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Some people might not be aware it got removed, or believe it should never have been removed i guess. But since it was rejected it is off-topic for the thread i suppose.
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A Review of the speed of Naruto (Verse)
- Thread starter Damage3245
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Neutral on the Lightspeed stuff, but heavily disagree on removing False Darkness interception calc. It's wholly consistent for Kakashi to perform that, and taking Zetsu's statement as WoG is just wrong in my book.
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Kirin is a Lightning Style jutsu that utilizes the natural energy in the atmosphere, drawing on ambient lightning that Sasuke can directly control.Thus it can be enhanced speed-wise and even Ap-wise and sasuke enhanced its effects with other Justu.
However, let’s analyze what Zetsu stated. He claimed that Kirin “cannot be evaded,” which emphasizes its speed. Yet, this assertion is not absolute proof of its invincibility. Because In the same chapter, Itachi could activate his Susanoo and block before Kirin struck the ground an event that supposedly occurs in less than 1/1000th of a second. Thus, Zetsu’s and sasuke statement of it being undodgeable and unblockable is indeed hyperbolic and Itachi proved that.
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Purely natural lightning doesn't take up the form of a huge dragon and completely obliterate an entire mountain. Just sayin'.
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That is why we have 2 WOG statements
Properly explaining the ability. But no we ignore that and go with hypothetical statements that cause all manner of contradictions in the verse.
Saqphire
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Honestly, I kinda agree with some of these arguments, especially with lightspeed being a hard-cap for anyone who doesn't have Raikage-level physique or those who don't have feats with Light Fang or above, those are pretty blatant examples of Shippuden not being lightspeed until end-game
Idk why people are still in 2025 arguing that Kirin is lightspeed when it's is more often than not actually portrayed to be lightning-speed, most statements actually revealed it to be, surprise, an unavoidable natural lightning-attack which is consistent with the fastest alive Shinobi (pre-KCM/WM Obito) also being stated to have lightning-fast speed. The databooks that do say it's lightning-fast supports the in-manga primary canon statement that was written by Kishimoto to be mediated by Zetsu that lightning is unavoidable (and no Itachi never avoided it, the brother was down headfirst on the ground after it lmfao, at best you'd be arguing reaction speed for the Susano'o and at worst it's an aim-dodging feat). Zetsu is also never implied in the narrative to not be taken seriously, that's all headcanon to try to fit people's own narrative which goes against Kishimoto's own, or else Light Fang/Issen would never have been such a big deal in speed in-narrative. Sasuke also never states that he amped the speed of Kirin, he just redirects it
That said, I completely disagree with Issen and the Bijuu bombs not being lightspeed for the reasons you've entailed. The databook entry is supposed to give information about the jutsu itself which is consistent with pretty much every single databook entry ever talking about a jutsu when they're highlighting it's speed, example being Light Fang obviously, why would Kishimoto suddenly talk about Mifune's own striking speed when he's highlighting the jutsu itself? That makes no logical sense and just seems like an argument done in bad faith
Furthermore, using dialogue to cap a certain speed has never and will never be consistent with an established speed narrative, that's why talking has been universally decided as a free action in literally every verse that's beyond Mach 1, otherwise if we use talking as a counterpoint, Naruto wouldn't even reach Transonic as he'd be too fast to communicate what he'd be saying with sound/his tongue otherwise, which is everything but narratively consistent.
