Removal of God of War's "Type 1 Concept Manipulation"

[Ultima_Reality]

Alright, so, I was told to read Grath's big post. Full disclosure: It's rather late here and I'm lazy, so I'll only read the other subsequent posts later. For this one, I'll just be focusing on the alleged crux of the evidence here. Right off the bat, I'll point out the part that concerns me:

Holding a more fundamental existence relative to their domains than gods, who are aware of all that would ever occur within their domains across time and space and are ever present throughout them, the aspects of the world they embody are merely the physical forms of their true non-physical selves.

So, that scan is suspicious to me. I'd draw attention to the wording here:

"Worse, time ceased to have meaning because her physical form had been ripped away, leaving behind only inchoate spirit."

This seems to suggest that Gaea and her physical form (And more generally, Gaea and the Earth, as the first paragraph seems to suggest) share a Soul-Body relationship. Said relationship also seems to be one where the two are pretty closely connected, seeing the usage of terms like "ripped away," and the narration saying the spirit left behind is "inchoate" (i.e. incomplete)

That is cause for worry, since, based on that scan, it's pretty easy to interpret things less as "Gaea is the concept of the Earth, and the actual Earth as a physical structure is her instantiation" and more as "Gaea is the Earth, and the Earth has both a 'body' and a soul." Under this reading, Gaea can still perfectly be said to be the Earth, just like verses with souls and ghosts usually tend to see both body and soul as being equally "you." The text seems to support this by saying Gaea is literally an incomplete spirit without her physical form.

So, we're not off to a good start here. There's also how Uranus literally "created the universe" by having it punched out of his face. Uranus personifies "the heavens," obviously meaning the sky as a space full of stars and the like. Yet the physical heavens (The universe) literally came out of his body, meaning that Uranus is as physical as the universe itself is, at face value. A far cry from him being the actual concept of "heavens."

Now, a valid objection to would be "The body that we see being punched, and which the universe came out of, is just his physical form, and he has a non-physical state just like Gaea does." I can concede to that, but it just leads into another problem: You can likewise just interpret Uranus as being an entity with a body and a soul. The giant dude being punched is his body, and the non-physical state would then be his soul. Again, "Uranus is literally the concept of the heavens" isn't needed here, either.

With that, the rest of the reasons for their Type 1 AE kind of breaks down. To quote the rest:

• The Primordials predate the universe and time, given that they existed in the primordial realm of Chaos, with the universe itself having been created by one of them, and would exist long after it is reduced to chaos.
• Chaos, and the primordial forces within it, predating time is something common across pantheons. The Ginnungagap, or Spark of the World, is the void that preceded Ymir's existence and thus time and space, being where chaos and order meet much like how the order was brought to Chaos by Uranus creating the universe. Sutr himself reminds us that the origin of primordial magic doesn't matter and holds the same nature regardless of mythical origin.
• They are responsible for creating the entirety of the Greek World and its contents, be it physical or non-physical, being the literal concepts of the aspects of nature that they represent. Primordial forces are also synonymous with magic, which itself is an Independent Universal Concept that predates time and exists throughout all of the reality of a given pantheon

#1 is just "The Primordials predated the universe and time," which doesn't clash with the above reading of the evidence. #2 is partly useless and partly relies on the idea that magic in GoW is a Type 1 Concept, and the evidence for this isn't very good, either. Everything here only points to magic being some ill-defined cosmic "stuff" that permeates everything, which isn't sufficient for being considered a concept. A "concept" in our terms is an essence in the philosophical sense; the "what-it-is" of a thing. Very specific thing that the evidence given for it doesn't cover. Of course, there's also stuff about magic originating the Primordials too, but that would only be evidence for it being conceptual in nature if you presuppose that the Primordials themselves are conceptual, and it isn't a given that they are, exactly.

So, yeah, it seems the evidence given can pretty easily be interpreted as the Primordials being spirits attached to particular structures that come from them, and not in a "Universal –> Particular" relationship, either, but at best a "Soul-Body compound -> Physical structures emerging from said body" one. (To be clear: Souls can be concepts, but they aren't inherently so, and there being room to equally validly interpret all this as being just as a run-of-the-mill Body-Soul relationship dispenses with that reading of the text until more is provided)

That said: It seems there are Primordials whose domains are more abstract (Thanatos and Morpheus have been mentioned as ones whose domains are death and dreams). Any information regarding those at all?

