2 vs 2 The Tag Team Championship Tournament: The Psychic Cleaners vs The Demon and the Spider

[DontTalkDT]

Alright, finally held my 1 hour lecture, so I can now focus on this.

Let me start by saying that I got another good showing of Junko just being a pain in the ass to hit.

Mikoto heard the dull sound of scraping concrete from up above.

Electricity crackled from her bangs. She maybe could have intercepted Hokaze with a lightning spear if the girl had dropped straight down, but Hokaze instead kicked off multiple walls to bounce around like a pinball and take an unpredictable route down. Rolling out of the way was the most Mikoto could manage.

Yeah, Misaka Mikoto, of all people, thinks that hitting Junko with lightning, of all things, is difficult.


Anyway, people seem focussed on the lifting strength thing so let's get to that.

Yes but now imagine the cat grabs your arms and legs, and you have to get the cat off you...

Why is there a need to get it off? You can just bang it against the floor until it's dead, while it hangs unto you. Damn, this metaphor turned into animal cruelty really fast.

But this is assuming that Spidey would just sit on Junko, which is quite frankly, a little dumb. If Spidey, say, grabbed Junko's wrists, she isn't breaking out of that hold. Similarly, if Junko tried that on Spidey, he'd be able to easily break out of her hold.

Yeah, but there's kinda no need for her to break out of Spidey using the wrist by force, when she can just kick him until he dies while he holds unto her.
Grappling does nothing for Spidey as there's no way he can grapple her so well that he can incap her for 24h via a grapple hold.


And that's not all. I'm sure we all know the saying "A chain is only as strong as its weakest link"? If you, for examples, were to chain Superman to a wall with indestructible chains, he would simply yank the chains so hard that the wall breaks and that way free himself.
Well, same thing for Junko. If Spidey hits her with a web, what really prevents her from just continuing to run around with the web sticking to her is that the web would also be attached to the floor. And while Spideys webs are a challenge, the floor is in comparison not very durable.
So the webs are actually not as incapacitating as is assumed here. A hit would not necessarily stop Junko from fighting or even from just tapping out.
He would need to wrap Junko up completely for that and Junko won't let that happen easily.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

So uh...

What should we do?

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Alright, finally held my 1 hour lecture, so I can now focus on this.

That's nice

Let me start by saying that I got another good showing of Junko just being a pain in the ass to hit.

Cool

Yeah, Misaka Mikoto, of all people, thinks that hitting Junko with lightning, of all things, is difficult.

Isn't lightning above, like, supersonic, which both of them have as their reaction speed/combat speed? I'm assuming this is through skill or some other type of thing, so that sounds good.

Anyway, people seem focussed on the lifting strength thing so let's get to that.

Why is there a need to get it off? You can just bang it against the floor until it's dead, while it hangs unto you. Damn, this metaphor turned into animal cruelty really fast.

I, I think they were referring to the grab as in pinning them down to the ground, meaning they'd have to escape the grasp somehow with the force punching them to the ground...
damn, this got dark fast...

Yeah, but there's kinda no need for her to break out of Spidey using the wrist by force, when she can just kick him until he dies while he holds unto her.
Grappling does nothing for Spidey as there's no way he can grapple her so well that he can incap her for 24h via a grapple hold.

And kicking wouldn't be an option of her feet were held down. Keep in mind, we are now talking about an up-close battle. Realistically, Spidey could hold Junko's wrist, pin her to the ground, and then start webbing her up to said ground. And if Spidey did that, there wouldn't be much room to try and break out of the webbing.

And that's not all. I'm sure we all know the saying "A chain is only as strong as its weakest link"? If you, for examples, were to chain Superman to a wall with indestructible chains, he would simply yank the chains so hard that the wall breaks and that way free himself.
Well, same thing for Junko. If Spidey hits her with a web, what really prevents her from just continuing to run around with the web sticking to her is that the web would also be attached to the floor. And while Spideys webs are a challenge, the floor is in comparison not very durable.
So the webs are actually not as incapacitating as is assumed here. A hit would not necessarily stop Junko from fighting or even from just tapping out.
He would need to wrap Junko up completely for that and Junko won't let that happen easily.

