And Thus a New Shitsorm Was Born: Nasuverse Massive Speed Revisions

[John985]

I edited my post, where they mention FGO.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

said power creep never even references Servants, meaning it could just be referring to the setting of GO as a whole with Beasts and Gods and whatnot.

But why does "setting of FGO as a whole" includes everything but servant speed tho he referred to Post-FSN in general meaning we should apply it to everything that seems to be more impressive than showings Pre-FSN

 

[Regidian]

it can be replicated. it being used just results in the death of someone that doesn't have high enough magical energy to handle it, but it can still be replicated.

Tsukihime speed feats do not have low end anti feats, especially not in the majority like Fate. give me some evidence.

The beginning when shiki killed arcueid? He was not much higher in speed than human. And in term of travel speed like you like to use shiki is a whole thing by himself lol

 

[CrystalValley]

But why does "setting of FGO as a whole" includes everything but servant speed tho he referred to Post-FSN in general meaning we should apply it to everything that seems to be more impressive than showings Pre-FSN

massive evidence goes against Servant speed being its current rating, let alone higher. assuming he's talking about Servants when he doesn't mention them at all and they still have those same low ends in GO is just complete assumption that falls into unlikely. it's certainly not an argument to dismiss the rest of the Fate franchise because of such a vague and already lacking in credibility statement.

 

[John985]

and the Remake's showings are actually much lower than the original Tsukihime massively as of right now.

Calvaria's Star
A halo deployed in the stratosphere, blazing with focused sunlight.

A reflector created with magecraft. The 50km long, 10km wide blade of light beaming towards the surface can be compared to an aurora possessing mass, or a guillotine of light. It is High Thaumaturgy that Ciel came up with after defeating the Ancestor who was her sword mentor; apparently she uses his Idea Blood to initiate it.

After firing at full power against Arcueid the remaining magical energy was used to launch one last shot, and it was this move that turned the tables in the endgame.

Another lightspeed statement.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

massive evidence goes against Servant speed being its current rating, let alone higher. assuming he's talking about Servants when he doesn't mention them at all and they still have those same low ends in GO is just complete assumption that falls into unlikely. it's certainly not an argument to dismiss the rest of the Fate franchise because of such a vague and already lacking in credibility statement.

Massive evidence which again primarily comes from Pre-FSN showings, which he specifically implied aren't as impressive as those that we have now seeing as he explicitly says "Post FSN".....so I really don't know about lacking in credibility here

 

[CrystalValley]

The beginning when shiki killed arcueid? It was not much higher in speed than human

what? he killed her faster than she could react. and she can react to lightning from Roa with zero difficulty. he cut her into seventeen pieces before she could react and under a second.

And in the original most of DAA were weak as hell except the higher one.

we never really saw any average DAA except for the best of the best in the original Tsukihime canon. Nrvnqsr Wallachia Einnashe etc were all stated to be some of the strongest ones, especially Nrvnqsr.

Like lol many of them got killed by the church....

the Burial Agency in the Tsukihime Worlds are actually insane. Ciel is considered to be on the lower end of the Burial Agency even during Talk and Prelude, but can fight people who can fight Arcueid in Melty Blood.

You like compare the feat of the best DAA in original with the one in remake that are tell to be like some of the weakest one

Nasu mentioned the 27 as a whole. and I was actually comparing them to the Remake as a whole including Red Arcueid. and when were those DAAs stated to be the weakest? especially Vlov?

@John985 Another lightspeed statement.

you mean the prep time attack that was compared to Excalibur? or am i misremembering this for something else? lol

Aoko also has a light speed feat from Mahou that you can scale the original Tsukihime to. but considering it's just one feat (despite being on screen) and generally we see the majority of feats come from lightning attacks, it shouldn't be used because that's not really reasonable. you all need to stop aiming at these extreme high ends that virtually every Nasu series can use if you ignore everything else.

 

[Regidian]

what? he killed her faster than she could react. and she can react to lightning from Roa with zero difficulty. he cut her into seventeen pieces before she could react and under a second.

we never really saw any average DAA except for the best of the best in the original Tsukihime canon. Nrvnqsr Wallachia Einnashe etc were all stated to be some of the strongest ones, especially Nrvnqsr.

the Burial Agency in the Tsukihime Worlds are actually insane. Ciel is considered to be on the lower end of the Burial Agency even during Talk and Prelude, but can fight people who can fight Arcueid in Melty Blood.