 

[DarkGrath]

Even if Grath did flip positions, it would seem unlikely that this makes a significant enough change in the voting to change the outcome. Still, it would be considered good etiquette to wait for her (and possibly Ultima, since Deagon is mentioning him wanting to speak on this).

I haven't forgotten about this thread, and I've seen the notifications requesting my input. I've just been too busy to respond. My apologies if this causes any delays, but I likely will not be able to respond today - perhaps in 24 hours or so, if my input is still needed.

 

[Everything12]

I'd like to say that I'm currently undecided, not neutral, in that I'm waiting to see how others respond from here before I say if I agree or not.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I haven't forgotten about this thread, and I've seen the notifications requesting my input. I've just been too busy to respond. My apologies if this causes any delays, but I likely will not be able to respond today - perhaps in 24 hours or so, if my input is still needed.

It's not my intent to rush you, just that the thread shouldn't be regarded as 100% concluded if you were wanting to still reply with the votes being as close as they were. With Ultima's opinion, this seems to have been made relevant again. Reply as you are able, do not worry about the delay.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I will asked that people stop tagging/asking me to look at threads like this when I'm pretty sure I've made it clear I'm not feeling well nowadays so try to stay away from big topics like this.

Since I'm here now regardless, I going to disagree with OP regarding the overall removal based on responses from Planck and others, though I do think the justification could be updated to better clarify it (though I think the other side makes some valid points). To be clear though, this is my thoughts based on my understanding of CM, and it's clear it's not the same as everyone else's. I'm not about to do any back and forth, I'm not well enough for that so this will be my only response to this thread.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Don't expect me to leave an evaluation on this thread, because I really don't want to go down this rabbit hole, but I'll be keeping track of the votes, at the very least.

Current Tally-

Agree: Mr. Bambu, Deagonx, CrimsonStarFallen
Disagree: DarkDragonMedeus, DarkGrath, Elizhaa, LordGriffin1000, Planck69, Theglassman12, KingTempest, DemonGodMitchAubin, Emirp sumitpo
Neutral:
Unclear: Antvasima

As per usual, bolded names indicate evaluating staff. If you need your position changed, feel free to let me know

Updated tally again. No idea where to put Ultima atm

 

[Deagonx]

@Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @KingTempest @Emirp sumitpo

I believe that Ultima's response here (very first comment in this page) does a very good job explaining why the evidence brought up so far isn't great for considering these being concepts. If you are open to reconsidering, I believe it is worth looking over.

Particularly, @Elizhaa, you are listed as one of the Wiki's knowledgeable members on Concept Manipulation. If you and Ultima see things differently here it would be helpful to explain your thoughts, as it may be indicative of a broader issue of how we are defining concept manip.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do not consider myself an expert on Conceptual Manipulation, and Ultima is someone who's usually quite trust worthy regarding those. But at the same time, I think it may be best for Planck to perhaps rework the new reasons and statements for it. Maybe we can double check afterwards if those are sufficient. Whether we can simply wait or give a temporary removal until he rewrites the reasons is fine by me, but I think the former would be less work in the long run. But open to here other thoughts.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Tbf, if the justification is being reworked, a temporary removal doesn't seem like it would make sense. Better to just get that settled and update the justification

 

[Deagonx]

I do not consider myself an expert on Conceptual Manipulation, and Ultima is someone who's usually quite trust worthy regarding those. But at the same time, I think it may be best for Planck to perhaps rework the new reasons and statements for it. Maybe we can double check afterwards if those are sufficient. Whether we can simply wait or give a temporary removal until he rewrites the reasons is fine by me, but I think the former would be less work in the long run. But open to here other thoughts.

I'm not opposed to Planck proposing a new justification, but that ought to be its own CRT. It may be more work, but we have a process for this sort of thing, right?

In any case, do you want to continue being considered a "disagree" or would you like to switch to neutral in light of what Ultima said?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose neutral for now; I'd like to see the new reasons before I pick a side.

 

[Planck69]

I do not consider myself an expert on Conceptual Manipulation, and Ultima is someone who's usually quite trust worthy regarding those. But at the same time, I think it may be best for Planck to perhaps rework the new reasons and statements for it. Maybe we can double check afterwards if those are sufficient. Whether we can simply wait or give a temporary removal until he rewrites the reasons is fine by me, but I think the former would be less work in the long run. But open to here other thoughts.