Thing is, wrapping her up isn't the only way to keep her incapped. Web her to the ground, she would hardly be able to do any sort of movement to break the ground below her and stand up. Because the webs would be pinning her down. If I had to draw a model as a visualization, imagine Junko gets knocked onto her back. Spidey takes the opportunity and starts webbing her up. Eventually, the webbing acts like a blanket, restraining Junko to the ground. Of course, this is if Spidey can hit her to initiate this.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

So uh...

What should we do?

I mean it’s 2/3 rn so unless we have more people vote we go with Demon Spider

 

[Pikaman]

I mean it’s 2/3 rn so unless we have more people vote we go with Demon Spider

We shouldn’t make any verdicts now, wait for arguments and grace before putting through a team in a very close match off of minimal votes, Jericho v Tsukasa was 7-5 and was pretty much 5-6 hours of constant debate at one point totalling 4 pages across the entire match lmao

 

[DontTalkDT]

Isn't lightning above, like, supersonic, which both of them have as their reaction speed/combat speed? I'm assuming this is through skill or some other type of thing, so that sounds good.

Yeah, by context it's because she's hard to aim at. I don't think Junko is at the level of Gunha were she could actually dodge it via reactions.

I, I think they were referring to the grab as in pinning them down to the ground, meaning they'd have to escape the grasp somehow with the force punching them to the ground...
damn, this got dark fast...

Yeah, but that's thing thing: If he pins her to the ground what is preventing her from just lifting him up? Despite his lifting strength he still just weighs like 70kg or something. Lifting Strength doesn't make it harder for someone else to lift you, because it doesn't increase your weight. Neither could pin the other down to the floor, as they are both strong enough to lift each others weight.

And kicking wouldn't be an option of her feet were held down. Keep in mind, we are now talking about an up-close battle. Realistically, Spidey could hold Junko's wrist, pin her to the ground, and then start webbing her up to said ground. And if Spidey did that, there wouldn't be much room to try and break out of the webbing.

I seriously doubt that Spidey can get her into a situation where he pins down all four of her limbs. For that kind of thing he would need to massively outskill her or something which, given her speed advantage after boosting, is probably impossible.

Thing is, wrapping her up isn't the only way to keep her incapped. Web her to the ground, she would hardly be able to do any sort of movement to break the ground below her and stand up. Because the webs would be pinning her down. If I had to draw a model as a visualization, imagine Junko gets knocked onto her back. Spidey takes the opportunity and starts webbing her up. Eventually, the webbing acts like a blanket, restraining Junko to the ground. Of course, this is if Spidey can hit her to initiate this.

Alright, the situation of Junko getting knocked unto her back is already hard to achieve.

And then... nah. Yeah, he can blanket her, but she can still just destroy the ground below herself. Spidey's webs might be strong, but there is no way for her to be too weak to just break simple stone below her.
In fact, Junko can strip away a concrete wall with just her grip strength:

But that was why she showed no mercy or restraint. The ringlet curls girl used both hands to grab Acid’s wrist with all her might.

This girl could bench press more than a ton and she could strip away a concrete wall with just her grip strength. But after boosting herself in a way similar to Rampage Dress, Acid’s slender arm showed no sign of the bones or muscles snapping.

- Toaru Majutsu no Index: Railgun SS3, Chapter 7 Part 4

Heck, she once cracked a wall by accidentally leaning on it. So yeah, constraining her with the ground won't work.


Btw. found a Junko respect thread. Thought I would post it as you did one for Spidey:

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I'm guessing this may have to be settled with a coin toss if opinions don't change. I saw that happen with another tournament

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[DontTalkDT]

Btw., in case it wasn't clear and accounted for, I vote for my team.

I think Kenny and Junko have somewhat better synergy, since Junko will in-character tap out when that is a good thing to do. And I see Kenny's supernatural stuff, like the time freeze, defeat Baki. Personally, I think Kenny will beat Baki before Junko and Spiderman finish.

