Naruto Multiplier Additions

[UchihaSlayer96]

Spoiler: SECTION A

Naruto's Birth of the Ten-Tails' Jinchūriki Key does not have Majestic Attire Susano (MAS)
listed in the profile so it should be added,

Sure, that's fine ig.

my proposal for justification are as follows :

higher with Majestic Attire Susano (The Majestic Attire Susano is the strongest War God, putting it above the Ashura Avatar
which is three times stronger than his base due to merging three clones into one avatar) [300 Teratons]

Honestly, not sure how I feel about this version of the MAS scaling above a form that didn't even exist yet.

Also, I gotta say, the more I think about the Ashura Avatar thing, the more I think it shouldn't be a multiplier tbh. That being said, it is currently accepted, so until someone (not me) decides to deal with that one at some point, I guess I can't say much on that front.

Overall, neutral on this one, leaning towards disagreeing.

upto Continent level+ with Multi Rasengan Barrage (While using the Majestic Attire Susano Naruto creates 9 massive rasengans
from each of the nine tails of the War God to combine together and blast Juubito's shields) [2.7 Petatons]


Naruto obviously can do this with him and Sasuke alone but gave it to them so they can help create an opening for the sword to
stab Obito so they should get the full rating

Pretty sure that the multiplier rules explicitly state that stacking multiple attacks together doesn't grant a multiplier. And before you bring up the Rasengan Barrage being accepted, that's only because it has an explicit statement of being 2x stronger than a normal Rasengan.

Spoiler: SECTION B

SIX PATHS KEY


Naruto creates 9 rasenshuriken amped by each Bijuu and launches them together at kaguya to form one big powerful destruction,
this should get a 9x multiplier from his base stats


higher with Sage Art Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken (Naruto makes 9 rasenshuriken incorporating each of their special chakra
into it and launches them simultaneously at Kaguya to perform one big devastating attack) [7.613 Zettatons]

EDIT : So I forgot to mention that the Rasengan Barrage is accepted as a 2x multiplier for clashing two spirals together, Since Kaguya tanked this with little scratches her profile had the 2x value in her durability section, I'm arguing since it's 9 rasenshurikens the multiplier should change to 9x for Naruto's ap

EDIT 2 : Stepping down and agreeing with Net's interpretation

---

Uhh, nice, guess Net saved me the trouble.

Spoiler: SECTION C

Naruto has these powers even in the New era so these multipliers should also be included in Adult form as well

KCM Base - 1.692 Zettatons (L5B) (2x due to Fused Momo doubled AP)
9 Rasenshuriken Attack - 15.228 Zettatons (L5B) (9x)
MAS (strongest wargod) - 5.076 Zettatons (L5B) (3x) (Above Asura Avatar)
Nonuple Rasengan Barrage from MAS - 45.684 Zettatons (L5B+) (27x) (Makes 9 rasengan from the MAS and combines that attack)

Isshiki dwarfs their power so much that nothing naruto can do would harm him to the point of contemplating death, putting Isshiki
above the L5B+ attack to hopefully get upscaled to Baseline 5B

---

So, uh, this feels like a consequence of Sections A and B. Since I don't agree with either of them, I naturally don't agree with this either.

One thing I wanna say, though, is that the New Era MAS already scales above the Ashura Avatar, and it actually scales to a higher value than what you have here. Twice the value, it seems. So yeah.
And both Jigen and Isshiki already scale above said value.

Spoiler: SECTION D

The first gate is accepted to be a 5x speed buff , Kakashi has displayed the ability to use the first gate so his profile should get that
listed as it is a canon ability of his, changes as follows

Key	Base	Upto with First Gate
P1+P2	MHS+ [Mach 7981.5194]	Subrel [Mach 39907.597]
War Arc	Subrel [Mach 39907.597]	Relativistic [Mach 199537.985]
DMS	FTL+ [10c]	FTL+ [50c]
New Era	FTL [9.12c]	FTL+ [45.6c]

Isshiki scales above the 45.6c value due to speed being one of the largest factors in establishing superiority as you can blitz/catch
the enemy off guard. Narusasu were stated to stand a better chance than anyone in Konoha, so MAS should be above 45.6c

---

Ehhh, like honestly, I don't like upgrading the verse's speed roughly 50x above the best calcable feat off of a one-off panel from 20+ years ago.

Not to mention, Kakashi has never, ever used the 1st Gate in combat as far as I know. So, like, if he didn't use it against Pain, Madara, Obito, Kaguya, etc; I honestly don't see why he'd use it against Isshiki in some hypothetical match-up.