I do eventually plan to rework it but I'm winding down the semester as it is. Maybe within 10 days I can do something.

Though, we're at 8-4-1 as it stands so I suppose this is just a matter of waiting on Grath to conclude.

Very busy so this is likely all I can say for now.

 

[Deagonx]

suppose this is just a matter of waiting on Grath to conclude.

No, it isn't. Everything12 has also said he's waiting to see what others say before voting, and I have asked others to come to the thread who intend to when they have time. This won't be settled by Grath's response alone. The discussion is ongoing.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Deagonx so like how the last 2 threads were still ongoing yet you closed both of them before we reached a conclusion on both sides? Sounds more like you just want the thread to drag on longer than it needs to despite the vote difference.

 

[Deagonx]

@Deagonx so like how the last 2 threads were still ongoing yet you closed both of them before we reached a conclusion on both sides? Sounds more like you just want the thread to drag on longer than it needs to despite the vote difference.

Once again, a passed thread is different than an unpassed thread in terms of allowing the discussion to continue. The reason a passed thread should be closed after grace is so that the changes can be applied. An unpassed thread has no reason to be rapidly closed after grace (and that's not even what grace is for).

Until this grace period has elapsed, since the time of the thread's creation, the revision should not be applied to the profiles.

This thread isn't turning into another policy debate. I'll close the thread when it's clear no further staff members are going to provide input.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

I'm not opposed to Planck proposing a new justification, but that ought to be its own CRT. It may be more work, but we have a process for this sort of thing, right?

In any case, do you want to continue being considered a "disagree" or would you like to switch to neutral in light of what Ultima said?

Honestly, not only does it seem like more work but it also kind of just seems like a waste of effort and energy to remove it from all the profiles and pages just to add it back. If the majority lean towards disagreeing it could just be done here. Unless you mean if the majority go towards agreeing so it's removed and then Planck tries to add it back with a better justification, in which case yeah nevermind.

Also read through the thread and the responses, Planck's argument seems reasonable to me but depending on future responses it may change. For now just put me down as disagree

 

[Deagonx]

just seems like a waste of effort and energy to remove it from all the profiles and pages just to add it back

The presumption is that they wouldn't be added back automatically. He would have to have the new justification approved, which it's not clear that it is.

Also read through the thread and the responses, Planck's argument seems reasonable to me but depending on future responses it may change. For now just put me down as disagree

Can I ask what you thought of Ultima's response or -- more broadly -- what you think the best evidence/reasoning is for seeing the Primordials as abstract ideas instead of just spirits with magical influence over something?

 

[DarkGrath]

If further hostile and accusatory comments by staff members derail this thread further, I am willing to bring up the parties involved with HR.

On a similar note, if you do believe that there is legitimate misconduct by staff members occurring in this thread, then you can and should contact HR (either me or another representative) with your concerns and we will address them. It is derailment and drama-incitement to use this thread to publicly accuse staff members of misconduct. You are not restricted from legitimately believing in these issues, but you must handle them through the proper channels.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ultima_Reality

I’m confused on what you mean by it being interpreted as the soul and body for the primordials and Gaia, especially when the novel talks about how Everything that’s related to the earth itself is Gaia, that plus the fact Gaia is aware of Kratos across time itself to where she’s commented on how she was expecting the Spartan to help them across time would imply her description of being the earth itself is more literal abstract than some soul body type thing.

For Morpheus he’s literally dreams itself as his domain spreads across the night itself. In chains of Olympus it’s shown that the reason Helios’ Chariot rides across the sky is to keep Morpheus at bay from his existence to put everyone into a deep sleep. Similar thing happens with Nyx where she’s literally the night sky itself and Helios bats her away with the primordial light itself.

Thanatos is more on his realm and his own being just disconnected from time altogether and predating the existence of titans and olympians, something in common with primordials in general. Most of this is here though I can try to answer some more questions if necessary.

@Deagonx still waiting for you to post the rule that says that’s the case on the wiki. Do you mind actually posting said scan?

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

The presumption is that they wouldn't be added back automatically. He would have to have the new justification approved, which it's not clear that it is.

Hmm, fair I suppose

Can I ask what you thought of Ultima's response or -- more broadly -- what you think the best evidence/reasoning is for seeing the Primordials as abstract ideas instead of just spirits with magical influence over something?

