beasts and Gods unimpressive in speed without authority. and for the upgrades, you can't even use that argument since they have immeasurable speed on this site.
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i am calm, but he's acting smug and sarcastic, so i responded with a bit of my own but more tame. but i'm not angry.
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So currently the things that are being proposed:
-Relativistic combat and movment speed with FTL reactions based on the calc in the OP
based on feats such as
-Katsushika Houkusai blocking attacks from Okita j. Souji who is stated to have a jetpack that allows her to travel at sub light speed
-Sigurd and every other servant who has ever fought Sherlock Holmes who possesses a Mystic Code that fires beams of natural sunlight
-Musashi intercepting Castor who was moving at SOL
-Santa Karna being stated to punch at speeds exceeding the speed of light in his skill materials
-Hessian Lobo dodging an attack in a microsecond and then a second trap even faster than that
-Saber and Diarmud being stated to be approaching the speed of light in their battle in the F/Z novel
-Achilles' chariot being stated to move at LS within its description in his materials
which is further consolidated by this:
Takeuchi: Also, not something we can bring to the forefront, but we updated the order of the Dead Apostle Ancestors.
Nasu: Back when we established the abilities of the 27 Ancestors, we thought having a cetrain levl of power was enough to make one a top ranker among Dead Apostles. But, judging our dear members of the 27 Ancestors by the post-Fate/stay Night Kinoko Fantasy standards, the ones who are just "relatively amazing" will have to leave... In our current era, having decent strength and abilities doesn't cut for someone trying to call themself a Dead Apostle Ancestor. I'm sorry, better luck next incarnation!
The world of Dead Apostle is in a tough fight for survival...
Nasu: Taking TsukiR's final destination into consideration, I organized which members needed to be laid off, which new members needed to be added, and which pre-existing members needed to be upgraded. That said, it's already been 10 years since I came up with the new Dead Apostle Ancestore lore, so now I regret not having made them a bit stronger.
Yeah, FGO has a series of world-threatening enemies, so the Dead Apostle Ancestors could feel lacking if strong enough in comparison.
Nasu: FGO introduced a lot of new lore. But FGO's scale is only that large because TsukiR was produced first and laid that groundwork. Without TsukiR, FGO would have ended as a much smaller story. In that sense, pausing TsukiR's production to produce FGO paid off, and we'll get the brand new experience of seeing people learning what those plot points they've seen in FGO were about.
which is an Interview by Nasu Kinoko the main author of Fate saying that he has adjusted the power levels of the franchise as a whole after FSN which supports the interpretation
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this is what needs to be evaluated currently before we can conclude this thread
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Thank you.
@JustSomeWeirdo @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @Moritzva @Everything12 @Duedate8898
Would any of you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?
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@Antvasima counterarguments include the vast majority of feats being in the supersonic ranges and potentially even lower due to numerous characters of this tier struggling with bullets and many other feats and statements.
the opposition argues this should all be ignored due to a vague power creep statement from the author that never specifically mentioned the characters in question here.
the older series are canon still and the series with these high end feats also have those same low ends is a counterargument to that.
one could argue their current ratings of MHS are a good middle ground between supersonic and relativistic or higher.
the rest has just been people throwing feats at each other and cycling debating points and trying to argue which feats are more consistent and trying to reconcile low ends and high ends in their own ways and discussing who scales to who.
i know you asked Maou, but I was just throwing in the summary of the opposition here to sum up everything.
the opposition argues this should all be ignored due to a vague power creep statement from the author that never specifically mentioned the characters in question here.
the older series are canon still and the series with these high end feats also have those same low ends is a counterargument to that.
one could argue their current ratings of MHS are a good middle ground between supersonic and relativistic or higher.
the rest has just been people throwing feats at each other and cycling debating points and trying to argue which feats are more consistent and trying to reconcile low ends and high ends in their own ways and discussing who scales to who.
i know you asked Maou, but I was just throwing in the summary of the opposition here to sum up everything.
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Personally, don't want to try and assist with this. Fate is a series which I've just never really understood in terms of scaling and how it should go, so I don't feel confident in being able to give proper input in how this should all go.
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i was actually in the middle of writing this up, thanks for saving me an extra 5 minutes scowering the thread
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Btw kinda random, but Shiki's profile is fine now.
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Yeah I ended up fixing it wasn't as busy as I thought I was gonna be
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The VN which prologue has Archer and Lancer fighting FTE from Rin's perspective?
Also changes don't matter as adaptions are effectively a parallel timeline (even Fate/Zero canonically contradicts the VN). The Anime adaptation supervised by Nasu, and he explained the lore behind a number of changes, such as the implications of Archer's Caladbolg successfully killing Berserker, and details behind Caster creating something similar to a Reality Marble on the bridge.
In the site Rin's strengthening for a few seconds is considered something she did with her spare jewels.
A detail about a fight rather than something impactful to the plot and the end-result of events is minor.
