A Review of the speed of Naruto (Verse)

[Nierre]

I mention Raikiri and not Shunshin because I believe Kakashi's combat speed is also calced at high end MHS+/Sub-Rel, which I don't think Shunshin affects

Fair enough yeah. Forgot it was also calced his swing speed

 

[Damage3245]

You concede to talking being a free action and then contradict your own statement by bringing up, "yeah talking is a free action but not when it's more than the amount I personally specify." When we improvise rules based on personal belief, they all loose meaning and weight and eventually become unusable, going by that logic one or two lines would also cap thousands of verses, I personally think the limit is 5 words, anything more and you're being an anti feat, then what? what is there to differentiate my standard for yours? what makes it more valid? it's essentially becomes useless so that is invalid and the rule with regards to talking being a free action stands

I don't think it's as arbitrary as being a certain amount of words being a precise cutoff where dialogue starts taking place in a realistic timeframe compared to a compressed timeframe. I tried to point out that this isn't just "a character talking in a scene where something fast is happening" scenario where it doesn't make sense for them to get out their words in so brief a time... This is an extended, multi-speaker exchange that has more going on in than just talking. This has characters coming to realizations, strategizing, and yes, communicating with each other but in a way that isn't just "a character says a line or two while dodging bullets" but actually important events taking place.

The author doesn't have to supply us a ticking clock or a timer to indicate that time is passing. Shikaku looks deep in silent contemplation. We're treated to multiple panels of the Biju Bomb in flight. The whole nature of the scene is indicating that more than just a fraction of a second is elapsing here.

Also the worst part about it? It does not cap the TBB, the world's size can be as large as it needs to be, shinobi are faster than horses, can breathe in space, the entire world is way different than ours, their planet is implied multiple times to be far larger than our own earth, as it does not have the same geography as the real earth it's not pinned down to that number, our sizes are as you said a few thousand kilometers, but these are lowballs not caps, those calculations serve to prove "x structure is at least this large" the same way any manga character can secretly be outerversal, just because we lowball things down to what is provable does not act as it's cap

"The world's sizse can be as large as it needs to be" is a cop-out answer to me. You're mixing up what is speculatively possible with what can actually be demonstrated as being an issue to what I brought up. That panel from Boruto doesn't imply the world is any larger than Earth, nor does the planet having differently shaped landmasses say anything about its size.

Unless you're advocating for removing the calcs where we depend on the planet's size being identical to our own Earth, or Naruto's Moon being identical to our own Moon, then it seems to be a matter of picking and choosing arbitrarily when the size of the planet matters. If the planet is Earth-like for all those other calcs, then as far as our profiles are concern the planet is also Earth-like when the Juubi's feat takes place.

Even if you were right, and the planet is larger than Earth, it's still absolutely near as big as should be to accept the significant travel time of the Biju Bomb if it was meant to be remotely FTL.

• The Naruto Planet is far richer when it comes to raw chakra compared to other planets, characters like Momoshiki who have devoured countless planets marvel at the sheer chakra produced by earth, his excitement and lust for feeding off of earth implying it's way larger and resourceful than the average planet

This is completely unrelated to size; nowhere has it been suggested the amount of chakra is proportional to the size of the planet.

• Not only do that, Earth's mass was so large it was causing cracks near the space, the spacetime curvature was stated 16, a established value for abnormalities, essentially a rare kind of world as though naruto's earth is a shiny pokemon to them

I've read the translated section you've linked and again nowhere does it say that the spacetime curvature is caused by the sheer size or mass of the planet. It says this:

"In Kaguya's world, I observed significant tears. The space curvature has broken 16."

Which seems to indicate that the curvature has changed somehow if is has now "broken 16", something that it hadn't done before.

• The Naruto planet also was so immensely large, Hagoromo and Hamura were able to collect enough debris from it to end up being able to shape the moon itself, for it to be a fully functioning planet after giving birth to a whole ass celestial object makes it irrefutably larger than our world by not needing its moon to be born out of collision from other celestial objects and it stays larger due to the things I listed prior as well as the next point

This doesn't suggest the planet is immensely large; in the real world the mass of our own Moon is just 1.2% of the Earth's. All this means is that Naruto's Earth would've roughly been about 1.2% bigger prior to the seal being made.

