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If the divine presence is given as monadhood, do we have to create a profile for him or combine it with profile spectre? As for vertigo, I think there might be some problems with what Ultima says but we can fix them easily.
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DC/Vertigo Cosmology Redo(Part 1 of 2)
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Deleted member 30746
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I'd rather have Him have his own profile. By the way, the Spectre could be 0 because he experienced the Oversoul experience and united with God, but I think he could come back empty-handed in this regard...
The nuances of Vertigo can be clarified in the right way.
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I would also like to have a profile for him, but Specter could be 0 as well. The villain in the story is completely unified, embodying all the qualities and it has been said many times that god exists in everyone.
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- #124
Probably just create a separate key for him in the Presence profile. Ultima overall agrees with the Vertigo ratings, but he's weary of a few things.
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It's good to add it to the profile of The presence. additional question, will the spectre be 0 or High1-A+?
Now we're just waiting for Ant, right?
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- #126
The Oversoul key would probably get 0.
No. We don't have enough of a consensus yet and voting I haven't formally started. I'll count them later after I discuss this privately with Ultima.
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Timothy Hunter had a direct statement of his peak form transcending magic and that "nothing is real to him" literally
Wouldn't that qualify as outerversal on its own?
Wouldn't that qualify as outerversal on its own?
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By itself no, but the context is that he's saying all of existence is such that it's unreal to him and he's the only real thing in existence in comparison, which should be a qualitative difference over it all.
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What is Lucifer's Tier? and is he Have any layers on his Tier?
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There's one character that always made me question his Tier: First of the Fallen. I mean... Shouldn't he be High 1-B?
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- #131
I was originally going to give him one layer but for now, he’s baseline.
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- #132
There's no High 1-B tier so I wouldn't how he scales to that tier.
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so should he scale to outer
Deleted member 30746
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What Timothy attributes to the fact that nothing is real except himself is one of the arbitrary worlds he creates in his own subconscious. I also said he was 1-A and even higher.
Since Lucifer is so far above the other 1-A realms, he cannot be limited to the baseline.
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- #135
The standard for layers in 1-A is R>F. While he is superior to the lower realms and beings, he doesn't see them as “fiction.”
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- #136
I'm in talks with Ultima about a possible High 1-A+/0 for Vertigo. He should respond to this thread soon enough, we’re covering all grounds here.
Deleted member 30746
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I honestly see a lot for R>F. At least because we count it as an R>F that the City of Stars is above real. But qualitative transcendence is not just R>F.
If by 0 you mean the vast Monad in the Dreaming series, it won't work unless we associate it with Yahweh.
Deleted member 30746
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Ultima told me to wait. It would be great if he answered today, because the topic is deadlocked. We cannot receive input from other admins.
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- #139
Yeah, but do you have something to suggest Lucifer is qualitatively superior to say Creation for an additional layer?
It's somewhat that. I also want to refer to Overture “God.” The scan depicts God having the entire Universe in his mind and that each thought or idea(Creation) is completely dissolved with just his meditation as the Void also exists as his consciousness.
Deleted member 30746
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In fact, his view of the entire Universe as nothing more than a toolbox can only be interpreted as his complete domination over everything. Are you saying that the City of Stars is baseline 1-A? I'm giving layers because it's scaled on top of it. Expressions can get very stifling. Considering Sandman, Silver City sees the universe as a child's toy, and in the Lucifer series, it looks at the universe as very small particles. So Lucifer is far, far superior to all 1-A structures. Considering that he destroys MoS with just his footsteps, he is very difficult to be a baseline 1-A.
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Unless other knowledgeable staff members have objections. I do not want us to enforce such important changes based on me and Ultima alone, especially as I am not good at evaluating most content revision threads in the first place.
@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @LuciferDC099 @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @LuciferX @Excellence616 @JohnCenaNation @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @Robo432343 @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @PrinceStories @Asterotheology @Zensum @Hykuu @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca @AerrowStorm1
Your help would still be extremely appreciated here.
