A Review of the speed of Naruto (Verse)

[KingogKings777]

• Several characters are regularly caught off guard by blinding flashes of light.

Again, my thoughts mirror US69, these would be anti-feats for movement speed, not combat speed.

Why wouldn't this one be combat speed?

 

[LordTracer]

Why wouldn't this one be combat speed?

I don’t know why you’re asking me that when US69 already explained it in his post that I was agreeing with.

 

[Samlex1234]

This is the weird standard placed upon the verse that people complain about. Why do we have mods using and accepting “Free Action“ as evidence? Something that is vastly accepted as a plot convenience tool.

“Remember that lightspeed means a projectile could circle the Earth approximately 7.5 times in one second.”

Even if we were to downgrade the Biju bombs to High Hypersonic + speed (part 1 naruto) it would have covered that distance in roughly 30 seconds, within that time frame anyone that has a speed of Mach 1282 which should be the ultimate lowball for lightning speed would have been able to save them 15 times over. Contradictions everywhere. Heck merely moving at Massively Hypersonic + you can circle the entire earth in 14 seconds. This circle the earth argument is fundamentally flawed and if we are to open this can of worms literally no verse that is rel+ and above will escape.

 

[Godernet]

Sasuke's Kirin and Lightning Jutsu

There's more to take into consideration for the verse as a whole than just the Biju Bombs. A very important technique in Sasuke's arsenal is Kirin.

Kirin has been gone over enough times in this wiki's history that I'm sure almost all Naruto fans here will be familiar with it but I'll provide an overview of it just to illustrate my point at how the speed ratings we've introduced contradict the narrative.

After exhausting his chakra on Orochimaru's substitution technique and several fireballs he fired into the sky, Sasuke reveals that he has one last technique up his sleeve despite his lack of chakra. He used the fireballs to create stormclouds above, and he's going to use them to create a technique that 'lasts an instant' and 'cannot be blocked or evaded'. Sasuke doesn't supply his own chakra to power or speed up the technique (he can't; he's out of it as confirmed by Itachi); he just takes advantage of the enormous ambigent atmospheric energy to launch a Lightning Style jutsu by harnessing natural lightning. As Sasuke himself explains, the jutsu guides the lightning striking down from the clouds at a target of Sasuke's choice; he merely directs natural lightning towards Itachi.

This is the reason why Kirin cannot be evaded, according to Zetsu. It's speed enabling it to cross the distance in 0.001 seconds.The currently accepted calculation for Kirin's speed is Mach 8089, using that timeframe from the manga.

If a Massively Hypersonic+ attack (several hundred Mach off of being Sub-Relativistic) travelling across hundreds of meters is considered to be nigh-undodgeable by not just one but two sources commenting on the speed of the technique making it impossible to evade then a few things about the way we rank speed ratings on the wiki don't make sense and directly contradict the information presented to us in the primary source of the series.

Characters like the Sannin (who Sasuke and Zetsu are more than familiar with) aren't going around fighting at FTL speed. Jutsu like the Biju Bomb (which multiple characters have blocked or evaded) doesn't make sense being FTL if an MHS+ technique is considered impossible to evade.

While it is true that Sasuke's knowledge is limited; for example he was unaware that Itachi possessed the Susano'o that he could use to block the Kirin, and he is unaware of the speed of the upper echelons like Minato who could use the Flying Thunder God technique to teleport out of the way, the statement still remains a strong barrier for the vast majority of shinobi.

Lightning speed jutsu is never considered to be a joke in the series. The databook for Kakuzu's False Darkness jutsu states "It is exceedingly difficult to dodge a lightning bolt flying at high speed." Even in the final arc of the series Madara employs realistic lightning bolts created through Yin Release to attack Naruto and Sasuke. Whilst though both Naruto and Sasuke quite capably react to it without issue, it shows that it is still a potential threat.

This is why it is very hard to accept that most characters are regularly fighting at FTL speeds, or that someone like Kakashi is over twice as fast as Kirin is. By Hidan scaling to Kakashi, and Shikamaru scaling to Hidan, we end up in a scenario where Shikamaru is actually 6.3 times faster than the attack that blitzes him. If we go with the current FTL proposals then we end up in a situation where Kakuzu is "FTL, with MHS+ attack speed", and an FTL Shikamaru was helpless as an MHS+ attack crossed dozens of meters to reach him. It is too contradictory.

Calling Kirin a cap at all suggests that Kirin has a definitive speed that we can point to for a completely objective metric of measuring how fast the bolt is.

Frankly, I never got why Light Speed Kirin was removed completely rather than made a possibly.

The 2 LS Kirin statements were in Databook and Fanbooks made to look at the jutsu in retrospect to when Zetsu gave us his initial hypothesis of what he believed Kirin would be (meaning Kishi or his editor, knowing what they had Zetsu say prior, still decided to call it "light speed" after the fact.)

I'm not saying that LS Kirin or Mach 8000 Kirin is the absolute right method, but I do feel there is enough conversation to be had on either side of the topic to say that Kirin probably doesn't have an objective speed, and if it doesn't have an objective speed, it shouldn't cap the verse either.