Idk, seems really flimsy considering how massive of a jump it is IMO. I highly, highly doubt this is even something that Ikemoto/Kishimoto are keeping in mind at this point. Kishimoto, espeically, given that it's something he never brought back outside of that one scan.
So I feel like it's pretty iffy to say that they had said amp in mind when they made the statements about NaruSasu being above him considering it's just not something he uses in combat.

And even if we were to entertain this hypothetical, it's not like the temporary burst of speed would allow Kakashi to beat Isshiki anyway given the massive AP advantage and the fact that it won't last for any significant stretch of time.

Preface
Naruto is 10x faster than Base Kashin Koji

1. Baseline for Kashin Koji
In a previous thread, I tried to upgrade KK’s AP, after reviewing counterarguments—particularly from Sparkle, whose points I
acknowledge—I am no longer pursuing that AP upgrade. However, if you check the agreement section there was a somewhat
consensus that Base KK scales to at least 10c, due to his confidence against Delta. --> HERE <-- Even if one argues he would
hax abilities to deal with Delta it still requires 10c speed for combat, this speed will apply to both KK and Base 10% Jigen rather
than the 9.13c they currently have.

Tbh, I'm not really seeing it. The difference between 9.12c and 10c is so inconsequential that I genuinely don't see why KK wouldn't be able to keep up with 10c Delta as a 9.12c.

2. Isshiki’s Transformation and the 10x Multiplier

In Chapter 48, Upon Isshiki’s transformation, KK explicitly observes that Isshiki’s power has increased by an “order of magnitude”
beyond Jigen’s when noting it's instantaneous shrinking. The Japanese text uses the term Keta Chigai (ケタ違い), directly meaning
a “digit difference” or “order of magnitude difference. “Keta” represents a positional digit (like tens, hundreds, thousands) rather
than a loose or undefined increase paired with Chigai (違い) meaning difference, most often used to indicate a multiplication by 10
when moving from one “digit” level to the next.

Due to meaning “Digit Difference” in its literal sense this phrase is mathematically grounded, not merely rhetorical like the higher level
it has an established connotation as a 10x increase. (For qualitative increase the accurate word would instead be Dan Chigai [段違い]
meaning level difference)

So the accurate translation would be

This is why, in various manga contexts, “keta chigai” denotes a clear multiplier. A few examples of this phrase has been used to upgrade
off a few digits in the wiki previously are, Cero Oscura from BLEACH and Naruto God Tier Speed upgrades both make use of this phrase to denote
their digit differences

The VIZ English translation softens this to “another level,” which downplays the significance of the original language. “Another level” while
implying a qualitative improvement fitting for Dan Chigai [段違い] , lacks the numerical weight of “Keta Chigai” (ケタ違い) and as a result,
misrepresents the clear quantitative leap implied in the original Japanese.

Since KK said this in reference to how instantaneous the jutsu was it is referring to the shrinking speed. Thus, if Base Jigen’s jutsu speed is
set at 10c, Isshiki’s transformation—bearing this explicitly stated “keta chigai”—places his jutsu speed at a logical 100c.

---

Hmmmm, honestly, I think this might be fine. So long as the TLs are legit, I think this might be okay tbh.

3. Naruto’s Scaling to Isshiki’s Jutsu Speed:
Naruto’s combat performance surpasses Isshiki in everything speed wise


-Blitzed Isshiki many times, not allowing him to react
-Intercepted the microscopic high speed rods and is able to go back and pick one up and strike more of them down before they can hit him
-He can Intercept the rods before they even get to expand to full size (He was so fast,some of them were still in the process of expanding)
-His Supermassive Rasengan was so fast Isshiki’s shrinking speed was not fast enough to shrink the Jutsu in time and as a result was blastedwith the Jutsu

Obviously, Naruto scaling to/above Isshiki is fine by me.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yep, I firmly maintain my position then.

 

[Damage3245]

Please be logical, He cannot use in the war out of concern of the strain debilitating him and other instances weren’t energies or wouldn’t have him benefit from its use much

There’s no evidence he doesn’t use it in normal combat
He didn’t just use it once and dump it off
He obviously used in normal missions, he’s learned and trained with it enough know how to perfectly execute it in times of need so it’s definitely an important ability in his arsenal

Your evidence of him using it in combat is...?

 

[Syncornize]

Spoiler: SECTION A

higher with Majestic Attire Susano (The Majestic Attire Susano is the strongest War God, putting it above the Ashura Avatar
which is three times stronger than his base due to merging three clones into one avatar) [300 Teratons]

Here I think you have made a mistake. Majestic Attire Susano is not stronger than the ashura avatar which is stronger than Naruto SP, I agree that that combo is stronger than Kurama's avatar individually,so that should be added to the adult naruto key. The ashura avatar is something he can only do in the final valley, scaling to a hypothetical form if previously unlocked makes no sense.