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- #142
Seeing the Universe as a toolbox isn’t R>F, I've consulted Ultima on that part. The City looking down upon Creation isn't an example of R>F anymore. Ultima and I were discussing which depiction of the Silver City as a transcendental realm or just a City used interchangeably with Heaven, also is part of it. If it's the former then sure an argument can be made for an additional layer, if the latter, then no because it is physically attached to the Universe ie Armaggdeon.
The Mansion feat in all accounts may give Lucifer an additional layer.
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- #143
Ultima and I are still discussing this topic. I’ll discuss the DeMatteis portion because I've convinced him of some stuff that adheres to my original ratings.Unless other knowledgeable staff members have objections. I do not want us to enforce such important changes based on me and Ultima alone, especially as I am not good at evaluating most content revision threads in the first place.
@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @LuciferDC099 @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @LuciferX @Excellence616 @JohnCenaNation @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @Robo432343 @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @PrinceStories @Asterotheology @Zensum @Hykuu @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca @AerrowStorm1
Your help would still be extremely appreciated here.
Deleted member 30746
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It's not R>F, yes, I consulted him too. Neil's comment for the City could be considered R>F, but after what happened in the Lucifer series, R>F does not seem possible. The reason I said these was to emphasize the importance and location of the City. I think MoS is a very clear reason.
We have no objection to more staff, but we don't see any input either. I assume you agree with the OP. If Ultima and other staff have any thoughts, we welcome their comments. But if this takes too long, I think there will be no obstacle to implementing the approved changes.Unless other knowledgeable staff members have objections. I do not want us to enforce such important changes based on me and Ultima alone, especially as I am not good at evaluating most content revision threads in the first place.
@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @LuciferDC099 @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @LuciferX @Excellence616 @JohnCenaNation @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @Robo432343 @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @PrinceStories @Asterotheology @Zensum @Hykuu @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca @AerrowStorm1
Your help would still be extremely appreciated here.
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Not saying we don't need more staff, but Most staff is just going to say if Ultima agrees with it then it's fine with them.It is a very high-tier upgrade. We need more staff input first.
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It's not exactly that, the world revealed to him was rather his full potential being revealed to him by showing his true nature as the opener, something he can reach at full power
Deleted member 30746
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The world he was shown was still an impression of his nature, that is, his ability to create worlds, and still has nothing to do with the real world.
PrinceofPein
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arguments are stull going onUnless other knowledgeable staff members have objections. I do not want us to enforce such important changes based on me and Ultima alone, especially as I am not good at evaluating most content revision threads in the first place.
@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @LuciferDC099 @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @LuciferX @Excellence616 @JohnCenaNation @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @Robo432343 @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @PrinceStories @Asterotheology @Zensum @Hykuu @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca @AerrowStorm1
Your help would still be extremely appreciated here.
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Not exactly, it was referring to the fact that the real world was nearly drained of its magic and Tim is the only person who still had access to the source of magic, which lead to Tim giving up his power to refill the world's magic supply. Several issues prior to that, Tim used the stone of opening on himself to "open" the world and see it for what it is, where he saw numerous ****** up things happening. Tim's monologue about being the only real thing later on goes along with a montage of these things happening, so he was indeed referring to the real world. Tim creating worlds was only really brought up in Peter Gross's run which started in issue 51, after Ney Rieber left the book
Deleted member 30746
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You misunderstand. What Tim stated is clearly in one of his worlds. Whether this is an impression or not, it does not cover the real world.
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So uh what's the arguments for High 1-A+ Vertigo ?
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- #154
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Did he explain this in more depth ? I don't remember anything like that being a thing in Vertigo, and I've read the comics a good while ago.
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- #156
He didn't elaborate but if he wants he’ll tune in again for his second take after he and I talked for a while about mainly the Dreaming and Faerie.
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Tim creating worlds was only established later on in the run when peter gross took over. This scene kind of concluded how Tim had the potential to be a god, but chose not to be.
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Should we stop talking about Tim for now? Then we save it to talk in crt part 2.
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- #159
I agree. Once Ultima restates his opinion, I'll formally start voting.
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I'm waiting for an explanation of the Vertigo High1-A+.
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