• Also let's use calculations if you wanna go that route, Damage's argument is only valid if the distances have a confirmed cap which is only possible if the naruto planet and earth are 1:1, after reviewing various calculations for the konoha-suna stuff I arrive at a distance of 6336km, it is inline with what Damage suggested which is a few thousand kilometers right? Now I want to help you understand how huge that is visually, Konoha-Suna, in the real world this is how big the distance would be, when overlapped together we get this and this, as you can see that is massive, a country in naruto is as big as entire continents and then we have countries much larger than that which is part of one super continent which is a part of four super continents. Needless to say there should be no question that it is far beyond the earth and you cannot use distances to cap them because those values are derived instead of stated.

Again, just suggesting how big Naruto's Earth could be doesn't address the actual issue which is the portrayal of an extended timeframe here. Even if Naruto's Earth is as big as you say, which we don't currently accept on the wiki, that doesn't invalidate the issues automatically. That isn't fixed at all even if you up the distance from 700 km to 6336 km.

Yeah no we're not doing this, Databooks are law and have been accepted for usage on a case by case basis for years, attempts at discrediting the databooks have been rejected in the past, you cannot use one line you intentionally misinterpret to discredit the rest when those aren't faulty, still disagree with databooks? Go make a CRT to have them removed as it's affecting a huge section of the verse, if you don't wish to make a CRT then you need to argue while accepting them as the irrefutable truth. Don't throw out points you're not willing to fully see through.

Damage was one of the first people to greenlight this being light speed in it's initial CRT, you're not supposed to decide on a material's credibility based on what wanks it allows, if it's law it is law regardless of if it allows naruto characters to enter tier 0

Is that a r/naruto link for the sasuke's databook page whining about universal temari arguments, what are we doing man
now as for whether it is the projectile or the slash, I'm pretty sure it was clarified in the original CRT, don't see the reason to keep bringing it up

As I've mentioned, I'm not aiming to completely invalidate the databooks - I just think they're less important than the primary source material.

And just because I agreed to it being lightspeed in the past doesn't mean I didn't have reservations then or issues with it now. I'm simply bringing up that there are interpretations that solve the issue of scaling.

In the original CRT, just because some people agree it is the projectile and not the slash, doesn't mean that it was necessarily clarified as such. I don't think it's as completely settled as that.

At first I had thought you wanted the subrel stuff removed but then I realised you were referring to the MHS+ calc which is gonna be soon upgraded to subrel, I am not gonna touch much on that as enough people have debunked them in the replies, I'll stick to FTL stuff but I'll say some stuff

Databooks saying x attack can't be evaded is not solid grounds for a debunk, it's job is to sell you on a coolness factor, MY INFINITE SPEED ATTACK MAKES ME IMPERCEPTIBLE!! only applies in a general sense, amaterasu cant be evaded and yet it was, what does this tell us? it just means in general it should not be evadable unless the opposition has better stats or hax,

Since so much weight is being put on the databooks here to justify Mifune's speed, then I simply brought up a different section of the databook that also has implications for speed. If you dismiss it as just "coolness factor", that's fine, but describing Mifune's sword technique as "lightspeed" is a pretty cool description too which is not suggested in the source material.

Also, "it should be not evadable unless the opposite has better stats or hax" is a sentiment I fully endorse. It's part of why I'm convinced by what I see in the source material that a substantial number of characters don't have better stats.

the people slower than kirin =/= the people getting ftl combat, sick dying blind itachi reacted and formed the susano in time so idk what the hell that is supposed to mean

Kirin is LIGHT SPEED, zetsu makes a statement for STANDARD LIGHTNING
Kirin is a F***** CHINESE DRAGON SHAPED ATTACK, what in the name of false equivalencies makes you think kirin can be equated to THAT
the mach 8089 calc assumes a height, a height that's never mentioned wth
how is this supposed to cap the verse when it didnt even blitz sick dying blind itachi? when there's no stated distance travelled?