Spoiler: SECTION B

SIX PATHS KEY

Naruto creates 9 rasenshuriken amped by each Bijuu and launches them together at kaguya to form one big powerful destruction,
this should get a 9x multiplier from his base stats
higher with Sage Art Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken (Naruto makes 9 rasenshuriken incorporating each of their special chakra
into it and launches them simultaneously at Kaguya to perform one big devastating attack) [7.613 Zettatons]

the x9 has no real prerequisite. The technique consists of 9 different attacks, therefore 9 different outputs, which as you can see from the explosion don't all hit the same exat point of Kaguya's body, even if they had the same point of impact, the energy of the various explosions does not add up. The attack is not a fusion of 9 different outputs that become one.

This should be something like x15 ?! in general the proposal has no sensible foundation

a multiplier of this size should feel similar to a one-shot if it doesn't end directly that way

on the current profile, Naruto has an equivalent level of damage through Empowerment, so I would rule out this being a damage entity he can consistently execute without any problems. at the very least, this should be debunked, since the feat is very similar it doesn't make sense that that chakra-filled hand is a x9

Preface
Naruto is 10x faster than Base Kashin Koji

1. Baseline for Kashin Koji
In a previous thread, I tried to upgrade KK’s AP, after reviewing counterarguments—particularly from Sparkle, whose points I
acknowledge—I am no longer pursuing that AP upgrade. However, if you check the agreement section there was a somewhat
consensus that Base KK scales to at least 10c, due to his confidence against Delta. --> HERE <-- Even if one argues he would
hax abilities to deal with Delta it still requires 10c speed for combat, this speed will apply to both KK and Base 10% Jigen rather
than the 9.13c they currently have.

---

2. Isshiki’s Transformation and the 10x Multiplier




In Chapter 48, Upon Isshiki’s transformation, KK explicitly observes that Isshiki’s power has increased by an “order of magnitude”
beyond Jigen’s when noting it's instantaneous shrinking. The Japanese text uses the term Keta Chigai (ケタ違い), directly meaning
a “digit difference” or “order of magnitude difference. “Keta” represents a positional digit (like tens, hundreds, thousands) rather
than a loose or undefined increase paired with Chigai (違い) meaning difference, most often used to indicate a multiplication by 10
when moving from one “digit” level to the next.

The same concept of the multipliers I mentioned earlier still applies here.all the context given by the kanji simply revolves around the ‘strongest’ or similar concept, it certainly does not give the evidence of a multiplier. Honestly, if the author really intended to apply such a multiplier he would have stated it directly, it gives me the air of an overanalysis.


for kakashi's upgrade, I don't see a problem, it was a matter of adding things already accepted.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Sure, that's fine ig.

Honestly, not sure how I feel about this version of the MAS scaling above a form that didn't even exist yet.

Also, I gotta say, the more I think about the Ashura Avatar thing, the more I think it shouldn't be a multiplier tbh. That being said, it is currently accepted, so until someone (not me) decides to deal with that one at some point, I guess I can't say much on that front.

Overall, neutral on this one, leaning towards disagreeing.

Most people disagreed with MAS getting a 3x buff so I proposed a bare minimum 2x, what do you think of that?

Pretty sure that the multiplier rules explicitly state that stacking multiple attacks together doesn't grant a multiplier. And before you bring up the Rasengan Barrage being accepted, that's only because it has an explicit statement of being 2x stronger than a normal Rasengan.

It's deadass fulfils the same reason as the RSB, hell it is the SAME thing just more numbers of rasengan are used, if 2 rasengan clashing gives more than 2, 9 clashing should be more than 9 at least, it's straightforward

Ehhh, like honestly, I don't like upgrading the verse's speed roughly 50x above the best calcable feat off of a one-off panel from 20+ years ago.

Not to mention, Kakashi has never, ever used the 1st Gate in combat as far as I know. So, like, if he didn't use it against Pain, Madara, Obito, Kaguya, etc; I honestly don't see why he'd use it against Isshiki in some hypothetical match-up.

Idk, seems really flimsy considering how massive of a jump it is IMO. I highly, highly doubt this is even something that Ikemoto/Kishimoto are keeping in mind at this point. Kishimoto, espeically, given that it's something he never brought back outside of that one scan.
So I feel like it's pretty iffy to say that they had said amp in mind when they made the statements about NaruSasu being above him considering it's just not something he uses in combat.