The Pain example is also just a giant outlier as that insinuates Naruto wouldn't even have human level striking speed, as we see him literally be up close and try to punch Pain yet he fails within one second, but he does throw a Rasenshuriken and create several dozens of clones at speeds far beyond speeds like sound in the same instance of the fight, it's just wonky and shouldn't be considered as an actual reliable example of these people's speed
Idk why people are still in 2025 arguing that Kirin is lightspeed when it's is more often than not actually portrayed to be lightning-speed, most statements actually revealed it to be, surprise, an unavoidable natural lightning-attack which is consistent with the fastest alive Shinobi (pre-KCM/WM Obito) also being stated to have lightning-fast speed. The databooks that do say it's lightning-fast supports the in-manga primary canon statement that was written by Kishimoto to be mediated by Zetsu that lightning is unavoidable (and no Itachi never avoided it, the brother was down headfirst on the ground after it lmfao, at best you'd be arguing reaction speed for the Susano'o and at worst it's an aim-dodging feat). Zetsu is also never implied in the narrative to not be taken seriously, that's all headcanon to try to fit people's own narrative which goes against Kishimoto's own, or else Light Fang/Issen would never have been such a big deal in speed in-narrative. Sasuke also never states that he amped the speed of Kirin, he just redirects it
That said, I completely disagree with Issen and the Bijuu bombs not being lightspeed for the reasons you've entailed. The databook entry is supposed to give information about the jutsu itself which is consistent with pretty much every single databook entry ever talking about a jutsu when they're highlighting it's speed, example being Light Fang obviously, why would Kishimoto suddenly talk about Mifune's own striking speed when he's highlighting the jutsu itself? That makes no logical sense and just seems like an argument done in bad faith
Furthermore, using dialogue to cap a certain speed has never and will never be consistent with an established speed narrative, that's why talking has been universally decided as a free action in literally every verse that's beyond Mach 1, otherwise if we use talking as a counterpoint, Naruto wouldn't even reach Transonic as he'd be too fast to communicate what he'd be saying with sound/his tongue otherwise, which is everything but narratively consistent.
The Pain example is also just a giant outlier as that insinuates Naruto wouldn't even have human level striking speed, as we see him literally be up close and try to punch Pain yet he fails within one second, but he does throw a Rasenshuriken and create several dozens of clones at speeds far beyond speeds like sound in the same instance of the fight, it's just wonky and shouldn't be considered as an actual reliable example of these people's speed
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Neither Light Fang nor Issen is implied to be such a big deal in the narrative.
They're significant for us as powerscalers in that we can use them to scale, but they're not anymore significant in-universe than a regular Jutsu.
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The 2 databook statements we have were translated as lightspeed, not lightning-fast speed. That being said I don't think it should matter to this Thread.
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MinatoSparkle
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Man imgur sucks sometimes
Saqphire
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?
Light Fang is literally stated to be unavoidable because of it's speed (and this was after people like Juubito was concluded) and Issen is worded to be extremely hyped because of it's speed. Even if powerscaling wasn't a thing, the databooks and the manga stuff state and imply that at the very least Light Fang is so fast it makes Six Paths Naruto go "WOAH!!" while dodging it, so it's not an out-of-universe thing for it to be a big deal, what is bro talking about
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Light Fang was used once in like one panel, and people don't get the impression at all that it was such a big deal move. It was never used again, nor was it hyped up in-universe.?
Light Fang is literally stated to be unavoidable because of it's speed (and this was after people like Juubito was concluded) and Issen is worded to be extremely hyped because of it's speed. Even if powerscaling wasn't a thing, the databooks and the manga stuff state and imply that at the very least Light Fang is so fast it makes Six Paths Naruto go "WOAH!!" while dodging it, so it's not an out-of-universe thing for it to be a big deal, what is bro talking about
The "whoa" there seems to be a reaction less from the speed, but more from Naruto not expecting it.
Testarossa002
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Even if your interpretation is true, there are still multiple scaling avenue for his Iaido that affects other high-tier characters. FKS Sasuke and Hanzo react to it rather easily and if you’re going with the narrative that he was only LS with KN0 amp, multiple characters who were relative to him in base would end up scaling to the rating
Uh, no. This is a statement made in a fictional setting. Not something that’s based in the real world. Unless there’s something that seriously contradicts it, the literal definition takes precedence. We more or less have default interpretations for these type of statements.
“Lightning speed” figurative
“Speed of lightning” literal
“Light like speed” figurative
“Speed of light” literal
The databook could have just used one of the billion instances where characters/techniques were described as “super fast” to describe Issen. Rather than give it an actual value
You and I have already debated this extensively here. I’d rather not have us repeat the same arguments (which spanned the better part of 12 pages) here.
