Dragon Ball Heroes Special Ki Additions

[Braking]

More specifically, there's the intertwining of the histories of separate universes, the alteration of specific events in the past, and causing things to occur that were deemed impossible by someone with Cosmic Awareness of all time and timelines.

I firmly believe that this could call for a review of a lot of profiles with Causality Manipulation if this is doesn't qualify.

^^^^^^^

“time travel” how can it be time travel if the mf is affecting all the past the present and the future.

 

[Braking]

Mic drop

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ottavio_Merluzzo That's not remotely what I said, I said the tokipedia stuff with the data at best would only scale to Fu as it's his own creation that can do this, so you're just strawmanning my own arguments.

@Dagoth_OwO where exactly is it ever stated to be choice? The time scrolls only have the timeline, which again doesn't prove anything on concepts and information being something needed to be interactable with in order to destroy the time scrolls.

Except that my comparison does hold up here because it's the exact same context here. I destroy a human body that has these, therefore I can manipulate these abilities, destroying a timeline has never once in anyway shape or form allowed anyone to manipulate the things inside of the timeline, cause going off these absurd logic, life manipulation, radiation manipulation, heat and cold manipulation and so many other things inside of the universe is something randomly given to any and all tier 2 in the wiki, which again isn't something we do here, so give actual evidence of these things happening in the process of affecting the scrolls, cause especially destroying the scrolls with no evidence that it lacks a physical form and the main argument comes from the concepts and information blog.

@Vietthai96 where did he say that, and again, where's the proof the normal time scrolls do the same thing?

False equivalency as affecting concepts don't remotely equate to warping the entire space-time continuum on its own, on top of the fact that Chronoa affects the demon world is just more proof on the time scrolls just being affected by changes in the timeline as they literally have an entire timeline inside of it.

Except you haven't proved anything about concepts and information hax being a requirement to affect the time scrolls, my analogy is 100% comparable here because the time scrolls and human body are physical objects, destroying both of them results in whatever they have going away. By that logic every superhuman being ever gets blood bio and bone manipulation for destroying a human body.

@Antvasima the other staff thinks the concepts are fine but disagrees with Information Causality and Fate hax, I'm a part of that group, which btw, they only agreed with concepts being a thing, not that affecting the time scrolls results in warping concepts.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

@Theglassman12 It's simple logic. Since Chronoa and the Time Scrolls objectively can record Time Rifts, the matter of Chronoa not recording Fu's Time Rifts is simply a matter of choice, which she has legitimate reasons for not doing so. Claiming that the Time Scrolls can't record Time Rifts when they're objectively shown and stated to be capable of it, is a blatant lie at this point. I proved that the Time Scrolls can do the exact same thing as the Tokipedia as you requested, so are you finally going to acknowledge that Tokipedia scales to the Time Scrolls or not?.

What the hell are you on about? The human body absolutely doesn't compare here since blood and bones isn't nonphysical data. Why are you bringing up more false comparisons with this "life and cold manipulation for destroying a universe". Once again, you've completely ignored the part where the records are unaffected by the erasure of time. You're still under the presumption that the destruction of the data in the scrolls is a chain reaction of the scrolls getting destroyed, like destroying the universe resulting in the destruction of all life. The Time Scrolls don't work like this as shown with it's copy Tokipedia. You can't destroy their data by destroying the scroll itself, as shown when even time EE didn't do anything to the records. If destroying the scrolls doesn't result in the destruction of its data, then it's not a chain reaction. In that scenario you'd logically need to affect the data directly to destroy it, if destroying the scroll doesn't actually do the job. Why is this so hard to understand.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

More specifically, there's the intertwining of the histories of separate universes, the alteration of specific events in the past, and causing things to occur that were deemed impossible by someone with Cosmic Awareness of all time and timelines.

I firmly believe that this could call for a review of a lot of profiles with Causality Manipulation if this is doesn't qualify.

If making impossible futures/events possible is not causality manip nor fate manip, then yes, I agree. Even the causality manip page lists "making a specific effect impossible to be caused" as causality manip, which is literally the opposite DS does by making impossible effects actually possible. And as for fate manip, just look at the example it uses on its page, and you'll see my point

 

[Antvasima]

@Ottavio_Merluzzo That's not remotely what I said, I said the tokipedia stuff with the data at best would only scale to Fu as it's his own creation that can do this, so you're just strawmanning my own arguments.

