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You did the same thing just now.
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Dragon Ball Heroes Special Ki Additions
- Thread starter Vietthai96
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The statement contradicts nothing. Tokipedia being a "Time Rift Version", doesn't contradict them being the same when the Time Scrolls have feats of recording these same Time Rifts aswell. What is the contradiction? The fact that it records Time Rifts just like the scrolls? Not only are you ignoring context again, but you're literally making up contradictions that don't even exist lol. Chronoa doesn't record these Time Rifts since she considers them the "unofficial" history that won't affect the "true timeline" so they're not recorded in the Time Scrolls, making the Tokipedia the "Time Rift Edition" for recording these "unofficial" histories. If Chronoa deems something as "unofficial" then it's likely not gonna be recorded, simple as that. Both the SKOT Demigra Time Rift and the Bardock Time Rift have already proven that the scrolls can record these Time Rifts and these "unofficial" histories if necessary, so stop making up contradictions when they don't exist
By showing multiple scans of the Tokipedia not being affected by Time EE. If the information cannot be destroyed by destroying the container, then it's not a chain-reaction since you're not destroying what it contains. And false, Vegeta flat-out stated that the timeline was gone, not to mention the fact that even the Time Ring was gone too, unless you want to explain why there's only 6 Time Rings left at the end of the arc, instead of 7.
You ignored the parts where he was stated to be formed from literal evil thoughts and ideas, and once again nitpicked statements. The "evil gas" and spirit statements only further supports his formless nature as literal evil. Again, are you seriously claiming that the very evil in a person's heart is just some random energy or gas? That's blatantly untrue and you know it. Evil is abstract by its very nature and SB Janemba could even be reborn from his evil energy. Janemba is a being of pure evil and evil energy, simple as that. Evil beings have evil energy, so Janemba being made from pure evil itself makes him a being of evil energy aswell. Evil energy can't exist without actual evil itself. Literally basic DB logic. He is both a being made of pure evil in a person's heart/evil ideas & thoughts, and evil energy.
Not to mention the fact that you're contradicting yourself with your "gas" argument. Energy=/=gas. If you're trying to claim that Janemba is only made of gas, then you're contradicting your own argument that he is made from evil energy, since energy/ki is definitely not the same as gas lmao. Stop nitpicking statements and actually take a look at the bigger picture
The fact that he can destroy evil itself so that evil will have never existed. You do realize that if Sealas doesn't destroy evil itself, then evil people will appear in his new reality anyway. Killing all the wicked people in the multiverse is meaningless since evil is bound to reappear again in one form or another. That's the nature of evil. Sealas literally has a similar conversation with Beat where Beat claims that he'll defeat all evil beings who rear their heads in the future and he just brushes him off as a simpleton child, practically mocking him for such foolish beliefs. The notion that Sealas will succeed in his plans by simply killing all evil beings is literal nonsense. As long as the concept of evil exists, evil beings and acts will resurface one way or another, basic logic. You're literally putting Sealas in an endless cycle of resurfacing evil which he's trying to avoid by eliminating evil itself entirely. LordGriffin explained it pretty decently. And as for the plothole, it's literally resolved with a single conclusion. Base Sealas can't burn the scrolls. As I've made it expliticly clear with the Tokipedia, not even time erasure works on the scrolls, so Base Sealas has literally no chance of destroying the scrolls. Getting the power to beat up the Time Patrol is a bonus, as he was going to use the power to create the new world as he himself stated so
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Because they're not indirectly destroying a concept. The Scrolls themselves are made by Time Power users, so they're literally manipulating information to contain them in a scroll. Not to mention the fact that the records themselves can't even be destroyed "indirectly" as I've shown with the Tokipedia. If the destruction of the container does absolutely nothing to the recorded concepts/information, then how is it "indirectly" destroying the information/concepts. You need to directly affect the recorded information/concept, simple as that
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I mean, the fact that they need to destroy Time Scroll to get rid of the evi still remains unchanged; let say if the fight (between different verses) takes place in a neutral place (i.e SBA), this conceptual hax will not be applicable since there is no Time Scroll in the fight at all? That's what I'm understanding when you say that destroying Time Scroll is needed to destroy the concept of evil, because characters with actual conceptual hax can just straight up erase it without necessarily affecting other things.
