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Guys, let's not derail this thread. We haven't gotten much in and this isn't helping.
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Vertigo(Neil Gaiman and Mike Carey) Revision
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Deleted member 30746
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I believe that silver city/heaven transcends the material realms and metaphysical realms with R>F. We can scale heaven, and mansions of the silence as 1-A. Other than that, I see errors that are not very important. For Night and Time, only the Low 1-A switch is more better.
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- #43
Depends on the context of the Universe while Neil certainly did attribute it. In Lucifer, it's still within Creation.
Deleted member 30746
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But he still sees all creation as grains of sand. You can create two keys for it if you want.
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- #45
We’ll just say Heaven/City is beyond Creation.
Bastolan27
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Agree
Read through it, and you are the GOAT making all these revisions. The R>F Transcendence is evident, and the Way of getting Creation to High 1-B seems to make sense, too; I have a question, though: Is it infinite 2-As + infinite Space = high 1-B or Infinite low 1-Cs + infinite space = High 1-B?
Read through it, and you are the GOAT making all these revisions. The R>F Transcendence is evident, and the Way of getting Creation to High 1-B seems to make sense, too; I have a question, though: Is it infinite 2-As + infinite Space = high 1-B or Infinite low 1-Cs + infinite space = High 1-B?
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Yea this makes sense
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If we do that. Wouldn’t The gods sphere will also and things above it will also scale that high?
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- #49
This is Vertigo, there's no such thing as Godsphere.
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Low 1-C is the first degree of infinity and thus is needed for transcendence to reach a higher tier in Tier 1. 2-A + infinite space is 2-A+. You need to have R>F over the infinite space-time and well the Material encompasses things much bigger with a countable infinity.
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But wasn’t vertigo added to mainline dc canon. Or will that be separated? Am curious
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- #52
The Cosmology blog goes by the writers and their canon.
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Ok. This next part is irrelevant but instead of separating canons why can’t the wiki but high end interpretation and low end interpretation for the cosmology. I feel like that would make more sense anyway that’s all.
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- #54
It’s answered why they used the writer's split and why composite does not work with either higher or low interpretation.
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Looks good, I'm neutral
It seems like infinity, infinity and infinity is a higher dimensional layer, right?
Because here it is said that the world has levels
[Here]
I actually disagree with L1A father time and mother night, they should be 1A, because they existed before the beginning [Here]
I know this statement isn't used, but it all makes sense now with this. Infinite layers 75 [Here]
#Edit misplaced link + Added link
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Deleted member 30746
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Yes, creation is divided into material and metaphysical levels. The material plane also includes infinite dimensional structure that is higher than the 4D multiverse.
Existing before all dimensions will not take you to a higher level, so Low 1-A is the best option for Night and Time. We place them above the metaphysical realms and the endless.
The scan you mention is not a clear statement of dimensionality. This is the situation according to Gross, the artist of the series. Spacelessness and timelessness, endless layering all creation and everything on top of each other, that's all for now.
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I don't think there that much more powerful than the Endless. They seem to have the same reach as the Endless would at their highest, if we take into account all points of view.
Yes, everything does stack although it only applies to the Void.
Material is infinite as I mentioned. A countable infinity which is infinite spatial is why I gave it High 1-B. Heaven is another countable infinity though that doesn't matter since is QS over Creation. The Void has infinite hierarchies of infinite.
Deleted member 30746
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You're finally back. The CRT on DeMatteis cosmology is closed, and it looks like it will be closed on this thread as well. Will you open a new CRT based on Ant and Deagon's suggestions? I will give you priority depending on the situation.
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I feel if they don't read it then there's no point to which I could make to change their opinion. It's pretty ridiculous that every time they get their point rebuked, they rely on saying other things away from responding.
That's why I even left because of the frustration of some staff members and having to explain some things from the story. I have said it before they take too much of the tiering system to implement from the story when it should be the opposite. The major consensus including some mods agreed and defended the points only to be closed down by one mod and his antics of now wanting to read because for some reason he doesn't want to read more CRT on DC.