Mostly just didn't find the whole Gaia argument fully convincing. I see the reasoning behind it, but with what Planck said with magic/souls/life being synonymous, the narration using the word "spirit" for Gaia doesn't fully detract from what Planck said in my opinion.

 

[Deagonx]

@Deagonx still waiting for you to post the rule that says that’s the case on the wiki. Do you mind actually posting said scan?

I did, it's in my most recent comment. The grace rule is a limitation on applying proposed changes, it cannot occur sooner than 48 hours after the proposal. There's no policy that indicates a thread should be closed immediately after grace if the vote is negative.

 

[Deagonx]

Planck said with magic/souls/life being synonymous, the narration using the word "spirit" for Gaia doesn't fully detract from what Planck said in my opinion

I think the issue is more that magic/souls/life being conceptual draws significantly from Chaos being conceptual (as he's the God of Life) who is considered such due to Gaia being considered conceptual.

For my part I don't see why we consider Gaia conceptual, which makes that chain of reasoning problematic.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Deagonx no give me the link to the wiki rules that says this right now, where does it say that rejected threads can still continue even after a major vote difference?

 

[Deagonx]

where does it say that rejected threads can still continue even after a major vote difference?

This question seems ill formed. Is there a reason to believe it cannot or shouldn't? I'm not aware of such a rule. Can you link me to it?

 

[Theglassman12]

You’re the one claiming such a rule exists that rejected threads can still continue after grace period and the votes being in favor of it being rejected. I’m asking where is that ever stated, especially in comparisons to threads getting accepted?

 

[Deagonx]

You’re the one claiming such a rule exists that rejected threads can still continue after grace period

No, I explained that the grace period is explicitly a restriction on applying changes, not on whether a thread can continue. There's no rule preventing the continuation of threads. If you know of one feel free to bring it up. Grace is not an applicable concept here.

In any case, I'm done responding to the derailing as it's not relevant to the thread.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Ultima seems to make sense here. It seems like we need better examples of conceptual manipulation. Until then, I suppose that I agree with Deagonx.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You’re the one claiming such a rule exists that rejected threads can still continue after grace period and the votes being in favor of it being rejected. I’m asking where is that ever stated, especially in comparisons to threads getting accepted?

The 'rule' exists as precedent: there is no hard-set rule one way or the other, only the idea of a minimum amount of time. A CRT is not required to end at this 48 hour mark, we have no strict rules regarding when the thread must be closed.

There's no need to scuffle over this, if people continue to trickle in then there's a legitimate argument for keeping it open until they stop.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mr. Bambu So why did the prior two threads close right on the dime for grace period when there was still a discussion happening? Again this seems very biased that a thread with people still arguing just gets shut down before they get any answer, let alone have the discussion come to a close but this one gets all the time in the world to keep open.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We've already covered that.

The first one was quieted down for well over 24 hours.

The second one was 5-1 and had no mention of anyone else coming.

They're not the same, man.

You and Deagon constantly making these allegations against each other only harms your own position by making them at the drop of a hat, and in particular you have alleged this same thing several times now in spite of the facts of the matter being elaborated on. If you two want to roughhouse, it should be done within official channels as an HR report- if it is your earnest belief that this is done out of spite of the verse, then pursue that and be done with it. But the fact is that these threads are under different conditions, and you constantly making the same tired accusations which are just as baseless as they were before is exhausting, Glass. You and I have talked about this behavior before and I'd hoped you would have learned to not do this. It's a poor show of sportsmanship and character.

Now then. As it stands, the thread appears likely to go in your favor anyways. If people have nothing constructive to say regarding the thread, I invite them to recognize that by posting more and more on the thread, you elongate its lifespan. If the thread becomes dormant, we have little reason to continue as the voting is fairly conclusive already. If the thread does reach that point, I will personally close this.

 

[Theglassman12]

The first one KLOL was asking Wokistan and Firestorm for comments on the newer scans and only one of them remotely responded. Second one Pepsiman was still arguing but he got shut down despite the notable vote difference, which is hardly any different than this thread with a 3 vote difference (now around 5).

How are they different conditions when both this and the last thread concluded the grace period with a noteworthy vote difference and someone in the minority still arguing their points? One got closed before the discussion was over and the other is being extended further, I don’t think I’m in the wrong to question why that’s happening at all.