And even if we were to entertain this hypothetical, it's not like the temporary burst of speed would allow Kakashi to beat Isshiki anyway given the massive AP advantage and the fact that it won't last for any significant stretch of time.

If we only accepted things we can verify that the authors think of everytime then a lot of verses would get downgraded for having scaling beyond hypothetical use as it's almost always unverifiable and it seems like that here is cuz Kishi already considered a giant gap between kakashi and naruto for years so obv he wouldnt think of that.
I'm assuming you share the same take as LephyrTheRevanchist and are okay with 45.6c only on Kakashi's profile without god tiers scaling to it?

Tbh, I'm not really seeing it. The difference between 9.12c and 10c is so inconsequential that I genuinely don't see why KK wouldn't be able to keep up with 10c Delta as a 9.12c.

Hmmmm, honestly, I think this might be fine. So long as the TLs are legit, I think this might be okay tbh.

Obviously, Naruto scaling to/above Isshiki is fine by me.

You do realize wiki speeds do not reflect actual in-verse speeds right? Delta is way faster than Blank Period Era Kakashi who kept that speed in his new era form due to lack of multipliers and had that while fighting Koji, if the speed gap was that less they'd bring old shinobi to try their luck in fights, hell Kakashi would be brought in to fight Momoshiki (even without the first gate)

Hmmmm, honestly, I think this might be fine. So long as the TLs are legit, I think this might be okay tbh.

Obviously, Naruto scaling to/above Isshiki is fine by me.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Your evidence of him using it in combat is...?

The lack of evidence of him not using it in combat, naruto is very lore centric and has off screened missions, if kakashi makes use of it when climbing it is likely he uses it often for basic things, it wouldn't be outrageous to assume its used in combat to swiftly score a victory


if you'll notice, when guy or lee fights with him they're always using the higher number of gates, why? because those provide a greater amp than the first gate which is basically child's play to guy and lee, that's why he doesnt use it, he also cannot maintain efficiency.

Can I get your votes, I think I pretty much exhausted every argument I could muster for section D with this reply, if that's not gonna convince you I doubt anything else I have can

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I agree with D and E.

I also agree with the idea that Naruto and Sasuke's speed should be measured through Kakashi. In Shonen Jump magazine, Naruto is called the strongest Shinobi and at the peak of his power. This should not be interpreted as just AP. Even though Kakashi is retired, he fought Base Koji's clone and there is nothing that shows retired Kakashi>Hokage Kakashi.

Some of you may say, "Well, Kakashi doesn't prefer to use the 1st gate." That's true, but we should not forget that the characters are compared by including what they can use in a possible encounter. Naruto hasn't used Kurama's power for a long time either. Can we think that the statement in Shonen Jump magazine is for Base or Sage Naruto? Also, if Kakashi accelerates 5x, doesn't that mean he can blitz Naruto?

Chidori also increases speed. I have a feeling that Chidori>1st gate's speed could be there, but there is no definite statement. Kakashi can use Chidori better thanks to his sharingan, but he doesn't feel the need to open Sharingan to use the 1st Gate. Correct me if I'm wrong, when using Chidori without Sharingan, the character had difficulty fighting due to the excessive acceleration of Chidori. I think Chidori>1st Gate.

Another argument is that Taijutsu is related to power and speed. If Naruto is better at taijutsu than Kakashi, it can be considered stronger and faster than him. We can't say that Kakashi doesn't use taijutsu because in the novel he defeats Lee in a taijutsu match. Naruto thinks that Kakashi's taijutsu is better than Lee's at the beginning of Shippuden.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

The ashura avatar is something he can only do in the final valley, scaling to a hypothetical form if previously unlocked makes no sense.

yeah ik, ima go edit it out and swap for a 2x

the x9 has no real prerequisite. The technique consists of 9 different attacks, therefore 9 different outputs, which as you can see from the explosion don't all hit the same exat point of Kaguya's body, even if they had the same point of impact, the energy of the various explosions does not add up. The attack is not a fusion of 9 different outputs that become one.

uh huh cool but I kinda crossed that section out when I conceded to Net so you're fighting ghosts buddy

The same concept of the multipliers I mentioned earlier still applies here.all the context given by the kanji simply revolves around the ‘strongest’ or similar concept, it certainly does not give the evidence of a multiplier. Honestly, if the author really intended to apply such a multiplier he would have stated it directly, it gives me the air of an overanalysis.


for kakashi's upgrade, I don't see a problem, it was a matter of adding things already accepted.