Itachi wasn't actually blind, and while he may have been sick and dying, that's not really relevant. All him surviving the attack means is that his reaction speed allowed him to mentally trigger the switch to his Susano'o... which is helped a lot by the fact that Sasuke telegraphed the hell out of the attack, giving Itachi plenty of warning and explaining what he was doing. Sasuke even gave him a cool one-liner "Begone with the thunderclap" to let him know the moment he'd be unleashing the jutsu. Mentioning that Itachi reacted to the attack is not the great debunk of Kirin's speed being a significant factor.

Lastly, Kirin is not accepted to be lightspeed. If you believe it is, then that's fine and I won't waste posts trying to convince you otherwise but I'm arguing in the thread on the basis of what speed it has been accepted for.

I'll leave the other parts since subsequent discussion on the thread has made those parts unimportant.

Even if your interpretation is true, there are still multiple scaling avenue for his Iaido that affects other high-tier characters. FKS Sasuke and Hanzo react to it rather easily and if you’re going with the narrative that he was only LS with KN0 amp, multiple characters who were relative to him in base would end up scaling to the rating

Mifune never actually uses his Iaido on Sasuke, he just clashes swords with him after his sword is already drawn. And I think the lightspeed part only being reserved for Mifune's speed when he is using the Issen would mean that Hanzo never reacted to that.

Uh, no. This is a statement made in a fictional setting. Not something that’s based in the real world. Unless there’s something that seriously contradicts it, the literal definition takes precedence. We more or less have default interpretations for these type of statements.
“Lightning speed” figurative
“Speed of lightning” literal
“Light like speed” figurative
“Speed of light” literal
The databook could have just used one of the billion instances where characters/techniques were described as “super fast” to describe Issen. Rather than give it an actual value

I don't think this is an absolute rule where something described as the "speed of light" is always literal. Maybe you treat it as a default interpretation in cases like this, and that's fine, but I'm not convinced on that.

You can’t say “Kirin is lightning speed and it caps a lot of characters” while also mentioning False Darkness as an adjoining point. False Darkness which Kakashi outran.
We have literal academy/genin ninjas do lightning timing feats

1. Sumire (Mach 781)
2. Sarada (Mach 1117 and Mach 1314)
3. Sarada again (0.02c)
4. Sarada again (Mach 323)

Whether these calcs are accurate or not doesn’t matter. They involve bottom tier ninjas dodging/reacting to lightning without any issues. If i wanted to, there are multiple ways to scale this to Part 1 Naruto and Sasuke
And no, Shikamaru wasn’t blitzed. He reacted to it by opening a scroll. Even choji had enough time to bring his arms to his face in a defensive posture. Plus, Shikamaru hardly scales to Hidan

All of those feats you listed hadn't taken place yet at the time the statements were given; those characters didn't even exist yet. And I seriously doubt that we would scale Part 1 Naruto and Sasuke to those considering the contradictions that would ensue as a result of that.

Also, Shikamaru does currently scale to Hidan fully on his profile. Shikamaru and Choji weren't "blitzed" in the sense that they were statued by it but they were essentially helpless; if they could've dodged or outrun the jutsu with ease, as a much higher speed than it would suggest, then it doesn't make sense why their only reactions would be to stand there in a "defensive posture" or open a scroll.

Responding to these two posts first before going through the other major responses. I'd like to ask that if a huge wall of text response is planned in response to my response, then I'd like to ask that you please wait until I've gone through the major responses from MinatoSparkle & UchihaSlayer first please.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Responding to these two posts first before going through the other major responses. I'd like to ask that if a huge wall of text response is planned in response to my response, then I'd like to ask that you please wait until I've gone through the major responses from MinatoSparkle & UchihaSlayer first please.

This is rough

 

[Damage3245]

This is rough

I should've hired some goons to response to some of the other posts for me. At least there's no great rush for the thread.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I would prefer you update your proposals before continuing ANY discussions, saves everyone's time by cutting down on topics to argue with

 

[Damage3245]

I would prefer you update your proposals before continuing ANY discussions, saves everyone's time by cutting down on topics to argue with

Well said - I'll ammend the OP once I've responded to the other major response posts so we have a clearer direction on what the discussion should be on.