Nasu mentioned the 27 as a whole. and I was actually comparing them to the Remake as a whole including Red Arcueid. and when were those DAAs stated to be the weakest? especially Vlov?

you mean the prep time attack that was compared to Excalibur? or am i misremembering this for something else? lol

Aoko also has a light speed feat from Mahou that you can scale the original Tsukihime to. but considering it's just one feat (despite being on screen) and generally we see the majority of feats come from lightning attacks, it shouldn't be used because that's not really reasonable. you all need to stop aiming at these extreme high ends that virtually every Nasu series can use if you ignore everything else.

It would be a counter feat for her no a feat for him lol, he was not much higher than huma' at this time. And cut seventeen piece under a second is not a great feat.

Normal all of the average was pretty much killed in original by some human and church guy. While in remake the same burial agency doesn't have the power to kill them.

Vlov is ranked 19 you know ? And he his only stage VI. Even arcueid tell he weaker than stage VII DA even as an ancestor
For red arceuid she have better feat tho.

 

[CrystalValley]

It would be a counter feat for her no a feat for him lol, he was not much higher than huma' at this time. And cut seventeen piece under a second is not a great feat.

"under a second" is a vague time frame just to describe the quickness in a general sense. he cut someone into seventeen pieces who is massively above lightning timers. no amount of mental gymnastics undermines this feat.

Normal all of the average was pretty much killed in original by some human and church guy.

what? the Burial Agency of original Tsukihime Worlds going off what Ciel has done can contend with True Ancestors. they are not something to be messed with.

Vlov is ranked 19 you know ?

you do know that the 27 Ancestor numbers are not ranked in terms of a linear hierarchy of power, right? the only thing with numbers is that any of them rated in the 10 range are hard to kill by conventional means. or is there Remake side material that changes this that I am not aware of?

And he his only stage VI. Even arcueid tell he weaker than stage VII DA even as an ancestor

that doesn't really qualify as weakest to my memory still.

For red arceuid she have better feat tho.

better feats than who?

 

[HyperZero95]

It would be a counter feat for her no a feat for him lol, he was not much higher than huma' at this time.

? He was in Nanaya superhuman demon slayer mode.

 

[Regidian]

"under a second" is a vague time frame just to describe the quickness in a general sense. he cut someone into seventeen pieces who is massively above lightning timers. no amount of mental gymnastics undermines this feat.

what? the Burial Agency going off what Ciel has done can contend with True Ancestors. they are not something to be messed with.

you do know that the 27 Ancestor numbers are not ranked in terms of a linear hierarchy of power, right? or is there Remake side material that changes this?

that doesn't really qualify as weakest to my memory still.

better feats than who?

It does because at this state he was not this much above human.

Doesn't tell the contrary ? But not all DAA was killed by burial agency.

Vlov is a stage VI DAA which is quite lower than all the DAA because normaly you become DAA after passing higher than Stage VII in power as a DA. Which mean he weaker than DA having just principle to him, and his principle is what giving his rank. He's still called a lesser DA by other. So i mean he really know to be weak as a DAA.

 

[HyperZero95]

It does because at this state he was not this much above human.

He is. He was tapping into his Nanaya instincts which are superhuman.

 

[Regidian]

? He was in Nanaya superhuman demon slayer mode.

Yeah but i mean doesn't some of nanaya feat is just being higher in speed than the eyes can see ?

 

[CrystalValley]

It does because at this state he was not this much above human.

the guy that is vastly above the entire cast of Tsukihime in speed, excluding Archetype-Earth is "not that much above human level"? well... to put it simply, no. Nanaya has proven to be entirely untouchable to the entire cast of Tsukihime when operating at his peak in his true form. even his Wallachia Tatari self toyed with Melty Blood Arcueid and his real self stomped an Akiha surpassing full power 100% Red Arcueid while he was rapidly dying. aside from Archetype-Earth, that is literally the last character you could possibly try and use for low balls.

Doesn't tell the contrary ? But not all DAA was killed by burial agency.

because DAAs stay in the shadows mostly.

Vlov is a stage VI DAA which is quite lower than all the DAA because normaly you become DAA after passing higher than Stage VII in power as a DA. Which mean he weaker than DA having just principle to him, and his principle is what giving his rank. He's still called a lesser DA by other. So i mean he really know to be weak as a DAA.

how big are the gaps between stages?

 

[HyperZero95]

Yeah but i mean doesn't some of nanaya feat is just being higher in speed than the eyes can see ?