That sort of stuff gets power creeped away.
Ironically, those Tsukihimate feats scale to Servants. Do you agree that Fate has lightning timing? And what number would you say is a good number of lightning timing feats?
So you are essentially saying that Nrvnqsr powered-up form is as strong as the average DAA, and therefore the statement is contradictory? If not then I don't see how he is relevant if he falls under the tougher DAA or hour he makes a contradiction.
IDK, but the moon dropped in the Reality Marble is looking mountain sized, so an accurate description would be: mountain sized meteor shaped as a miniature moon.
You said the statement was retconned. Can you identify the retcon and the context behind it?
So you agree that Castor did indeed move at light speed, and Musashi was able to move her body and intercept this charge after being warned by Holmes.
Then you should have no problem producing several time the statements and feats from recent works (i.e. newer than 10 years) that limits the combat speed to around the speed of sound (and not just merely mention that something reached the speed of sound).
He has multiple people helping him supervise the lore, though I don't think many share your distrust in Nasu and his knowledge about his world.
He mentioned raising the power levels of Tsukihime to match Fate. He also told the author of Fate/strange Fake to just follow his instructions when he objected to Enkidu power levels, while acknowledging the existence of power level inflation and mentioning that writing something shrinking won't make anyone happy.
| In any case, I got strong encouragement from Nasu-san when drafting the plot: “I’ll deal with any amount of inflation on my end! In fact, writing something timid and shrinking like that won’t make anyone happy, so stop it, boy!” That put my fears to rest. ~strange/Fake Volume 2 Afterword |
You realize that I am talking about feats and not just statements, and that the feats don't just come from novels, right?
Then you have quite the hill to climb as you need to shatter Servant stat equalization currently used in the site.
Recognizing and acknowledging power creep is harmonization, which implies acknowledging the feats in question.
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His page say that he's MHS with mantra Boosts due to keeping up with true assassin so yes his page does say his combat speed is at that level which makes no sense as even in his prime with command seals he can't dodge a bullet shot from Kiritsugu contender and we know how fast his bullet was moving at the novel clearly said how fast it is
Which is not even close to MHS if Kirei is MHS with command seals then he should easily be able to dodge this bullet
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yet masters can see Servants and command them. FTE clearly isn't constant.
adaptions even if canon are overshadowed by the original source material whenever they clash.
but she was keeping up with Caster before that. are you saying her jewels amp her from supersonic to relativistic? why didn't she just use that from the start then?
they don't because they have too many anti feats.
i have never seen on screen lightning timing or anything that couldn't be aim dodging.
when they start overshadowing the lower end statements in both consistency quantity and detail.
i clearly have stated Nrvnqsr is one of the best even among the elite. but Nasu Servant comparisons to DAAs included all 27 in a general comparison.
that ability is canonically creating a mirror replica of the moon. not everything in fiction is drawn to size, like how you'll see the moon be vastly bigger than our real moon randomly in both Melty Blood and Tsukihime. but that is Type-Moon's moon drop which creates a mirror replica of the moon. that reality marble and piece of land has an unknown size to it. and again people have physically destroyed Nrvnqsr, which would at the very least require continental force.
the Servant comparison is contradicted by feats from his own works and even from a lore perspective, since most of the Tsukihime cast can fight Arcueid, who is the strongest True Ancestor above Demon Lords that are above normal True Ancestors that are vastly above average DAAs. later things include some Melty Blood feats like Roa's lightning feats and the moon drop from the manga. though that canonically existed in the original game in 2002 as well.
i said it being light speed was put into question, but even if we do accept it, she needed help predicting it and its an outlier at worst.
this is such an arbitrary standard that makes no sense and isn't grounded in reasoning at all. i've already mentioned three from GO. here's two more even.
Mash also wasn't used to handling bullets from mechs made with magecraft.
what are you talking about exactly? what do you mean by stat equalization on this site for Servants? i don't follow. FYI I'm not even here to downgrade them even though they should be. i'm just here to stop further speed upgrades on this thread.
the power creep argument has been shot down already.
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First she does specifically say that the richocheting is the main issue add on top of that the small space plus the fact that they were fired by Helters and Nightingale doesn't make this much of an Anti-Feat and additionally this is before Mashu-Sama got her Ascension which amped her so much she was able to Solo Saberlot so it doesn't even matter.this is such an arbitrary standard that makes no sense and isn't grounded in reasoning at all. i've already mentioned three from GO. here's two more even.
Mash also wasn't used to handling bullets from mechs made with magecraft.
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On what grounds exactly?? I don't think anything was agreed on that front
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+ the little fact those bullets are from a servant, and should scale as such.
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In the first place the Nightingale scene was more than Likely intended for comedic effect you know Nightingale being a thoughtless airhead or some such rather than it seriously being a problem but that's just my interpretation
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I don't think it was really intended for comedic effect, since Nightingale just before and after in the same singularity proved she is trigger happy and reckless
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