 

[Pikaman]

I'm guessing this may have to be settled with a coin toss if opinions don't change. I saw that happen with another tournament

Edit: Ninja'd

Coin Toss is for an Inconclusive Grace, we just let people vote on what arguments convince them more, people lose debates without conceding all the time lol, I know back when I was kinda new here I fought the losing battle of Shenhe v Deku for 3 pages

 

[Pikaman]

Personally, I think Kenny will beat Baki before Junko and Spiderman finish.

Well the two groups aren’t fighting at the same time

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Yeah, by context it's because she's hard to aim at. I don't think Junko is at the level of Gunha were she could actually dodge it via reactions.

On a side note, any way to watch these "A certain adjective noun" series? They seem interesting.

Yeah, but that's thing thing: If he pins her to the ground what is preventing her from just lifting him up? Despite his lifting strength he still just weighs like 70kg or something. Lifting Strength doesn't make it harder for someone else to lift you, because it doesn't increase your weight. Neither could pin the other down to the floor, as they are both strong enough to lift each others weight.

I guess that makes sense, but from my point of view, I'm seeing it as Spidey can lift "stronger", so he could simply push back against Junko's attempt to push Spidey away.

I seriously doubt that Spidey can get her into a situation where he pins down all four of her limbs. For that kind of thing he would need to massively outskill her or something which, given her speed advantage after boosting, is probably impossible.

Yeah, that's why I'm saying it's an "if", because there is a chance for him to do so, since his Spidey Sense alerts Peter, even if he can't see what's going on. Peter even has some sort of precognition, as he was able to sense an explosion before it was even going to happen.

Alright, the situation of Junko getting knocked unto her back is already hard to achieve.

Yeah, that's agreeable there.

And then... nah. Yeah, he can blanket her, but she can still just destroy the ground below herself. Spidey's webs might be strong, but there is no way for her to be too weak to just break simple stone below her.
In fact, Junko can strip away a concrete wall with just her grip strength:

Yeah, but the point I'm trying to make, is that if she's blanketed by the web, her movement would be limited. She wouldn't be able to move her arms or legs up, because they'd be restricted from doing so. Man, I hope I'm making sense here.

Heck, she once cracked a wall by accidentally leaning on it. So yeah, constraining her with the ground won't work.

Yeah but leaning into a wall, and leaning into the ground, are two different things. A wall has an empty space past it. Meanwhile with this location, I don't think leaning against the ground will let her escape.

Btw. found a Junko respect thread. Thought I would post it as you did one for Spidey:

I'll be sure to read it, fo help boost my knowledge on her.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Also, this thread really isn't getting the most attention from the other voters, isnt it

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well the two groups aren’t fighting at the same time

I know. What I mean is that, since Junko will tap out when things get hard, the Kenny vs Baki fight will happen and will likely end in Kenny's favour. Or that, if multiple tap outs happen, the fight ultimately end when the 9-C fights.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I know. What I mean is that, since Junko will tap out when things get hard, the Kenny vs Baki fight will happen and will likely end in Kenny's favour. Or that, if multiple tap outs happen, the fight ultimately end when the 9-C fights.

Really? Was that stated in the rules? If so I need to read more.

 

[Pikaman]

Really? Was that stated in the rules? If so I need to read more.

Yeah in tag team matches only one group of either 9-Bs or 9-Cs are fighting at a time, with the exception of tornado matches

 

[DemonicDude]

Junko has far more versatility as well as intelligence and better handling of her psychic powers to prevent and defeat Spiderman who only seems to have one schtick of webbing her, so I'm leaning towards my team after DT's clearification on the lifting strength above.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Yeah in tag team matches only one group of either 9-Bs or 9-Cs are fighting at a time, with the exception of tornado matches

Oh no, I meant the "tagging out too many time" part DT mentioned

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Junko has far more versatility as well as intelligence and better handling of her psychic powers to prevent and defeat Spiderman who only seems to have one schtick of webbing her, so I'm leaning towards my team after DT's clearification on the lifting strength above.

Didn't you already put in your vote earlier? Also, Peter's intelligence is. He's the same dude that made an antidote to an intelligence enhancing drug, tracked someone through the frequencies of their phone, and managed to distinguish reality from the tricks that were implanted into his head and figured out it was a form of telepathic trickery. Peter is smart. Let's not forget Peter also has a great handle of his own powers, so he knows what he can do.

