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DC/Vertigo Cosmology Redo(Part 1 of 2)

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What do our staff members currently need to evaluate here? Only what is written in your opening post in this thread?

Also, what is the current staff tally here? 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
What do our staff members currently need to evaluate here? Only what is written in your opening post in this thread?

Also, what is the current staff tally here? 🙏
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Just what’s on the OP. It’s one for agree(Qwas) and one for disagree(Deagon) and one for neutral(Elizio). Though Ultima said he would soon look into this thread.
 
If these are meant to be literal R>F stuff then I suppose I could see 1-A, neutral on the High 1-A to tier 0 stuff. Though idk how much of this would be consistent given the strict standards on R>F stuff, so I'll wait for experts to elaborate on this subject matter before I make a final vote.
 
Theglassman12 said:
If these are meant to be literal R>F stuff then I suppose I could see 1-A, neutral on the High 1-A to tier 0 stuff. Though idk how much of this would be consistent given the strict standards on R>F stuff, so I'll wait for experts to elaborate on this subject matter before I make a final vote.
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That’s fair. Supposedly, Mr. Ultima is checking upon this “shortly” but I believe that I discuss all these tiering with him prior to making this CRT.
 
I’ve decided to remove the previous proposal for Vertigo ie the miscellaneous portion:

Miscellaneous:​

All of Creation is mapped by the Tree of Life and its sefirot. The weirdness of this comes with the fact that there's apparently a Monad, and Keter is described as an “unknowable, irreducible, all-encompassing” and “boundless apogee.” Very descriptive things for 0 ratings. Not to mention the mention of Monad. Plus, the Tree of Life could give a sense of 1-A rating scaling of five or more layers of 1-A. However, that's for you guys to decide.
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It will not be considered miscellaneous for part.2 which would only focus on Vertigo, and that thread will specifically only tackle getting Vertigo tiering to High 1-A/0(it may go in the queue, I have no problem with that). That specific thread will also fixates on more inclusions of writer outside just Gaiman and Carey and their stories.
 
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VeryGoofyToddler said:
I’ve decided to remove the previous proposal for Vertigo ie the miscellaneous portion:

It will not be considered miscellaneous for part.2 which would only focus on Vertigo, and that thread will specifically only tackle getting Vertigo tiering to High 1-A/0(it may go in the queue, I have no problem with that). That specific thread will also fixates on more inclusions of writer outside just Gaiman and Carey and their stories.
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Wow. I wasn't aware Vertigo gave all of those references. What changes to the God Tiers if The Presence ends up 0 ?
 
I haven't read anything outside of the OP, so, if there is anything I've missed, do tell me.

Anyhow. For DeMatteis: Yeah, the Divine Presence is obviously Tier 0. Pralaya's true form being High 1-A+ is fine by me. I don't see anything whatsoever that makes the material planes 1-A, though. The only 1-A things I see here are the metaphysical planes and the Collective Unconscious.

For Vertigo: Broadly, I can see the Dreaming and etc. being 1-A, but I have a few points of skepticism regarding them. Mostly because there are several points in which beings from the metaphysical realms go to the physical realms, and there is never really any change in them at all despite the different location. In particular, Lilith outright brings the Silver City down to the material plane in Lucifer, and the City itself started out as a construction in the normal world according to it.

Regardless, Night is certainly 1-A, yeah, as is Time. The Presence scaling to them is fine by me.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I haven't read anything outside of the OP, so, if there is anything I've missed, do tell me.

Anyhow. For DeMatteis: Yeah, the Divine Presence is obviously Tier 0. Pralaya's true form being High 1-A+ is fine by me. I don't see anything whatsoever that makes the material planes 1-A, though. The only 1-A things I see here are the metaphysical planes and the Collective Unconscious.
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The explanation really boils down to how you view the layering:

  1. The conservative route would be assuming that each “plane” is a hierarchical layer. Since there are limitless planes of existence and assuming each one has R>F which I indicated from the FAQ then sure in total the totality of Creation is 1-A+
  2. The higher route comes from “everything being a layer within a layer.” The material composition would have layers within it as the stories mention several times they are synonyms which all elude terms like worlds within worlds, dreams within dreams, etc…That would beget 1-A from the start of the material or at least the first layer of the material plane. The metaphysical plane transcends the material in the manner of its entire hierarchy of dreams within dreams would give it a High 1-A while the Ocean of Dream, a High 1-A+ plainly from holding all things below it as a dream just like God dreaming of all existence as a dream, likewise.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
For Vertigo: Broadly, I can see the Dreaming and etc. being 1-A, but I have a few points of skepticism regarding them. Mostly because there are several points in which beings from the metaphysical realms go to the physical realms, and there is never really any change in them at all despite the different location. In particular, Lilith outright brings the Silver City down to the material plane in Lucifer, and the City itself started out as a construction in the normal world according to it.
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I wouldn't say there are “several examples” though the Silver City being an example really boils to it being part of the Universe as opposed to a transcendental realm like Heaven, in its entirety.

That's really due to how the Lucifer series depicts the Silver City in contrast to the Sandman.

Although, I would say “people” going to these realms really comes boils down to:
  1. They're not fully human or in retrospect “they're special.”
  2. Most times there are specific conditions and they don't naturally just venture there at will.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
For Vertigo: Broadly, I can see the Dreaming and etc. being 1-A, but I have a few points of skepticism regarding them. Mostly because there are several points in which beings from the metaphysical realms go to the physical realms, and there is never really any change in them at all despite the different location. In particular, Lilith outright brings the Silver City down to the material plane in Lucifer, and the City itself started out as a construction in the normal world according to it.

Regardless, Night is certainly 1-A, yeah, as is Time. The Presence scaling to them is fine by me.
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the City was downed to Armaggedon. So we still cannot talk about a material plane level here. Armaggedon is the plain just below the City. In fact, this was bound to happen after Yahweh left the Universe and Michael died on Yggdrasil. Lilim under the command of Lilith and the angels under the command of Sandalphon would deal the final blow.

So, as said above, those who travel to higher realms are abnormal people and cannot do this when they want. In the Books of Magic, it is mentioned that there are keys to the Worlds. This is actually a metaphorical thing, as the beings and environments that descend from the higher realms to the lower ones do not change at all. Their true bodies are not like that. For now, 1-A is quite reasonable for the Dreaming and other important realms. The next CRT will try to get them to High 1-A.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I haven't read anything outside of the OP, so, if there is anything I've missed, do tell me.
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Also the important thing that the OP doesn't have and that we talked about by the way is that there will be another CRT for Vertigo. This is based on a wider range of references.

For a brief overview:
VeryGoofyToddler said:

Miscellaneous:​

This section is continued and will be added to the OP. However, I'll make clear any of the information present in these sections is meant to illicit that they can be possibly used. This means they're not direct and coherent things to be used if the general consensus favors not using them.

The House of Mystery is considered an ontological diagesis. This simply means the structure of reality in the story is being told through a medium. That medium is the House of Mystery.

The entirety of all realms or more so stories told by the mystery of the House are pure “conception(no more or less).” They act as flaws without perfect unity which is called Omneity which in easy terms just means allness.

For example, there's a world called Archetypal Forest in the storyline literally called “Thesis.” As a place that's beset by unreality in all directions. The residents there being literal what and if.

Then another place is called “a place that is not a place, that exists between things that are and things that are not known. Between the substance and the sense. Between shape and the form. The word and the thought. It has no name, though some call it the space between.”

All of that is a “possibility” taking effect as just a story, a story of a world that has could be and what if. Which would be important later.

A garden in fights between cats and birds, a realm older than Eden, Heaven, and Hell. Where even infinitesimal dung contains entire Universes, since this is Vertigo, this is a non-fancy way of saying Creation/Multiverse.

Now, why is this important. Well, all these stories/worlds are to the resident “more real than reality itself.” All its connection point connects all “possible worlds.”

Now, let's look at High 1-A:

Hmmm. I don't know about you but the House of Mystery kinda gives off that vibe.
Click to expand...
 
LazyMortician said:
Also the important thing that the OP doesn't have and that we talked about by the way is that there will be another CRT for Vertigo. This is based on a wider range of references.