Also isn't it interesting that the databook entry for False Darkness highlights that it is "extremely hard to dodge lightning" (not impossible) after we see Kakashi able to move faster enough to intercept that same jutsu. The same person who was renowned for his impressive feat that we were told about 200 chapters prior of being able to cut lightning in half before it could touch the ground (granted the manga doesn't show the feat but, being able to perceive lightning and attack before it can hit the ground is still a nice bit of lore being consistent with a canon feat we are given of him moving at speeds relative to lightning in the Kakazu fight.)

Then we get Zetsu's statement chapters later, saying, "Lightning should be able to travel this distance in 1/1000th of a second; it's undodgeable like Amaterasu." Only for the databook to later say, "Kirin is light speed; it's undodgeable" twice. (not to try and say these were 100% Kishi's intentions but if that isn't closest thing to an author changing what they initially put in a manga to better fit the consistency of their story I don't know what is.)

In my opinion, there isn't any reason why the current fan calc for Kirin should be treated as an objective speed, while we completely disregard the two other statements provided because of something Zetsu said before ever seeing the technique and being skeptical of the two statements and saying "well this doesn't have to mean literal light speed", when one of the statements is almost identically translated to the issen statement, with any flowery language meant to mirror Zetsu's own words in the story of it being "unavoidable".

And it's certainly, not enough reason to completely dismiss one of the only usable speed calcs the verse has when the series already has a severe lack of calculable speed feats.

 

[KaydeeX]

As for the consistency issue Slayer brought up, there are some sub-rel Boruto feats which can be backscaled to the Sannin speed tiers. The values are very close too.

 

[Damage3245]

If all this thread ends up doing is removing the new FTL scaling for the characters and not the MHS+ or Sub-Rel scaling, I'll be content with that. Only just woke up so I'll look in greater detail at everyone's posts soon.

 

[karo_senpaii]

For the mabui stuff. All the people affected by ftl are above base Ay are they not?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

For the mabui stuff. All the people affected by ftl are above base Ay are they not?

Yes

 

[DavidTPPM]

This is the weird standard placed upon the verse that people complain about. Why do we have mods using and accepting “Free Action“ as evidence? Something that is vastly accepted as a plot convenience tool.

“Remember that lightspeed means a projectile could circle the Earth approximately 7.5 times in one second.”

Even if we were to downgrade the Biju bombs to High Hypersonic + speed (part 1 naruto) it would have covered that distance in roughly 30 seconds, within that time frame anyone that has a speed of Mach 1282 which should be the ultimate lowball for lightning speed would have been able to save them 15 times over. Contradictions everywhere. Heck merely moving at Massively Hypersonic + you can circle the entire earth in 14 seconds. This circle the earth argument is fundamentally flawed and if we are to open this can of worms literally no verse that is rel+ and above will escape.

I don’t really think the argument that we should just ignore the long distance anti feats because "well that contradicts a lot of verses" works as 2 wrongs don't make 1 right but there is something else to point out about it.

Launched projectiles lose speed over time. Unlike a flying person who can constantly accelerate, a projectile only loses speed as it travels. I can throw a ball at 80km/h but it sure as hell won't travel 1 kilometer in 45 seconds. So the Juubi tbb could have just lost speed as it traveled.

Now this would imply a pretty ridiculous deceleration rate, but given that physics do start to break near the speed of light it's not entirely impossible and hell maybe not unlikely.
And if we actually look at the angle in which the TBB was fired at the headquarters we will see the Juubi shot it upwards so it doesn't fall before reaching the target, which would mean it's both, traveling a longer curved distance, and actively being slowed down by gravity.

Now I'm not saying that the anti feat is now completely debunked or something, but the TBB most likely wouldn't have circled the earth even once because it would either fall due to gravity or stop due to losing energy anyway.

 

[Damage3245]

I don’t really think the argument that we should just ignore the long distance anti feats because "well that contradicts a lot of verses" works as 2 wrongs don't make 1 right but there is something else to point out about it.

Launched projectiles lose speed over time. Unlike a flying person who can constantly accelerate, a projectile only loses speed as it travels. I can throw a ball at 80km/h but it sure as hell won't travel 1 kilometer in 45 seconds. So the Juubi tbb could have just lost speed as it traveled.

Now this would imply a pretty ridiculous deceleration rate, but given that physics do start to break near the speed of light it's not entirely impossible and hell maybe not unlikely.
And if we actually look at the angle in which the TBB was fired at the headquarters we will see the Juubi shot it upwards so it doesn't fall before reaching the target, which would mean it's both, traveling a longer curved distance, and actively being slowed down by gravity.

Now I'm not saying that the anti feat is now completely debunked or something, but the TBB most likely wouldn't have circled the earth even once because it would either fall due to gravity or stop due to losing energy anyway.

That's an interesting point to bring up for sure, but by the same token can we not extend this hypothetical deceleration to other things too? Say for example Mifune's Issen starts off as travelling at lightspeed, but then it decelerates pretty quickly and slows down to the point where all the ranged jutsu and Killer B's Biju Bomb caught up with it...