IT MOST CERTAINLY IS NOT
You did not at all read my Section E arguments at all, there was no "strongest" kanji used that part
It was a clear and precise stated multiplier with valid feats against it

you probably mistook it for the isshiki>kakashi scaling parts

 

[Damage3245]

The lack of evidence of him not using it in combat

How do you expect evidence of this to be presented? We can look at all the times he fights in combat and note that it's never mentioned by himself or his opponents that he's using the Gates.

If we only accepted things we can verify that the authors think of everytime then a lot of verses would get downgraded for having scaling beyond hypothetical use as it's almost always unverifiable and it seems like that here is cuz Kishi already considered a giant gap between kakashi and naruto for years so obv he wouldnt think of that.

This is not a bad thing. People can get carried away with headcanon scaling sometimes.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I agree with D and E.

I also agree with the idea that Naruto and Sasuke's speed should be measured through Kakashi. In Shonen Jump magazine, Naruto is called the strongest Shinobi and at the peak of his power. This should not be interpreted as just AP. Even though Kakashi is retired, he fought Base Koji's clone and there is nothing that shows retired Kakashi>Hokage Kakashi.

Some of you may say, "Well, Kakashi doesn't prefer to use the 1st gate." That's true, but we should not forget that the characters are compared by including what they can use in a possible encounter. Naruto hasn't used Kurama's power for a long time either. Can we think that the statement in Shonen Jump magazine is for Base or Sage Naruto? Also, if Kakashi accelerates 5x, doesn't that mean he can blitz Naruto?

Chidori also increases speed. I have a feeling that Chidori>1st gate's speed could be there, but there is no definite statement. Kakashi can use Chidori better thanks to his sharingan, but he doesn't feel the need to open Sharingan to use the 1st Gate. Correct me if I'm wrong, when using Chidori without Sharingan, the character had difficulty fighting due to the excessive acceleration of Chidori. I think Chidori>1st Gate.

Another argument is that Taijutsu is related to power and speed. If Naruto is better at taijutsu than Kakashi, it can be considered stronger and faster than him. We can't say that Kakashi doesn't use taijutsu because in the novel he defeats Lee in a taijutsu match. Naruto thinks that Kakashi's taijutsu is better than Lee's at the beginning of Shippuden.

Add me to agree with D and E, dude. We also need to discuss the Chidori argument I wrote.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

How do you expect evidence of this to be presented? We can look at all the times he fights in combat and note that it's never mentioned by himself or his opponents that he's using the Gates.

He also knows a thousand jutsu he simply does not use them or show them on screen, does not really take it away from it existing in the lore


As for presentation I think of it like this
FTL+ with Majestic Attire Susano (Naruto and Sasuke were explicitly regarded as the only shinobi capable of presenting a meaningful challenge against Isshiki, despite the presence of First Gate Kakashi and the added speed advantage. For their combined efforts to render the additional speed advantage insignificant in the battle against Isshiki, puts their MAS speeds above Kakashi's first gate. [45.6c]

Add me to agree with D and E, dude. We also need to discuss the Chidori argument I wrote.

gotchu ‍

 

[Robo432343]

agree with option E and D

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I agree with D and E.

I also agree with the idea that Naruto and Sasuke's speed should be measured through Kakashi. In Shonen Jump magazine, Naruto is called the strongest Shinobi and at the peak of his power. This should not be interpreted as just AP. Even though Kakashi is retired, he fought Base Koji's clone and there is nothing that shows retired Kakashi>Hokage Kakashi.

Some of you may say, "Well, Kakashi doesn't prefer to use the 1st gate." That's true, but we should not forget that the characters are compared by including what they can use in a possible encounter. Naruto hasn't used Kurama's power for a long time either. Can we think that the statement in Shonen Jump magazine is for Base or Sage Naruto? Also, if Kakashi accelerates 5x, doesn't that mean he can blitz Naruto?

Chidori also increases speed. I have a feeling that Chidori>1st gate's speed could be there, but there is no definite statement. Kakashi can use Chidori better thanks to his sharingan, but he doesn't feel the need to open Sharingan to use the 1st Gate. Correct me if I'm wrong, when using Chidori without Sharingan, the character had difficulty fighting due to the excessive acceleration of Chidori. I think Chidori>1st Gate.

Another argument is that Taijutsu is related to power and speed. If Naruto is better at taijutsu than Kakashi, it can be considered stronger and faster than him. We can't say that Kakashi doesn't use taijutsu because in the novel he defeats Lee in a taijutsu match. Naruto thinks that Kakashi's taijutsu is better than Lee's at the beginning of Shippuden.