 

[Nierre]

bump

 

[Demon_Lord18]

bump

This is not necessary, Damage will send your response as soon as it is ready.

 

[Nierre]

The bump was meant for the updated proposals, not for a response. Just bumping as a reminder so that whenever he sees it, he can update it, and I can see exactly what's changed so I can give my opinions on what's being proposed.

 

[Damage3245]

The bump was meant for the updated proposals, not for a response. Just bumping as a reminder so that whenever he sees it, he can update it, and I can see exactly what's changed so I can give my opinions on what's being proposed.

Don't worry, it's being worked on. I'll ping staff who've commented so far when the proposals are updated.

EDIT: Sunday is the best bet.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

anyone give me a summary?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

anyone give me a summary?

It’s still under process tbh so I would suggest waiting in on asking for summaries till it’s done

However for now I’d say the last few paragraphs of OP summarises most things and then staff comments, I think the FD issues may have been dropped, some of the problems surrounding Issen seem to also have been cleared up

 

[Godernet]

anyone give me a summary?

Damage is running through the major points of contention for the speed of the Shippuden High Tiers (Jounin - Bijuu level ppl)

TL;DR

People should really read the full text above if they want to get involved in the thread, but here's the points above summarized;

• Faster Biju Bombs than Gyuki's are depicted to be significantly slower than FTL.

Slayer, Grif, and Tracer agree with Damage's points against SOL TBB due to a decently quantifiable amount of time passing for it to travel 700 KM when the Juubi fires one who should be > Gyuki.

• Mifune's flying slash is probably not lightspeed to begin with.

This one is more contentious rn but it seems a majority of staff so far have agreed it's referring to Mifune's actual sword swing being what the statement is referring to as SoL rather than the beam.

Edit: Tho Griff made a case that the Beam shouldn't be far off in speed.

• Sasuke's MHS+ Kirin is a hard cap for a good portion of the verse.

I made a comment for this one here if you wanna check it out below

But so far this one is contentious.

• The Raikage, one of the world's fastest shinobi, is implied to be slower than lightspeed, which also hard caps a good portion of the verse.

This is in reference to Mabui's jutsu which I think a majority agree likely caps anyone less durable than Base Ay from SoL and above speeds.

• The 5 second cooldown of Pain's technique is shown to be a brief window of opportunity for the characters to work around.

I think most of the people participating so far just chalked this up to an in-verse outlier due to how ludicrously inconsistent it is with lore and even Part 1 speed scaling.

• Several characters struggled to outpace an explosion created by Deidara.
• Several characters are regularly caught off guard by blinding flashes of light.

I had comments on why I found these not so convincing personally if you wanna look at those too.

Conclusions

My proposals that follow from the observations I've made above are this:

• Remove the scaling that is based upon the assumption of a lightspeed flying slash, and Killer B's attack being comparable to it.
• Remove Kakashi's Sub-Rel calc of intercepting Kakuzu's False Darkness jutsu, for contradicting the information around Kirin.

I think these are the comments to look at for more elaboration on the stances but there are some other ppl who made good points too.

Test's Comment
Griff's Comment
Slayer's Comment
Tracer's Comment
My Comment (Kirin)
My Comment (Anti-Feats Section)
Sparkle's Comment

rn we're just letting Damage take time to look over the comments to address arguments and make adjustments to his OP as needed.

And yes this is the short version.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

This one is more contentious rn but it seems a majority agree it's referring to Mifune's actual sword swing being what the statement is referring to as SoL rather than the beam.

I don't think that's the consensus?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Damage is running through the major points of contention for the speed of the Shippuden High Tiers (Jounin - Bijuu level ppl)

Thank you baba

 

[Godernet]

I don't think that's the consensus?

I meant the majority of staff that commented mb, ill rephrase it a bit in the comment.

I'm not saying that they're saying only the slash is SOL.

I'm saying that based on the verbiage of the statement, they came to the conclusion that it was talking about the physical slash and some of them also agree that it might translate to the sword beam.

