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Thanks for the correction. I believe I'm mixing the rift that Odin wanted with Chaos itself.
Sorry for the double post.
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Removal of God of War's "Type 1 Concept Manipulation"
- Thread starter Deagonx
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Sorry for the double post.
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- Thread starter
- #162
I understand what you mean, but I'll try to organize my thoughts better:
To start, it's not clear to me whether or not the phrase "all of reality" in our CM standards refers to an entire fictional setting, full stop, or if it can be justified through some kind of separation between two sections of the same fiction (other than, perhaps, R>F transcendence). Second, if it is the case that there can be two Type 1 Concepts of the same thing in a verse, it is unclear to me what kind of a separation is needed.
Moreover, defining that separation with terminology like "reality" "universe" "multiverse" "omniverse" "realm" "existence" etc. is essentially impossible because the meanings of these terms mean something different everywhere you go. One man's universe is another man's multiverse is another man's omniverse. And finally, the fact that Kratos managed to travel to Midgard suggests to me that the separation between them is likely not such that we could justify that, but since I'm not clear on what the standard is, I can't really say yet.
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The "came on a boat" argument is something that's been addressed repeatedly since 2019. I am happy to do that again but this feels like trying to question an entirely unrelated aspect of the verse from the topic at hand.
There's a whole section on separation that talks about it in the Explanation page.
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- Thread starter
- #164
I didn't mention a boat. My point is that Kratos' ability to reach Midgard at all is indicative to me that the separation may not be as absolute as what might be required for there to be two Type 1 Concepts. However, that depends on if such a thing is permissible at all and under what circumstances.
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- Thread starter
- #165
Ultima got back to me on Discord. It would seem that we do indeed tend to let identical Type 1 Concepts co-exist in a fiction with relatively limited separation. As in, according to Ultima, it could be the case that a multiverse has a different "Death" for each individual universe and we'd still let each one be Type 1 in theory.
Really not a fan of that, given the wording on the CM page, but that's beyond the scope of this thread. In any case, that section of my response to Pepsiman can be disregarded.
Really not a fan of that, given the wording on the CM page, but that's beyond the scope of this thread. In any case, that section of my response to Pepsiman can be disregarded.
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So are any of you willing to try to convince @Ultima_Reality that these characters can affect true abstract concepts?
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@Antvasima Me and Pepsiman responded to his points, we’re waiting for him to respond at this point.
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At this point, I do agree that better justification for concept manip than the souls is needed.
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Le update, since the thread's been quiet for some time
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@Firestorm808 I assume you agree with concept hax being a thing for god of war then if it needs a better justification then?
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Comparing the site standard to the following justifications, I do not.
1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.
- Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) (The Primordials predate the universe and time, having existed in the primordial realm of Chaos,[4] and were responsible for creating the entirety of the Greek World and all of its contents, be it physical or non-physical.[5] The universe itself was created[6] by[3] one of[7] them,[7] and they would exist long after it is reduced to chaos.[8] The Primordials are the literal concepts of the aspects of nature and reality that they represent[9] and are also synonymous with magic, which is itself a fundamental aspect of existence that predates, governs and exists independently of reality)
- (Souls are constructs of magic, composed of their form, the metaphysical nature of a being, their luck, their mind and their direction. Pulled off the soul of one of his worshippers and sent it directly to the Underworld with a mere gesture.[21] Damaging souls can shatter and fragment their memories as a consequence[22])
IE: I swapped the circle concept to a square, and all circle objects became square objects.
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@Firestorm808 Did you read Planck's entire post? Because he elaborates more on this, same with these as well.
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Entirely forgot about this.
It's been several days since the last comment prior to Firestorm's, it seems likely Ultima isn't coming. If he is (or if someone else is), he can just re-open it. Even with Firestorm's vote, the voting is significantly weighed enough towards Disagree to close.
Still, I'll wait for the immediate discussion to end, since Glass seems intent on pursuing it.
It's been several days since the last comment prior to Firestorm's, it seems likely Ultima isn't coming. If he is (or if someone else is), he can just re-open it. Even with Firestorm's vote, the voting is significantly weighed enough towards Disagree to close.
Still, I'll wait for the immediate discussion to end, since Glass seems intent on pursuing it.
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I have, and I'm not seeing the manipulation aspect. Other than souls, is there a different example of a concept being manipulated and affecting the lower objects?
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- Thread starter
- #176
This is a good point that got lost in the weeds during the discussion about whether the Primordials were concepts.
When discussing it with Ultima he pointed out that -- at face value -- the interactions between Gods don't appear to justify CM even if they are concepts, because the applications of CM (destroying/creating/altering concepts) don't seem to occur, because the explanation provided for why nothing happens to the world, despite these battles ending in the death of gods/primordials, is that the "concept" immediately transfers ownership or something like that (not really sure, it's sort of being provided ad-hoc to justify Earth being fine when Gaia dies.) So no creating, destroying, or altering.
The principle behind Concept Manip is that the world is affected through the user's ability to manipulate the concepts that substantiate everything. This never occurs in the series.
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alright, closing the thread.
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