Also I don't say that the records can be destroyed indirectly, I'm referring to the concept of evil within another structure being destroyed indirectly.
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I don’t think that’s how the abstraction of neutral universes during vs matches work, otherwise the infinity Gauntlet wouldn’t be useable in any match.
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@LordGriffin1000 the problem is there needs to be some elaboration on what exactly is being done here that would come to the conclusion that the concept of evil itself is being destroyed. Without the solid evidence that Sealas is specifically trying to destroy the concept of evil as opposed to just nuking the timelines that just has bad folks, we don't assume that. It's the same as if someone states they'd make sure "no trace of you remains", and nothing in the series remotely implies abilities like Existence erasure is a thing, we don't automatically assume EE unless shown otherwise.
Yeah that's fine, I'll see if I can't get any other staff members to comment here.
@Ottavio_Merluzzo because you weren't even attempting to make an argument and just strawman me, if you have anything to offer to the debate beyond simple strawmanning then I'd love to see any scans to answer my questions.
@Dagoth_OwO Can you please post scans on your claims? Because saying stuff is legit without really posting anything is not helping yourself and others when they're trying to understand your arguments, on top of that, it doesn't prove they're warping literal concepts and information in order to destroy the time scrolls. Throughout this entire thread you haven't proven that this is a necessity to destroy time scrolls.
So you just admit that they don't destroy the information then, that just further proves they don't have information hax to begin with, let alone concept hax for destroying time scrolls. And why should I take vegeta's word seriously when he's not that knowledgeable on how timelines work compared to whis who said the timeline is still intact thanks to going back to before it was nuked on top of the fact that time travel is still possible?
Which again proves abstract concept for Janemba how? Because energy itself isn't a concept, also he's never stated to be a being of pure evil, he's just a demon forged from the energy collected by evil beings as stated in one of your translations. Also where exactly am I contradicting my point because your translations literally states he's made from evil vapor/gas. By your own logic you're contradicting yourself by using the evil gas statement with evil energy.
Where exactly did he say he'd destroy the concept of evil itself? Cause his entire goal is just to nuke the timelines and make new ones to replace all the evil people there, you need explicit statements for this to pass. Prove it right now that Sealas flat out cannot destroy the scrolls, give the scan right ******* now and stop dodging my question, if you cannot remotely try to answer this despite having 4 staff members disagree with you right now, then we're moving on with the discussion with the other abilities.
Yeah that's fine, I'll see if I can't get any other staff members to comment here.
@Ottavio_Merluzzo because you weren't even attempting to make an argument and just strawman me, if you have anything to offer to the debate beyond simple strawmanning then I'd love to see any scans to answer my questions.
@Dagoth_OwO Can you please post scans on your claims? Because saying stuff is legit without really posting anything is not helping yourself and others when they're trying to understand your arguments, on top of that, it doesn't prove they're warping literal concepts and information in order to destroy the time scrolls. Throughout this entire thread you haven't proven that this is a necessity to destroy time scrolls.
So you just admit that they don't destroy the information then, that just further proves they don't have information hax to begin with, let alone concept hax for destroying time scrolls. And why should I take vegeta's word seriously when he's not that knowledgeable on how timelines work compared to whis who said the timeline is still intact thanks to going back to before it was nuked on top of the fact that time travel is still possible?
Which again proves abstract concept for Janemba how? Because energy itself isn't a concept, also he's never stated to be a being of pure evil, he's just a demon forged from the energy collected by evil beings as stated in one of your translations. Also where exactly am I contradicting my point because your translations literally states he's made from evil vapor/gas. By your own logic you're contradicting yourself by using the evil gas statement with evil energy.
Where exactly did he say he'd destroy the concept of evil itself? Cause his entire goal is just to nuke the timelines and make new ones to replace all the evil people there, you need explicit statements for this to pass. Prove it right now that Sealas flat out cannot destroy the scrolls, give the scan right ******* now and stop dodging my question, if you cannot remotely try to answer this despite having 4 staff members disagree with you right now, then we're moving on with the discussion with the other abilities.
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Fair point.