Now, I don't believe this is actually the case but it doesn't seem any less plausible than that.

 

[DavidTPPM]

That's an interesting point to bring up for sure, but by the same token can we not extend this hypothetical deceleration to other things too? Say for example Mifune's Issen starts off as travelling at lightspeed, but then it decelerates pretty quickly and slows down to the point where all the ranged jutsu and Killer B's Biju Bomb caught up with it...

Now, I don't believe this is actually the case but it doesn't seem any less plausible than that.

Sure we could but considering the difference in size and distance the decrease in speed would logically be much lower than the Juubi TBBs decrease across several dozen kilometers.

And given that unlike the Juubi TBB, Issen doesn't have the issue of a contradictory time frame. Meaning the argument of deceleration lacks its very basis

 

[Damage3245]

Sure we could but considering the difference in size and distance the decrease in speed would logically be much lower than the Juubi TBBs decrease across several dozen kilometers.

And given that unlike the Juubi TBB, Issen doesn't have the issue of a contradictory time frame. Meaning the argument of deceleration lacks its very basis

Fair enough.

 

[Samlex1234]

For the mabui stuff. All the people affected by ftl are above base Ay are they not?

This is exactly what I have been saying. Why do we keep bringing up the Mabui stuff when the upgrade is supposed to start from AY V1>Base Ay>~ Mabui Justu>~ Base Tsunade < Byakugo Seal Tsunade

 

[Damage3245]

This is exactly what I have been saying. Why do we keep bringing up the Mabui stuff when the upgrade is supposed to start from AY V1>Base Ay>~ To Mabui Justu>~ Base Tsunade < Byakugo Seal Tsunade

Again, when the OP was being made there was a much larger list of characters being discussed as being potentially upgraded to FTL. If there's not any more, then don't worry about those parts of the OP.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

If all this thread ends up doing is removing the new FTL scaling for the characters and not the MHS+ or Sub-Rel scaling, I'll be content with that. Only just woke up so I'll look in greater detail at everyone's posts soon.

bro doesnt care about the so called concerns he just wants 10c naruto removed

That's an interesting point to bring up for sure, but by the same token can we not extend this hypothetical deceleration to other things too? Say for example Mifune's Issen starts off as travelling at lightspeed, but then it decelerates pretty quickly and slows down to the point where all the ranged jutsu and Killer B's Biju Bomb caught up with it...

Light is massless

also the TBB weighs more, if Issen decelerates then the TBB would also decelerate and more so and it be outpaced massively

Again, when the OP was being made there was a much larger list of characters being discussed as being potentially upgraded to FTL. If there's not any more, then don't worry about those parts of the OP.

Cool, Mabui discourse should be dropped then , since no one is willing to make a scaling chain connecting to tsunade tier characters

 

[Damage3245]

bro doesnt care about the so called concerns he just wants 10c naruto removed

Oh, I care deeply and still think the ratings aren't perfect but I know that my views alone aren't absolute and I need to compromise with others.

Cool, Mabui discourse should be dropped then, since no one is willing to make a scaling chain connecting to tsunade tier characters

That's a relief for me then.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

So, since three mods have agreed about the False Darkness point, I think the next step is to recalc it.

On that note, how much lower than mach 7900 the value should be for the False Darkness calc to not overlap with the Kirin calc?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

So, since three mods have agreed about the False Darkness point, I think the next step is to recalc it.

On that note, how much value is it for the False Darkness calc to not overlap with the Kirin calc?

the current FD calc is Mach 7981
the Kirin calc is Mach 8089

 

[Godernet]

Why would he be talking about 10c Naruto when that’s God Tiers?

He already said that they’re not the topic of this thread.

Pretty sure he’s talking about the more recent stuff, the FTL Bijuu Bomb stuff

He already said if it calls for it he wouldn’t mind compromising on the MHS+/Sub Rel which would in turn leave the 10c stuff alone.

bro doesnt care about the so called concerns he just wants 10c naruto removed

Let’s not throw accusations and just stick to arguing his points.

 

[MrTayman616]

Well, it was always weird for me when i saw Naruto part 1 getting like 160x faster because of kyuubi mode 1 or 2.

 

[Godernet]

I mean he also gets hundreds of times stronger due to bridging the gap between a week Genin and Jounin to Sannin level fighters with each Kyuubi cloak so it’s not that crazy at all.

That just shows the massive gap between Kid Naruto and fractions of Kurama’s chakra which no matter how you slice it is probably hundreds of times.

Well, it was always weird for me when i saw Naruto part 1 getting like 160x faster because of kyuubi mode 1 or 2.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

the current FD calc is Mach 7981
the Kirin calc is Mach 8089

Yes, but Slayer said that mach 7900 is too much of a close gap to the Kirin calc, so it's not legit.