@Dagoth_OwO where exactly is it ever stated to be choice? The time scrolls only have the timeline, which again doesn't prove anything on concepts and information being something needed to be interactable with in order to destroy the time scrolls.

Except that my comparison does hold up here because it's the exact same context here. I destroy a human body that has these, therefore I can manipulate these abilities, destroying a timeline has never once in anyway shape or form allowed anyone to manipulate the things inside of the timeline, cause going off these absurd logic, life manipulation, radiation manipulation, heat and cold manipulation and so many other things inside of the universe is something randomly given to any and all tier 2 in the wiki, which again isn't something we do here, so give actual evidence of these things happening in the process of affecting the scrolls, cause especially destroying the scrolls with no evidence that it lacks a physical form and the main argument comes from the concepts and information blog.

@Vietthai96 where did he say that, and again, where's the proof the normal time scrolls do the same thing?

False equivalency as affecting concepts don't remotely equate to warping the entire space-time continuum on its own, on top of the fact that Chronoa affects the demon world is just more proof on the time scrolls just being affected by changes in the timeline as they literally have an entire timeline inside of it.

Except you haven't proved anything about concepts and information hax being a requirement to affect the time scrolls, my analogy is 100% comparable here because the time scrolls and human body are physical objects, destroying both of them results in whatever they have going away. By that logic every superhuman being ever gets blood bio and bone manipulation for destroying a human body.

@Antvasima the other staff thinks the concepts are fine but disagrees with Information Causality and Fate hax, I'm a part of that group, which btw, they only agreed with concepts being a thing, not that affecting the time scrolls results in warping concepts.

I suppose that this seems to make sense, and that what our staff members have accepted should be applied, and that what they have rejected should not.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

I suppose that this seems to make sense, and that what our staff members have accepted should be applied, and that what they have rejected should not.

For the record, Glassman literally ignored every piece of evidence that undeniable proved that Tokipedia is a copy of a Time Scroll, even the ones he dared me to present. Quite dissapointing to see that a staff member can get scotch free from such a level of ignorance, but atleast this thread will serve as further evidence for his behavior.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima the other staff thinks the concepts are fine but disagrees with Information Causality and Fate hax, I'm a part of that group, which btw, they only agreed with concepts being a thing, not that affecting the time scrolls results in warping concepts.

I suppose that this seems to make sense, and that what our staff members have accepted should be applied, and that what they have rejected should not.

@LordGriffin1000 @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus

Can you confirm that there have been no misunderstandings here please?

For the record, Glassman literally ignored every piece of evidence that undeniable proved that Tokipedia is a copy of a Time Scroll, even the ones he dared me to present. Quite dissapointing to see that a staff member can get scotch free from such a level of ignorance, but atleast this thread will serve as further evidence for his behavior.

Well, I have not been able to keep track here, so I mostly have to go by what our other staff members think.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Well, I have not been able to keep track here, so I mostly have to go by what our other staff members think.

Understandable. I'm just pointing out that ignoring clear-cut evidence is very frowned upon, which has been the case for the last 2 pages, as the evidence for Tokipedia scaling to the Time Scrolls has been purposefully ignored

 

[Antvasima]

Well, our staff members are supposed to try to be as unbiased as possible when evaluating evidence, but again, I haven't kept track here well at all.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Well, our staff members are supposed to try to be as unbiased as possible when evaluating evidence, but again, I haven't kept track here well at all.

Well it doesn't seem to be the case for a certain member, considering how I was asked to present evidence for the Time Scrolls doing the exact same thing as the Tokipedia, which I did, and it got ignored.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah

Is that a confirmation that Glassman did not misunderstand your viewpoint here?

 

[Quantu]

For the record, I think Vietthai and co are making more sense regarding Causality/Fate manipulation

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, he did not misunderstand me by the looks of it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

I will wait a while for the other staff members here as well then.

 

[Vietthai96]

where's the proof the normal time scrolls do the same thing?

Again, Fu directly stated he replicated the normal scroll, it was called Book of the Beginning and End, which is the same as Time Scroll's name, they both are the same





Lastly they function exactly the same as both of them can record:
Time Scroll:




Tokipedia:



https://imgur.com/shnfIix

False equivalency as affecting concepts don't remotely equate to warping the entire space-time continuum on its own, on top of the fact that Chronoa affects the demon world is just more proof on the time scrolls just being affected by changes in the timeline as they literally have an entire timeline inside of it.