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1- Whis never said the timeline is still intact. He was clearly talking about a different timeline there,since Whis himself said Trunks and Mai would've encountered other versions of themselves.
2- The Time Machine uses coordinates,so as long as the space between timelines isn't nuked,it is possible to travel to an erased timeline. You'll just end up in a void.
This is common knowledge to anyone who has actually watched Dragon Ball.
Plus Goku is shown to be able to breath in that void when he clearly shouldn't be able to, so why should that scene be taken seriously?
The Time Ring Is also gone,so the argument goes poof.
This argument has been continuosly debunked since 2017. You can literally pick any random thread on the topic and see for yourself.
3- Janemba is stated to be pure evil. And this is just one scan of many that have already been posted.
2- The Time Machine uses coordinates,so as long as the space between timelines isn't nuked,it is possible to travel to an erased timeline. You'll just end up in a void.
This is common knowledge to anyone who has actually watched Dragon Ball.
Plus Goku is shown to be able to breath in that void when he clearly shouldn't be able to, so why should that scene be taken seriously?
The Time Ring Is also gone,so the argument goes poof.
This argument has been continuosly debunked since 2017. You can literally pick any random thread on the topic and see for yourself.
3- Janemba is stated to be pure evil. And this is just one scan of many that have already been posted.
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Glass is just nitpicking at this point and stonewalling as well
Braking
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Infinite zamasu is considered an abstract due to being “pure will” or the “Twisted idea of justice and order”. Janemba on the other hand in one of the scans was stated to be the embodiment of Evil ideas. And plus for like the 7th time many other characters have ab type 1 because of “ideas” (like persona). So if this would get denied then all the others who got ab for this reason needs to be revised.
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@Theglassman12 Scans of what? The Scrolls being capable of recording and containing these Time Rifts and "unofficial" histories if required, or the rifts being an "unofficial" history and not the "true timeline" thus won't be recorded by Chronoa? Because I've posted these scan several times in this thread already. I wonder why I need to post these same scans again for the hundreth time in this thread. Time Scrolls can record Time Rifts if required. It's literally a matter of choice. The scrolls contain info which can't be destroyed normally, thus you need to affect the info directly. Very simple.
Good job misinterpreting my point again. Where did I ever admit that they can't destroy information lol. If the destroying the container doesn't destroy the information itself, then you'd logically need to affect information directly. And you're severely underestimating this Vegeta's knowledge considering at this point he has more than enough experience dealing with parallel dimensions. Ottavio has already addressed the timeline feat. The simple fact that there are only 6 Time Rings left in the end and not 7, already is enough proof of the timeline's erasure. The scrolls are even capable of containing places that lack history entirely and are outside of spacetime and history.
Evil itself is abstract and Janemba has clear evidence to prove that he's formed from literal evil thoughts and ideas themselves. Oh, and btw, what was it that you said about Janemba, that "he's never stated to be a being of pure evil" hmm? How about you never again dare to claim that I'm accusing you of ignorance for no reason lmfao. So you are actually claiming that the very evil in a person's heart is just some energy lol. Anyways, by your own logic of nitpicking statements, since you're only using the "gas" statements to completely ignore the evil thoughts and ideals statements, Janemba is not a being of evil energy either, but of only gas because of those same statements that you're nitpicking to ignore the other statements. If you're gonna nitpick, atleast be consistent about it. I'm not contradicting anything since I'm actually taking into consideration all the presented statements, unlike you who nitpicks statements to support his agenda. The very evil in a man's heart is objectively not just energy lol.
The fact that his new world is entirely removed from evil itself, like Janemba who is literal evil itself is clear proof. If a being like Janemba can't exist in Sealas' world then all evil thoughts and ideas are clearly removed for good. Also, you mean the goal which by your logic he could have already pulled off even without the scrolls? Good job turning the entirety of World Mission into a living plothole, you've actually outdone yourself this time lmfao. I'm not dodging anything. You're the one desperately ignoring and dodging the Tokipedia scans since they utterly debunk your ridiculous downplay. The Tokipedia being unaffected by time EE is blatant proof that Base Sealas can't destroy the scrolls. None of your excuses so far can debunk the Tokipedia scaling to the Time Scrolls.