Yes, but from the perspective of full power Akiha aka one of the god tiers of Tsukihime, who is well above lightning speed.

 

[MrBallins]

Another lightspeed statement.

It's a blade of light, not a beam of light. Just because something is made of light does not mean that it is LS

Moreover, it is only an FTL feat if you dodge an LS attack point blank

If were talking Prisma Movie/Third Season Shirou and Maybe HF Shirou then he just blatantly Scales to Servants post FGO inception

Prisma stuff does not scale to anything else

if their Speed stat is D or higher.

AGI does not govern only speed, it governs several other things as well. Mozart has A Rank AGI but he is not blitzing anyone

Like even if you wanted to make a downgraded crt for the speed it would have the same problem than you have with this one, which is the different range of feat, the thing is the recent one goes more higher than the one in fsn/zero.

Bruh, Tomoe's arrows are stated to be only Mach 1. There are still tons of anti-feats for speed

The Avenger Of Shinjuku is able to react to a trap, which Da Vinci said would require few microseconds to react to. It then reacts to the second trap much faster than the first trap a stated by Mash.

Da Vinci also knew that the traps would fail because Lobo cannot be caught until his mate is put into danger. This was a matter of conceptual shenanigans

And yes yes Mashu-Sama did however we know that one she isn't a normal human and two that her sheild is capable of such things as shown when she defended against Goetias Noble Phantsam Ars Almadel Salomonis which are stated to be beams of light with her sheild.

This is a pretty big reach here

AAS does not really behave like light at all. It's meant to store energy in the first place, so I doubt that it is "light" in anything other than appearance and name

castor attacks mashu, but musashi blocks

*with assistance from Holmes

That aside, I am gonna disagree with the speed updates

 

[FallenMaou2234]

It's a blade of light, not a beam of light. Just because something is made of light does not mean that it is LS

Moreover, it is only an FTL feat if you dodge an LS attack point blank

Prisma stuff does not scale to anything else

AGI does not govern only speed, it governs several other things as well. Mozart has A Rank AGI but he is not blitzing anyone


Bruh, Tomoe's arrows are stated to be only Mach 1. There are still tons of anti-feats for speed



Da Vinci also knew that the traps would fail because Lobo cannot be caught until his mate is put into danger. This was a matter of conceptual shenanigans


This is a pretty big reach here

AAS does not really behave like light at all. It's meant to store energy in the first place, so I doubt that it is "light" in anything other than appearance and name


*with assistance from Holmes

That aside, I am gonna disagree with the speed updates

Alright then thanks for the input

 

[FallenMaou2234]

*with assistance from Holmes

Was told than an attack was coming by holmes and then intercepted it what's crucial for that feat is that Castor attacked before Musashi moved which indicates that yeah Holmes told her the attack was coming but if she was only Supersonic even if she was told she'd never be able to react

Da Vinci also knew that the traps would fail because Lobo cannot be caught until his mate is put into danger. This was a matter of conceptual shenanigans

Even if she knew the were going to fault it Still doesn't change the fact that he dodged them in a microsecond

AGI does not govern only speed, it governs several other things as well. Mozart has A Rank AGI but he is not blitzing anyone

I actually agree that stats are really wonky half the time when I comes to actual showings and I said that in this thread but that's the way they do it on this site so I'll suck it up for now seeing as how to my knowledge we lack alternatives

 

[Regidian]

how big are the gaps between stages?

Don't know sadly

 

[FallenMaou2234]

It's a blade of light, not a beam of light. Just because something is made of light does not mean that it is LS

I don't know a giant reflector that focuses natural sunlight seems like it'd be LS......

 

[MrBallins]

Was told than an attack was coming by holmes and then intercepted it what's crucial for that feat is that Castor attacked before Musashi moved which indicates that yeah Holmes told her the attack was coming but if she was only Supersonic even if she was told she'd never be able to react

She herself says that she would have been unable to counter it without him

Even if she knew the were going to fault it Still doesn't change the fact that he dodged them in a microsecond

She knew that it would fail because he cannot be caught no matter what with the first two traps before his mate is threatened. It was a matter of concepts, something which plays a super crucial part in the entirety of Shinjuku

 

[FallenMaou2234]

She herself says that she would have been unable to counter it without him

Yeah because she wouldn't have known that, the attack was coming

She knew that it would fail because he cannot be caught no matter what with the first two traps before his mate is threatened. It was a matter of concepts, something which plays a super crucial part in the entirety of Shinjuku

But he still dodged the trap in a microsecond no???