What?????, She directly erased what inside Time Scroll, are you really doing this now, because only her can do so, Zeno erased Future Trunks Zamasu done nothing to the scroll.

Except you haven't proved anything about concepts and information hax being a requirement to affect the time scrolls, my analogy is 100% comparable here because the time scrolls and human body are physical objects, destroying both of them results in whatever they have going away. By that logic every superhuman being ever gets blood bio and bone manipulation for destroying a human body.

Again your analogy is not, this is we talking about non-physical data, information, which if the power can't affect and erase them, they will still continue to exist and all of reality will be fine. By your logic, then data and information will become physical which go against logic. Lastly i say so many time now, only Time Power can affect the Scroll, or that while villain like Mechikabura go after Time Power, and Time Scroll is created from Time Power, you ignored too many contexts here and trying to force your personal standard upon this thread, you trying to say concepts and information hax being a requirement despite the fact that, there is so many conceptual manipulation out there didn't even mentioned about concept once. Again i will say that, the requirement to affect Time Scroll is Time Power, and that Power created Time Scroll along with everything in reality, the same power allow Mechikabura to suck everything,

 

[Antvasima]

Can the most knowledgeable Dragon Ball supporters here place all of the relevant evidence into a single post please, so Medeus, Griffin, Maverick, and Glassman can take a look at it in a more easily understood manner?

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Can the most knowledgeable Dragon Ball supporters here place all of the relevant evidence into a single post please, so Medeus, Griffin, Maverick, and Glassman can take a look at it in a more easily understood manner?

Tokipedia and the Time Scrolls are the same. Tokipedia is a Time Scroll created by Fu for the sole purpose of recording Time Rifts, since Chronoa has chosen not to record them, due to rifts being separated from their own history. The Tokipedia is visually shown to be a Time Scroll which can record and contain history itself and Fu was explicitly stated to have accurately replicated the Time Scrolls to create the Tokipedia, making it an accurate copy of a Time Scroll. The Time Scrolls have also shown feats of being capable of recording and containing Time Rifts just like the Tokipedia, which debunks the argument that they're not same, as both can record Time Rifts just fine. It's just a matter of whether Chronoa chooses to record Time Rifts or not.

Since the Tokipedia and Time Scrolls have been established to be the same, all the properties of the Tokipedia would scale to the Time Scrolls. The first property is the fact the Tokipedia records literal data/information in it, proving that we're dealing with literal information here. The second property is that this same data/information is completely unaffected by Fu literally erasing and resetting time multiple times over, meaning that not even literally erasing time itself can affect the Scrolls and their records/data/information. Since the records/data/information of the scrolls cannot be destroyed by any normal means as shown with Fu's EE feat not being able to erase the information of the Tokipedia, this would mean that directly affecting the data/records themselves contained in the scrolls is required to destroy it and the timeline they contain/record. The only ones who have had the power to affect the data/information/records of a Time Scroll are Time Power users like Chronoa, Fu who created the Tokipedia and Fused Sealas, who was going to destroy and rewrite reality to exclude evil itself by burning the Time Scrolls after merging and gaining the power of Ahms, his personal AI.

 

[Antvasima]

Tokipedia and the Time Scrolls are the same. Tokipedia is a Time Scroll created by Fu for the sole purpose of recording Time Rifts, since Chronoa has chosen not to record them, due to them being separated from their own history. The Tokipedia is visually shown to be a Time Scroll which can record and contain history itself and Fu was explicitly stated to have accurately replicated the Time Scrolls to create the Tokipedia, making it an accurate copy of a Time Scroll. The Time Scrolls have also shown feats of being capable of recording and containing Time Rifts just like the Tokipedia, which debunks the argument that they're aren't same, as both can record Time Rifts just fine. It's just a matter of whether Chronoa chooses to record Time Rifts or not.

Since the Tokipedia and Time Scrolls have been established to be the same, all the properties of the Tokipedia would scale to the Time Scrolls. The first property is the fact the Tokipedia records literal data/information in it, proving that we're dealing with literal information here. The second property is that this same data/information is completely unaffected by Fu literally erasing and resetting time multiple times over, meaning that not even literally erasing time itself can affect the Scrolls and their records/data/information. Since the records/data/information of the scrolls cannot be destroyed by any normal means as shown with Fu's EE feat not being able to erase the information of the Tokipedia, this would mean that directly affecting the data/records themselves contained in the scrolls is required to destroy it and the timeline they contain. The only ones who have had the power to affect the data/information/records of a Time Scroll are Time Power users like Chronoa, Fu who created the Tokipedia and Fused Sealas, who was going to destroy and rewrite reality to exclude evil itself by burning the Time Scrolls after merging and gaining the power of Ahms, his personal AI.

@DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Maverick_Zero_X @Theglassman12

What do you all think about this?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose this all makes more sense to me then.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dagoth_OwO Where is it simple logic that the scrolls themselves choose what is and isn't recorded? There's nothing indicating that the scrolls are sentient in the first place to even make a choice here. Again, you've dodged my question for the nth time about concepts and information being a requirement to affect the scrolls on top of where the evidence is that the time scrolls lack a physical form to begin with.

Because that's literally what you guys are pushing for in this thread, oh the timelines just happen to mention concepts being a thing in the world, and information also exist because scrolls, therefore destroying the timeline and the time scrolls somehow means I can manipulate concepts and information, by this logic everyone tier 2 and above gets all the abilities I listed above because they affect all of these different aspects in the universe. Where in that entire scan of the time labyrinth being a sealing ability was it ever stated to erase things? She just sealed them, that was it. Do you have any scans on erasing time itself being a thing for time labyrinth?

Quite disappointing that a group of users would try to push for upgrades based on such vague interpretations and claim it's factual without applying the logic to every other verse, I can flip the script on you with that comment, how about you try to tone down the petty jabs at me and actually tackle my points instead of dodging them? Like proof concepts and information is a requirement to affect the scrolls or the scrolls lack a physical form?

@Antvasima There's nothing new in this entire comment that hasn't already been addressed, if they're just going to repeat the same exact arguments we're better off moving along, especially if no staff members are going to comment beyond what we have right now unless you wanna call more of them.

@Vietthai96 Book of the beginning and end, time rift editions, sounds a lot more like this is something exclusive to the tokipedia than the normal time scrolls, otherwise they wouldn't have made that distinction.

I already addressed this, showing images of what happened is not information hax, that's basic astral projection that's been used in virtually any form of fiction ever, we don't give info hax for people making those unless stated otherwise.

by sealing the demon world in a time labyrinth, which last time I checked is outside of time, so it doesn't equate to the time scrolls data being erased, just that they're sent somewhere else.

Again, no proof on information being a tangible thing that exists in the verse beyond recordings which doesn't mean info, just another way of projecting events that already happen (which applies to a lot of verses out there). Where is it stated that only time power can affect the scrolls? Because demons can corrupt scrolls just fine so you're contradicting your own point. Oh yeah, bring up so many other verses that have a lot more context to their conceptual manipulation, making their comparison to dragon ball irrelevant because it's totally a good argument these days when you don't know the full context and just say "they don't mention concepts". And you still have not proven mechikabura affected the scrolls, are you going to remotely address my arguments because you're not even trying at this point.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Because that's literally what you guys are pushing for in this thread, oh the timelines just happen to mention concepts being a thing in the world, and information also exist because scrolls, therefore destroying the timeline and the time scrolls somehow means I can manipulate concepts and information, by this logic everyone tier 2 and above gets all the abilities I listed above because they affect all of these different aspects in the universe. Where in that entire scan of the time labyrinth being a sealing ability was it ever stated to erase things? She just sealed them, that was it. Do you have any scans on erasing time itself being a thing for time labyrinth?

I don't think that's the only argument for conceptual stuff.

Going from the blog, Janempa is a literal evil entity that has been stated to be formless and made up of evil while feeding on it. One of the characters (Sealas) wants to get rid of all evil in the universe by making a new one with no evil. In order for this to happen, he'd need to make sure the concept of evil doesn't exist, no?

 

[Theglassman12]

The argument for concepts is that evil exist, and time exists, both are for some reason scaling it to Janemba and The time bird which isn’t true because Janemba was literally made from the energy stored from evil beings in hell, he’s not a concept, he’s just a collection of energy made from evil beings, especially when there’s like no evidence to suggest he’s an abstract concept. Same applies to the time Bird as it just governs the flow of time and make universes, but nothing implies it to be a concept.