 

[Testarossa002]

Let's hold off on that a bit
It's important that the FD feat is calc'd with the intent of finding the most accurate value rather than the lowest possible value that aligns with current caling interpretations
If it’s Sub-Rel and deemed an outlier, so be it

 

[Damage3245]

Let's hold off on that a bit
It's important that the FD feat is calc'd with the intent of finding the most accurate value rather than the lowest possible value that aligns with current caling interpretations
If it’s Sub-Rel and deemed an outlier, so be it

Testarossa is correct here - each feat should be looked at by itself first and foremost without pre-conceptions in mind.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Let's hold off on that a bit
It's important that the FD feat is calc'd with the intent of finding the most accurate value rather than the lowest possible value that aligns with current caling interpretations
If it’s Sub-Rel and deemed an outlier, so be it

do you happen to know what the region was for the time kirin was made?

Because It could calc to subrel ends based on what I calc'd before

Time Taken = 0.001s (Stated Directly)

Temperate Region

Ranges from 0-14 km, I'll use middle ground which is 7km

Speed = Distance (m) / Time (s) = Ans /343 = Mach Value

= Mach 20417.8 (Sub-Relativistic)

Tropical Region

Ranges from 0-18 km so I'll go with 9 km

Using the same formula gives

= Mach 26267.9 (Sub-Relativistic)

Since you are enforcing a cap we should go with the highest number allowed by the supposed lightning speed of kirin, since 18km is the highest using that to calc a speed gives us

= Mach 52,535.9 (Sub-Relativistic+)


FD's Mach 7981 is wayy below these numbers

 

[DavidTPPM]

do you happen to know what the region was for the time kirin was made?

Because It could calc to subrel ends based on what I calc'd before

Time Taken = 0.001s (Stated Directly)

Temperate Region

Ranges from 0-14 km, I'll use middle ground which is 7km

Speed = Distance (m) / Time (s) = Ans /343 = Mach Value

= Mach 20417.8 (Sub-Relativistic)

Tropical Region

Ranges from 0-18 km so I'll go with 9 km

Using the same formula gives

= Mach 26267.9 (Sub-Relativistic)

Since you are enforcing a cap we should go with the highest number allowed by the supposed lightning speed of kirin, since 18km is the highest using that to calc a speed gives us

= Mach 52,535.9 (Sub-Relativistic+)


FD's Mach 7981 is wayy below these numbers

Kirin probably needs a wholeass separate thread ngl. Besides the light speed arguments, the distance is a lot more debatable.

You're using the average cloud height based on irl numbers but that makes Narutoverse lightning 15-40x faster than irl lightning. Which kidna messes with the idea of using irl values to begin with. And while the current calc does still get 6x above average lightning speed results as well, the distance is taken directly from the series so we're not relying on real life values at all.

But even then Zetsu here is not just talking about the speed of Kirin (which he had no way of knowing yet) but lightning in general. Meaning he's not saying Kirin can travel this current cloud-itachi distance that fast but general cloud-ground distance.
So the current method isn't necessarily 100% correct either. As obviously Sasuke isn't exactly at sea level given he's kinda on a hill/mountain/whatever

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with DavidTPPM that this is not the thread to be focusing on re-calcing Kirin.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Kirin probably needs a wholeass separate thread ngl. Besides the light speed arguments, the distance is a lot more debatable.

You're using the average cloud height based on irl numbers but that makes Narutoverse lightning 15-40x faster than irl lightning. Which kidna messes with the idea of using irl values to begin with. And while the current calc does still get 6x above average lightning speed results as well, the distance is taken directly from the series so we're not relying on real life values at all.

But even then Zetsu here is not just talking about the speed of Kirin (which he had no way of knowing yet) but lightning in general. Meaning he's not saying Kirin can travel this current cloud-itachi distance that fast but general cloud-ground distance.
So the current method isn't necessarily 100% correct either. As obviously Sasuke isn't exactly at sea level given he's kinda on a hill/mountain/whatever

I know its objectively talking about normal lightning speeds and we have a stated speed for kirin but this is for those people who think zetsu's statement is strictly for kirin and wish to use that to downgrade FD

I agree with DavidTPPM that this is not the thread to be focusing on re-calcing Kirin.

This is, because you're using a derived lowball calc as an anti feat for another calc

if you think Kirin contradicts FD then we should explore upper limits of Kirin
if you don't think it does and that it's talking about standard speeds of lightning within the verse then we shouldn't have to worry about recalcing False Darkness

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The Speed of Biju Bombs

Consequently to the previous threads, the speed of the Juubi's own Biju Bombs - being significantly more powerful than Gyuki's Biju Bombs - would also be faster than light, and yet there are scenes that would strongly indicate against that assumption.

In Chapter 613, the Juubi undergoes its evolution into its second form and begins spammning long-range Biju Bombs to rain down in distant locations. The last of these is aimed for the Allied Shinobi Forces' Headquarters located in the vicinity of Kumogakure. We then get an extensive sequence where the sensory shinobi realize the target of the Biju Bomb, relay it to the others, they discuss the situation and then Shikaku has the telepathic ninja relay his plan to beat the Juubi to everyone on the battlefield before the Biju Bomb lands. We can then see the explosion in the distance and Madara remarking "Finally got them."

For reference, the area where the Juubi is - where the alliance is fighting it - is indicated by the red arrow. The Allied Shinobi Forces' Headquarters is highlighted by a purple arrow.