For a brief overview:
Click to expand...
That one will be not looked for. Hence why I didn't add it to the OP.
 
LazyMortician said:
Still, it would be good for him to take a look.
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I've already discussed it with him. However, I clarified some points for both aspects of the Cosmology. If he's willing to read what I said. I'm confident all the ratings I put in the OP will be accepted. He's weary of J.M. DeMatteis Planes just being 1-A which is flat-out wrong since he's only using this OP as a point of reference as he mentioned if he missed anything, let him know.

For Vertigo, we want to be clear on establishing that some of the few times, people go there as:
  1. Not something that regularly happens.
  2. Requires some things to even get there.
  3. It can't always happen when they want.
  4. It almost always has context.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
I've already discussed it with him. However, I clarified some points for both aspects of the Cosmology. If he's willing to read what I said. I'm confident all the ratings I put in the OP will be accepted. He's weary of J.M. DeMatteis Planes just being 1-A which is flat-out wrong since he's only using this OP as a point of reference as he mentioned if he missed anything, let him know.

For Vertigo, we want to be clear on establishing that some of the few times, people go there as:
  1. Not something that regularly happens.
  2. Requires some things to even get there.
  3. It can't always happen when they want.
  4. It almost always has context.
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If he wants to clear his doubts, he can think about what we said and if he still doesn't understand it, he can continue talking. Frankly, I sense a strange "inability" for Material plane scaling. I would like you to open this for me too. It makes sense to me if we assume that metaphysical levels are transcendent compared to the intertwined levels of reality and dream. In my opinion, the only problem for J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology is the fate of the material planes. But I think we got the confirmation we were looking for from Ultima regarding Vertigo. We now have two staff approvals.
 
LazyMortician said:
If he wants to clear his doubts, he can think about what we said and if he still doesn't understand it, he can continue talking. Frankly, I sense a strange "inability" for Material plane scaling. I would like you to open this for me too. It makes sense to me if we assume that metaphysical levels are transcendent compared to the intertwined levels of reality and dream. In my opinion, the only problem for J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology is the fate of the material planes. But I think we got the confirmation we were looking for from Ultima regarding Vertigo. We now have two staff approvals.
Click to expand...
How I tiered that was explained here:
VeryGoofyToddler said:
The explanation really boils down to how you view the layering:

  1. The conservative route would be assuming that each “plane” is a hierarchical layer. Since there are limitless planes of existence and assuming each one has R>F which I indicated from the FAQ then sure in total the totality of Creation is 1-A+
  2. The higher route comes from “everything being a layer within a layer.” The material composition would have layers within it as the stories mention several times they are synonyms which all elude terms like worlds within worlds, dreams within dreams, etc…That would beget 1-A from the start of the material or at least the first layer of the material plane. The metaphysical plane transcends the material in the manner of its entire hierarchy of dreams within dreams would give it a High 1-A while the Ocean of Dream, a High 1-A+ plainly from holding all things below it as a dream just like God dreaming of all existence as a dream, likewise.
Click to expand...
The reason I prefer the option two is pretty blatantly obvious and clear. All of Creation is described as an “Illusion.” In this Illusion or Dream more illusions and dreams make up the foundation of all of Creation. Each plane has layers upon itself as I explained in this Cosmology blog:

vsbattles.com

J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology Revision

Hi, guys, this post is in regard to pointing out and structuring of J.M. DeMatteis's Cosmology with what he has written in his stories. Before we begin, I would like to mention that this specifically goes with what he had said within the story and a few linking points in some interviews, talks...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

Each plane is infinite and thus infinitely layered because the idea is someone else is always dreaming of someone else, everything we see is a byproduct of another higher layer in the dream. That's why I believe 1-A+ was warranted. Not to mention, if the material plane is 1-A+ as a hierarchy of R>F ie dreams within dreams, worlds within worlds, thoughts within thoughts, etc…then the metaphysical plane is already accepted as “transcending” the material plane thus any framework of the material plane(R>F) is in turn being superseded by the higher plane hence why I gave it High 1-A.


