Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)

[DaReaperMan]

Satan

But he isn't an abstract!

 

[Gasper]

But he isn't an abstract!

That's why we are leaving him for part 666.

 

[Antvasima]

I just want to remind you that those who sit above in shadow should also get revised.

One question, will Rune King Thor be Another key on thor profile like he is now or get a new page entirely?

They seem to have showed up as elder gods and enemies in Al Ewing's current Thor run, so their nature should likely be revised soon.

 

[Gasper]

They seem to have showed up as elder gods and enemies in Al Ewing's current Thor run, so their nature should likely be revised soon.

Interesting, didn't know that.

 

[Antvasima]

Somehow forgot about her. I'll get her profile (And probably a few others) when I have time to do wiki stuff at any length, so, either tomorrow or the day after.

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Antvasima]

Interesting, didn't know that.

They are apparently siblings to Gaea, much like Seth and Chthon.

 

[Gasper]

They are apparently siblings to Gaea, much like Seth and Chthon.

I think this solidifies gaia's scaling to Eternity and Chaos king.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I think this solidifies gaia's scaling to Eternity and Chaos king.

The Elder Gods being High 1-A is fairly consistent in more recent renditions, yeah. Gaea has been described as the true wellspring of the multiverse since Chaos War, Scarlet Witch Annual says Chthon's uncontrolled power would bring about destruction worse than anything Wanda's ever done (And she's responsible for the Chaos Wave), and more recently Immortal Thor has described them as entities beyond the stories of the multiverse. I think Set and Khonshu are referred to as a multiverse-spanning beings, too.

The big hurdle is largely fitting Oshtur into all of this, since she is decidedly depicted as much, much lower than the above in the vast majority of times. But this is a topic for the next thread, anyway.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

@Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @TheUnshakableOne @Deceived3596 @TheGreatJedi13

Not a staff and also not too familiar with Type 5 Acausality.

But reading through TOAA and Phoenix Force profile it does seem to have heavy implications that the process of moving from the past to the future (The past dies and the future is born) is called the fire of becoming. there is also the implication that in issue #3 all of them are being tested to whether they be led to Knowledge or to the Abyss on which the Fire of Becoming decides for them (Spoilers they died to the fire and are now in the Abyss). Which i guess is what Turning is all about as mentioned in this scans
We generally don't assume Past and Future are synonymous to Cause and effect so If provided that they are synonymous or one of the same it might qualify for being transcendent to causality. The Fire of becoming is pretty much implied to be necessary in order for change or turning to happen.
I read Issues #2, 3, and 4 and there is nothing more to it in relation to or implies to Acausality/Causality aside from what I brought up.

I'll let Glassman12 decide if he thinks it's enough to qualify. It's also possible to refer to something else rather than causality when it says the past dies and the future is born

 

[Ultima_Reality]

We generally don't assume Past and Future are synonymous to Cause and effect so If provided that they are synonymous or one of the same it might qualify for being transcendent to causality

It's not really just "past" and "future," exactly. The idea is moreso that any kind of change and dynamism has its root in the White-Hot Room's fires (Hence it's stated to "turn the cosmos"), which includes the end and rebirth of all past and future (The omniverse).

In the thread where the current standards for Type 5 Acausality were laid out, it was agreed that immutability by virtue of transcending change (i.e The Ultimate Gods from Cthulhu Mythos) does qualify for it, and that's pretty much exactly what this is.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

It's not really just "past" and "future," exactly. The idea is moreso that any kind of change and dynamism has its root in the White-Hot Room's fires (Hence it's stated to "turn the cosmos"), which includes the end and rebirth of all past and future (The omniverse).

I picked that up after reading the Issue as a whole so more or less I'm leaning toward agreeing but I'll still wait for Glass's response.

 

[Eseseso]

Are Watchers High 1-B? I just wanna know before grace for this thread starts.

And is God Emperor Doom Low 1-A or High 1-A?

 

[Gasper]

Are Watchers High 1-B? I just wanna know before grace for this thread starts.

I think they sould downscale from celestials, so yes.

And is God Emperor Doom Low 1-A or High 1-A?