Our currently accepted value approximating that distance is around 700 kilometers, and even with other methods it is at-most around a couple thousand kilometers.

Remember that lightspeed means a projectile could circle the Earth approximately 7.5 times in one second.

But here we have multiple characters conversing each other, being shown in contemplation, coming up with ideas... and then to end it off, Madara remarks that they 'finally' got them after waiting for the Biju Bomb to land. This is not the kind of remark one would make if he was just waiting for a hundredth of a second. There is significant travel time for that amount of distance.

While it's a common convention that "Talking is a Free Action" and characters can execute high-speed maneuvers while still speaking normally, this goes well beyond just a line or two. These are full-blown conversations that don't make any sense if an FTL projectile is crossing so short a distance.

The much stronger Juubi's Biju Bomb being this slow should call into question Gyuki's Biju Bomb being assumed to be so fast.

Not gonna get too deep into this as others have, but I'll sum up my thoughts as it not being too convincing as talking has no limits in fiction and even Naruto specifically (there were so many dialogue exchanges in Chapter 595 while the rocks everyone was fighting on were falling), and moreover, the Juubidama could be slowing down over distance due to air resistance and the like, as David said (I was gonna bring it up first but I got outsped ). I think this is semi-valid though, just not enough to really be a hard cap given that there are multiple unknowns.

Mifune's Issen

There is room for doubt as to whether or not Mifune's technique itself is a lightspeed projectile. The only basis for Mifune's technique being as fast as it is comes not from the manga itself, from a secondary source, the databook, which is only applied for the Naruto-verse on a case-by-case basis due to some discrepancies and hyperbolic statements such as Sasuke's power exceeding even that of the Akatsuki.



This has been translated by @Arc7Kuroi as:



What the statement in the databook is saying is that Mifune (who uses Iaido, a high-speed form of swordsmanship that is about drawing one's blade quickly and slashing), is slashing his sword at lightspeed and and releasing a flying slash at his enemy.

Even if we took the statement literally and assumed there was no databook hyperbole going on here, we could say that Mifune's sword stroke was executed at the speed of light, but the projectile sword-slash that is released by him is not necessarily travelling the quickly. The databook makes no actual mention of Mifune's flying slash being what is lightspeed.

Although Mifune's technique Issen, can be translated as Flash, or Beam of Light, this again doesn't mean the projectile has to be lightspeed. It's not a literal beam of light he's releasing, but a projectile of chakra released from his sword-swing. Same as all the other regular samurai who coat their blades in chakra and release slashes of chakra that Sasuke is able to react extremely casually to.

The fact that it's called a beam (or flash) of light which is clearly stated to be the speed of light should make it pretty obvious that the name is meant to be tied to its speed. The idea of only the sword stroke being light speed doesn't make much sense when the description is primarily about the jutsu. It's saying that the "speed of light sword stroke becomes a flying slash," meaning that the thing being sent flying is a LS slash, because it's the method of the attack that changes, not the attack's statistics.

Also, even going by a lowball that the flying slash isn't LS and just Kurama Amped Mifune's combat speed is, characters like KCM2 Naruto and the Juubi would still upscale from this.

Not to mention that describing someone's attack as a "speed of light sword stroke" can easily be a figurative description rather than an absolutely literal measurement of their speed. It conveys the meaning that Mifune's attack is fast which is all that matters.

Assuming we disregard all that though and still insist that it is Mifune's flying slash that is lightspeed, the original argument depends on the assumption that all of the attacks were launched at the exact same time. There is no chance that the shinobi and Gyuki were able to coordinate their moves that precisely; even a microsecond of time between the different jutsu starting to move would be relevant when we're talking about matters of lightspeed. It seems far more likely to me that Kishimoto just wanted a scene of several characters through ranged attacks together and didn't put any serious thought into it of them all having to be exactly the same speed, and that the minimum speed they'd need to travel is lightspeed.

Fairly neutral on this. Even though I do think Bee's Bijuudama is FTL, I don't think the argument from the combo attack scene alone is too concrete.

Sasuke's Kirin and Lightning Jutsu

There's more to take into consideration for the verse as a whole than just the Biju Bombs. A very important technique in Sasuke's arsenal is Kirin.

Kirin has been gone over enough times in this wiki's history that I'm sure almost all Naruto fans here will be familiar with it but I'll provide an overview of it just to illustrate my point at how the speed ratings we've introduced contradict the narrative.

After exhausting his chakra on Orochimaru's substitution technique and several fireballs he fired into the sky, Sasuke reveals that he has one last technique up his sleeve despite his lack of chakra. He used the fireballs to create stormclouds above, and he's going to use them to create a technique that 'lasts an instant' and 'cannot be blocked or evaded'. Sasuke doesn't supply his own chakra to power or speed up the technique (he can't; he's out of it as confirmed by Itachi); he just takes advantage of the enormous ambigent atmospheric energy to launch a Lightning Style jutsu by harnessing natural lightning. As Sasuke himself explains, the jutsu guides the lightning striking down from the clouds at a target of Sasuke's choice; he merely directs natural lightning towards Itachi.