Tracer: I think Issen being SoL is fine, but I am of the opinion that the statement is saying his sword stroke is what’s light speed, not the flying slash that comes from it.

Slayer: Well, it's weird, because even if we say that only the slash is lightspeed, not the beam, we're still left with a problem. FKS Sasuke matches Mifune's Iaido. And that definitely has some far-reaching scaling ramifications.
So I feel like this is one of those cases where we have to either go all in on Issen scaling and accept whatever ramifications that may have, OR we must remove it altogether for being inconsistent or whatever.

Griff: This is one of the few points I'm not really in agreement with. Now, I understand your point and will say that the interpretation is a possibility but in my opinion, it's kinda odd that they'd only be referencing the start up of the technique and not the attack itself which is a part of it. That would be it hyping up his hand movements but then he fires a massively slower technique.

 

[Godernet]

Thank you baba

I gotchu

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I agree with the Mifune stuff, outside of the literal translation saying so, his strikes are consistency treated as being a massive speed amps, they literally designed to blitz enemies before they can weave signs.

dont really agree with the mabui stuff, as im more inclined to believe this is closer to alot of other lightspeed teleportation tropes found in other sci fi works, the act of tearing and and reforming organic matter vs inorganic. so im more of the belief that its property of the jutsu more than a hard cap.

as i dont suddenly believe all the random items they transport with the ability are somehow more denser and durable than kage level fighters.

think the 5 second thing falls into general plot inconsistency in the same way a lot of characters barely escape falling debris in fiction despite the debris obviously not falling at mach gigazilla.

I think Kirin being a cap on the verse is fine conceptually but it shouldn't be limited by a fan calc it should just upscale over whatever characters it logically should.

 

[Godernet]

I agree with the Mifune stuff, outside of the literal translation saying so, his strikes are consistency treated as being a massive speed amps, they literally designed to blitz enemies before they can weave signs.
.

Do you mean you disagree with the Mifune stuff?

It sounds like you're for the statement, which the OP is against.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Do you mean you disagree with the Mifune stuff?

It sounds like you're for the statement, which the OP is against.

i agree with damage regarding the slash being physical versus the beam

 

[Godernet]

i agree with damage regarding the slash being physical versus the beam

ooh i get you now

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

i should also add why i entirely understand where @UchihaSlayer96 is coming from regarding issen and so on, i dont particularly have an issue if some characters down the line get buffed as a consequence of FKS Sasuke reacting to Mifune (idk if he used laido there or not) because i dont particularly have an issue with characters being that fast in of itself if the method of scaling is better. and i believe that reaction speed/combat speed along with the original kanji support the latter more than the light speed beam that has obvious non lightspeed travel speed.

though if issen is disregarded in general then this is moot but just wanted to add this.

 

[Testarossa002]

Tsunade's clothes were unharmed during the transfer but her body was damaged (pun intended)
I'm fine with conceding the Mabui jutsu cap here since it doesn't really affect any potential scaling but I heavily disagree with it

Also, there were 13 text boxes between when Mabui launched her jutsu to when Ay/Tsunade arrived at the battlefield
As opposed to the 16+ between Juubi's attack and the destruction of alliance HQ
Mind you, the latter covered a much longer distance
The point here is to show how authors don't really factor in talking/thinking in relation to speed

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don't think that's the consensus?

Yeah I agree with sparkle

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Also I don’t think anyone was able to answer why Tsunade was hurt prior to the transfer

If it’s truly damage dealt from speeds they can’t handle, why get hurt when you’re not moving yet, almost like taking human bodies into a jutsu for items damages them


Hence me saying no one can prove the cap exists outside the jutsu

 

[Samlex1234]

I agree with the Mifune stuff, outside of the literal translation saying so, his strikes are consistently treated as being a massive speed amps, they designed to blitz enemies before they can weave signs.

All Issen (Flash) does not have the same speed and Ap, However when kyubi Amped Mifune is using Issen only then is he striking at the speed of light to produce the attack. I believe that statement on the databook was directed toward his attack against the juubi which was the only time I believe we saw Mifune use Issen. It makes absolutely no sense for Base Mifune Issen and Amp Mifune Issen to be the same, because what then is the purpose of the Amp?