If you promise that when it’s done that this will be closed when it’s concluded or dormant then sure, I’ll drop this topic and leave it be.

 

[DarkGrath]

I will delete any further derailing comments from this point onwards.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Got perms from Mr. Bambu.

To be clear: Souls can be concepts, but they aren't inherently so, and there being room to equally validly interpret all this as being just as a run-of-the-mill Body-Soul relationship dispenses with that reading of the text until more is provided

Then Deagnox's argument on how souls can't be concepts by definition is false. So how do Souls look regarding their nature in the verse? Are they conceptual on their own merits or no? And if they do, what type?

Souls​

Souls are the metaphysical nature and form of beings, shaping the physical objects they possess after them. As we know, Souls are made up of a beings form, but as to what this "form" encompasses has been poorly explained by our pages, fortunately, the games have shown context to what this form actually is.

Souls are the metaphysical nature and form of beings.

We see this instance as it's most clear when Kratos and Atrues battle the immortal wolf Garm, whom doesn't possess the nature of dying due to lacking a soul.

The father-son duo try to overcome this by inputting a soul within Garm, Which causes a change in his nature to be replaced by Fenrir's.

This is the most clear one, But their are other instances, Such as a God's nature battling what the mind perceived as it's nature as said by Mimir and Freya, But those would take a lengthy time to explain their nuance.

To summarize it, Souls are the metaphysical form and nature of a being, And when put into a body they override it's nature with its own, even if it's a false nature made up by the mind.

Beings are molded by their soul.

As mentioned before hand, Having Fenrir's soul put in Garm caused Garm to have Fenrir's eye color and fur, Changing his appearance to match his soul.

When a Giant's soul was put in a soulless snake (I'm sorry you're gonna have to watch a bit of the beginning), It caused the snake to grow as a Giant and even become one on a physical level, As the snake here is Jomungander. This is pretty important, As it showcases Souls having the nature of a being down to their biology.

Even the Greek saga had it has a thing, Showcasing this as being a inherent property of Souls.

Souls predate time and space.

To go over this, Magic, a cosmic force within nature, something synonymous with the soul, is older than the entirety of the Nine Realms and existed in the Ginnungagap as a primordial essence

Ancients, a race of primordial stone who existed as a part of Ymir, Whose corpse was used to create time and space, have Souls.

The Light of Alfheim is a power that existed before the creation of the Nine Realms (Even before Odin) and has gathered souls towards it since the beginning of creation.

To summarize it, Souls predate space and time and are thus independent as far as their nature goes.

Added a bit more to explain stuff more indepthly, but to go over the current discourse about the Primordials.

First, To describe the Primordials we need to describe how their domains work, Luckily, I already made one,

How does a God's domain work?

A God's relationship with their domain is metaphysical in essence, ruling over its nature across space and time and gaining magical powers to influence it as a result.

They also have this nature as an aspect of their soul (form in particular) and it is the determining factor between a god and demigod Soul's.

A God's(and by extension a Primordial's) rule over their domain is essentially a "metaphysical responsibility", they rule it's nature across space and time and influence it with their magical powers, Allowing them to maintain their dominance and enforce their rule.

Credits to glassman12 for bringing this up, But the Primordials have shown to be their domains. To quote the explanation page,

The Domain of Death​

A dark netherworld that divides The Mortal World and Underworld, ruled by the God of Death, Thanatos[40]. Existing completely outside the mortal world and predating it and its time entirely,[40] It is a dimension that can only be entered through a portal, in which time does not pass as it does in the Mortal World.[45] It solidifies the separation of the Mortal World and Underworld as a consequence of its existence. As the realm of a Primordial of similar nature to Morpheus, Nyx and Uranus, it should be of a comparable size as well.

Morpheus' Realm of Dreams​

This is a dimension ruled and controlled by Morpheus, the Primordial God of Dreams, that represents the land of dreams that mortals go to when they sleep[46] During the events of Chains of Olympus, Morpheus attempted to merge both of them together into one and engulf all of the mortal world and its gods within his grasp,[47] bringing about an eternal night[48]. Between the spatial separation, the realm of dreams being capable of engulfing the mortal world for eternity, and Morpheus' own nature as a Primordial, his realm would be much like the others in being an infinite space-time separate from the others.