This is the reason why Kirin cannot be evaded, according to Zetsu. It's speed enabling it to cross the distance in 0.001 seconds.The currently accepted calculation for Kirin's speed is Mach 8089, using that timeframe from the manga.

If a Massively Hypersonic+ attack (several hundred Mach off of being Sub-Relativistic) travelling across hundreds of meters is considered to be nigh-undodgeable by not just one but two sources commenting on the speed of the technique making it impossible to evade then a few things about the way we rank speed ratings on the wiki don't make sense and directly contradict the information presented to us in the primary source of the series.

Looking purely at the manga, I would probably agree, but having it stated in two separate guidebooks released at separate times that Kirin is light speed is clearly damage control on Kishimoto's part.

And it's not like the manga evidence is definitive. This is clearly not normal lightning. The fact that this Kirin was spurred on by multiple Fire Style from CM2 Sasuke and a lot of Amaterasu could have supercharged the lightning to make it move faster than it would normally. This isn't provable per se, but it's consistent, as we know that a jutsu being imbued with more chakra can increase its speed (and this is blatantly obvious as chakra is the whole reason different jutsu have different speeds), so the chakra from Sasuke and Itachi's flames could very well have contributed to Kirin being faster than Zetsu's explanation of natural lightning's speed. I'm fairly certain that we can agree chakra played a part in the natural lightning becoming a red-eyed dragon, so why not its speed, a key element of the technique?

Characters like the Sannin (who Sasuke and Zetsu are more than familiar with) aren't going around fighting at FTL speed. Jutsu like the Biju Bomb (which multiple characters have blocked or evaded) doesn't make sense being FTL if an MHS+ technique is considered impossible to evade.

Yes they aren't FTL either way

While it is true that Sasuke's knowledge is limited; for example he was unaware that Itachi possessed the Susano'o that he could use to block the Kirin, and he is unaware of the speed of the upper echelons like Minato who could use the Flying Thunder God technique to teleport out of the way, the statement still remains a strong barrier for the vast majority of shinobi.

This I actually agree with in a sense. I don't think there were many shinobi at that point who could dodge lightning with a wide AoE, but Zetsu is a bit unreliable for reasons many have talked about and Sasuke likely knew how fast Kirin really was. So if it is light speed, that only caps most of the verse to sub-light speed, not sub-lightning speed.

Lightning speed jutsu is never considered to be a joke in the series. The databook for Kakuzu's False Darkness jutsu states "It is exceedingly difficult to dodge a lightning bolt flying at high speed."

Using this to support your argument while trying to throw out its calc doesn't make much sense, but I'd also like to note that this kind of contradicts your point, as Kakashi moves faster than the lightning here, and there are quite a few ninja, Sasuke included, who are faster than Early P2 Kakashi.

Even in the final arc of the series Madara employs realistic lightning bolts created through Yin Release to attack Naruto and Sasuke. Whilst though both Naruto and Sasuke quite capably react to it without issue, it shows that it is still a potential threat.

This is why it is very hard to accept that most characters are regularly fighting at FTL speeds, or that someone like Kakashi is over twice as fast as Kirin is. By Hidan scaling to Kakashi, and Shikamaru scaling to Hidan, we end up in a scenario where Shikamaru is actually 6.3 times faster than the attack that blitzes him. If we go with the current FTL proposals then we end up in a situation where Kakuzu is "FTL, with MHS+ attack speed", and an FTL Shikamaru was helpless as an MHS+ attack crossed dozens of meters to reach him. It is too contradictory.

I've mentioned that Kakuzu isn't proposed to be FTL, but either way I kind of do agree that Shikamaru not dodging False Darkness is odd while being rated faster than it. Which is why I think Kakashi's speed might've been amped by Raikiri at that moment, which it's (somewhat inconsistently) portrayed to do. I bolded that because it's a pretty important point to the larger discussion for others to comment on.

Mabui's Ethereal Transmission Jutsu and the Raikage

One thing to remember is that in the general shinobi world, not counting freaks of the past like Madara and the Hashirama, the Raikage is the fastest ninja alive. Even in his base form he's regarded as super-fast, and in Lightning Chakra Mode Version 1 and Version 2, he becomes even faster. When using the Shunshin (Body Flicker Technique) in this state, he can even accomplish the nigh-impossible feat of evading Sasuke's Mangekyo Sharingan visual prowess and escaping being ignited with the Amaterasu technique which ignites at whatever Sasuke is looking at.

This is important because when it comes to Mabui's Ethereal Transmission jutsu - which can transport objects across vast distances at the speed of light - the main drawback for trying to use it on living human beings is that their bodies cannot cope with the the immense speed and they become torn apart. Only freaks like the 3rd Raikage who have unique extra-tough physiques can endure it, and Tsunade who has the ability to heal herself after travelling. This weakness is reiterated in the databook which mentions the movement being too fast unless the target has a sturdy body.

Why is this important? Because if shinobi regularly fought and moved at faster-than-light speeds, then the speed of Mabui's technique would be trivial to them. Even for the 4th Raikage, the fastest shinobi alive, Mabui states that it may be possible for the 4th Raikage to successfully travel by this technique but only because he's the 3rd Raikage's son. As his secretary, Mabui would know the 4th Raikage's abilities better than most and even she only conjectures that it may be possible for him, rather than acknowledging that he regularly moves beyond lightspeed anyway.

