Dragon Ball Heroes Special Ki Additions

[Theglassman12]

@Antvasima can you call other staff members in this thread?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

As I said before, I'm not really familiar with DBX/DBH but I'm going to say Conceptual Manipulation seems fine (For Janempa at least). The statements for Janempa seem to correlate to him being evil abstraction, andthem refering to him as such so the concept of evil should be a thing. So if they want to get rid of evil, they'd need to be capable of removing the concept of evil... at least that's how I see it. but I agree with Theglassman12 on the information hax subject.

 

[luis3333]

As I said before, I'm not really familiar with DBX/DBH but I'm going to say Conceptual Manipulation seems fine (For Janempa at least). The statements for Janempa seem to correlate to him being evil abstraction, andthem refering to him as such so the concept of evil should be a thing. So if they want to get rid of evil, they'd need to be capable of removing the concept of evil... at least that's how I see it. but I agree with Theglassman12 on the information hax subject.

Thanks for your opinion

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

On second thought, I do agree with Griffin regarding the conceptual manipulation part with Janemba parts being good, but agree with Glass on Information Manipulation.

Also, on second thought, I actually don't think the proposals for Causality Manipulation hold up. It looks like it's just space-time distortion that effects the entire multiverse and distorts all time and space. Doesn't look like actively controlling the laws of cause and effect.

 

[Vietthai96]

Also, on second thought, I actually don't think the proposals for Causality Manipulation hold up. It looks like it's just space-time distortion that effects the entire multiverse and distorts all time and space. Doesn't look like actively controlling the laws of cause and effect.

Hmmm, the things about it being Causality is, space-time is also history, timeline in the verse, they are interchangeable, synonymous with each others. History itself is cause and effect, the past is the cause and the future is the effect, Dark Ki distort the history, changed the cause, created a division, resulted in different effect, thus it is Causality Manipulation, because Causality hax is either you manipulating the cause which result in different effect or undo the effect, it doesn't need to have cause and effect to be stated, or if we goes that route, we can delete many Causality hax on the wiki

About Info, i will elaborate later

 

[Theglassman12]

That’s not how causality works here. Affecting space time does not in anyway shape or form grant you causality hax, you need explicit statements of warping causality for that to be accepted onto the pages.

 

[Vietthai96]

That’s not how causality works here. Affecting space time does not in anyway shape or form grant you causality hax, you need explicit statements of warping causality for that to be accepted onto the pages.

Then remove every causality hax that not even mention causality in their description. This kind of argument is like someone destroy a planet on screen but got no planetary level because no word mention said person can destroy planet

 

[luis3333]

That’s not how causality works here. Affecting space time does not in anyway shape or form grant you causality hax, you need explicit statements of warping causality for that to be accepted onto the pages.

that doesn't make sense several verses mentions chance but it still has profile not at all counterargument

 

[Roun12]

That’s not how causality works here. Affecting space time does not in anyway shape or form grant you causality hax, you need explicit statements of warping causality for that to be accepted onto the pages.

I beg to differ. Causality manipulation seems to be given out pretty consistently for changing the past/history. I want to avoid doing so, but I could name quite a few profiles that do, even recent ones.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Vietthai96 false equivalency, a statement on someone destroying a planet and warping causality are two completely different things, if those pages do not remotely imply causality itself is being warped and it has the exact same reasoning as DBH then they're wrong too, simple as that, so stay on topic here.

@luis3333 I don't understand what you're trying to argue here, can you make it clearer?

@Roun12 changing history is very vague on so many levels and it can mean so many things, we don't automatically assume causality hax for Back to the Future characters cause they change history.

 

[Greatsage13th]

That’s not how causality works here. Affecting space time does not in anyway shape or form grant you causality hax, you need explicit statements of warping causality for that to be accepted onto the pages.

Meh GER may disagree.

 

[Ss3micah]

That’s not how causality works here. Affecting space time does not in anyway shape or form grant you causality hax, you need explicit statements of warping causality for that to be accepted onto the pages.