Good job misinterpreting my point again. Where did I ever admit that they can't destroy information lol. If the destroying the container doesn't destroy the information itself, then you'd logically need to affect information directly. And you're severely underestimating this Vegeta's knowledge considering at this point he has more than enough experience dealing with parallel dimensions. Ottavio has already addressed the timeline feat. The simple fact that there are only 6 Time Rings left in the end and not 7, already is enough proof of the timeline's erasure. The scrolls are even capable of containing places that lack history entirely and are outside of spacetime and history.
Evil itself is abstract and Janemba has clear evidence to prove that he's formed from literal evil thoughts and ideas themselves. Oh, and btw, what was it that you said about Janemba, that "he's never stated to be a being of pure evil" hmm? How about you never again dare to claim that I'm accusing you of ignorance for no reason lmfao. So you are actually claiming that the very evil in a person's heart is just some energy lol. Anyways, by your own logic of nitpicking statements, since you're only using the "gas" statements to completely ignore the evil thoughts and ideals statements, Janemba is not a being of evil energy either, but of only gas because of those same statements that you're nitpicking to ignore the other statements. If you're gonna nitpick, atleast be consistent about it. I'm not contradicting anything since I'm actually taking into consideration all the presented statements, unlike you who nitpicks statements to support his agenda. The very evil in a man's heart is objectively not just energy lol.
The fact that his new world is entirely removed from evil itself, like Janemba who is literal evil itself is clear proof. If a being like Janemba can't exist in Sealas' world then all evil thoughts and ideas are clearly removed for good. Also, you mean the goal which by your logic he could have already pulled off even without the scrolls? Good job turning the entirety of World Mission into a living plothole, you've actually outdone yourself this time lmfao. I'm not dodging anything. You're the one desperately ignoring and dodging the Tokipedia scans since they utterly debunk your ridiculous downplay. The Tokipedia being unaffected by time EE is blatant proof that Base Sealas can't destroy the scrolls. None of your excuses so far can debunk the Tokipedia scaling to the Time Scrolls.
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@Ottavio_Merluzzo no he literally said they're going back to the time before it was erased, not that he's taking them to an alternate timeline, this is just basic back to the future logic where they'd run into their past selves in the same timeline.
So we shouldn't be able to take the scene seriously because goku being able to breath in the void but not the entire part of time travel, yeah ok that totally makes sense here and isn't just cherrypicking.
Yeah, made from the evil energy collected in hell, doesn't really mean concept, especially type 1 concept.
@Greatsage13th how about you guys answer my questions with scans so that I can see why the abilities are accepted instead of accusing me of stonewalling when I've accepted Memory hax and resistance to attack reflection and time powers and Chronoa scaling to time bird and the space time pocket dimension for god ki because you guys gave me some solid evidence for these being the case?
@Braking I don't really see evil ideas being mentioned here, also Fu saying that doesn't really mean the concepts of justice is a thing in dragon ball, that sounds like metaphorical speech on how some ideas aren't as black and white.
@Dagoth_OwO literally any of your claims that you're making in general, because you rarely post any scans while saying "there's proof that this is a thing", makes it really hard to understand where exactly is the proof when you don't show the proof to begin with.
Except that you guys are scaling the information/concept hax to destroying the containers (time scrolls) to everyone in the first place, meaning it wouldn't scale at all to begin with.
The pure evil manifested in a physical form doesn't prove Janemba himself is a literal concept, at best he's an embodiment, and if we're going to assume that he is an abstract being, none of the scans remotely prove it being a type 1 concept in the first place, something you're trying to push for.
Which you haven't proven that the concept of evil would be erased by Sealas if his plans succeeded, which is important for this to be accepted. I didn't make a plot hole, the script writers for DBH did, all I did was point out said plot hole. Also nothing in your scans remotely imply anything about Sealas, so that's a complete non-sequiter. If this is really all you guys have at this point then sorry to break it to you but as of now the abilities won't be accepted on the pages, especially with 4-5 staff members disagreeing here. So let's move on to the other abilities before we finish this thread.
So we shouldn't be able to take the scene seriously because goku being able to breath in the void but not the entire part of time travel, yeah ok that totally makes sense here and isn't just cherrypicking.