Requesting the mods that are still here to look at this

I agree with the idea that characters are scaled based on their maximum potential. characters can gauge their opponent’s strength and decide whether using a multiplier like the First Gate is worthwhile, similar to how Naruto and Sasuke didn’t use MAS against Jigen or Isshiki, deeming it ineffective yet we know that this is their most powerful form, a form greater than the sum of their power.

If we don't scale using Max Potential/combat ability then Itachi's susano should be given a rating above FP Bijuudamas due to being stated stronger instead of taking into consideration what would happen in hypothetical scenarios

Which is exactly what is being argued right now

 

[Damage3245]

As for presentation I think of it like this
FTL+ with Majestic Attire Susano (Naruto and Sasuke were explicitly regarded as the only shinobi capable of presenting a meaningful challenge against Isshiki, despite the presence of First Gate Kakashi and the added speed advantage. For their combined efforts to render the additional speed advantage insignificant in the battle against Isshiki, puts their MAS speeds above Kakashi's first gate. [45.6c]

Okay, well currently I'm voting against that. Speed is not directly brought up as a factor.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Okay, well currently I'm voting against that. Speed is not directly brought up as a factor.

Outspeeding the enemies gives you chance for all sorts of shenanigans, be it smoke bombs or other sorts of distractions or harmful jutsu, having Kakashi there when they need ANY advantage they can get would be useful, speed should be the most important factor (for naruto battles at least)

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I don't mind Naruto getting a MAS added to his profile. I'm fine with the Kakashi multiplier but not with Isshiki scaling as it hinges on an assumption. If the translations are correct, I'm fine with Isshiki transformation multiplier. I'm also fine with the Naruto scaling above Isshiki speed part.

The 9 rasengan multiplier gonna be a no for me as that's not how we do it. I don't have much of an opinion yet on the Koji thing.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don't mind Naruto getting a MAS added to his profile. I'm fine with the Kakashi multiplier but not with Isshiki scaling as it hinges on an assumption. If the translations are correct, I'm fine with Isshiki transformation multiplier. I'm also fine with the Naruto scaling above Isshiki speed part.

The 9 rasengan multiplier gonna be a no for me as that's not how we do it. I don't have much of an opinion yet on the Koji thing.

Understood, Thank you

 

[Syncornize]

yeah ik, ima go edit it out and swap for a 2x

uh huh cool but I kinda crossed that section out when I conceded to Net so you're fighting ghosts buddy

IT MOST CERTAINLY IS NOT
You did not at all read my Section E arguments at all, there was no "strongest" kanji used that part
It was a clear and precise stated multiplier with valid feats against it

you probably mistook it for the isshiki>kakashi scaling parts

yeah, I had written the message before. Later I noticed that I had not sent it and I published it, I didn't notice your changes.


Section E talks about the x10 multiplie. You use kanji to give consistency to the context, an argument I questioned both for this and the consistency of the multiplier, I replied in the previous message.

KK and Jigen had at least a minimal relativity. If a multiplier of 10 appears,the difference between the two,should be a gap from being able to tag the opponent, the same gap should exist for the AP. This condition is not present, Isshiki is simply superior to KK but doesnt demonstrate a superiority equal to 8/9 or 10 times.

2. Isshiki’s Transformation and the 10x Multiplier

In Chapter 48, Upon Isshiki’s transformation, KK explicitly observes that Isshiki’s power has increased by an “order of magnitude”
beyond Jigen’s when noting it's instantaneous shrinking. The Japanese text uses the term Keta Chigai (ケタ違い), directly meaning
a “digit difference” or “order of magnitude difference. “Keta” represents a positional digit (like tens, hundreds, thousands) rather
than a loose or undefined increase paired with Chigai (違い) meaning difference, most often used to indicate a multiplication by 10
when moving from one “digit” level to the next.

Due to meaning “Digit Difference” in its literal sense this phrase is mathematically grounded, not merely rhetorical like the higher level
it has an established connotation as a 10x increase. (For qualitative increase the accurate word would instead be Dan Chigai [段違い]
meaning level difference)

So the accurate translation would be

This is why, in various manga contexts, “keta chigai” denotes a clear multiplier. A few examples of this phrase has been used to upgrade
off a few digits in the wiki previously are, Cero Oscura from BLEACH and Naruto God Tier Speed upgrades both make use of this phrase to denote
their digit differences

The VIZ English translation softens this to “another level,” which downplays the significance of the original language. “Another level” while
implying a qualitative improvement fitting for Dan Chigai [段違い] , lacks the numerical weight of “Keta Chigai” (ケタ違い) and as a result,
misrepresents the clear quantitative leap implied in the original Japanese.