Proly High 1-A?

 

[Antvasima]

Also, any extra keys for Thanos and Adam Warlock based on out of continuity stories by Starlin will obviously have to be removed or placed on other, non-canon, pages for the characters in question.

There is also the issue that Odin's inconsistent power levels are not due to the lack of Odinsleep, but rather just very inconsistent and lazy writing.

It is fine nowadays, but the Hulk only shook an infinite number of planets, not their entire universes, and he only reached that far due to the range of the interdimensional range of the Crossroads nexus, and Ironclad performed the feat together with him. So the feat would only be High 3-A as far as I am aware.

I also much prefer if we keep our current header image for The Beyonder, as it is much better suited for our standard formatting, especially given our upcoming infobox project.

Beyonder

The Beyonder is a young member of the ancient race of multiversal engineers known as The Beyonders, and by far its most infamous and well-known one. Having incubated within a specialized "womb-space" created by his progenitors for an unknown amount of time, the Beyonder eventually became aware...

vsbattles.fandom.com

So about these issues...

 

[Gasper]

So about these issues...

1. Yeah, that's one of the things Ultima is proposing. Above All Others is getting his own profile too.

2. Have no opinion on this.

3. And that's fine imo.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Also, any extra keys for Thanos and Adam Warlock based on out of continuity stories by Starlin will obviously have to be removed or placed on other, non-canon, pages for the characters in question.

There is also the issue that Odin's inconsistent power levels are not due to the lack of Odinsleep, but rather just very inconsistent and lazy writing.

Of course. I'll probably separate Thanos' higher keys into their own profile called "Thanos (Jim Starlin's Infinity Saga)" or something like that.

As I said, Odin's profile will be more thoroughly tackled in the next thread, since that's where the Gods will be looked at and revised. For the moment, I just presented his slightly altered profile as a model for what characters on that level will look like, with the accepted revisions.

I also much prefer if we keep our current header image for The Beyonder, as it is much better suited for our standard formatting, especially given our upcoming infobox project.

Is this strictly necessary? I have to say I much prefer the pictures used. Beats a bland render, in my opinion.

 

[Eseseso]

Of course. I'll probably separate Thanos' higher keys into their own profile called "Thanos (Jim Starlin's Infinity Saga)" or something like that.

As I said, Odin's profile will be more thoroughly tackled in the next thread, since that's where the Gods will be looked at and revised. For the moment, I just presented his slightly altered profile as a model for what characters on that level will look like, with the accepted revisions.


Is this strictly necessary? I have to say I much prefer the pictures used. Beats a bland render, in my opinion.

Are Watchers High 1-B? I just wanna know before grace for this thread starts.

And is God Emperor Doom Low 1-A or High 1-A?

Sorry but is what Gasper suggested above fine with you?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Sorry but is what Gasper suggested above fine with you?

Uatu was generally portrayed as comparable to Galactus' hungrier states in older stories, overall in the same era where Galactus and Odin were often described as rivals in power. High 1-B is probably fine for the Watchers.

God Doom is Low 1-A, probably.

 

[Antvasima]

Of course. I'll probably separate Thanos' higher keys into their own profile called "Thanos (Jim Starlin's Infinity Saga)" or something like that.

Okay. That is good then.

As I said, Odin's profile will be more thoroughly tackled in the next thread, since that's where the Gods will be looked at and revised. For the moment, I just presented his slightly altered profile as a model for what characters on that level will look like, with the accepted revisions.

Okay. That is also good. I would prefer if we stop pretending that the inconsistent writing is always due to the Odinsleep though.

Is this strictly necessary? I have to say I much prefer the pictures used. Beats a bland render, in my opinion.

Full body image renders are our standard structure, especially in comparison with images that feature other characters as well, and it also fits much better for our upcoming infobox addition project.

 

[Gasper]

God Doom is Low 1-A, probably.

Didn't he have the powers from Molecule Man or something? Or do we not scale that to full powered Molecule Man automatically?

 

[Eseseso]

Didn't he have the powers from Molecule Man or something? Or do we not scale that to full powered Molecule Man automatically?