 

[Pikaman]

Oh no, I meant the "tagging out too many time" part DT mentioned

Oh there’s no limit on how many times you can tag out

 

[DontTalkDT]

On a side note, any way to watch these "A certain adjective noun" series? They seem interesting.

Netflix currently has the first two seasons of Railgun and Index, if that's an option.

I guess that makes sense, but from my point of view, I'm seeing it as Spidey can lift "stronger", so he could simply push back against Junko's attempt to push Spidey away.

He could push against that, but as a result he would push himself up to the same result. I don't know how to explain it better without getting into physics... so let's get into physics.

Newton's third law: If an object A exerts a force on object B, then object B must exert a force of equal magnitude and opposite direction back on object A.

I.e. if you push something it pushes against you with equal force. So why is it that when we push something the object moves but we don't move? Because we have ground below our feet. We cancel out the force that the object exerts on us by pushing on the ground in turn. Having the ground to push against is very essential for that.

So, the problem with pushing something downwards is that you have nothing against you can push so as to cancel out the force of the pushing. Hence the force of the pushing will affect you as well and, if that force is greater than the force of gravity, you get pushed upwards i.e. you get lifted.

To give an analogy: Consider two coil springs, a strong and a weak one, and stack them on top of each other in a compressed state (stong one on top). What you happen isn't that the upper (strong) spring would extend downwards with the lower (weak) spring getting compressed. Instead, they would both just fully extend.

Yeah, that's why I'm saying it's an "if", because there is a chance for him to do so, since his Spidey Sense alerts Peter, even if he can't see what's going on. Peter even has some sort of precognition, as he was able to sense an explosion before it was even going to happen.

...sure, but... I still just don't see that happening against a skilled faster opponent with Junko's dodging capabilities. I don't think his precog is so immensely abusable that he would just predict the flow of the entire battle to orchestrate that unlikely event.

Yeah, but the point I'm trying to make, is that if she's blanketed by the web, her movement would be limited. She wouldn't be able to move her arms or legs up, because they'd be restricted from doing so. Man, I hope I'm making sense here.


Yeah but leaning into a wall, and leaning into the ground, are two different things. A wall has an empty space past it. Meanwhile with this location, I don't think leaning against the ground will let her escape.

If the ground shatters it will let her escape and the ground can still shatter.

She is strong enough to make it even without having to move her arms and legs much because, as said, even just her grip is strong enough to strip away stone. Then her whole body can easily rip out the parts of the floor the web blanket is attached to.

Basically, the assumption your mistaken at is that she would need some kind of runup to destroy simple floor.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Oh no, I meant the "tagging out too many time" part DT mentioned

I didn't say anything about tagging out too many times, though?

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Question how are new crt gonna affect character? Because Baki characters are getting something OP

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Netflix currently has the first two seasons of Railgun and Index, if that's an option.

Hopefully it's on the U.S Netflix service.

He could push against that, but as a result he would push himself up to the same result. I don't know how to explain it better without getting into physics... so let's get into physics.

Newton's third law: If an object A exerts a force on object B, then object B must exert a force of equal magnitude and opposite direction back on object A.

I.e. if you push something it pushes against you with equal force. So why is it that when we push something the object moves but we don't move? Because we have ground below our feet. We cancel out the force that the object exerts on us by pushing on the ground in turn. Having the ground to push against is very essential for that.

So, the problem with pushing something downwards is that you have nothing against you can push so as to cancel out the force of the pushing. Hence the force of the pushing will affect you as well and, if that force is greater than the force of gravity, you get pushed upwards i.e. you get lifted.

To give an analogy: Consider two coil springs, a strong and a weak one, and stack them on top of each other in a compressed state (stong one on top). What you happen isn't that the upper (strong) spring would extend downwards with the lower (weak) spring getting compressed. Instead, they would both just fully extend.

Very good explanation on this subject. It does give me a better understanding at what you're talking about. But couldn't Spidey also push his body forward while he's also pushing downward? Just a genuine question.

