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Dragon Ball Heroes Special Ki Additions
- Thread starter Vietthai96
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No because those were other points I asked and we finished those discussions. Everything I listed was not addressed in the entire thread
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What scans do you need for each ability I'll try to find them for you
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I need to look over these. I'll get back to you guys.
Yeah, this has become a thing. Though isn't that for physiology pages? If Dark Factor is hard to explain then a blog should be fine in my opinion but if Dark Factor is simple to grasp, it shouldn't be there.
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Doesn’t Towa Mira Fu Cumber and Mechi all have dark ki
Vietthai96
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Well, back now
Dark Factor have 5 users: Brainwashed Chronoa, Fu, Mechikabura, Towa (along with Mira when he fuse with her and turn into Final Form), Universe Tree. There is also more characters but we only at the first stage of making profile for them like Xeno Dark King Vegeta
Evil Ki have 4 users: Cumber, CC Vegeta, CC Goku, Fu. There is more characters which we still in the process of making them like: DBH Turles, DBH Bojack
It can directly affect what inside the Scroll
Actually, she BFR the entire Demon Realm along with the Demons to the Crack of Time, outside of the flow of Time (she directly said that "wander with me forever outside the flow of Time, Demon Realm"). And she also erase every "trace" of it inside the Scroll
No, what i mean is just depend on feat, Time Power users like Chronoa can erase, but that only them. Just interacting and killing the guy is just NPI
Anyway i decided to do translation for all the Japanese scans about Janemba and they all point toward Janemba being Evil Ideas (some translations even stated Evil Concept but well) since there were some previous contexts mistake
Actually:
Dark Factor have 5 users: Brainwashed Chronoa, Fu, Mechikabura, Towa (along with Mira when he fuse with her and turn into Final Form), Universe Tree. There is also more characters but we only at the first stage of making profile for them like Xeno Dark King Vegeta
Evil Ki have 4 users: Cumber, CC Vegeta, CC Goku, Fu. There is more characters which we still in the process of making them like: DBH Turles, DBH Bojack
The thing is, we evaluate it based on contexts and feats, since like you said, concept is abstract, manipulating concept is manipulating something that abstract in nature. Currently even with our Conceptual Manipulation, it is a power that just boil down to manipulating something abstract that define and shape reality, and change some aspect of physical reality in the process that why we have characters like Bleach manipulating Name get Conceptual Manipulation. Type is just based on the scale said abstraction can affect reality, which should be evaluated based on contexts and feats, not because it sound like a not fundamental enough. Anyway like i said, based on Sealas statement, he clearly stated he need to destroy all of existence and reshape it from nothing, scratch to remove Evil, which if Evil is not fundamental enough (type 3) then Sealas didn't need to go that far since he capable of creating an entirely new reality/timeline which was stated by Chronoa to be accurate down to the last blade of grass, he could remove Evil directly; so it must be fundamental enough that define an aspect of all reality itself for him to go that far, Type 1 is just independent from reality which i already explained in the sandbox, since he capable of destroying all of existence via his raw power, if it is type 2 he didn't need to go after the Time Scrolls, so it is type 1
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I understand that it can influence what is inside the Scroll directly, what I want to know is, can it influence the concept directly or not? BFR and erasing every trace don't mean conceptual hax, obviously, although the latter may be good supporting evidence, then again, it may just mean that the target has been erased from time or causality (if everything related to it also disappears) instead of conceptual erasure.
Erasing AE doesn't mean conceptual hax either, you need the actual evidence for it affecting the concept itself instead of NPI. For reference, Dracula can erase Death, who is AE and that feat is listed as Existence Erasure on his page only (and he has CM for a separate reason).
While my translation disagrees with you, I don't think that matters anymore since one of your scans outright states that he is the incarnation of evil as opposed to the evil itself, so the discussion can end here I believe?
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Literally turns Fu into a child
Dogidogi in the scan literally just spreads his energy to paralyze them. The Time Birds mainly use Time Power
The unknown histories were created from the thoughts and desires of other people. The Bardock/Mira history was one of them.
The Crack of Time is stated explicitly to be outside the dimension of time and time itself entirely. The term "space" is only referring to an area outside of time, nothing more. It's not a Demon Realm.
Removing Dura Negation is fine.
What "source"? Are you referring to Mechikabura's castle? That's not a source for the Demon Realm's darkness. It's literally just a castle, nothing more. There's no "source" for the Demon Realm's darkness. It's literally a shadow world filled with dark ki, which Tokitoki purified with his energy.
The rest can be handled by someone else, as I have more important matters to attend to atm
Dogidogi in the scan literally just spreads his energy to paralyze them. The Time Birds mainly use Time Power
The unknown histories were created from the thoughts and desires of other people. The Bardock/Mira history was one of them.