I mean IMO he should at least scale to either one Beyonder or above Lifebringer Galactus...

Uatu was generally portrayed as comparable to Galactus' hungrier states in older stories, overall in the same era where Galactus and Odin were often described as rivals in power. High 1-B is probably fine for the Watchers.

Yay.

God Doom is Low 1-A, probably.

And would he have the same P&A as one of the Beyonders (as well as one of the Cosmic Cubes since the Beyonders have all the P&A of the Cosmic Cube)?

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Haven’t read everything yet but in terms of speed I wanted to mention this feat from mjolnir in Thor (2020) issue 21. Sif bfr’s thing beyond the farthest point of know existence, an incalculable distance a place were even abstracts don’t know about. But it kinda just comes back in a few seconds

Spoiler

Would this be something to consider for speed or?

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

After reading most of this I pretty much agree with everything expect for three characters that will probably cause some trouble later. I know that Odin is supposed to be reviewed more later but he has been stated to be able to kill the phoniex force before

Spoiler

Odin was also implied to have a hand in the phoniex cycle of creation.His odinsword(which he made) has also been stated to have the power to destroy everything. So take that for what you will

As for celestals in Avengers vol 8 issue 5 the celestials creamed the avengers BC which consisted of Odin,fire hair(phoniex force),agamotto,starbrand and ghost rider.

Spoiler

so I think this might cause problems in the tiers and scaling

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

There’s also some stuff on Nyx and Zeus that probably needs to be discussed as well . But that will be for later

 

[Antvasima]

Didn't he have the powers from Molecule Man or something? Or do we not scale that to full powered Molecule Man automatically?

As far as I understand, he only channelled a small part of the Molecule Man's power.

 

[Antvasima]

Oblivion's page also needs to be revised btw.

Oblivion (Marvel Comics)

Oblivion is a character from Marvel Comics. It is nonexistence itself, residing beyond the multiverse and all the abstract personifications that make up its totality. While entities such as Eternity, Infinity, Death and The Living Tribunal are connected to creation, and personify concepts...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Gasper]

Oblivion's page also needs to be revised btw.

Oblivion (Marvel Comics)

Oblivion is a character from Marvel Comics. It is nonexistence itself, residing beyond the multiverse and all the abstract personifications that make up its totality. While entities such as Eternity, Infinity, Death and The Living Tribunal are connected to creation, and personify concepts...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Question from me: "is there any reason why you didn't make profile for Oblivion and Chaos king or you didn't have the time yet?"

Ultima's answer: the latter.

 

[Hasty12345]

seems like Ultima is being asked to do quite a lot, is there a way the abstracts could have a physiology page that could link the bulk of their shared abilities for the sake of efficiency, is there anything else that could be done to help Ultima speed up the process?

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Making a page for the abstracts physiology seems really good since all of them are described with similar powers in the handbooks.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

After reading most of this I pretty much agree with everything expect for three characters that will probably cause some trouble later. I know that Odin is supposed to be reviewed more later but he has been stated to be able to kill the phoniex force before

Spoiler

Odin was also implied to have a hand in the phoniex cycle of creation.His odinsword(which he made) has also been stated to have the power to destroy everything. So take that for what you will

As for celestals in Avengers vol 8 issue 5 the celestials creamed the avengers BC which consisted of Odin,fire hair(phoniex force),agamotto,starbrand and ghost rider.

Spoiler

so I think this might cause problems in the tiers and scaling

WoG is not always right. There is author statements that odin is at planet level which is false

 

[Ultima_Reality]

seems like Ultima is being asked to do quite a lot, is there a way the abstracts could have a physiology page that could link the bulk of their shared abilities for the sake of efficiency, is there anything else that could be done to help Ultima speed up the process?

As I see it, an all-out physiology page is not necessary. The powers which the Abstracts share aren't that many, and quite a few of them display abilities unique to themselves that nobody else ever showed (i.e Eternity surviving being erased by taking on another aspect of himself that personifies the void left after the universe's destruction).

so I think this might cause problems in the tiers and scaling

We already accept the Celestials being quite far above Odin and the like, so, that doesn't seem problematic. At most, the fact Firehair is there could cause issues, but we already know Phoenix Force hosts are variable in power, anyway (Rachel Summers was overpowered by the Beyonder back in Secret Wars II), unless Firehair has some feats/statements I'm unaware of.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Ah, shit, I missed the other things...