Yeah, made from the evil energy collected in hell, doesn't really mean concept, especially type 1 concept.
@Greatsage13th how about you guys answer my questions with scans so that I can see why the abilities are accepted instead of accusing me of stonewalling when I've accepted Memory hax and resistance to attack reflection and time powers and Chronoa scaling to time bird and the space time pocket dimension for god ki because you guys gave me some solid evidence for these being the case?
@Braking I don't really see evil ideas being mentioned here, also Fu saying that doesn't really mean the concepts of justice is a thing in dragon ball, that sounds like metaphorical speech on how some ideas aren't as black and white.
@Dagoth_OwO literally any of your claims that you're making in general, because you rarely post any scans while saying "there's proof that this is a thing", makes it really hard to understand where exactly is the proof when you don't show the proof to begin with.
Except that you guys are scaling the information/concept hax to destroying the containers (time scrolls) to everyone in the first place, meaning it wouldn't scale at all to begin with.
The pure evil manifested in a physical form doesn't prove Janemba himself is a literal concept, at best he's an embodiment, and if we're going to assume that he is an abstract being, none of the scans remotely prove it being a type 1 concept in the first place, something you're trying to push for.
Which you haven't proven that the concept of evil would be erased by Sealas if his plans succeeded, which is important for this to be accepted. I didn't make a plot hole, the script writers for DBH did, all I did was point out said plot hole. Also nothing in your scans remotely imply anything about Sealas, so that's a complete non-sequiter. If this is really all you guys have at this point then sorry to break it to you but as of now the abilities won't be accepted on the pages, especially with 4-5 staff members disagreeing here. So let's move on to the other abilities before we finish this thread.
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Making a new post for this to make it easier to follow.
Age Manipulation (time power): Any scans on this? IT STAYS
Paralysis inducement (time power): [/B]Is there any scans to indicate that it's time power doing the paralysis because the gif doesn't really tell me much. IT STAYS
Reality Warping and Subjective reality (time power): None of the scans indicate reality warping, especially when the first scan is Fu needing the time bird with demon realm ki in order to do it, and the rest is just maintaining timelines, which is just a sustaining feat at best and not literal reality warping. Where exactly in the Bardock/Mira scan is it implied that they can take one's desires and manifest it to reality because the clip doesn't show me anything about this. REALITY WARPING STAYS
Void hax and NPI (time power): Where's the statement that the crack of time is a literal void? Especially if the crack of time is a demon realm when it's just stated to be a space, not a literal void? POSSIBLY
Durability Negation (time power): Any scans on the characters being able to bypass durability with affecting space time would be nice, cause there's no scans on that at all. IT GOES AWAY
Purification (Time power): Is there any indication that the time powers can literally purify the demon powers here because again, time bird blowing up an area doesn't tell me much when he nukes the source of the demon fuckery and everything turns to normal. TYPE 3 STAYS
Morality Manipulation (Dark Ki): Where in the scans does it say that they turn sides based on morality as opposed to it being just mind control? Especially when the scans say they're being mind controlled? Also nothing about the scans for enhanced dark ki imply it's more potent than before, especially when you're using Chronoa being corrupted as proof despite using her being corrupted as evidence for the weaker version of dark ki? None of that makes any sense here. IT STAYS
Radiation Hax (Dark Ki): Where's the proof it's the exact same thing as the Blutz wave? It literally just gives Vegeta SSJ4 and skips the entire Oozaru form, something the Blutz wave does in the first place so it's not even comparable.IT STAYS
Physics and Law hax (Dark Ki): Like I said, the scan literally shows Fu using the power of the dark demon realm and the time bird to do this in the first place. So this doesn't remotely count for dark ki, just something specific that Fu did.