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Anyways from here I think that anymore arguing would be pretty redundant cause it's clearly gone in circles

Servants should have Rel Movment speed plus FTL reactions>>No they shouldn't (insert anti-feats primarily from F/Z and F/SN)>>>Theyve been power creeped (insert nasu interview statment)and therefore the showings are more consistent>>>But Nasu's statments can be ignored because they aren't always accurate>>>but they have feats which proves his statment was accurate........

and theeeeen the cycle repeates itself

So I think I'll just be counting votes from here on

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree with the speed upgrade

 

[RanaProGamer]

Anyways from here I think that anymore arguing would be pretty redundant cause it's clearly gone in circles

Servants should have Rel Movment speed plus FTL reactions>>No they shouldn't (insert anti-feats primarily from F/Z and F/SN)>>>Theyve been power creeped (insert nasu interview statment)and therefore the showings are more consistent>>>But Nasu's statments can be ignored because they aren't always accurate>>>but they have feats which proves his statment was accurate........

and theeeeen the cycle repeates itself

So I think I'll just be counting votes from here on

I think you should ask Ant if that's acceptable, or maybe a knowledgeable staff member.

 

[Harith0cell]

I agree with everything, disagree with speed upgrade.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

but his guns aren't.

If you mean before the power creep; doesn't matter as it is consistent. If you mean after the power creep; minor inconsistencies due to retcon doesn't matter.
Also, spellcaster mercenaries treat their guns and bullets with Magecraft and can typically use Reinforcement, so even your claim is doubtful.

pretty much all magi can keep up with Servants in speed to some extent. them not standing a chance in most situations was almost never due to speed.

Nope; keeping up in combat speed is reserved for the elite Magi, which most Masters aren't.

Fate does not scale to either of these series, since feats and later showings dwarf Servants, like consistent lightning timing and mid-tier Tsukihime/Melty Blood characters shrugging off moons getting slammed into them and physically destroying Nrvnqsr, with 510 of his lives requiring the power to obliterate a continent let alone all 666 or the 999th beast. at most you could make the argument that normal DAAs are far weaker than the ones we see in Tsukihime, since those are some of the strongest even among the elite like Wallachia and Nrvnqsr, but even that is iffy. Fate has too many low showings that are consistent to where the story relies off them to scale them to their much more powerful and faster predecessors that actually stay largely consistent.

The author himself scaled them, so...

Q: Who'd win if the Servants and the 27 Ancestors fought each other? Also, who'd win in a fight between Bazett, a renowned powerhouse of the Association, and Ciel, top class in even the Association? A: Depends on compatibility, but basically Servants will have the slightly higher advantage. With Saber, Lancer, and Archer classes, we ought to be able to relax and see decent fights. In particular, Saber has THAT sort of Noble Phantasms so against guys like the 27 Ancestors that overwhelm by material quantity and alienness, she'd be REALLY tough. ....Well, there are also some of those tough Ancestors that can withstand a direct hit from Excalibur-class attacks, but against those guys that just (emphasis on just; other stats don't match up) have wickedly high HP, Lancer-aniki'd be pretty tough.

Note that the power levels of the DAA is not equal. Most would be fodder to ORT for example.

assuming a beam in fiction automatically equals light speed just doesn't work and makes so many fictions fall apart due to that line of thinking. Musashi could've blocked it before the attack actually launched and the attack itself being ligh tspeed was already put into question and could be hyperbole or at worst an outlier. you cannot deny the enormous amount of feats and statements that put Servants in the supersonic ranges.

Holmes firing beams of lights from a realistic source of light (lenses) is a part of a much wider context of supporting evidence for relativistic speed, and does not compromise the main evidence so it shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum.

Are you saying that the scene happened differently from what the translation says, and that Castor was stopped before he can do any movement?
We can make absurd hypotheticals and frivolous questions about all sort of things so the strength of the counter argument must be demonstrated. The scene was far too descriptive to be a hyperbole and Castor's ability to move at light speed was explicitly confirmed. You need to refute quite a number of feats and statements for it to be an outlier; we are not talking about one or two feats, it is looking more like a pattern than an outlier.

The numerous newer feats at the MHS and relativistic range gets priority due to power creep, which Nasu himself acknowledged is happening.
There are statements that puts Servants at subsonic ranges; why not argue for it instead of supersonic?