Nyx's World​

This is a mirror dimension to the Mortal World that's bathed in an eternal night[25] with its own moon, accessible only through a portal.[25] It was created by Nyx and acts as her refuge when she is beaten back by Helios every night[49]. It is a reflection of the mortal world and would thus be of similar magnitude due to its mirror nature and status as a Primordial realm that'd predate the space and time of the Greek World.

To summarize it, Morpheus, Whose realm is where dream takes place, Had caused his realm to be merged with mortal world by simply descending in the mortal world, Which caused everybody to be in a constant sleep.

Nyx causes a night sky every time she descends on the mortal world, Said night sky being her parallel dimension of eternal night.

As for Thanatos, it's highly implied that he has a Godly physical form similar to Gaia's Titan physical form, And we don't have much regarding his relationship with his domain.

Uranus had the entire universe inside him and created all its contents.

However, Even Gaia has showed this level of being her domain, As all things earth are Gaia, Even across time as showed by how can recognize Kratos even in the past before he had existed, How she was able to control her past body of earth as her own in the present.

To summarize,

• A God's domain rules over the metaphysical nature of domains across space and time.
• Primordials are their domains across space and time as they are their dimensions (Nyx, Morpheus and Uranus) and have showed to rule it across time(Gaia).

I should mention that the Primordials had been their domains before the creation of space and time, So if they are seen as conceptual then they'd be likely type 1.

 

[Deagonx]

I am sure Ultima will have his own comments on this, but I will explain my issue with the argument.

We are looking for information that suggests something (chiefly the Primordials) are not merely/only (A) spiritual/divine/ethereal/non-physical but that they are literally (B) the very idea of a thing itself, i.e. concepts, universals. Many of the scans confirm (A) but are spoken about by advocates as though they confirm (B) which is the disagreement here. I feel that many of the scans in the above have the same issue. Or, also commonly, a scan/video is linked to that says relatively little but is extrapolated to mean far more than what the scan says

A God's(and by extension a Primordial's) rule over their domain is essentially a "metaphysical responsibility", they rule it's nature across space and time and influence it with their magical powers, Allowing them to maintain their dominance and enforce their rule.

The scans used for this are a lot more reserved in their descriptions.

1) Helios: To imagine YOU once again holding an office of solemn metaphysical responsibility. A trusted figure. A worshipped figure.

There are a lot of ways to interpret something like "seat of metaphysical responsibility" that does not involve "being the very abstract universal concept behind the thing." In fact, what Helios immediately says afterwards explains what he means by this. Helios mocks the idea that Kratos would be in a position that renders him a trusted and worshipped figure. This responsibility (of being trusted and worshipped) is not physical, he is not like King Arthur who has a physical responsibility to his subjects, to protect his borders from invaders. His responsibility is metaphysical, he would be trusted and worshipped from afar, prayed to. Kratos "becoming an abstract concept" isn't necessary to explain this.

2) and 3): Both of these only speak to the fact that gods have special powers over the aspects of nature they are associated with. Poseidon has water powers, Hades has powers of darkness. Again, we don't need concepts to explain this. Water manipulation being a power of a Water Deity is not an indication that the Water Deity is "the unifying governing abstraction of water itself." It could even be the case that this Water Deity has magical power over all water in existence, and we still would not need to regard him as conceptual for this to be true.

In general, the wiki takes the stance that the most conservative explanation demanded by the evidence is what we go with. I am sure that a conceptual water deity would have power over water, but if a non-conceptual water deity would too, then "power over water" is not really in the conversation in terms of "evidence that the water deity is conceptual."

A dark netherworld that divides The Mortal World and Underworld, ruled by the God of Death, Thanatos[40]. Existing completely outside the mortal world and predating it and its time entirely,[40] It is a dimension that can only be entered through a portal, in which time does not pass as it does in the Mortal World.[45] It solidifies the separation of the Mortal World and Underworld as a consequence of its existence. As the realm of a Primordial of similar nature to Morpheus, Nyx and Uranus, it should be of a comparable size as well.