...sure, but... I still just don't see that happening against a skilled faster opponent with Junko's dodging capabilities. I don't think his precog is so immensely abusable that he would just predict the flow of the entire battle to orchestrate that unlikely event.

Yeah it probably isnt abusable, but I'm saying it would help out if Junko did end up faster.

If the ground shatters it will let her escape and the ground can still shatter.

She is strong enough to make it even without having to move her arms and legs much because, as said, even just her grip is strong enough to strip away stone. Then her whole body can easily rip out the parts of the floor the web blanket is attached to.

Basically, the assumption your mistaken at is that she would need some kind of runup to destroy simple floor.

I get where you're coming from, but would she really be able to break the ground that deep to escape the web? And keep in mind, the web is sticky, so she'd still be stuck to it a bit. Yeah, she could have an easier time trying to escape it, but it's not like Spidey wouldn't let her continue.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I know. What I mean is that, since Junko will tap out when things get hard, the Kenny vs Baki fight will happen and will likely end in Kenny's favour.

I didn't say anything about tagging out too many times, though?

Sorry, guess I misread there.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Also, who has the higher stamina between the two?

 

[DemonicDude]

Didn't you already put in your vote earlier?

yes I did.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Jericho v Tsukasa was 7-5

It was actually 7-4 in Jericho's favor.

 

[DemonicDude]

If the ground shatters it will let her escape and the ground can still shatter.

Yes ground did shatter of this location as you can see from the clip here

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I just now realized that I'm always arguing for characters in these tournaments that have no supporters

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I just now realized that I'm always arguing for characters in these tournaments that have no supporters

Relatable. I was the only supporter of Johnny Test (and I'm still the only supporter kinda), so I can relate.

 

[DemonicDude]

Johnny Test vs Johnny Gargano = True 5 Star classic
#BookItVince

 

[Pikaman]

Relatable. I was the only supporter of Johnny Test (and I'm still the only supporter kinda), so I can relate.

Witch vs Johnny Test was probably never gonna work because it was pretty much just me and you who had any interest in either of the verses

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Johnny Test vs Johnny Gargano = True 5 Star classic
#BookItVince

Loser gets Johnny removed from their name.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Witch vs Johnny Test was probably never gonna work because it was pretty much just me and you who had any interest in either of the verses

Fr. It's hard being the only supporter in a verse.

The only way I can get a Johnny Test matchup popular is if I put Johnny against someone from a verse that has tons of supporters.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I tried making Beyond the Grave matches, but the only one that got any sort of attention was Grave vs Wolf. Still my holy grail of matches, besides Mash vs Luffy.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Mash vs Luffy.

I made a Johnny vs Luffy rematch thread a few days ago, and it started going good at first, but now it's dead, and now the only comments you see is me bumping lmao

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Johnny Test vs Johnny Gargano = True 5 Star classic
#BookItVince

I want a Johnny Gargano profile now...

 

[Pikaman]

I think most debating has been done so we should contact people to vote

 

[DemonicDude]

If I get motivation then I'll make it next week maybe

 

[DontTalkDT]

Question how are new crt gonna affect character? Because Baki characters are getting something OP

Don't tempt me to start upgrading Junko.

Very good explanation on this subject. It does give me a better understanding at what you're talking about. But couldn't Spidey also push his body forward while he's also pushing downward? Just a genuine question.

I don't see how that would be possible? (Unless you mean a different direction with forward than I think you do)

Yeah it probably isnt abusable, but I'm saying it would help out if Junko did end up faster.

Well, no denying that it would help. Just don't think it would allow him to get Junko into super complex holds and stuff.

I get where you're coming from, but would she really be able to break the ground that deep to escape the web? And keep in mind, the web is sticky, so she'd still be stuck to it a bit. Yeah, she could have an easier time trying to escape it, but it's not like Spidey wouldn't let her continue.

Yes ground did shatter of this location as you can see from the clip here

Seeing this, I'm quite confident that the answer is yes. And once she's free she has enough time to tap out, remove the nets and, if necessary, tap in again IMO.

Also, who has the higher stamina between the two?

Their stamina sections are so vague... idk.