Kirin is not a naturally occuring lightning
The very fact that supernatural energy is in it's creation makes it open to being amped or nerfed
If you attribute the enormous energy for it's 2 billion+ amp in AP, why are you ruling out the possibility of said energy amping the speed
You can’t say “Kirin is lightning speed and it caps a lot of characters” while also mentioning False Darkness as an adjoining point. False Darkness which Kakashi outran.
We have literal academy/genin ninjas do lightning timing feats
Whether these calcs are accurate or not doesn’t matter. They involve bottom tier ninjas dodging/reacting to lightning without any issues. If i wanted to, there are multiple ways to scale this to Part 1 Naruto and Sasuke
And no, Shikamaru wasn’t blitzed. He reacted to it by opening a scroll. Even choji had enough time to bring his arms to his face in a defensive posture. Plus, Shikamaru hardly scales to Hidan
You say this and use the scan now. Would you also accept Ay scaling above Haku using the logic? Anyways, I already tried to explain this section before
This is as much a low-end outlier as much as it's a high-end anti feat.
Net already addressed this section but it's ironic that you regard it as anti-feats but when it's actually reacted to, you say this
It's an opinion that's 5 years old but I doubt it's changed since then
Saqphire
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The second statement is a complete mistranslation and the official translation supports that argument. The first is why I said most and not all translations end up giving out lightning-speed, which is when we ask ourselves, if 3 out of four iterations all support Kirin being lightning speed, why should we take the one outlier-y statement that is a huge contradiction to narrative intent over the other ones?
Saqphire
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So you're just gonna go "nuh-uh" despite me showing you how it very much is a big-deal in-universe? It being used once doesn't matter lol Kishimoto's intent was clearly for the attack to be a hyped-up attack in speed, and Naruto not expecting the attack and dodging it rapidly literally implies he wasn't expecting the speed of it to be that fast, if it was such a slow attack Naruto woulda just blocked or ignored that shit
Testarossa002
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No
In fact, it's the follow up swing that can't be defended against. Not the actual beam
Credits to @Arc7Kuroi for the translation
MinatoSparkle
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I don't know why light speed attacks hyped up as fast means anything against Kirin. It literally has no antifeats other than being below Itachi's mental reaction speed over a long distance.
It quite literally uses the exact kanji for the scientific speed of light. Google Translate and DeepL are not that reliable.
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This is no point because the whole undodgeable hype was useless as a held-down Naruto casually moved FTL to dodge an impossible light-speed feat.
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Everything you've shown doesn't imply that at all. Both attacks were used once in a very explicitly casual manner, and was never hyped up like you seem to think it is.
Databooks aren't "in-universe". It's supplementary material.
Kishimoto's intent was to use a high-speed attack for Naruto to dodge in that instance. No implication of it being hyped-up.
Seeing that panel again, I actually think that the "whoa" was a response from Madara swinging the beam towards him after dodging it, rather than a response from the initial dodge.
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KaydeeX
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no way you brought google translate as being the “correct one”
KaydeeX
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Just to be clear on my stance, i’m neutral on the whole issen LS and those who scale, it wasn’t really my foothold to begin with.
Heavily disagree with mach 8k being a cap for the mid tiers. Not only is the current accepted calc lightning ranged, but it was also accepted in the Kirin follow up thread that Kirin should scale above what Sasuke scales to. I see nothing changed in that line of reasoning. Kirin could just upscale from whatever lightning-speed-ranged calc we have and it’ll still maintain its narrative.
Heavily disagree with mach 8k being a cap for the mid tiers. Not only is the current accepted calc lightning ranged, but it was also accepted in the Kirin follow up thread that Kirin should scale above what Sasuke scales to. I see nothing changed in that line of reasoning. Kirin could just upscale from whatever lightning-speed-ranged calc we have and it’ll still maintain its narrative.
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Thanks for all the comments so far everyone. Got a lot to go through here so I hope people don't mind waiting on my responses.