After reading most of this I pretty much agree with everything expect for three characters that will probably cause some trouble later. I know that Odin is supposed to be reviewed more later but he has been stated to be able to kill the phoniex force before

Spoiler

Odin was also implied to have a hand in the phoniex cycle of creation.His odinsword(which he made) has also been stated to have the power to destroy everything. So take that for what you will

Odin being able to kill the Phoenix is honestly quite stupid just off of comparing their respective feats and their standing in the pecking order, so, I'd chalk that up as an inconsistent statement.

The cycle of creation stuff is to be discussed in the thread after this one, since, as said, it'll be where I look over the role the mythical Gods have in the cosmology. They're quite neglected at present.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

WoG is not always right. There is author statements that odin is at planet level which is false

True but it lines up with what is stated in universe

As I see it, an all-out physiology page is not necessary. The powers which the Abstracts share aren't that many, and quite a few of them display abilities unique to themselves that nobody else ever showed (i.e Eternity surviving being erased by taking on another aspect of himself that personifies the void left after the universe's destruction).


We already accept the Celestials being quite far above Odin and the like, so, that doesn't seem problematic. At most, the fact Firehair is there could cause issues, but we already know Phoenix Force hosts are variable in power, anyway (Rachel Summers was overpowered by the Beyonder back in Secret Wars II), unless Firehair has some feats/statements I'm unaware of.

I was more referring to his feats and them scaling above it like with the odinsword. There was also something about watchers going made from witnessing his feats.do regular phoniex host usually beat Beyonders? idk to much about her but apparently her and Odin made creation

Spoiler

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Ah, shit, I missed the other things...


Odin being able to kill the Phoenix is honestly quite stupid just off of comparing their respective feats and their standing in the pecking order, so, I'd chalk that up as an inconsistent statement.

The cycle of creation stuff is to be discussed in the thread after this one, since, as said, it'll be where I look over the role the mythical Gods have in the cosmology. They're quite neglected at present.

Well Odin’s sword(which he made) was powerful enough to spilt Yggdrasil down the middle soooo.

ok fair enough

also what do think of the speed thing?

Haven’t read everything yet but in terms of speed I wanted to mention this feat from mjolnir in Thor (2020) issue 21. Sif bfr’s thing beyond the farthest point of know existence, an incalculable distance a place were even abstracts don’t know about. But it kinda just comes back in a few seconds

Spoiler

Would this be something to consider for speed or?

 

[Eseseso]

And would God Doom have the same P&A as one of the Beyonders (as well as one of the Cosmic Cubes since the Beyonders have all the P&A of the Cosmic Cube)?

And for Uatu, asides from being High 1-B, Watchers are stated in Fantastic Four #373-5 and #398-400 to be powered by the Power Cosmic, so they should have the P&A of the Surfer but on a larger scale.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

And for Uatu, asides from being High 1-B, Watchers are stated in Fantastic Four #373-5 and #398-400 to be powered by the Power Cosmic, so they should have the P&A of the Surfer but on a larger scale.

I was thinking, what about creating a page for specific verse power for the Power Cosmic?

 

[Eseseso]

I was thinking, what about creating a page for specific verse power for the Power Cosmic?

I'm considering that, actually, once I'm done with Marvel Magic.

I've mentioned it before on this thread IIRC.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

I'm considering that, actually, once I'm done with Marvel Magic.

I've mentioned it before on this thread IIRC.

It would be great and make things easier, as a really lot of characters display this power. Galactus, Silver Surfer, heralds, Watchers, Celestials, Eternity, Thor in his herald form... and so on.

What do you think Ultima? (I can't ping him so I would apreciate if somebody could do this)

 

[Gasper]

So... what should we do here now? I think the only real thing to do is to wait on what staff think about Acausality Type 5 and that's it?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm fine with it.