As for Sealas he literally just wants to destroy the time scrolls, these scrolls are just timelines in the form of these objects, and destroying them would mean the timeline is gone, nothing about that is remotely implied that concepts and information are required to affect the scrolls, that and his AI Ahms was literally made for him to take on the time patrol since he just collects data on the fighters as opposed to giving him the ability to destroy time scrolls.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Where is it simple logic that the scrolls themselves choose what is and isn't recorded? There's nothing indicating that the scrolls are sentient in the first place to even make a choice here. Again, you've dodged my question for the nth time about concepts and information being a requirement to affect the scrolls on top of where the evidence is that the time scrolls lack a physical form to begin with.

When did I ever claim that Scrolls themselves are sentient lol. Chronoa uses the Scrolls to record history and she chooses what to record and what not to record. I have shown feats that Chronoa and the Time Scrolls can record Time Rifts, if she so chooses. These silly excuses of yours aren't debunking the feats of the Time Scrolls being able to record Time Rifts. Address the feats of Time Scrolls being able to record Time Rifts or concede. And I have already proven via the Tokipedia that normally erasing/destroying the scrolls does nothing to its records/data. If affecting the container doesn't do anything do the recorded data, what do you think needs to be done to actually destroy the data itself? I'll tell you, you'd need to affect the information directly. Simple logic.

Because that's literally what you guys are pushing for in this thread, oh the timelines just happen to mention concepts being a thing in the world, and information also exist because scrolls, therefore destroying the timeline and the time scrolls somehow means I can manipulate concepts and information, by this logic everyone tier 2 and above gets all the abilities I listed above because they affect all of these different aspects in the universe. Where in that entire scan of the time labyrinth being a sealing ability was it ever stated to erase things? She just sealed them, that was it. Do you have any scans on erasing time itself being a thing for time labyrinth?

Of course I'm not. I've already proven via the Tokipedia that erasing a Time Scroll doesn't destroy its information. You're still treating the information destruction as a chain reaction when it's objectively shown to not be the case. If destroying a Time Scroll regularly doesn't affect its records, then it's not a chain reaction. You need to affect the records themselves to destroy them, since destroying a scroll normally doesn't destroy the records. As for the Time Labyrinth, it directly removed the records of the Scrolls, something which even Zeno himself failed to do when he erased the Future Trunks timeline. Time Scrolls can record erased timelines, while Chronoa literally removed the Demon Realm from these records. She's directly affecting the records here.

Quite disappointing that a group of users would try to push for upgrades based on such vague interpretations and claim it's factual without applying the logic to every other verse, I can flip the script on you with that comment, how about you try to tone down the petty jabs at me and actually tackle my points instead of dodging them? Like proof concepts and information is a requirement to affect the scrolls or the scrolls lack a physical form?

I'll stop the "petty jabs" when you stop your petty ignorance. The fact that you're still claiming that Tokipedia doesn't scale to the Time Scrolls, despite even daring me to show proof of the Time Scrolls doing the exact same thing as the Tokipedia, which I did, proves your utter ignorance and denial. The Time Scrolls have feats of recording Time Scrolls and all you can come up with is petty excuses to ignore it like "Time Scrolls aren't sentient" which I never even remotely implied. The fact that you have the audacity to claim that we're dodging points when you can't even address the simple feats that proves the Scrolls are capable of doing the exact same thing as Tokipedia is textbook hypocrisy. Address the feats or concede. The scrolls lacking a physical form is not a requirement, when directly affecting the actual records/info inside those scrolls is what actually matters here. And as I have proven with the Tokipedia countless times, time erasure doesn't affect the records.

because Janemba was literally made from the energy stored from evil beings in hell, he’s not a concept, he’s just a collection of energy made from evil beings, especially when there’s like no evidence to suggest he’s an abstract concept.

Once again you continue to ignore everything. Janemba was born from the very "evil in peoples hearts" collected in the Soul Cleansing Machine, and he was described multiple times to be form of evil/wicked thoughts and ideas. You're only proving my accusations correct. I seriously hope you're not actually trying to claim that the literal evil in a person's heart is only energy lmao. Evil people manifest/have a type of evil energy, thus Janemba being made from literal evil itself makes him a being of pure evil energy. Basic DB logic. And since I'm in a generous mood, let me give you another direct statement from Chronoa who confirmed that Janemba was literally made from pure evil itself collected by the Soul Cleansing Machine. Go ahead, ignore that too won't ya.