Super Sonic is one of many that completely Disagrees
Causality Manipulation (At his strongest, Sonic could harm Solaris through all points in its time and damage it)

 

[Vietthai96]

false equivalency, a statement on someone destroying a planet and warping causality are two completely different things, if those pages do not remotely imply causality itself is being warped and it has the exact same reasoning as DBH then they're wrong too, simple as that, so stay on topic here.

Not false because what you did is literally that kind of arguments, since you trying to force your personal standard on this thread with the logic that the verse must mention Causality to have causality hax, not entirely different from the argument: the verse must mention Destroying a Planet to get Planetary level.

And i'm still staying on topic

changing history is very vague on so many levels and it can mean so many things, we don't automatically assume causality hax for Back to the Future characters cause they change history.

While i do agree that just changing history alone without context is vague, however the scan is very clear, space-time is distort leading to warriors that originally couldn't have existed appear with further context backed-up by the verse, space-time is also history, timeline, which mean space-time division/distortion also mean history distortion, and Supreme Kai of Time can see all the past, present and future said so. No offend we literally don't assume anything, since all the context and feat point toward that notion, if anything you are the one who assume things

 

[Ss3micah]

That’s not how causality works here. Affecting space time does not in anyway shape or form grant you causality hax, you need explicit statements of warping causality for that to be accepted onto the pages.

Shin Megami Tensei also completely disagrees

• Causality Manipulation: As shown with Takuto Maruki, who can change the course of history such that certain events happened, never happened, or happened differently[8], in order to suit the cognition he wishes to Actualize; such as making it so that Wakaba Isshiki had never been killed by Goro Akechi. Nyarlathotep, after causing the writings of "In Lak'ech" to become real, also overwrote past events such that Adolf Hitler had never died and instead escaped to the South Pole, giving rise to a previously fictional group of Nazi sympathizers (known as the Last Battalion) that had spent years building up their forces for a final bid at world domination.

I could pull up more examples but I not gonna because its a waste on time
Point is based on what I have seen on profiles AND discussed with other members STAFF
You dont need EXPLICIT statements of warping Causality to get Causality Manipulation (although it is nice to have as supporting evidence)
What can also be used are feats/showings of freely manipulating, altering and changing history and/or events in time

If what you said was the standard we followed then 80% of characters on this Wiki right now would lose Causality Manipulation because its just showings without mentioning causality explicitly

 

[luis3333]

demigra by itself has chance manipulation feat

 

[Vietthai96]

demigra by itself has chance manipulation feat

Uh oh, bro this scan is in my argument, no need to bring this up

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Imagine still believing that the Tokipedia isn't a copy of a Time Scroll due to twisting and bastardizing a single statement (which doesn't even debunk our arguments lol) to ignore basic plot elements of the games, while completely ignoring every other scan which show and tell that not only is the Tokipedia an accurate replica of a Time Scroll, but also that the Time Scrolls can actually record Time Rifts like the SKOT Demigra timeline, just like the Tokipedia can. How can the Time Scrolls react to a change in history in this Time Rift timeline if they literally don't record that specific history. Actual comedy.

 

[Vietthai96]

Imagine still believing that the Tokipedia isn't a copy of a Time Scroll due to twisting and bastardizing a single statement (which doesn't even debunk our arguments lol) to ignore basic plot elements of the games, while completely ignoring every other scan which show and state that not only is the Tokipedia a Time Scroll copy, but also that the Time Scrolls can actually record Time Rifts like the SKOT Demigra timeline, just like the Tokipedia can. How can the Time Scrolls react to a change in history in this Time Rift timeline if they literally don't record that specific history. Actual comedy.