Power Modification and Power null (Dark Ki): Nothing in the description remotely implies them actively modifying or nulling the powers, just changing the timeline, so unless they actually modify the powers or nullify it, this wouldn't count. IT GOES AWAY
Resistance to Dark Ki (God Ki): The fact the time bird got affected by transmutation from dark ki despite being a god doesn't really tell me that they resist every single application of Dark Ki, at best this seems like they resist the mind control aspects of dark ki, not literally everything else. IT GOES AWAY
Resistance to Possession (God Ki): The time bird and universe tree was the reason Goku resists this, so this isn't even a normal god ki resistance in the first place. IT GOES AWAY
Resistance to Power Null (Dark Factor): The fact the dragon can nullify Mechi's mind control despite saying he can't do anything about it doesn't really make it consistent here, it's a contradiction if he can grant Demigra the ability to stop Mechi's mind control and also just the same old dragon balls rule of not affecting beings stronger than them. IT GOES AWAY
Resistance to Memory Hax (Dark Factor): Any scans on the Dark Factor resisting Android 21's waves? Cause nothing's there, also what about seeing your memories remotely imply a resistance if he doesn't resist his memories being tinkered in the scans?IT STAYS
Resistance to Space hax (Dark Factor): Nothing about this is warping space, just reversing time. IT GOES AWAY
Resistance to reality warping (Dark Factor): What part of this is a resistance if it just affects the environment and not the people itself? IT GOES AWAY
Corrosion Inducement (Destruction Ki): Nothing about Beerus and Champa's fight is corrosion, just more deconstruction/EE given their powers.IT STAYS
Paralysis and Telekinesis (Destruction Ki): Which one is it, telekinesis or paralysis cause you can't have both while claiming it's a telekinesis, also a gif would be nice. TEKELINESIS STAYS
Mind and Morality hax (Evil ki): [/B]Is it even mind control or morality hax when the scans are literally just goku and vegeta going insane with the ki? IT GOES AWAY
Limited Power absorption/nullification (evil ki): The scan seems weird, this just looks like the ki overpowered Vegeta's ki, not that it absorbed or nullified the energy for Vegeta. IT GOES AWAY
Also why are you guys using this scan for both Dark factor AND Dark Ki despite saying the former is better than the latter? Doesn't make it consistent here.
Also just a side tangent in general, but the Dark Factor and Evil Ki shouldn't be on the verse page given with new rules stated you need at least 5 users of the same ability for it to register as a standalone page. So Cumber's stuff shouldn't even be there, same applies to Dark Factor when Mechi and Fu are the only ones who scale to this.[/B]
Physics and Law hax (Dark Ki): Like I said, the scan literally shows Fu using the power of the dark demon realm and the time bird to do this in the first place. So this doesn't remotely count for dark ki, just something specific that Fu did.
Also why are you guys using this scan for both Dark factor AND Dark Ki despite saying the former is better than the latter? Doesn't make it consistent here.
Also just a side tangent in general, but the Dark Factor and Evil Ki shouldn't be on the verse page given with new rules stated you need at least 5 users of the same ability for it to register as a standalone page. So Cumber's stuff shouldn't even be there, same applies to Dark Factor when Mechi and Fu are the only ones who scale to this.[/B]
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Regarding age manipulation, it comes from toki toki's feat that turned fu into a child.
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@Theglassman12 Here's the problem Glass. It's not my fault that you're purposefully ignoring evidence. I have shown plenty of evidence that Tokipedia scales to the Time Scrolls several times in multiple comments, I've even shown feats of scrolls recording Time Rifts among other things, so you're actually lying here. This is actually pathetic behavior from a moderator. Thanks for conceding that the Tokipedia scales to the Time Scrolls btw.
False. We never scaled concept and info to literally everyone. Only Time Power users, Fused Sealas and Fu. If you had actually read the blog you'd know it, but you've established your ignorance many times.
Good job once again ignoring the scans of him being literal evil ideas and thoughts given form. The fact that you "can't see" evil ideas in this scan once again proves your ignorance. It's literally written in big text lol. Also nice job ignoring the evil thoughts scan. That aswell qualifies for being an abstract as stated in the AE page. Being a thought or idea qualifies for AE and Janemba has both statements, something which the other staff members agreed with. So not only are you ignoring scans but also the actual wiki standards lmao. At worst, it'd still be type 2 CM.