Normal Samurai’s = unknown

Base Mifune Issen speed= unknown

Amp Mifune Issen Speed= Speed of Light

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

thats just a databook comprehension issue, the images used in the databooks are used for illustrative purposes they not meant to be literally taken as being referenced in the moment unless specified, which they will specifically do by having the arrow point to the panel and describe it or it will be self evident (see the databook explaining kakashi's rock climbing during part 1 or sasuke blitzing an akatsuki member), the reason why the cloaked version of mifune is used is because its the only visual example in the manga of Mifune using it, not because its an ability only he can use while amped, because if it was it would be mentioned by the abilities description which takes precedence here.
the only reason why it even exists is a consequence old powerscaling arguments from 2014 that used it to either downplay the feat or as away to circumvent the outlier arguments of the time .

also thats ignoring the obvious logistics of the ability name being a direct reference to its speed, which is strange if the ability's function relies on a temporary amp that mifune would only gain 70 years into his life with no foreknowledge.

 

[Damage3245]

@Nierre @UchihaSlayer96 @LordGriffin1000 @DarkDragonMedeus @LordTracer

I've updated the OP of the thread, removing the more superfluous arguments and the proposal to revise the MHS+ and Sub-Rel characters. I've realized through the responses so far that I'll need more than just issues with Kirin to tackle that, so I'm deferring that indefinitely to a future thread where I can gather more calc comparisons.

The focus of this thread now is just to remove the recently added FTL scaling. I've left the relevant arguments for that up in the OP and added in a new argument where I break down why I believe it would be an outlier even without all of the issues in the OP being accepted.

Since the staff members who've commented so far had mixed support and opposals for the contents of the OP, I'd like to ask that you could vote on the more simplified proposal so we can have a clearer conensus, thank you.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Mabui's Ethereal Transmission Jutsu and the Raikage

One thing to remember is that in the general shinobi world, not counting freaks of the past like Madara and the Hashirama, the Raikage is the fastest ninja alive. Even in his base form he's regarded as super-fast, and in Lightning Chakra Mode Version 1 and Version 2, he becomes even faster. When using the Shunshin (Body Flicker Technique) in this state, he can even accomplish the nigh-impossible feat of evading Sasuke's Mangekyo Sharingan visual prowess and escaping being ignited with the Amaterasu technique which ignites at whatever Sasuke is looking at.

This is important because when it comes to Mabui's Ethereal Transmission jutsu - which can transport objects across vast distances at the speed of light - the main drawback for trying to use it on living human beings is that their bodies cannot cope with the the immense speed and they become torn apart. Only freaks like the 3rd Raikage who have unique extra-tough physiques can endure it, and Tsunade who has the ability to heal herself after travelling. This weakness is reiterated in the databook which mentions the movement being too fast unless the target has a sturdy body.

Why is this important? Because if shinobi regularly fought and moved at faster-than-light speeds, then the speed of Mabui's technique would be trivial to them. Even for the 4th Raikage, the fastest shinobi alive, Mabui states that it may be possible for the 4th Raikage to successfully travel by this technique but only because he's the 3rd Raikage's son. As his secretary, Mabui would know the 4th Raikage's abilities better than most and even she only conjectures that it may be possible for him, rather than acknowledging that he regularly moves beyond lightspeed anyway.

I don't think this should be a cap, there is something weird about it, if this jutsu is dangerous why was Raikage doing it base? Why not use his lightning cloacks? Why didn't Tsunade activated her Byakugou before the jutsu begun which would have given her better chances of survival? The databook and manga talk about tough body specifically, but we know ninjas are capable of using chakra enchancements to amp their durability, it's very likely that the problem comes from the fact while under this jutsu they aren't capable of keeping chakra amps active as such their base durability is the only thing that can protect them against the speed of light. It makes sense considering that objects can easily be transported while not having tier 7 durability.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think this should be a cap, there is something weird about it, if this jutsu is dangerous why was Raikage doing it base? Why not use his lightning cloacks? Why didn't Tsunade activated her Byakugou before the jutsu begun which would have given her better chances of survival? The databook and manga talk about tough body specifically, but we know ninjas are capable of using chakra enchancements to amp their durability, it's very likely that the problem comes from the fact while under this jutsu they aren't capable of keeping chakra amps active as such their base durability is the only thing that can protect them against the speed of light. It makes sense considering that objects can easily be transported while not having tier 7 durability.