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I mean that's pretty clearly just a figure of speech given it gets avoided 100% of the time.
The really deadly thing about LF is that it has seemingly no wind up time and insane AP. In a verse where half of the characters rely on some sort of Analytical Prediction, an attack that can be immediately shot without even moving your arms and legs is really deadly even if not super fast.
I mean that really comes down to interpretation. Besides Issen there's also Mabuis jutsu and Daruis lasers as well as Hakus mirrors. Which regardless of the wikis standards, can be easily seen as Kishimoto purposely making light speed stuff pretty casual for the mid tiers.and Issen is worded to be extremely hyped because of it's speed. Even if powerscaling wasn't a thing, the databooks and the manga stuff state and imply that at the very least Light Fang is so fast it makes Six Paths Naruto go "WOAH!!" while dodging it, so it's not an out-of-universe thing for it to be a big deal, what is bro talking about
So if you look at it with light fang being the standard, Issen may seem like an outlier, but if you look at it from the other perspective it seems more like the standard.
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Well, naturally if you look at it from a different perspective then everything in the OP would be insane and every single character in Naruto would be FTL from Part 1 of the manga alone.
There's not much I can do to just change people's interpretation of the manga outright, so I'll just try my best in my follow-up responses to show how some of the counter-arguments don't properly address the objections I've brought up and there's more to suggest the proposed FTL ratings as being an outlier than there is to suggest that they aren't.
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That's understandable but you must see how/why a lot of other people might agree with that line of thinking right?
Afterall Kirin being impossible to evade was because of its speed not power, so it should include blocking speed regardless of which definition of the word you use.
I mean that doesn't exactly matter because it still means it's not unavoidable in-universe but that doesn't really matter.
I think Zetsu was just the hype man there, not actually meant for exposition. Like I said everything he says there is at best questionable and at worst just blatantly wrong.
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I know I said I'd be done but turns out I lied about it. Since I didn't see it covered well by anyone (maybe I just missed it).
I just want to point out that Mabuis jutsu damaging people isn't necessarily evidence against FTL combat speed ratings.
The thing is that Mabui transports characters across hundreds of kilometers at the speed of light. Naturally, air resistance and other relevant factors would stack over such a large distance resulting in damage to the body.
But that doesn't debunk the ability of these characters to move short combat-relevant distances at this speed. If anything, if someone as squishy as base Tsunade can travel across the country with only pretty minor surface level injuries I think it supports the idea that similarly and more durable characters should be capable of moving dozens of meters in quick outbursts at the same speed without negative consequences.
TLDR; just because traveling million meters hurts doesn't mean traveling 10 meters hurts
I just want to point out that Mabuis jutsu damaging people isn't necessarily evidence against FTL combat speed ratings.
The thing is that Mabui transports characters across hundreds of kilometers at the speed of light. Naturally, air resistance and other relevant factors would stack over such a large distance resulting in damage to the body.
But that doesn't debunk the ability of these characters to move short combat-relevant distances at this speed. If anything, if someone as squishy as base Tsunade can travel across the country with only pretty minor surface level injuries I think it supports the idea that similarly and more durable characters should be capable of moving dozens of meters in quick outbursts at the same speed without negative consequences.
TLDR; just because traveling million meters hurts doesn't mean traveling 10 meters hurts
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This is getting into the realm of semantics a bit but I'll try to explain why I interpret it the way that I do.
Firstly, Sasuke says that Kirin - like the Amaterasu - cannot be blocked or evaded. There do exist multiple different reasons for why the Amaterasu could be considered unblockable; first is related to why it's undodgeable in that as soon as the user looks at his target, the black flames ignite directly on his target. The second is that the black flames are just too lethal; if you raised up your arms to "block" the Amaterasu then the flames still ignite on your arms and can't be put out so even if you "block" it, you haven't really.