I seriously hope that this statement of yours is only referring to the Sealas CM part and not Janemba's conceptual stuff since that was agreed by most staff. It would be quite an abuse of power if you tried to get the Janemba stuff removed, despite major staff approval
Openly lying about me rarely providing scans, stonewalling and ignoring statements of Janemba being an abstract made of thoughts and ideals. Absolutely ridiculous behavior form a moderator.
False. We never scaled concept and info to literally everyone. Only Time Power users, Fused Sealas and Fu. If you had actually read the blog you'd know it, but you've established your ignorance many times.
Good job once again ignoring the scans of him being literal evil ideas and thoughts given form. The fact that you "can't see" evil ideas in this scan once again proves your ignorance. It's literally written in big text lol. Also nice job ignoring the evil thoughts scan. That aswell qualifies for being an abstract as stated in the AE page. Being a thought or idea qualifies for AE and Janemba has both statements, something which the other staff members agreed with. So not only are you ignoring scans but also the actual wiki standards lmao. At worst, it'd still be type 2 CM.
I seriously hope that this statement of yours is only referring to the Sealas CM part and not Janemba's conceptual stuff since that was agreed by most staff. It would be quite an abuse of power if you tried to get the Janemba stuff removed, despite major staff approval
Openly lying about me rarely providing scans, stonewalling and ignoring statements of Janemba being an abstract made of thoughts and ideals. Absolutely ridiculous behavior form a moderator.
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Concept and thought are not synonyms tho, if anything they just contradict to each other...Although even if he is literal concept, I'm not sure why destroying him can be conceptual hax instead of just NPI.
Vietthai96
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Pretty busy, but a quick response. Janemba major role is to support the fact the Evil that Sealas mentioned in his dialogue is not some flowery language but an actual fundamental abstract component of reality, that is a reason for a blog, since i'm not crazy enough to just throw only one mention of Evil and then start claiming it being a concept. There is something called supplement evidences and context, nothing will make sense if you isolating, dividing context and nitpicking them
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I never said that it's flowery language for once, what are you talking about? I'm saying that concept and thought are not the same so they can't be used to support each other.
And what I just said follows what I see in the scans and the arguments of your side, so if they are out of context then it's not my fault.
Vietthai96
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Again Sealas already stated, he can only remove Evil is erase all and reshape reality from scratch, if Evil is not a fundamental concept, then he didn't need to go that far. Also, Janemba was stated to be Evil Ideas, ideas is abstract by itself, concept down to it core is just a type of abstract, conceptual manipulation is a power that manipulating abstraction that can change physical reality, that all.
Also, look like you misunderstand something, i'm just explain, not blame you anything. Anyway need to go back to work
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I know that idea is concept, I only have problems with it being evil thought as opposed to the universal concept of evil, like if someone controls thought it means mind hax not conceptual hax.
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I'm not saying that concept=thought. What I'm saying is that Janemba has evidence to support AE whether it's conceptual/idea or thought. CM and AE comes from idea, but the thought statement acts as support for AE. Also Viet seems to have shed some light already
Braking
He/Him- 3,799
- 2,206
Braking
He/Him- 3,799
- 2,206
Fym?
- 165,220
- 72,249
Okay, so what can currently be applied then?
- 1,026
- 1,287
- 1,026
- 1,287
Very well. Although the CM stuff seems to be only accepted for Janemba stuff, not Sealas.
- 1,026
- 1,287
Perhaps
- 165,220
- 72,249
Okay, then only that can obviously be applied.
Braking
He/Him- 3,799
- 2,206
wdym by "I don't really see evil ideas being mentioned there" can you please explain why?
- 19,369
- 9,961
@Dagoth_OwO I never conceded once, I literally asked you several times to give me proof for concepts and info being a requirement to affect the scrolls and you've failed time and time again.
Oh really, what do you call this line right here where you scale this to normal dark ki users then?
Oh so you concede on my point that it's at best type 2 CM and not type 1 like you're claiming it is in the blog even if we assume Janemba's a concept? Thanks for conceding. Also good job not trying to respond to Delta's last comment there, totally consistent with you not being ignorant while claiming I'm ignorant huh?
Oh you mean the conceptual manipulation that's also tied to the time scrolls like the information hax is? Something that majority of the staff members disagreed with? Meaning that this ain't passing whatsoever unless you bring some actual evidence of this being the case?