It's possible that wearing the lightning cloak as "armor" wouldn't make a difference to the Raikage surviving the high-speed transfer or not. It's not exactly like an attacking that is bombarding him.

I don't know why Tsunade didn't activated her Byakugou beforehand... Probably would've been smart of her, but I suppose she only needed to use it after she had been damaged. If she ended up being tanky enough to withstand the transfer, then activating the Byakugou would've been unnecessary.

 

[KaydeeX]

@Damage3245 since you decided to leave the Kirin issues, at least for now, the characters who are going to have their FTL rating removed will become relativistic (0.02 x 5), or should these be handled in another thread? it’s pretty minor.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

It's possible that wearing the lightning cloak as "armor" wouldn't make a difference to the Raikage surviving the high-speed transfer or not. It's not exactly like an attacking that is bombarding him.

That pretty much means ignoring chakra enchancements anyways, and we know that the lightning cloack clearly makes them more durable, so does other cloak techniques. You are making a theory but its left very clearly that the jutsu requires strong bodies instead of talking about chakra.

I don't know why Tsunade didn't activated her Byakugou beforehand... Probably would've been smart of her, but I suppose she only needed to use it after she had been damaged. If she ended up being tanky enough to withstand the transfer, then activating the Byakugou would've been unnecessary.

what if she wasn't tanky enough and got parts of her body torn appart? What if because of that damage she died before she could activate byakugou to save herself? It's left clear that Raikage himself surviving was already an assumption, Mabui basically saw no chance for Tsunade, so Tsunade was working with the theory that she had little to no chances of surviving.

I think my point makes more sense

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage3245 since you decided to leave the Kirin issues, at least for now, the characters who are going to have their FTL rating removed will become relativistic (0.02 x 5), or should these be handled in another thread? it’s pretty minor.

Separate thread for that.

 

[KaydeeX]

Okay, i’ll make a thread to handle that after this

 

[Deceived3596]

I previously stated I would give a more in-depth explanation of my thoughts on the thread. I, however, don't have anything novel or truly important to say on the matter anymore, as other people have effectively explained what I believe in. I will say, for clarification on my position, I believe @UchihaSlayer96 post aligns mostly with what I consider to be the least contradictory-filled, and narrative consistent position to hold.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@Nierre @UchihaSlayer96 @LordGriffin1000 @DarkDragonMedeus @LordTracer

I've updated the OP of the thread, removing the more superfluous arguments and the proposal to revise the MHS+ and Sub-Rel characters. I've realized through the responses so far that I'll need more than just issues with Kirin to tackle that, so I'm deferring that indefinitely to a future thread where I can gather more calc comparisons.

The focus of this thread now is just to remove the recently added FTL scaling. I've left the relevant arguments for that up in the OP and added in a new argument where I break down why I believe it would be an outlier even without all of the issues in the OP being accepted.

Since the staff members who've commented so far had mixed support and opposals for the contents of the OP, I'd like to ask that you could vote on the more simplified proposal so we can have a clearer conensus, thank you.

I'm chilling with the fam right now but I'll give it a look when able.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Outlier Argument

I believe that even if we grant the Mifune section above, the scaling for Gyuki / Killer B still falls under the guidelines for an Outlier.


Yes. I think it's a significantly large jump; Killer B in his Biju mode was only reaching Sub-Relativistic before this new scaling. The next highest calc from comparable characters is the current Mach 7981 Kakashi calc, which is multiplied by 5 for some characters through Might Guy's Eight Gates scaling.



Yes. This is an exceptional incident; Killer B's Biju Bombs are never depicted this fast in any other scenes.



Yes. There is no explanation or justification so far as I'm aware for why Killer B's Biju Bombs would be this fast.