Sasuke doesn't personally elaborate on why Kirin can't be blocked or evaded, and mechanically Kirin doesn't work like Amaterasu does so there has to be different reasons for it. As for why it cannot be evaded? Zetsu directly comments on it and attributes to to the sheer speed of the jutsu. It's like basic storytelling; Kishimoto has Sasuke set something up: "I too have a jutsu that cannot be evaded." and in the next chapter he has Zetsu go "Ahh, now I know why it can't be evaded. The speed of lightning..." And then he explains it.
The unblockable part - I believe - simply comes it being on a wholly different scale than any other destructive lightning jutsu Sasuke could throw out. He blows up the entire hideout with it. Without Susano'o, there's nothing really Itachi could've done to block it or survive it.
For the record, when I'm arguing based on characters statements, I'm not arguing that they're omniscient, or all-knowing, or always correct, or infallible, or that there can't always be exceptions to their statements, etc.
Does that mean I think we can't ever use character statements? Of course not. Amaterasu is considered nigh-impossible to evade for a good chunk of the series, just because freaks like a ramped-up Raikage or Juubito can dodge it or counter it, does that mean all the earlier hype about it completely worthless? I don't think so.
Okay, but I don't think it makes that much sense to just discard the actual explanation he gives us. Personally I feel like the mechanics of Kirin are almost as straightforward as you can get in a shonen series.
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The whole "cannot be blocked or evaded" makes for a really bad argument in Naruto verse.
We saw amaterasu being evaded by Raikage and we saw Naruto blocking it with Kurama chakra cloak.
As I said before light fang was also evaded
Kirin was blocked by susanoo despite being supposedly impossible to block.
There was also Jiraya saying something about no one being capable of escaping his toad stomach jutsu yet Itachi escaped right away.
It's clear that all those statments are just hype to make the characters who managed to block/evade/dodge/escape seem much more powerful and/or faster.
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Except I'm talking about situations where Kishimoto stated those Jutsu to be "impossible to evade" or something like that and a few seconds later those Jutsu are evaded contradicting the original statement in the same episode/chapter. Aside the Amaterasu who took longer (although arguably Sasuke could be considered to have evaded during their fight) all others happened right away.
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Right - but my position is that they can be exceptions to a general rule. Not that the general rule itself is always wrong.
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It is when those statements serve only to hype up the Jutsu and fall back to their expectations seconds later, also the amount of exceptions ends up ridiculously high because for example there are multiple susanoo users who could block Kirin that way, there are at least 9 Bijuu who could use the chakra cloak to block Amaterasu, ect. If we consider the uses many characters have the tools to somehow evade said "impossible to evade" Jutsu.
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This is missing the key issue once again which is that the statements are always going to be limited by the character's own knowledge and experiences. Sasuke hasn't fought any of the Biju up to that point; Sasuke hasn't fought the Raikage yet, etc. Sasuke didn't even know what the Susano'o was.
That means that we don't take the statement as being absolute objective truth for every facet of the verse. That's of course not what I'm arguing in favor for, so you're tackling a strawman if you're thinking that. But that doesn't mean the statements have no use at all because there are things the characters do know about.
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He saw Naruto's chakra cloak and he knew Bijuu existed, he himself evaded the Jutsu with his snake Jutsu. Sasuke never met Kakuzo but you want to use Kirin as reason to downgrade his Jutsu too.
You are using those statements as the author's intent (author being omniscient) as a reason to downgrade huge part of the verse. You say that the databook info on Kirin is wrong despite being a author's statement made after the whole Zetsu scene, which would made it much more reliable a much better showing of author's intent, but you want to use a statement made with limited knowledge as a cap for the verse because "author's intent".
Apollonir.Scale
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I disagree for the reasons above.
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No it's not? the Mabui thing doesn't even involve physical bodies moving for you to assign the anti feat and it's full of holes everywhere
You can't even prove the caps apply outside the jutsu
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I agree with the OP for the majority, just wanted to drop in an say that. I'll comment further later.
MinatoSparkle
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I should probably note that I plan to make a full response to the OP at some point
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Please have mercy. I've already got to write out full responses first to Ghost and Testarossa.
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