Even then, for the sake of arguments if we ignore Supreme Kai of Time Demigra scan, Chronoa and Fu statement still valid in context because if Time Scroll don't record stuff, why they said the line Time Scroll won't record stuff, it doesn't make any sense context-wise, because if the scroll don't record they don't need to said that line, the full line is: Anything that happens in the time rifts won't affect true timeline, meaning it won't be recorded in the book, which in context stated very clear that it is because of a specific condition as Chronoa also confirmed it being a specific condition, the scroll don't record said Time Rift that Fu said about. If scroll don't record stuffs, they doesn't need to say that line. Also even Chronoa when first know about Time Rift, she immediately panic, which mean Time Scroll can record stuff as she nearly scare that Time Scroll will record the Time Rift

And even then it is only for the sake of arguments i only talking about the context of Fu's statement. In reality, there is multiple scan stated and show that Time Scroll and Tokipedia being the same thing:

• Fu stated he trying to replicate the Scroll
• They both look the same
• There is also SKOT Demigra timeline's feat which OwO already posted
• Also to back up OwO's and my arguments, Time Scroll literally reacted and recorded stuff when normal history distort

but I agree with Theglassman12 on the information hax subject.

but agree with Glass on Information Manipulation.

Now lastly why it is Information Manipulation (Type 2), i already explained it in the sandbox but well i think i need to explain it here again:

• We already talked about record and many scan about it
• Record is synonymous with Information
• Fu stated they are also Data. Data is also Information which backed up the above point about Record
• Information Manipulation type 2 is, information that can shape reality which again directly stated in the verse, a piece of time scroll called Time Fragment capable of creating entire timeline/histories, and we know the scroll contain record/data/information, time fragment is just fragment of these record/data/information, and it can create entire timelines/histories, which is again text book definition of Info hax type 2 which from the information manipulation page itself: Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Greatsage13th GER's not even comparable to the space time manipulation here since he's not warping entire timelines.

@Ss3micah Yeah your link doesn't work here, and at best that just sounds like time travel to attack Solaris, and SMT is not comparable here as there's no mentions of warping the entire space time continuum/destroying the multiverse somehow giving the characters causality hax with no elaboration on that whatsoever like with DBH.

@Vietthai96 it is completely false equivalence as characters can get planetary with a wide variety of calcs that can put it on that level, causality isn't something you can mathematically prove like destructive capabilities.

Yes you are assuming things, especially when you grant characters causality and fate hax for destroying a multiverse with no explicit information on these two being warped, or just transforming affecting a timeline granting causality and fate hax when we have no showings that these two are remotely being affected.

Saying he wants Data doesn't mean much when that line is applicable to any normal person watching and analyzing anything. I can get data recorded on a computer for anything, doesn't mean I have information hax.

 

[Vietthai96]

GER's not even comparable to the space time manipulation here since he's not warping entire timelines.

No one said GER about manipulating space-time, but the fact that it got Causality Manipulation despite it doesn't have any Causality word stated

Yeah your link doesn't work here, and at best that just sounds like time travel to attack Solaris, and SMT is not comparable here as there's no mentions of warping the entire space time continuum/destroying the multiverse somehow giving the characters causality hax with no elaboration on that whatsoever like with DBH.

Like above, no one said SMT about manipulating space-time, it is about Causality hax, and they also did have any Causality word mentioned according to your standard. Stop arguing around

it is completely false equivalence as characters can get planetary with a wide variety of calcs that can put it on that level, causality isn't something you can mathematically prove like destructive capabilities.

It is not about mathematical or hax, it is about the nature of your argument, as you literally stated that it need to have Causality word mentioned to get the ability despite the fact that the feat show it without mentioning the word. Thus equivalent to a character destroy a planet don't get the rating because no word mention said character can destroy the planet

Yes you are assuming things, especially when you grant characters causality and fate hax for destroying a multiverse with no explicit information on these two being warped, or just transforming affecting a timeline granting causality and fate hax when we have no showings that these two are remotely being affected.

The funny thing is:
1. You using two completely different characters that have almost nothing to do with the matters and still in the process of being revise (Xeno Goku got locked for the being due to vandalism), and all of them still stay in the same state as this thread still going on. Also for the record, Mechikabura having Dark Factor and Time Power so he get that anyway, and Black Hole was stated to be created by two powers, you ignored scan
2. Destroying multiverse????. Did i ever mentioning about destroying multiverse as proof for Causality hax??, Literally this part is you made up, not mine, and you have audacity to call other liar
3. Again i said this multiple time and you keep ignoring scans and contexts: Time = Space-time = Timeline = History, distort space-time mean distort history, and Dark Shenron scan is very clear, you again keep ignoring scan and context

Saying he wants Data doesn't mean much when that line is applicable to any normal person watching and analyzing anything. I can get data recorded on a computer for anything, doesn't mean I have information hax.