Yes. As explained by the above points, virtually nobody else possesses feats or statements on this level that are currently accepted. In fact characters don't properly exhibit FTL combat speed until Six Paths Sage Naruto who is just a bit above baseline FTL.



Yes. As shown by the section on the Ten-Tails Biju Bomb up above, I believe that the scaling implications from accepting Killer B's Biju Bombs to be this fast would break the narrative of the work.

1) Explicitly stated speeds and comparability to those are not outliers, if that were the case then light fang is also an outlier, I don't like the idea of picking any strong feat and trying to discredit based on them being outliers, by that logic we wouldnt really have god tier feats at all

"but god tiers are a new stage with no prior showings making it impossible for being an outlier" same for Bee, bee never shows any speed feats for you to say hes slow, he's superior to characters superior to guy's multiplied speeds, same for people scaling to light fang, this point is totally invalid, if Bee were to show like several MHS/subrel speed feats instead of piggybacking off of others it MAY have been an outlier, instead hes comparable to people that ragdoll guy in their weaker states who is above MHS

2) Cuz his TBBs never went against Mifune's attacks before?
3) why would he need justification for blatant feats? mifune is just a fodder in the verse, that's why Bee's faster, if anything should you not be saying Mifune would be outlierish not people that scale to him?

4) why is Light Fang more proper exhibition of the feat? they're both statements from the databook+bee doesnt drop feats for them to be outliers

5)you still have given 0 arguments for why juubi's TBB would be ftl, he gets combat speed not attack speed
also if we can use stated speeds and how long the characters take to traverse the lands to determine their distance, why use that method to cap the distances?
and it's still breaking the talking being a free action rule because extended conversations dont justify this, why not downgrade every verse that has a conversation then or silly outliers that the writers never think of when writing the story

 

[Samlex1234]

What is this that I'm hearing about Killer b Speed being an outlier? Isn't killer b at least comparable to Ay who is regarded as the fastest Shinobi in the world. They even have a Speed of Light speed together with double lariat . So Killer B being FTL is not outrageous in any way.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

The Mabui point isn't an issue if the people affected by that aren't going to be proposed to be FTL anyway.

Also the Mabui stuff isn't changed at all


Damage does not provide any scaling chains connected to the supposed capped people but keeps it on?
like you conceded if they're not affected it's not relevant but you still included it? Why's that, this has become irrelevant

not only that there's no counters to the presented flaws that come with interpreting it as truly speed cap

It's possible that wearing the lightning cloak as "armor" wouldn't make a difference to the Raikage surviving the high-speed transfer or not. It's not exactly like an attacking that is bombarding him.

I don't know why Tsunade didn't activated her Byakugou beforehand... Probably would've been smart of her, but I suppose she only needed to use it after she had been damaged. If she ended up being tanky enough to withstand the transfer, then activating the Byakugou would've been unnecessary.

Also possibly assumptions arent really usable when you're enforcing a cap you need explicit irrefutable material
I also have seen no answer to it being a travel speed cap as opposed to combat speed

What is this that I'm hearing about Killer b Speed being an outlier? Isn't killer b at least comparable to Ay who is regarded as the fastest Shinobi in the world. They even have a Speed of Light speed together with double lariat. So Killer B being FTL is not outrageous in any way.

Raikage is also stated to be so fast in his v1 that sasuke's sharingan cant track it (FTE movement)
the same sasuke who could perceive Haku's LS movements

it's very consistent for Naruto Mid Tiers to be FTL

 

[Damage3245]

Also the Mabui stuff isn't changed at all

Damage does not provide any scaling chains connected to the supposed capped people but keeps it on?
like you conceded if they're not affected it's not relevant but you still included it? Why's that, this has become irrelevant

not only that there's no counters to the presented flaws that come with interpreting it as truly speed cap

Didn't MinatoSparkle point out that some people would be affected such at the 4th Raikage?

Raikage is also stated to be so fast in his v1 that sasuke's sharingan cant track it (FTE movement)
the same sasuke who could perceive Haku's LS movements

it's very consistent for Naruto Mid Tiers to be FTL

Pretty sure we don't accept that for Sasuke's profile currently.