As for Sealas he literally just wants to destroy the time scrolls, these scrolls are just timelines in the form of these objects, and destroying them would mean the timeline is gone, nothing about that is remotely implied that concepts and information are required to affect the scrolls, that and his AI Ahms was literally made for him to take on the time patrol since he just collects data on the fighters as opposed to giving him the ability to destroy time scrolls.

Congratulations, you just proved your ignorance again. The sole reason why Sealas wants to burn the scrolls and rewrite reality is to remove evil itself and to make a reality excluded from evil itself. Not to mention the fact that if Sealas wanted to simply just destroy all existence and make a new one, he could have either just raw AP'ed it or just use his Time Rifts to swallow up everything, and then just create a new timeline like he did previously. But let me guess, Sealas, the being whose intelligence rivals that of Dr. Gero and others, and is literally stated to be a master martial artist and a top-class engineer and who could create timelines which were exact copies of the original is just super dumb right? How many plotholes can you conjure up to justify your crappy interpretation and downplay of Sealas' intelligence lol? Also, nice job ignoring the Tokipedia being unaffected by time EE again, which utterly shatters your chain reaction downplay.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Going from the blog, Janempa is a literal evil entity that has been stated to be formless and made up of evil while feeding on it. One of the characters (Sealas) wants to get rid of all evil in the universe by making a new one with no evil. In order for this to happen, he'd need to make sure the concept of evil doesn't exist, no?

Exactly. In order to destroy evil itself and create a new reality where evil itself no longer exists, Sealas concluded that he needed to destroy the Time Scrolls and their records. Keep in mind that Sealas has plenty of other ways to destroy and re-create reality like with his raw AP and his Time Rifts, even having the capability to create entire new timelines which are a perfect copy of the real one, and yet, to succeed in his plans to remove evil itself and create a new reality excluded from evil, he needed to specifically destroy the scrolls. Again, keep in mind that Sealas' intelligence rivals that of Dr. Gero and other scientist, as he was stated to be a top-ranked engineer, even being able to create AI's from scratch and perfect copies of timelines "down the very blade of grass", even being the first Time Patroller and having experience with history, so he clearly knows what he's doing. To destroy the concept of evil itself and have his new reality excluded from it, he needs to burn the scrolls, since he can't simply just nuke everything and create a new timeline (which he is infact capable of doing), in order to erase evil itself.

Additionally, we have found another statement of Janemba being made from literal pure evil itself, which further solidifies the arguments for CM. Janemba is made from the pure evil in a persons heart, and evil thoughts and ideas, being an existence of pure darkness, evil and evil energy that feeds on evil

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dagoth_OwO Except that the information you provide contradicts that when the tokipedia is literally a time rift version of a time scroll as stated by one of the characters so that already disproves they're the exact same thing.

Where exactly did you prove that it's not a chain reaction thing? You haven't even given any scans that proves that concepts and information is a requirement to affect the scrolls or the scrolls lacking a physical form throughout this entire thread. Also Zeno didn't really erase the timeline, otherwise they wouldn't have time traveled back in time to get the other Zeno.

Where did you remotely show time scrolls recording time scrolls? Where in this entire thread did you remotely prove this? Can you for once try to prove anything here instead of just saying shit with no scans whatsoever? You guys literally gave everyone who can interact/destroy time scroll non physical interaction and gave it the exact same reasoning as concepts and information, where is the proof that the scrolls lack a physical form to qualify for NPI because you're not giving me anything. For someone who claims I don't address feats you sure do a shit job of providing evidence in this entire thread. How about you give me evidence instead of ignoring my points?

That is not in anyway shape or form abstract existence, especially when it's literally stated to just be a demon made from evil gas/vapor or him just being a demonic spirit with no evidence to suggest he's reliant on the concept itself to life, something that's the bare minimum requirement to qualify for abstract existence in the first place. Chronoa's statement means absolutely nothing here when Janemba has nothing to make him an abstract being.

And that proves concept hax how? Destroying all of evil is such a vague term that it doesn't automatically mean the concept of evil, just that he wants to kill the wicked people in the multiverse. You do realize the fact that there lacks any explanation for him not remotely attempting to destroy the time scrolls right away despite apparently having the capabilities to do so is still a plot hole right? I'm not conjuring up anything this is basic storytelling 101, if you can't remotely understand this then it seems you're the ignorant one here. Also good job not tackling my point on Ahms being made to combat the time patrol and not getting specific abilities to destroy the time scrolls, a great sign of progress when you can't even bother to address my arguments.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

The fact that 3-A Zeno Is being argued as a counterpoint just shows the desperation tbh.