This point seems to have been dropped but I'll just note that distance is a factor other than speed

Pain's Shinra Tensei

An important drawback to Pain's Shinra Tensei (Almighty Push) is that it has a minimum cooldown of 5 seconds between every usage of it.

The characters do not treat this as a huge amount of time within which to act:

Choza: "And if his recharging period is really brief... we can't afford to get close."

Random Shinobi: "Only five seconds, huh..."

Katsuyu: "The minimum interval between his jutsu is about five seconds. So you must target and strike during that window."
Naruto: "Five seconds, huh...."
Fukasaku: "Our only hope is to trap 'em within Genjutsu."

It's pretty telling a "brief" recharging period of five seconds poses difficulties for these characters. Kakashi, with Choji and Choza, have to execute a pretty elaborate strategy to have to get around Pains' brief period of vulnerability, and Fukasaku doesn't see much hope for Naruto without defeating Pain indirectly through Genjutsu.

All of this is to say that it seems extraordinarily inconsistent for us to treat these characters as being able to move, fight and react at FTL levels of speed if a timeframe like this in combat poses difficulties for them.

Strongly disagree with this point like everyone else. I know you mentioned mediating between low end and high end outliers, but there's a difference between an outlier and something that's higher than other showings. Pain's Shinra Tensei is straight up an outlier, whereas (some of) the light speed metas are simply a progression from the verse's prior showings/statement about speed.

Other Anti-Feats

This is less important than the other feats and anti-feats brought up above, but early on in Shippuden, Chapter 277 - 278, there is a scene of several characters being depicted as slower than an explosion created by Deidara. Might Guy is on par with Kakashi and yet Neji was certain that they wouldn't be able to escape the blast wave before it hit them, with them only actually being saved by Kakashi using the risky Kamui jutsu to warp away the explosion. While this scene would show that Kakashi has the reactions to activate his jutsu before the explosion could hit him, the speed of the characters at risk of being hit by the explosion certainly shouldn't be in the Sub-Relativistic to FTL range.

Another thing to bear in mind is that blinding opponents with bright flashes of light is a legit strategy throughout the series with nobody reacting until after they've already been blinded. Such as;

• C using his Flash Pillar technique to blind Jugo and Sasuke, following it up with a Genjutsu.
• Kabuto using Sage Technique: White Extreme Attack to create a flash of light blinding Itachi and Sasuke. Both of them were incapacitated by the attack, but they made no move to stop the light before it hit them? It shouldn't have taken them so off-guard if they were faster than the light it emitted.
• C and several other Shinobi using the Flash Pillar technique to blind Obito, Madara and the Juubi with a bright flash of light. Madara and Obito are shown casually reacting to and commenting on the movements of hundreds of attacking shinobi including Sage Made Naruto and 5th Gates Guy and Rock Lee, but a flash of light from much further distance was able to blind and surprise them? If everyone was FTL, the blinding attack would've taken relatively much longer to reach them. Even more tellingly, the Juubi could casually react to and flick away Gyuki's Biju Bomb at point-blank range earlier, yet it gets caught out by a flash of light from much further away?

All of these examples are subject to the weakness that a jutsu's speed isn't capped by its property because chakra can amp it. Might as well say the verse is barely above the speed of sound as Kabuto thought Tayuya's sound genjutsu was a valid strategy against Sasuke and Itachi.

TL;DR

People should really read the full text above if they want to get involved in the thread, but here's the points above summarized;

• Faster Biju Bombs than Gyuki's are depicted to be significantly slower than FTL.
• Mifune's flying slash is probably not lightspeed to begin with.
• Multiple scaling inconsistencies arise if we try to make as many characters as possible FTL.
• Sasuke's MHS+ Kirin is a hard cap for a good portion of the verse.
• The Raikage, one of the world's fastest shinobi, is implied to be slower than lightspeed, which also hard caps a good portion of the verse.
• The 5 second cooldown of Pain's technique is shown to be a brief window of opportunity for the characters to work around.
• Several characters struggled to outpace an explosion created by Deidara.
• Several characters are regularly caught off guard by blinding flashes of light.

Conclusions

My proposals that follow from the observations I've made above are this:

• Remove the scaling that is based upon the assumption of a lightspeed flying slash, and Killer B's attack being comparable to it.
• Remove Kakashi's Sub-Rel calc of intercepting Kakuzu's False Darkness jutsu, for contradicting the information around Kirin.

After those steps, we re-examine the ratings of the characters based on the calcs and feats available, aiming to be as consistent as we can be with our profiles and the series.

I'm kinda neutral on removing Bee's FTL Bijuudama rating as the arguments aren't too convincing against that specifically, leaning towards disagreeing

As for the False Darkness calc, I disagree on removing it entirely, but do think it's an interesting discussion of whether it should scale to everyone's regular combat speed.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Kirin probably needs a wholeass separate thread ngl. Besides the light speed arguments, the distance is a lot more debatable.