I do not know what within this is specifically meant to address concepts, but I assume we agree that dividing two worlds, being outside or predating the mortal world, or being a timeless realm are all still well within the bounds of "bog-standard non-conceptual divinity and magic" and thus, as above, does not get us closer to believing that Thanatos is the literal concept of Death a la Death of the Endless rather than just being a "death deity"

Morpheus' Realm of Dreams​

This is a dimension ruled and controlled by Morpheus, the Primordial God of Dreams, that represents the land of dreams that mortals go to when they sleep[46] During the events of Chains of Olympus, Morpheus attempted to merge both of them together into one and engulf all of the mortal world and its gods within his grasp,[47] bringing about an eternal night[48]. Between the spatial separation, the realm of dreams being capable of engulfing the mortal world for eternity, and Morpheus' own nature as a Primordial, his realm would be much like the others in being an infinite space-time separate from the others.

We are running into the same problems here. Morpheus being the rule of the dream-world isn't a conceptual matter, and neither is trying to engulf the mortal world.

Nyx's World
This is a mirror dimension to the Mortal World that's bathed in an eternal night[25] with its own moon, accessible only through a portal.[25] It was created by Nyx and acts as her refuge when she is beaten back by Helios every night[49]. It is a reflection of the mortal world and would thus be of similar magnitude due to its mirror nature and status as a Primordial realm that'd predate the space and time of the Greek World.

Same as above. None of this information pertains to these being conceptual.

I am open to the idea that some of these scans, despite my initial rejections, could indeed be indicative of these deities being conceptual, but they are far from obviously implying that so without a more concrete explanation of how or why they'd imply such a thing, there's really not much else I can even say other than "that just plainly does not require them to be a concept."

--------------------------------------------------------------

However, Even Gaia has showed this level of being her domain, As all things earth are Gaia, Even across time as showed by how can recognize Kratos even in the past before he had existed, How she was able to control her past body of earth as her own in the present.

To summarize,

• A God's domain rules over the metaphysical nature of domains across space and time.
• Primordials are their domains across space and time as they are their dimensions (Nyx, Morpheus and Uranus) and have showed to rule it across time(Gaia).

I should mention that the Primordials had been their domains before the creation of space and time, So if they are seen as conceptual then they'd be likely type 1.

And, here we are once again at the Gaia scan. As Ultima put it, the Earth being Gaia is sufficiently explained by Gaia having a soul-body type relationship with the Earth, and such a relationship is explicitly described in the scans themselves. As for the "everywhere there is rock, earth, trees, there is Gaia" sentence, this is also explained by the Earth being her physical body.

--

Moreover, the statement of "Gaia is the Earth" being perceived as a matter of her being a universal abstraction of the thing -- while already somewhat presumptive -- is rendered even more unlikely by the fact that "Clotho" was said to be creation itself, and "the genesis of all" and "the loom of life."

We must agree, surely, that Clotho is not any of those three things, right? Unless we're attempting to claim that Clotho is the highest deity in the verse above even Chaos? Even though after she dies, nothing actually happens?

Is it not further a problem that in the Norse Pantheon, the "creator of all" is a completely different individual? Suggesting that neither of them are the literal concept of creation, but just the divine being responsible for it in their specific pantheon?

Mimir: In the beginning, there was Ginnungagap, the great void. There were no realms yet, only primordial forces. There was Fire, and there was Ice, and there in the Void they met, and produced…
Atreus: Water?
Mimir: More than water - the mystic life blood of something entirely now. From this water, Ymir took form, and became a being of pure creation and chaos, mother and father to all that came after.
Atreus: Even the Aesir?
Mimir: Aye, every god, man, and beast came first from Ymir’s flesh. Though it was the Aesir who thought themselves so superior that they should hold dominion over the rest of creation. It was Odin who took arms against his creator, and spilled Ymir’s life-blood with his spear. A necessary evil, he would say, to bring Order to the realms. From Ymir’s torn flesh, Odin would fashion the realm of Midgard for his own. Called himself “Allfather” - as if he was the creator, and not the creator’s destroyer. A small… covetous… tyrant…

Is it not further an issue that Mimir regarding something as a "concept" is explicitly taken to mean something fictional and insignificant?

Atreus: Ironwood?! That's the—I don't know what that is.
Týr: The mythical sanctuary for giants. Curious.
Atreus: So it's in Jötunheim?
Mimir: I know some Giants thought so. But Ironwood isn't anywhere, lad. It's a concept; a metaphorical paradise. It's not real.

Mimir is mistaken here, Ironwood is real, but it's specifically being kept a secret from Odin and Mimir. The word "concept here" is quite literally being used to mean a paltry and insignificant thing.