The Crack of Time is stated explicitly to be outside the dimension of time and time itself entirely. The term "space" is only referring to an area outside of time, nothing more. It's not a Demon Realm.
Removing Dura Negation is fine.
What "source"? Are you referring to Mechikabura's castle? That's not a source for the Demon Realm's darkness. It's literally just a castle, nothing more. There's no "source" for the Demon Realm's darkness. It's literally a shadow world filled with dark ki, which Tokitoki purified with his energy.
The rest can be handled by someone else, as I have more important matters to attend to atm
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@godofice literally everything in my comment that a lot of folks won't respond to for some reason.
@LordGriffin1000 it applies to abilities too, Homestuck had a verse ability page with only like 2 characters scaling at best and it caused the discussions on what's allowed and what's not for verse specific ability pages.
@Dagoth_OwO then the gogeta stuff needs to be removed for just that scan, though it also raises some questions on why the time users resist age hax if fu and chronoa and age their bodies with time power.
if you have any scans that Dogidogi have time powers too that would be great.
Is that even subjective reality when the eggs just make changes like having one make an action to change an event? The eggs aren't taking what's inside someone's thoughts and projecting it onto reality, or making something fake become real.
That doesn't exactly answer my question on it being a literal void. It being outside of time doesn't make it a void unless having dimensions outside of time always counts as voids in the wiki which I'm not aware of.
Literally the last 10 seconds of this clip has this beating heart thing that just dies out from toki toki blowing everything up, that's what I'm talking about.
@LordGriffin1000 it applies to abilities too, Homestuck had a verse ability page with only like 2 characters scaling at best and it caused the discussions on what's allowed and what's not for verse specific ability pages.
@Dagoth_OwO then the gogeta stuff needs to be removed for just that scan, though it also raises some questions on why the time users resist age hax if fu and chronoa and age their bodies with time power.
if you have any scans that Dogidogi have time powers too that would be great.
Is that even subjective reality when the eggs just make changes like having one make an action to change an event? The eggs aren't taking what's inside someone's thoughts and projecting it onto reality, or making something fake become real.
That doesn't exactly answer my question on it being a literal void. It being outside of time doesn't make it a void unless having dimensions outside of time always counts as voids in the wiki which I'm not aware of.
Literally the last 10 seconds of this clip has this beating heart thing that just dies out from toki toki blowing everything up, that's what I'm talking about.
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@Theglassman12 On the Time Egg thing, the "Unknown History" is shaped upon Trunks's desire to save Future Gohan
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Dark Ki stuff
Morality Manipulation : This is one of the most blatant examples to me. Hercule, who is a good person, gets corrupted and starts wrecking havoc and doing bad things.
Power Nullification: the scan in the page says that Dark Ki can actually suppress your power,so it should be fine.
Law hax: iirc Demons created the Demon Realm, a place that has completely different laws.
Evil Ki
Mind Manipulation: Vegeta literally states that Goku has been brainwashed by the Evil Ki. Plus, he seemed to only attack Vegeta and co. while he didn't even bother to attack Cumber.
About resistances, with the introduction of Universal Energy Systems, I've been told that resisting the energy system would allow you to resist all of its applications.
Morality Manipulation : This is one of the most blatant examples to me. Hercule, who is a good person, gets corrupted and starts wrecking havoc and doing bad things.
Power Nullification: the scan in the page says that Dark Ki can actually suppress your power,so it should be fine.
Law hax: iirc Demons created the Demon Realm, a place that has completely different laws.
Evil Ki
Mind Manipulation: Vegeta literally states that Goku has been brainwashed by the Evil Ki. Plus, he seemed to only attack Vegeta and co. while he didn't even bother to attack Cumber.
About resistances, with the introduction of Universal Energy Systems, I've been told that resisting the energy system would allow you to resist all of its applications.
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Isn't that because he was closer? Iirc Fu used it on Goku and Vegeta and they attacked him still while under it's effects, or was that anime only?
Vietthai96
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Actually no, Fu is not corrupted by the Evil Aura, he just used it, and it is also in the manga as well, and he didn't has Evil Saiyan state like Cumber, Turles or Evil Aura-empowered state like Bojack. Fu situation is like, eh, he pull the Evil Aura out and use it like an equipment then pull it back, since he want to experiment, he partially use it to experiment like corrupting and mind snaping Goku and Vegeta (for fun)
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I never said Fu was corrupted... My comment is referring to the one saying Goku only seemed to attack Vegeta and not Cumber. It has nothing to due with Fu being effected by it just that he used it on Goku like Cumber did, yet Goku still attacked him, indicating that he does attack anybody regardless of if they used it on him.