1. Again you ignored arguments, isolated scan and context, the full context is in my comment, with scan backed-up and combine with each other to give the full picture. That scan is supporting the fact that there is Data he can extract and it related to Time Scroll and Tokipedia, and you know what, he absorbed those thing along with the timeline
2. Computer???. What computer???. Also you still get information hax via equipment if those data and information can shape and define a lower reality anyway, and please don't bring human example here, because we don't rate real world tier or we get either tier 0 due to transcended the fiction we created or those fiction got 11-C for being not real
3. At this point you clearly ignore all scan and context, arguing just for the sake of arguing

Anyway it is midnight, time to sleep

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the current staff conclusions here?

If you want me to call for more staff members, Theglassman12, are there any summary posts for all of the arguments for each side here available for me to quote for them, so they can much more easily understand what is going on here?

 

[Vietthai96]

So what are the current staff conclu
Sions here?

If you want me to call for more staff members, Theglassman12, are there any sjmmary posts for all of the arguments for each side here available for me to quote for them, so they can much more easily understand what is going on here?

DarkDragonMedeus and LordGriffin both agreed with Conceptual Manipulation, however they agreed Glassman's point about Information

LordGriffin agreed with Causality & Fate hax, DarkDragonMedeus have problem with Causality hax

We still arguing about Information hax and Causality hax

 

[AguilaR202]

From what I gather:

Dark shenron appearance caused alterations with his power

thanks to said alterations warriors who are stated to not exist in normal history by chronoa ( who has knowledge of the entire multiverses history) start to pop up

SSJ4 Bardock (who prior to that point, had no official appearances in any of DB media that forms part of SDBH continuity, further reinforcing the point that he would not exist if not for shenrons influence) is one of the warriors that appear as direct result of shenrons influence.

Based on that, what power and ability would better describe what shenron is doing here?

 

[Antvasima]

DarkDragonMedeus and LordGriffin both agreed with Conceptual Manipulation, however they agreed Glassman's point about Information

LordGriffin agreed with Causality & Fate hax, DarkDragonMedeus have problem with Causality hax

We still arguing about Information hax and Causality hax

Okay. Thank you for the information. Do you need any further staff input regarding the final disagreements, or are you able to handle this on you own, @DarkDragonMedeus , @LordGriffin1000 , and @Theglassman12 ?

 

[Vietthai96]

Anyway need to sleep because midnight in my country now, but to again to counter Glassman point as he say that Time Scroll don't records anything


This scan explicitly show how Time Scroll records timeline and event
Now i need to sleep

 

[Theglassman12]

@Vietthai96 that wasn't even the argument I was making, I was talking about affecting the space time continuum granting causality hax, giorno is not in anyway shape or form comparable here as he's not getting causality hax for warping the space time continuum, which is the premise of your argument right now. Get better examples instead of a character who has nothing to do with warping the entire space time continuum.

How about you pay attention to what I'm saying instead of taking me out of context for the nth time here? Warping space time does not grant you causality hax, you need explicit statements that they're warping causality itself and fate itself with warping space time for those abilities to be accepted on the page, because as of now that's just space time hax, nothing more nothing less.

Yes it is because strength and hax are not in anyway comparable to each other when it comes to achieving one or the other, so you're misrepresenting my argument right now as AP has nothing to do with getting causality hax.

No I'm not bringing up irrelevant stuff, I'm calling you out for being a hypocrite for claiming I'm assuming things when you guys are granting causality hax and fate hax for warping an entire space-time continuum, and good job not paying attention to the black hole tabber where the only scans the black hole has is consuming the multiverse with no mention of causality and fate hax being affected at all as a result of affecting the space time continuum. Wow, timelines = history? You mean the thing that's just common knowledge to anyone on how timelines work? That means absolutely nothing here for causality and fate hax, almost every single franchise that focuses on timelines use history and timelines interchangeable, that doesn't mean we grant causality and fate hax for these characters unless specified they're warping causality and fate itself for warping the space time continuum.