You're using the average cloud height based on irl numbers but that makes Narutoverse lightning 15-40x faster than irl lightning. Which kidna messes with the idea of using irl values to begin with. And while the current calc does still get 6x above average lightning speed results as well, the distance is taken directly from the series so we're not relying on real life values at all.

But even then Zetsu here is not just talking about the speed of Kirin (which he had no way of knowing yet) but lightning in general. Meaning he's not saying Kirin can travel this current cloud-itachi distance that fast but general cloud-ground distance.
So the current method isn't necessarily 100% correct either. As obviously Sasuke isn't exactly at sea level given he's kinda on a hill/mountain/whatever

Unless Sasuke guides the kirin by creating a path of least resistance with chakra, if he uses that method Kirin could be as fast as electricity on a super conductor and reach 99% the speed of light

 

[DavidTPPM]

If you think Kirin contradicts FD then we should explore upper limits of Kirin
if you don't think it does and that it's talking about standard speeds of lightning within the verse then we shouldn't have to worry about recalcing False Darkness

Didn't Damage say he's fine to compromise on the FD calc for now and that this thread doesn't aim to remove it?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Didn't Damage say he's fine to compromise on the FD calc for now and that this thread doesn't aim to remove it?

I believe that's as a compromise, by the new speeds I have proposed it leaves them no room to argue Kirin caps FD so even if he wishes to revisit it later he would have to deal with this


Damage if you are truly stepping down from the FD removal proposals then we can stop discussing that

 

[Damage3245]

I believe that's as a compromise, by the new speeds I have proposed it leaves them no room to argue Kirin caps FD so even if he wishes to revisit it later he would have to deal with this

Damage if you are truly stepping down from the FD removal proposals then we can stop discussing that

I'll finish going through the staff's newest comments on the OP first before I edit the OP to change the proposals.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Understood.

 

[Testarossa002]

Testarossa is correct here - each feat should be looked at by itself first and foremost without pre-conceptions in mind.

Also, Damage, am I correct in assuming that the only things left to discuss in the OP are Bijuu Bombs, Issen, and Kirin?
So we know which stuffs to focus on

do you happen to know what the region was for the time kirin was made?

I don't know for certain. The thread that added the current rating mentioned something about the polarised region.

That being said, since we're all about taking Zetsu's statement as primary evidence, shouldn't his "0.001 seconds" statement apply for CTG lightning in the verse. Since he was speaking generally rather than a specific case (kirin)
Using that logic, CTG lightning should have its speed from what Zetsu told us.
The average height of a cumulonimbus (stated by Zetsu to be the source of lightning) according to the wiki is 8304.8 m
The timeframe, as stated by zetsu, is 0.001 seconds
Note
The above isn't finding the speed of Kirin as used in the Sasuke/Itachi fight
It's finding the speed of CTG lightning per Zetsu's word. Zetsu's word, which is also being used as a cap for other characters

Typed allat only to get ninja'd by David

 

[Damage3245]

Also, Damage, am I correct in assuming that the only things left to discuss in the OP are Bijuu Bombs, Issen, and Kirin?
So we know which stuffs to focus on

I'll be responding to everyone's arguments on those points later tonight. The stuff for Pain and the lesser anti-feats aren't important to the argument and I just wanted to gauge people's thoughts on them. The Mabui point isn't an issue if the people affected by that aren't going to be proposed to be FTL anyway.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I'll be responding to everyone's arguments on those points later tonight. The stuff for Pain and the lesser anti-feats aren't important to the argument and I just wanted to gauge people's thoughts on them. The Mabui point isn't an issue if the people affected by that aren't going to be proposed to be FTL anyway.

You were suggesting that LCM Ay shouldn't be LS either since Mabui was uncertain he could survive right? He is being proposed as FTL I believe

 

[Damage3245]

You were suggesting that LCM Ay shouldn't be LS either since Mabui was uncertain he could survive right? He is being proposed as FTL I believe

Ah, good point, you're right, yeah. I'll concentrate on the more important issues first though.

 

[Nierre]

I've mentioned that Kakuzu isn't proposed to be FTL, but either way I kind of do agree that Shikamaru not dodging False Darkness is odd while being rated faster than it. Which is why I think Kakashi's speed might've been amped by Raikiri at that moment, which it's (somewhat inconsistently) portrayed to do. I bolded that because it's a pretty important point to the larger discussion for others to comment on.

To be honest, and I've made mention to this off site before and I believe on the wiki, but I really think he was using Shunshin there. And I think that could solve potential scaling issues by scaling it to his Shunshin speed rather than his normal speed, I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on that because to me, it's clearly him using Shunshin, you see the lines that show rapid movement, similar to what we normally see from Shunshin.

Also eventually when going over Boruto speed, I want to separate "normal speed", from Shunshin (just like we do with Jutsus above a user's normal physicals), so if we can get that accepted and agreed upon here that'll make things easier moving forward

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I mention Raikiri and not Shunshin because I believe Kakashi's combat speed is also calced at high end MHS+/Sub-Rel, which I don't think Shunshin affects