Also actually address my other comment instead of ignoring it for the other special ki stuff, because ignoring it makes you a massive hypocrite when you're claiming I'm being the ignorant one.
@Gogeta then that should be used instead of the gogeta statement.
@Braking I just noticed the big text there, sorry about that, but is that really all there is? Just "evil ideas" with no elaboration on it? Cause saying evil ideas doesn't make him a concept.
@Antvasima Griffin's the only one who flat out said he agreed with concept hax at first but changed his mind when I explained to him how concept hax works. The fact DDM and Maverick share the same thoughts as Griffin for concept hax basically makes them agree with me since he conceded on the concept stuff, on top of them agreeing with me on information hax which both that and concept hax are used together with the time scrolls. So if they agree the info hax doesn't scale through time scrolls, then concept hax also doesn't scale.
Oh really, what do you call this line right here where you scale this to normal dark ki users then?
Did you even pretend to ignore this at all? Because it doesn't make your side look good here.
Oh so you concede on my point that it's at best type 2 CM and not type 1 like you're claiming it is in the blog even if we assume Janemba's a concept? Thanks for conceding. Also good job not trying to respond to Delta's last comment there, totally consistent with you not being ignorant while claiming I'm ignorant huh?
Oh you mean the conceptual manipulation that's also tied to the time scrolls like the information hax is? Something that majority of the staff members disagreed with? Meaning that this ain't passing whatsoever unless you bring some actual evidence of this being the case?
Also actually address my other comment instead of ignoring it for the other special ki stuff, because ignoring it makes you a massive hypocrite when you're claiming I'm being the ignorant one.
@Gogeta then that should be used instead of the gogeta statement.
@Braking I just noticed the big text there, sorry about that, but is that really all there is? Just "evil ideas" with no elaboration on it? Cause saying evil ideas doesn't make him a concept.
@Antvasima Griffin's the only one who flat out said he agreed with concept hax at first but changed his mind when I explained to him how concept hax works. The fact DDM and Maverick share the same thoughts as Griffin for concept hax basically makes them agree with me since he conceded on the concept stuff, on top of them agreeing with me on information hax which both that and concept hax are used together with the time scrolls. So if they agree the info hax doesn't scale through time scrolls, then concept hax also doesn't scale.
- 11,167
- 2,432
Denial.
Vietthai96
He/Him- 9,243
- 12,294
- Thread starter
- #400
Huh, why you using the thing that very old now???. The thread still going on, and the page is under revision, which could change anytime, so it not even related here. Also it is under Non-Physical Interaction. This is the proof that you nitpicking a certain part while ignore everything else
He said at worst, not at best. Please don't go twisting other comment like that
Also i'm the one who responsed to Delta
Are you serious, there are ton of scan in the sandbox to supporting each others, so that mean you ignore scans and contexts then
Ideas is abstraction, concept is also an abstraction. Manipulating concept is just boil down to manipulating some abstraction that define something in physical reality, and type of concept is just the scale of it. And Sealas' statement made it clear, as Evil is an abstract component of reality which in order to to remove it, he need to burn down all of current reality and make a new one from scratch. No elaboration???, so you didn't read the sandbox and ignore it then, or you read it, but ignore it on purpose and nitpicking, isolating stuff instead
1. DDM share the same thought as Griffin??. Scan???
2. Maverick is not even come back the second time while everything progress
3. Actually, DDM agreed with OwO
4. Lastly, Griffin only conceded on your point about Sealas, he said he can't defend Info and Time Scroll stuff since he is not knowledge on the game verse, literally he is neutral on Time Scroll's arguments, but you generalised his argument as he conceded with everything
Anyway this is a really bad conduct, you literally twisted staff opinion to push the thread despite the fact that Maverick commented only one while thread progress with more scans and arguments thus make his stance currently in an unknown area. DDM agreed with OwO's arguments about Time Scroll and Tokipedia while not say anything new about Janemba's point made his current stance is unknown toward Evil concept and agree with OwO about Time Scroll. Griffin currently conceded with your point about Sealas but he is neutral toward Time Scroll stuff. You instead generalised all and act like three of them agreed with you with everything, which is not a good action at all
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