Since KK said this in reference to how instantaneous the jutsu was it is referring to the shrinking speed. Thus, if Base Jigen’s jutsu speed is
set at 10c, Isshiki’s transformation—bearing this explicitly stated “keta chigai”—places his jutsu speed at a logical 100c.

---

The Kanji in the context, exactly as it is translated Isshiki is stronger, his power has increased, it's not said that it has increased 10 times in the statmant.
Your argument assumes that the reference of the sentence is necessarily to the common usage of the sentence.

So the elaboration is:
Since this is usually the case then it is true.

Using your reasoning, Kaguya's dimension should be scaled to planet level, since the kanji sekai usually means planet and can be associated with it.
Shibai or other characters are 4D because the kanji Koujigen is used which refers only to mathematical contexts.

everything should always be contextualized instead of looking at the single part


There has to be a realistic basis for why you should consider that level of gap, just like I said, it can only refer to the fact that you are stronger by not using common sense or simply exaggerating. I mentioned before how this would have been stated directly if it were so, it would have made more sense. There really isn't enough context in the statement and the action isn't linear with that increase in power.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

KK and Jigen had at least a minimal relativity. If a multiplier of 10 appears,the difference between the two,should be a gap from being able to tag the opponent, the same gap should exist for the AP. This condition is not present, Isshiki is simply superior to KK but doesnt demonstrate a superiority equal to 8/9 or 10 times.

Literally none of this is relevant

The Kanji in the context, exactly as it is translated Isshiki is stronger, his power has increased, it's not said that it has increased 10 times in the statmant.
Your argument assumes that the reference of the sentence is necessarily to the common usage of the sentence.
So the elaboration is:
Since this is usually the case then it is true.
Using your reasoning, Kaguya's dimension should be scaled to planet level, since the kanji sekai usually means planet and can be associated with it.
Shibai or other characters are 4D because the kanji Koujigen is used which refers only to mathematical contexts.
everything should always be contextualized instead of looking at the single part
There has to be a realistic basis for why you should consider that level of gap, just like I said, it can only refer to the fact that you are stronger by not using common sense or simply exaggerating. I mentioned before how this would have been stated directly if it were so, it would have made more sense. There really isn't enough context in the statement and the action isn't linear with that increase in power.

Nope
Sekai means world and world can mean define many things, the other straight up defines positional digits (10s, 100s, 1000s)
It's not a broad term with several meanings, it has one meaning which is Keta (Digit) Chigai (Difference)

Won't counter the bottom part, it's not coherent

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Sooo CRT Condition so far :

ABC basically isn't passing

Section D has 9 member agreements
2 mod agreements for full section D
2 mod agreements only for kakashi upgrades
4 mods disagreeing for Isshiki scaling to it

Section E has 6 member agreements
4 mod agreements
0 mods disagreeing

So the changes would be :
-Kakashi gets Gates in his profile
-Koji Base is changed from 9.12c to 10c
-Isshiki gets 100c with SukunaHikona
-BM Naruto gets 100c for combat

I’ll have to touch on the rest later.

Your evidence of him using it in combat is...?

I would request Damage and Tracer to give their final votes so we can conclude

 

[Damage3245]

K, I'll try to comment tomorrow.

EDIT: UchihaSlayer didn't agree with upgrading Kashin Koji to 10c, did he?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

K, I'll try to comment tomorrow.

EDIT: UchihaSlayer didn't agree with upgrading Kashin Koji to 10c, did he?

Slayer did not shut down the idea per se

He replied reasoning since their cross verse tiers are similar he shouldn’t get the speed upgrade but that’s incorrect due to the in-verse speed discrepancies being far higher

Isshiki can be Mach 5 along with Konohamaru if the speed statements never improve after shippuden it will never mean Konohamaru will be able to hang with Isshiki, so that reasoning is pure falsehood

I already have 2 mod agreements with regards to KK Speed upgrades with no opposition and them agreeing with the general idea so I didn’t count it, if you wish I will edit that and add it in

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

We haven't talked about the chidori argument I wrote yet. Chidori's speed amp>1. I think the gate could be speed amp. Kakashi feels the need to open the sharingan in order not to have any problems due to the speed Chidori gives him. He doesn't feel the need to open the Sharingan when using the 1st gate. Chidori is a technique he always uses anyway.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Bro cooked

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

We haven't talked about the chidori argument I wrote yet. Chidori's speed amp>1. I think the gate could be speed amp. Kakashi feels the need to open the sharingan in order not to have any problems due to the speed Chidori gives him. He doesn't feel the need to open the Sharingan when using the 1st gate. Chidori is a technique he always uses anyway.