My final reason for High 1-A+ boils down to the Ocean of Dreams. It's the highest you can go within Creation where one soul no longer journeys but is in flux on nearing the Oneness of God. At this point, they're dreaming of all of Creation below them up to the metaphysical planes, in which the thing itself is one as well. Their relation is like that of God, God dreams of the entirety of existence, while they dream of the Cosmology below hence why in Willworld it mentions “What if someone is dreaming of us.” Then they’re awakened by the “Avatar” which is when they realize they are God and they dreamt up all that through their experiences and journey in life.
 
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Antvasima said:
Ultima's evaluation above seems fine to me. 🙏
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I would wait because I've sent him some of those important reasons. Plus, his agreement with most of the portion is cool and all. However, we need him to just fully agree, or if he really sees it as something else then a compromise can be set.
 
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Karllkraft said:
Why Timothy hunter was never on the agenda
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Typically, it is easier to scale based on species. Thus, if say Dream gets a certain rating then it almost always applies to the rest of his family. Plus, fewer appearances means an easier time finding the scaling and feats necessary.

He is the lead character in Books of Magic which most of the time is pretty boring.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
I haven't read anything outside of the OP, so, if there is anything I've missed, do tell me.

Anyhow. For DeMatteis: Yeah, the Divine Presence is obviously Tier 0. Pralaya's true form being High 1-A+ is fine by me. I don't see anything whatsoever that makes the material planes 1-A, though. The only 1-A things I see here are the metaphysical planes and the Collective Unconscious.
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What do you think of below?
VeryGoofyToddler said:
How I tiered that was explained here:

The reason I prefer the option two is pretty blatantly obvious and clear. All of Creation is described as an “Illusion.” In this Illusion or Dream more illusions and dreams make up the foundation of all of Creation. Each plane has layers upon itself as I explained in this Cosmology blog:

vsbattles.com

J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology Revision

Hi, guys, this post is in regard to pointing out and structuring of J.M. DeMatteis's Cosmology with what he has written in his stories. Before we begin, I would like to mention that this specifically goes with what he had said within the story and a few linking points in some interviews, talks...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

Each plane is infinite and thus infinitely layered because the idea is someone else is always dreaming of someone else, everything we see is a byproduct of another higher layer in the dream. That's why I believe 1-A+ was warranted. Not to mention, if the material plane is 1-A+ as a hierarchy of R>F ie dreams within dreams, worlds within worlds, thoughts within thoughts, etc…then the metaphysical plane is already accepted as “transcending” the material plane thus any framework of the material plane(R>F) is in turn being superseded by the higher plane hence why I gave it High 1-A.


My final reason for High 1-A+ boils down to the Ocean of Dreams. It's the highest you can go within Creation where one soul no longer journeys but is in flux on nearing the Oneness of God. At this point, they're dreaming of all of Creation below them up to the metaphysical planes, in which the thing itself is one as well. Their relation is like that of God, God dreams of the entirety of existence, while they dream of the Cosmology below hence why in Willworld it mentions “What if someone is dreaming of us.” Then they’re awakened by the “Avatar” which is when they realize they are God and they dreamt up all that through their experiences and journey in life.
Click to expand...
 
Antvasima said:
@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @LuciferDC099 @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @LuciferX @Excellence616 @JohnCenaNation @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @Robo432343 @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @PrinceStories @Asterotheology @Zensum @Hykuu @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca @AerrowStorm1

Your evaluation help would be very appreciated here. 🙏
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Ultima's evaluation seems to be:

Divine Presence: Tier 0
True Form Pralaya: High 1-A+
Metaphysical Planes: Baseline 1-A

Night, Time, and Yahweh: 1-A
All other 1-A proposals: Likely 1-A (though it sounded like he was willing to debate some of this further)

And currently, I agree with this stance. I'll try commenting on some things later (you guessed it, the collective unconscious hierarchy proposal).
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
And currently, I agree with this stance. I'll try commenting on some things later (you guessed it, the collective unconscious hierarchy proposal).
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Not the Collective Unconscious. The limitless planes addressed by the Spectre series. It’s the main point of contingency and not any sort of specific/individual realm like the Collective Unconscious because I’m rating that realm as equal to Heaven.
 
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