Deleted member 30746
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For example, what is the difference between their complaints about the threads you brought up and the situation here?
DC Cosmology: Crisis Cosmology - Part 1
Alright, I feel newer interpretations of the concept should take precedence and Morrison's be deemed obsolete. It's a Crisis Cosmology after all incorporating views from different writers retroactively using recent comics as basis. Also, geometry is being used here in the literal sense, which...
According to them this is not a problem, is it just because there are staff?
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I've reread the thread about two times, besides it being an informative thread that could add to the blog, I genuinely do not understand where precisely the High 1-B comes from.
There are three parts of the thread that could, possibly be an implication of higher dimensions, lets cover some of them.
A) Dimensions could (and do) mean realms in this cosmology.
B) How is this High 1-B?
Self explanatory. Where does the infinite dimensions come from (with the assumption that dimensions here are, indeed, spatial dimensions), there doesn't seem to be any reference to infinite dimensions anywhere here, the only reference of any quantity of anything being infinite in this thread is "possibilities", which, is not dimensions.
There are three parts of the thread that could, possibly be an implication of higher dimensions, lets cover some of them.
Alrighty, off the bat, this breaks a sort of unspoken rule on here, it assumes that "dimensions" can only relate to spatial dimensionality and not just realms or universes, especially when 1/3rd of the evidence supporting this is pretty damn clearly a reference to realms and not dimensions:
So, two problems here:
A) Dimensions could (and do) mean realms in this cosmology.
B) How is this High 1-B?
Self explanatory. Where does the infinite dimensions come from (with the assumption that dimensions here are, indeed, spatial dimensions), there doesn't seem to be any reference to infinite dimensions anywhere here, the only reference of any quantity of anything being infinite in this thread is "possibilities", which, is not dimensions.
If Ultimas thread goes through, then yeah I could see this being 1-A considering it's pretty clearly saying that the cosmology is essentially nonexistent in comparison to the Void, and is pretty clearly not supposed to be quantitative because of Lucifers statement about "one and one are not two.", and using that as a justification for why distance and space essentially does not exist there.
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I've generally used the commotion of spatiality to convey dimensional numbers. Since Vertigo does like to use “infinite” a lot with worlds, realms, and dimensions. If the Material is conveyed by time and space then I would assume there are infinite dimensions within an infinite timeline within an infinite space. It's not a stretch to see this since there are beings that embody every single type of concept as we've seen in Endless Night.
In some cases, yes. However, some distinct notions don't refer to just realms or worlds.
As I've explained. It's mainly context-based when it's not referring to realms.
The Material is already infinite by supplementary information. Infinite timeline, the Dreaming is akin to the Waking which is infinite thus so is the other. This debased level of Creation would include just worlds and their components that make time and space. Directions, distance, up, and down as vector points aren't disregarded so calling them spatial is just pointing out those dimensional spaces that are rarely mentioned.
Space does exist it exists as distance. To be more precise the Void is the space. Not a conventional space with dimensions but an infinite space of nothing.
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Legit forgot this thread was a thing. Probably won’t post a long reply this time, but I think NHTkenshin makes the most sense from a glance.
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Please read the response. I don't need “from a glance” as your reasoning.
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Just for reference, worlds, and dimensions are on the most debased level of Creation. As mentioned the Material is the lowest level by Soloman.
Mike Carey and his entire #20 arc as well as his tweet mentioned “infinity.” How Lucifer can craft it from any material and affect the size of time and space with it. Not to mention his Creation has infinite distance and his border stretches to infinity.
Elaine while being helped by Duma mentions that a soul can harbor millions of Heavens and there are infinite amounts across the plane.
Lucifer shattered his gate stretching across all time and space. Each door for each world and each realm. Vertigo uses “all” to encompass infinity.
Dreaming is akin to Waking as the Dreaming is infinite so is the Waking which contains all worlds. Within each one with timelines and possibilities that go to infinity. So all the time and spaces mentioned by Destiny and even the Inn keepers are suggesting everything is infinite on all levels.