Musashi wouldn't be fast enough to properly comprehend if something is anywhere near light speed in the first place to be a proper judge. and someone requiring authority to move at LS really shows this isn't normal.

Unless Musashi is relativistic, which is what is being argued.
Sure, but it would make relativistic common.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

I think you should ask Ant if that's acceptable, or maybe a knowledgeable staff member.

I already spoke to him and he commented on the thread saying it's alright however he also tagged a couple people who'd I'd assume are all Type-Moon knowledgables and that's who I'm really waiting on right now

 

[Antvasima]

Hello if you could unlock the pages for Ryougi Shiki and Mash Kyrielight so the changes can be applied that would be much appreciated

Neither of those pages are locked.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, have there been any new conclusions or subjects that need to be evaluated since I last posted here?

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Anyway, have there been any new conclusions or subjects that need to be evaluated since I last posted here?

Well now it seems that more people are in agreement with servant speed being passed however were waiting for the individuals you tagged to comment before concluding that this is a done deal

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Neither of those pages are locked.

Well when I tried editing Ryougi's page after switching to source editing I was unable to do so, so i assumed they were locked

 

[Antvasima]

They are not locked, no. Is your wiki account autoconfirmed by verifying your email address to Fandom and waiting 4 days for it to activate?

 

[FallenMaou2234]

They are not locked, no. Is your wiki account autoconfirmed by verifying your email address to Fandom and waiting 4 days for it to activate?

Yes it is

Edit: Nevemind I just noticed I was signed out

 

[Antvasima]

How strange. It should be possible for you to edit.

Do you have the desktop layout viewing mode enabled as well?

If so, you may need to politely ask the Fandom staff about it:

https://support.fandom.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

You should preferably mention "Question for Kirkburn:" in the title. He is extremely reliable.

 

[Kenboxx]

Yes even if they have the same name and model, guns in fiction isnt 1=1 to IRL.

This is insane you saying that Kiritsugu bullets are massively hypersonic lol here is a statement from the fight in the light novel talking about how fast the bullet Kiritsugu fired is

Kirei threw a right punch a moment before the Contender fired. His arm, having transformed into a lethal magecraft Mystic Code, carved a spiral through the air, and a tornado roared into being.

This movement became a spiral of force. Originally a defensive skill to nullify an opponent’s strike, the martial arts move was performed at a horrific speed after the prana of two Command Seals was infused into it.

The bullet left the barrel at a speed of 2500 inches per second, and was wrapped up in the spiral that moved at a divine speed. Even so, the .30-06 bullet still kept a straight path. It tore apart the Kevlar sleeve, clashing viciously with Kirei’s hardened arm, emitting alien sounds like the clash of two mill stones.\

His bullets are not massively hypersonic and the fact that Prime Kirei can't dodge them even though he's in his prime with command seals shows that Kirei is not MHS it's that simple this site has Kirei speed way to high when he's a bullet timer at best

I want everybody here to understand how fast MHS is saying someone has MHS combat speed means they fight at least at mach 100

100 times the speed of sound if Kirei could fight at that speed then Kiritsugu bullets would be useless in a fight yet that clearly not the case sense Kirei has to cover his head in order to deal with them and had to use two command seals to stop the contender bullet from killing him

Kirei in zero is Kirei at his strongest and during his fight with Kiritsugu WOG said that this was Kirei at the brightest moment in his life

Nasu: Ciel is by far more powerful. Just take her lineage into consideration, and add to that her immortality. Kirei's prowess in "Zero" was rooted in the sheer number of Command Spells at his disposal as much as it was in his obsession with Kiritsugu. Suffice to say, it was his golden age

If Kirei was MHS then dodging the bullet from the contender is what he should have done the fact he did not and had to block shows that he did not have the speed to do so

 

[Regidian]

If Kirei was MHS then dodging the bullet from the contender is what he should have done the fact he did not and had to block shows that he did not have the speed to do so

For this it was just easier to done it and kirei is not mhs he is subsonic with mhs reaction he can just react at this speed not move.

 

[HyperZero95]

Yes it is

Edit: Nevemind I just noticed I was signed out

Something weird happened with the tabber in Shiki's profile.

 

[Antvasima]

Edit: Nevemind I just noticed I was signed out

Okay. Never mind then.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Something weird happened with the tabber in Shiki's profile.

Is it gone?? Or something cause I edited it just now