That scan means literally nothing as it doesn't tell me anything about him warping/controlling literal information itself. Give me actual scans that characters can control literal information itself and destroy it when burning time scrolls because everything you're showing me is just stuff the tokipedia has, and at best only scales to Fu with prep time on his device. What part of that remotely means it has actual records? Again you're not understanding the meaning of record here, To record something, it's a verb, not a noun, nothing about "recording an event" has anything to do with information hax as they're two completely different meanings, and again, no scans that they control the literal information and concepts itself, especially type 1 concepts as you have no proof that they're independent from reality.

How about you give me some concrete evidence of the characters controlling literal concepts and information and it being a requirement to destroy the time scrolls instead of something so vague that it can mean literally anything else, and actually understand what the hell record means because you're not understanding that it has more than one meaning, especially with how it's being used here.

 

[Braking]

i feel like both sides should move to a pm and talk there until both sides reach a conclusion.

 

[Ss3micah]

How about you pay attention to what I'm saying instead of taking me out of context for the nth time here? Warping space time does not grant you causality hax, you need explicit statements that they're warping causality itself and fate itself with warping space time for those abilities to be accepted on the page, because as of now that's just space time hax, nothing more nothing less.

Alright so just to place by your game a little bit I'll ask this question instead
What about warping history itself?

And to provide additional context I mean warping space-time (Yes for Argument Sake we are gonna say Warping Space-Time) to the point that events in the timeline/history are altered including events in the past, present and future causing various effects such as:

• Undoing the death of characters because the events that should have lead to their deaths were removed
• Characters being present in time periods they don't even exist
• Characters that should not exist existing
• Events that never occurred in the original timeline now occurring
• Characters existing before the events that lead to them existing even happening

Are you gonna tell me that doing all that is pure Space-Time Manipulation and no shape nor form of Causality Manipulation because the word CAUSALITY is not explicitly stated?

 

[luis3333]

The argument that manipulation is not mentioned by chance makes no sense when it shows that these powers function as a

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ss3micah Sure, elaborate how exactly these events are changing? Is the history changing because of the fact they're literally warping causality/fate or was it anything else? Or did we get no elaboration on what exactly they're doing specifically, leaving it to a massive assumption where we assume one thing or another? Without any further evidence on these two direct abilities are being used when warping the space time continuum we do not assume they automatically have these abilities, because by this very logic every single tier 2 with Low 2-C range and higher has causality and fate hax, which isn't how we do things on this site, we need actual evidence for causality and fate hax being controlled as a product of warping the timelines, cause without it, it's only space time manipulation at best. We don't grant blood manipulation or biological manipulation for someone destroying someone's entire body as there's many ways one can achieve the end result.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

On second thought, I do agree with Griffin regarding the conceptual manipulation part with Janemba parts being good, but agree with Glass on Information Manipulation.

Also, on second thought, I actually don't think the proposals for Causality Manipulation hold up. It looks like it's just space-time distortion that effects the entire multiverse and distorts all time and space. Doesn't look like actively controlling the laws of cause and effect.

I’m mostly in the same boat as Medeus, but agree with Glass on Information/causality/fate hax.

 

[Ss3micah]

@Ss3micah Sure, elaborate how exactly these events are changing? Is the history changing because of the fact they're literally warping causality/fate or was it anything else? Or did we get no elaboration on what exactly they're doing specifically, leaving it to a massive assumption where we assume one thing or another? Without any further evidence on these two direct abilities are being used when warping the space time continuum we do not assume they automatically have these abilities, because by this very logic every single tier 2 with Low 2-C range and higher has causality and fate hax, which isn't how we do things on this site, we need actual evidence for causality and fate hax being controlled as a product of warping the timelines, cause without it, it's only space time manipulation at best. We don't grant blood manipulation or biological manipulation for someone destroying someone's entire body as there's many ways one can achieve the end result.