 

[Planck69]

it not further a problem that in the Norse Pantheon, the "creator of all" is a completely different individual? Suggesting that neither of them are the literal concept of creation, but just the divine being responsible for it in their specific pantheon?

Not really? Each pantheon is its own reality with its own origin/creation within its "borders" so to speak. On this, Norse and Greece wouldn't have any bearing on each other whatsoever, in as far as creator gods go.

I feel like an issue here is the assumption that a Type 1 concept must either be of the totality of a setting or its false completely, which isn't really how we've done things for most verses here.

The rest can be discussed/dissected by others, I just had to correct this weird idea that the pantheons' domains and gods affect each other, which they do not.

 

[Deagonx]

Not really? Each pantheon is its own reality with its own origin/creation within its "borders" so to speak. On this, Norse and Greece wouldn't have any bearing on each other whatsoever.

I feel like an issue here is the assumption that a Type 1 concept must either be of the totality of a setting or its false, which isn't really how we've done things for most verses here.

That is what an "independent universal abstract" is. If Ares is the independent universal abstract concept of War itself, then the "particular" wars of Norse lands would still typify or "participate" in Ares (literally war itself). If they typify Tyr and not Ares, then neither Tyr nor Ares are "independent universal abstracts" of war if we regard them as existing in the same setting, even if there's a degree of separation between them.

That's what the criteria for Type 2 and Type 1 specify, that they govern all of reality (which would include both Greece and Norse pantheons) within their "area of influence" (in Ares' and Tyr's case, their area of influence is war).

If Ares does not govern war across all of reality, but only in a specific subsection of reality, he would be a Type 3 concept.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I believe that the lore is that the Norse lands and the Greek lands are different realities foundationally, which would lead to Planck being right about that particular point. I think you're right on a broad level, but that nitpick of his is accurate: we do consider those separate enough for the Type 1 Concept of one to not be the same as the Type 1 Concept of the other.

 

[Deagonx]

I believe that the lore is that the Norse lands and the Greek lands are different realities foundationally, which would lead to Planck being right about that particular point. I think you're right on a broad level, but that nitpick of his is accurate: we do consider those separate enough for the Type 1 Concept of one to not be the same as the Type 1 Concept of the other.

Hmm, my understanding is that the phrase "all of reality" insofar as our CM standards are concerned is not meant to be the sort of divisible use of the word where each universe in a multiverse is called a "reality" or something along those lines, but rather the literal whole sum of existence itself. I am apprehensive at there being two different Type 1 "concepts of war" co-existing in the same fiction.

However, if I am mistaken on that point then that part of the argument can be disregarded. @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa and @Executor_N0 are some of the knowledgeable members on CM. Can any of you address this point? Can we have two type 1 concepts of the same thing (say, war) co-existing in a setting if the setting divides two realms? Or does the "all of reality" requirement mean that both realms need to be encompassed?

EDIT: Also @DontTalkDT authored much of the standards so his feedback on that might be helpful, although he's likely unavailable.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hmm, my understanding is that the phrase "all of reality" insofar as our CM standards are concerned is not meant to be the sort of divisible use of the word where each universe in a multiverse is called a "reality" or something along those lines, but rather the literal whole sum of existence itself. I am apprehensive at there being two different Type 1 "concepts of war" co-existing in the same fiction.

However, if I am mistaken on that point then that part of the argument can be disregarded. @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa and @Executor_N0 are some of the knowledgeable members on CM. Can any of you address this point? Can we have two type 1 concepts of the same thing (say, war) co-existing in a setting if the setting divides two realms? Or does the "all of reality" requirement mean that both realms need to be encompassed?

EDIT: Also @DontTalkDT authored much of the standards so his feedback on that might be helpful, although he's likely unavailable.

If I may (and my comment can be deleted if not allowed as an ex-staff member), it seems to me you are under the impression that the Norse Pantheon and Greek reside within the same multiverse, and thus are under the same "reality". This is not the case. Each pantheon govern their own reality, and are simply able to travel to another within their "omniverse" (or however you want to call it). Each pantheon has their own conceptions that pertain to their specific world, with only Chaos being beyond everything iirc.

That may be where the conflict lies there.

 

[Planck69]

Mostly correct but Chaos as in specifically the embodiment of life and source of everything is unique to Greece. The Primordial forces in Norse are similar in nature but not the same entity.