Infinite worlds
Infinite time and space
Infinite heavens
Dreaming being infinite
Creation being infinite
Mansion containing an infinite of infinite
Void has an infinite hierarchy.
To dismiss the claim because there is a lack of isn't a reason to suggest there isn't. Infinite space within worlds and dimensions would suggest both the former and the latter are infinite. Lucifer mentions infinite on any level that you break it doesn't get smaller. So space with countable infinite dimensions would similarly sound like the requirement:
Mike Carey and his entire #20 arc as well as his tweet mentioned “infinity.” How Lucifer can craft it from any material and affect the size of time and space with it. Not to mention his Creation has infinite distance and his border stretches to infinity.
Elaine while being helped by Duma mentions that a soul can harbor millions of Heavens and there are infinite amounts across the plane.
Lucifer shattered his gate stretching across all time and space. Each door for each world and each realm. Vertigo uses “all” to encompass infinity.
Dreaming is akin to Waking as the Dreaming is infinite so is the Waking which contains all worlds. Within each one with timelines and possibilities that go to infinity. So all the time and spaces mentioned by Destiny and even the Inn keepers are suggesting everything is infinite on all levels.
Infinite worlds
Infinite time and space
Infinite heavens
Dreaming being infinite
Creation being infinite
Mansion containing an infinite of infinite
Void has an infinite hierarchy.
To dismiss the claim because there is a lack of isn't a reason to suggest there isn't. Infinite space within worlds and dimensions would suggest both the former and the latter are infinite. Lucifer mentions infinite on any level that you break it doesn't get smaller. So space with countable infinite dimensions would similarly sound like the requirement:
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You can't really do that, champ.
There has to explicit evidence as to why there are infinite dimensions, there are none. And thus, it's not infinite dimensions.
You will also have to prove that. Considering there is evidence "dimension" is also used to describe realms, then prove the other instances reference dimensionality.
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You'll just have to refer to what I said above.
If you read what I said above with how the word “infinite” in Vertigo then it helps expand on my reasoning.
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PrinceofPein
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Based on what I remember, I disagreed with this thread but I will have a look at it later in the day and see if anything has changed since some comments and arguments have been made.
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I suppose I'll bump this thread since I don't think this has been applied.
I'm relatively neutral on this matter.
I'm relatively neutral on this matter.
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I believe my concerns about this CRT were largely the same as many of Goofy's other CRTs, which is to say they are ungodly long and don't do a good job explaining what specific changes are being advocated for. I believe it should be closed, and if Goofy wants to pursue changes to the cosmology blog in the future, he should be required to advocate for specific changes rather than simply posting his own version of the blog in its entirety without specification of what changes are being argued for and why.
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It certainly helps in your case because it's “long” but I want to target those who would read and compare it. Some stuff can stay the same and it's more fitting I go over the fundamental parts as well as express where it does need to be changed, if you intend to read it, which you made your stance clear on.
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I'll keep that in mind, though I do see the need as this has been up like this for a while. However, I rather wait and perhaps we can open this thread later with me fixing it. I suggest we close it for now.
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You have not expressed where it needs to be changed. No segment of your OP describes a change being made, the only changes being argued for are implicit to the fact that they differ from the existing cosmology blog, but these are not highlighted in any way to contrast them against the segments of your giant post which just reword the same information without substantively changing it.
This makes it impossible to evaluate in any substantive way without dedicating an unreasonable amount of time to comparing and contrasting both blogs to look for the changes. I shouldn't have to spend hours reading in order to determine what your argument even is. I will not waste my time like that.
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I still agree with the Void being 1-A after Ultimas thread. I don't agree with the High 1-B stuff.
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Which thread?
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The Void would likely be 0 after I discuss the matter with Ultima. As for the High 1-B stuff, it's not very particular we work with a split nor how comics rarely mention “spatial dimensions” as how we intend to scale. So it's more context-based than a direct statement.
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