I need to consult Minato's lord about this. Can someone with authority tag him?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I need to consult Minato's lord about this. Can someone with authority tag him?

You mean Sparkle? His message wall is there, I think that’s better to try than waiting for when a mod sees this and tags him

 

[SlendVeny]

We haven't talked about the chidori argument I wrote yet. Chidori's speed amp>1. I think the gate could be speed amp. Kakashi feels the need to open the sharingan in order not to have any problems due to the speed Chidori gives him. He doesn't feel the need to open the Sharingan when using the 1st gate. Chidori is a technique he always uses anyway.

Does the 1st Gate not amp perception speed?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Does the 1st Gate not amp perception speed?

Doesn't it increase all types of speeds by 5x in general? I didn't read the scan.

 

[SlendVeny]

Doesn't it increase all types of speeds by 5x in general? I didn't read the scan.

So, if it amps perception speed, he naturally wouldn't need Sharingan.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

You mean Sparkle? His message wall is there, I think that’s better to try than waiting for when a mod sees this and tags him

Makes sense, how did I not think of that?

 

[Damage3245]

So, if it amps perception speed, he naturally wouldn't need Sharingan.

Good point.

Also the fact that others like Guy and Rock Lee can use the Gates without requiring a Sharingan.

 

[SlendVeny]

Good point.

Also the fact that others like Guy and Rock Lee can use the Gates without requiring a Sharingan.

Nvm, I disagree now.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Doesn't it increase all types of speeds by 5x in general? I didn't read the scan.

Does more muscle energy enhance perception? I don't think so

 

[Floxy178]

By the way, is there anything implying that Kakashi literally needs sharingan for chidori? Like he can't do it without sharingan? If yes that'd mean he can't perform chidori using just perception speed amp given by 1st gate.

In this case: Sharingan perception amp > 1st gate perception amp

1st gate perception amp is enough for keeping up with 5x speed amp but isn't enough for chidori speed amp

That will make chidori more than 5x speed amp which we can take as at least 5x. But as I said earlier we need to prove that sharingan is only thing in Kakashi's arsenal which can help him to safely perform Chidori. At least this is only thing that comes to my mind for chidori argument.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I need to consult Minato's lord about this. Can someone with authority tag him?

No need I'm keeping watch of this thread

We haven't talked about the chidori argument I wrote yet. Chidori's speed amp>1. I think the gate could be speed amp. Kakashi feels the need to open the sharingan in order not to have any problems due to the speed Chidori gives him. He doesn't feel the need to open the Sharingan when using the 1st gate. Chidori is a technique he always uses anyway.

I think a better way to argue this would be to say CE Sasuke>5th Gate Lee despite the farmer's base speed only being Base Lee level. You could reason that the thing helping him surpass Lee is the Chidori amp. I wouldn't call it definitive tho cause Sasuke has other strengths than just stats. 1st Gate boosts you holistically so of course the Sharingan isn't needed to keep up with its enhanced speed.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

By the way, is there anything implying that Kakashi literally needs sharingan for chidori? Like he can't do it without sharingan? If yes that'd mean he can't perform chidori using just perception speed amp given by 1st gate.

In this case: Sharingan perception amp > 1st gate perception amp

1st gate perception amp is enough for keeping up with 5x speed amp but isn't enough for chidori speed amp

That will make chidori more than 5x speed amp which we can take as at least 5x. But as I said earlier we need to prove that sharingan is only thing in Kakashi's arsenal which can help him to safely perform Chidori. At least this is only thing that comes to my mind for chidori argument.

First Gate amplifying perception speed is headcanon, we don't assume it amps every speed, just bodily movements

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

By the way, is there anything implying that Kakashi literally needs sharingan for chidori? Like he can't do it without sharingan? If yes that'd mean he can't perform chidori using just perception speed amp given by 1st gate.

When he first used Chidori, it prevented him from running properly. Then, after he got Obito's Sharingan, he started using Chidori more comfortably.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

First Gate amplifying perception speed is headcanon, we don't assume it amps every speed, just bodily movements

It boosts your chakra which powers all your stats

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

It boosts your chakra which powers all your stats

the speed buff comes from more muscle energy not increased chakra
First Gate makes complete use of the muscular energy in the body

 

[SlendVeny]

First Gate amplifying perception speed is headcanon, we don't assume it amps every speed, just bodily movements

So Might Guy just has FTL Perception?