Anyone who has a little bit of knowledge on Dragon Ball and the Time Machine knows how wrong that argument is.

Not only that, 3-A Zeno has been repeatedly debunked for 5 years here on the wiki, since the Goku Black arc ended.

Again,I'm disappointed.

 

[Delta333]

In order to destroy evil itself and create a new reality where evil itself no longer exists, Sealas concluded that he needed to destroy the Time Scrolls and their records.

This part raises for me a question, do we really grant someone conceptual hax just because it can indirectly destroy a concept? I mean, if I understand correctly about this whole discussion, the character in question can't destroy the concept of evil itself without affecting the Time Scrolls and records?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ottavio_Merluzzo Did I remotely say Zeno is 3-A at this entire thread? Because now you're just strawmanning me. I never once said he caps at 3-A.

 

[Hasty12345]

@Ottavio_Merluzzo Did I remotely say Zeno is 3-A at this entire thread? Because now you're just strawmanning me. I never once said he caps at 3-A.

he doesn't cap at 3-A, he's just really high above baseline

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

@Ottavio_Merluzzo Did I remotely say Zeno is 3-A at this entire thread? Because now you're just strawmanning me. I never once said he caps at 3-A.

You just nitpicked a part of my comment. Congrats. You're not any better than me by your logic.

The part about the timeline is still wrong. Stop ignoring part of the comments.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

And that proves concept hax how? Destroying all of evil is such a vague term that it doesn't automatically mean the concept of evil, just that he wants to kill the wicked people in the multiverse. You do realize the fact that there lacks any explanation for him not remotely attempting to destroy the time scrolls right away despite apparently having the capabilities to do so is still a plot hole right? I'm not conjuring up anything this is basic storytelling 101, if you can't remotely understand this then it seems you're the ignorant one here. Also good job not tackling my point on Ahms being made to combat the time patrol and not getting specific abilities to destroy the time scrolls, a great sign of progress when you can't even bother to address my arguments.

But if he only was aiming to destroy all evil beings then he'd never succeed because if he a new universe is made, an evil person is bound to show up unless the new reality he rewrites lacks the concept of evil. The statments says he wants to reshape reality to exclude/eradicate all evil which won't be possible if the concept of evil still exists because then the inhabitants will not know what evil is as it doesn't exist. At least that's how I see it. Though I see the othet points you are making

 

[Vietthai96]

But if he only was aiming to destroy all evil beings then he'd never succeed because if he a new universe is made, an evil person is bound to show up unless the new reality he rewrites lacks the concept of evil. The statments says he wants to reshape reality to exclude/eradicate all evil which won't be possible if the concept of evil still exists because then the inhabitants will not know what evil is as it doesn't exist. At least that's how I see it

Yes, exactly like this. If he just want to simply eradicating evil guys, he no need to go to such length, he himself even created a timeline, which was stated by Chronoa to be an accurate reality down to the last blade of grass, Evil just exist and come back, it was further supported by Janemba himself, as in the event of Fusion Reborn movie he die, however we talk about game not toei, as peoples think he gone but no he come back which further support the fact that Evil being fundamental component, abstract essence of reality (Evil also being capitalized everything it mention which also a minor supporting evidence), which allow Janemba to come back, since he was stated to be the very idea of Evil,

The thing is, if we just isolating contexts and scans from each others it will make no sense and sure thing is invalid. It only make sense if you put them together and supporting each others, that why i made sandbox/blog to explain in detail.

Anyway i need to sleep soon, midnight sleep

 

[Antvasima]

Because that's literally what you guys are pushing for in this thread, oh the timelines just happen to mention concepts being a thing in the world, and information also exist because scrolls, therefore destroying the timeline and the time scrolls somehow means I can manipulate concepts and information, by this logic everyone tier 2 and above gets all the abilities I listed above because they affect all of these different aspects in the universe. Where in that entire scan of the time labyrinth being a sealing ability was it ever stated to erase things? She just sealed them, that was it. Do you have any scans on erasing time itself being a thing for time labyrinth?