Bruhh I asked a simple question

Now I will ask a simpler question:

Affecting and changing the entirety of History and events in the timeline
Altering the Past, Present and Future
Distorting events making what should have happened not happened and what happened either never happened or happened differently

These are all effects commonly associated with Causality Manipulation that exist on SEVERAL different profiles ALL WITHOUT mentioning the word CAUSALITY nor any word close to it
Are you, Theglassman12, saying that if all these effects were achieved by warping the Space-Time of the Multiverse, it's no longer considered Causality Manipulation?

Please Answer Yes or No
Btw, if your answer is Yes, then I suggest you and others make an OFFICIAL Space-Time Manipulation Page that details those effects explicitly so that this issue can be resolved effectively and immediately.

 

[AguilaR202]

I’m not really sure if it matters what people end up classifying their abilities as, itdoesn’t matter if it’s time/causality/probability manipulation the only thing that matters are the actual displayed effects which afaik no one has actually debunked and instead just jumped into the ‘what should we classify this as’ part of the discussion.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ss3micah how about you answer my question instead of dodging it? Because you not answering my question isn't helping your case when you don't have an answer.

None of the examples you remotely bring up for other pages remotely bring up warping space-time continuums or timeline being actual causality/fate hax, which again by your own logic, every single tier 2 with Low 2-C range and above would get these hax with only statements of affecting the timelines and nothing more to elaborate on. So to answer your question yes it does not grant anyone causality hax or fate hax when it doesn't remotely elaborate on causality and fate hax being warped for an entire timeline, making an entire space-time page is redundant as it's literally just spatial manipulation plus time manipulation combined into one, so yeah answer my question right now, cause you have like 3 staff members disagreeing with the abilities, and if it's just a repeat of what I already addressed then we're moving on to the concept hax and the rest of the abilities I'm addressing in this thread.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

@Theglassman12 Imagine having the audacity to call Vietthai a hypocrite when you've consistently ignored every scan which show the Tokipedia being a copy of a Time Scroll, and the Time Scrolls actually having the capability to record Time Rifts. You ignored the statement about Fu accurately replicating the Time Scrolls, you ignored the statement about Tokipedia being just a Time Scroll for the Time Rifts, you ignored the scan where Tokipedia was actually shown to be a scroll and not a computer, and you completely ignored the scans of Time Scrolls actually being capable of recording the Supreme Kai of Time Demigra Time Rift, just like the Tokipedia can, with the entire Time Vault and everything in it being visibly corrupted by the change in history regarding that Time Rift timeline just like the Time Scrolls always do when history is changed. You even completely twisted the statement about "Time Scrolls not recording Time Rifts" to suit your own headcanon, while completely ignoring the actual context of it. And finally, you ignored the scan that Vietthai sent, showing how a Time Scroll actually contains record of events like an actual, pre-recorded video. And to further prove this, let me give you a bonus clip where a Time Scroll recorded and showcased/played Raditz killing Goku and Piccolo like an actual video. And since I'm generous, here's two more scans where the Time Scrolls recorded and played Goku (in Vegeta's body) getting killed by Ginyu (in Goku's body) and Goku getting ready to fight Frieza, like a recorded video again. Let me guess, a literal video record of an event is not an actual record now?

The level of ignorance and denial that you've projected in this thread is actually embarassing. I know you're going to ignore these scans again like you've done for the last 2 pages, but that's alright. It only serves as further evidence for your ignorance. So go ahead, ignore them again. I know you can't debunk any of this, so ignoring it is your only option. How can the Time Scrolls react and be corrupted by a change in history in that Time Rift if they literally can't record that history lmao. And you know what, how are the Time Scrolls not actually containing records of history when they're literally visually shown to contain records of events in the form of a pre-recorded video.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I completely agree with OwO... I'm seriously disappointed that the discussion turned out this way.

 

[Braking]

facepalm

 

[Greatsage13th]

Yare

 

[Aachintya31]

lol

 

[sanicspood]

Damn