Quite disappointing that a group of users would try to push for upgrades based on such vague interpretations and claim it's factual without applying the logic to every other verse, I can flip the script on you with that comment, how about you try to tone down the petty jabs at me and actually tackle my points instead of dodging them? Like proof concepts and information is a requirement to affect the scrolls or the scrolls lack a physical form?

I think that Glassman seems to make good sense above. My apologies to the Dragon Ball fans here, but you cannot expect to get absolutely everything that you suggest accepted.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I think that Glassman seems to make good sense above. My apologies to the Dragon Ball fans here, but you cannot expect to get absolutely everything that you suggest accepted.

It's true that Glassman does make some good points but I think the otherside does regarding Sealas as well and think it warrents a possibly in my opinion if we half to come to a compromise. I'll wait for Glassman's response.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ottavio_Merluzzo You didn't even address my comments beyond strawmanning so your argument doesn't have any weight here.

@LordGriffin1000 except that killing all the evil beings in the multiverse can mean many things, literally erasing concepts in of itself is not the only way that's feasible, especially when not only is the proof of evil being a concept is Janemba who isn't a concept, but a demon who just has evil energy, but the only way he would do that is destroy the time scrolls which have timelines inside of them, assuming this grants concept and info hax is also assuming that in order to destroy the time scrolls in the first place, concepts and information is a necessity to destroy to get rid of the scrolls, when at no point in the story is it ever suggested to be like that at all. We'd need actual evidence that they're capable of affecting literal concepts as opposed to just nuking the reality that just happen to have a concept inside of it, otherwise literally every single tier 2 and above with Low 2-C range and higher would get these abilities and then some for nuking a timeline. At the very best this is just a chain reaction thing where nuking the timeline just so happens to get rid of these things too, which going back to my human body example, me destroying a human body would somehow give me blood bone and biological manipulation because that's technically speaking inside of a human, just like how a timeline just so happens to have time or a concept or information, and it doesn't help the time scrolls are literal physical objects that any normal person can just interact with.

Also the whole point with Sealas is completely ignoring how Ahms is literally stated and shown to just record data against the opponents Sealas runs into, not about the time scrolls, so there still lacks any evidence that concepts and info are required to affect the scrolls, just that the characters (Sealas in this case) needs more power to defeat the time patrol so no one can stand in his way.

 

[Delta333]

We'd need actual evidence that they're capable of affecting literal concepts as opposed to just nuking the reality that just happen to have a concept inside of it

Pretty much this tbh, if they do actually have conceptual hax then why the destruction of Time Scroll and the records is necessity for destroying a concept? It implies that they can't directly destroy the concept by themselves at all, which is something that anyone with conceptual hax must be able to do.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@LordGriffin1000 except that killing all the evil beings in the multiverse can mean many things, literally erasing concepts in of itself is not the only way that's feasible, especially when not only is the proof of evil being a concept is Janemba who isn't a concept, but a demon who just has evil energy, but the only way he would do that is destroy the time scrolls which have timelines inside of them, assuming this grants concept and info hax is also assuming that in order to destroy the time scrolls in the first place, concepts and information is a necessity to destroy to get rid of the scrolls, when at no point in the story is it ever suggested to be like that at all. We'd need actual evidence that they're capable of affecting literal concepts as opposed to just nuking the reality that just happen to have a concept inside of it, otherwise literally every single tier 2 and above with Low 2-C range and higher would get these abilities and then some for nuking a timeline. At the very best this is just a chain reaction thing where nuking the timeline just so happens to get rid of these things too, which going back to my human body example, me destroying a human body would somehow give me blood bone and biological manipulation because that's technically speaking inside of a human, just like how a timeline just so happens to have time or a concept or information, and it doesn't help the time scrolls are literal physical objects that any normal person can just interact with.

I somewhat follow what your saying but don't agree with killing all evil beings can mean many things, that is faulty. He has a goal and that's to eradicate all evil and make a world where there is none by reshaping reality. This isn't something that can mean many things, as the only way to do this is by eradicating all evil entities but by law, unless the new inhabitants don't have the concept of evil, another villain/bad guy will always show up, it's just that simple in my honest opinion.

However, as I've pointed out before. I have no knowledge on Xenoverse/Heroes and I won't sit here and state I know the in's and out's of conceptual manipulation. If it's not enough then I'll just drop concide, as I've got other things to do (Currently working on fixing a verse so it won't be deleted). The Time Scroll stuff is beyond me so I can't defend that.