Vietthai96
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Yes that my points, Goku only attack who either not corrupted by the Evil Aura or not possesses the enhanced state granted by the Aura itself, while Fu did use the Aura, he not literally taking on the aura to transform into the enhanced state, thus Goku and Vegeta still target him. the only exception is when Vegeta gain corrupted by it when he is in the range of the battle between Turles and Cumber, he got corrupted then attack both of them briefly (possibly due to having no one else around other than Cumber and Turles), then controlled the Aura
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They are functionally similar, but they aren't the same thing. Dark Ki comes from the Demon Realm and can be used by pretty much anyone, Evil Aura is specific to Cumber and Turles.
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Turles, Vegeta,Cumber,BBM Fu and Berserk Goku
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If you could be more specific that would be nice
2. I legit named 5 evil ki users and vietthai named 5 dark factor characters so no it won’t be removed off the special ki manip page
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Also what are you wondering is a void?
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@Ottavio_Merluzzo I still am unsure if that can even be considered subjective reality, cause he didn't literally take something trunks imagined and made it onto reality, he just created another timeline where trunks followed his emotions over logic to save his best friend.
that should be in the page then, since there's no implication of it being normal mind control and just hercule acting like hercule yet doing evil things.
I'm referring to the advanced dark ki section since there's little to no scans or justifications for it beyond some changes in the timeline, normal dark ki is fine, just the advanced one I have an issue with.
Was the entire realm built by their magic or no? Because the scan mentions it always being a thing, so it just sounds like they adapted to the realm and made a place to live there as opposed to making everything.
Where exactly is that shown? Cause the scans just show Vegeta and Goku going insane by the evil ki and wildly attacking Fu, nothing about him serving Cumber or whatever. Especially when Fu haxed goku and vegeta to go insane and attack the guy who haxed him, idk if it's just mind manipulation, moreso it's them literally going insane.
Not exactly, especially if there's some contradictions, it should be a case by case basis, unless you have in lore explanations where characters point out how insane it is the characters got haxed by an ability they should resist and there being an explanation of some sorts, you'd usually just resist what you're shown to resist at best.
@godofice who exactly are the 5 for dark factor and evil ki? Cause Cumber's the only one I see for evil ki and Mechi and Fu and Towa's the only one I see for dark factor.
that should be in the page then, since there's no implication of it being normal mind control and just hercule acting like hercule yet doing evil things.
I'm referring to the advanced dark ki section since there's little to no scans or justifications for it beyond some changes in the timeline, normal dark ki is fine, just the advanced one I have an issue with.
Was the entire realm built by their magic or no? Because the scan mentions it always being a thing, so it just sounds like they adapted to the realm and made a place to live there as opposed to making everything.
Where exactly is that shown? Cause the scans just show Vegeta and Goku going insane by the evil ki and wildly attacking Fu, nothing about him serving Cumber or whatever. Especially when Fu haxed goku and vegeta to go insane and attack the guy who haxed him, idk if it's just mind manipulation, moreso it's them literally going insane.
Not exactly, especially if there's some contradictions, it should be a case by case basis, unless you have in lore explanations where characters point out how insane it is the characters got haxed by an ability they should resist and there being an explanation of some sorts, you'd usually just resist what you're shown to resist at best.
@godofice who exactly are the 5 for dark factor and evil ki? Cause Cumber's the only one I see for evil ki and Mechi and Fu and Towa's the only one I see for dark factor.
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@Theglassman12 I can concede on Subjective Reality. Maybe it could count as Reality Warping?
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@Theglassman12 Fu was very likely haxed before he merged with Dogidogi, considering we never saw Adult Fu with Dogidogi absorbed. As for Chronoa, I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Are you referring to her "adult state? That's just her "True Form"as the Supreme Kai of Time/Time God.
Dogidogi can perform Time Power attacks like Freeze and he's referred to as a Time God by Fu who absorbed him, just like Chronoa/Tokitoki are, and he's basically Tokitoki's sibling due to being born from another time egg like Tokitoki was
The Trunks "Unknown History" was created by Trunks' desire/conflict to help Gohan which he obviously didn't do originally, as he listened to Chronoa's pleas. The "Unknown history" is based on the thoughts of other people, which in this case was Trunks' conflict and thought/desire to save Gohan and create a peaceful future. The egg reacted to Trunks' inner conflict/desire to help Gohan, resulting in the creation of this history. It would seem Subjective Reality to me, since this history is the result of Trunks' thought/desire made manifest
Seems rather odd to me that a realm which is outside the flow time entirely would still have a flow of time, especially when its sealed denizens are imprisoned there due to being an actual threat to time itself. Chrono Trigger supposedly has a similar example with the "Darkness Beyond Time" but I'm not knowledgeable enough on the verse to claim that for a fact
That's just a part of Mechikabura's castle, nothing more. Since the castle is getting destroyed it's obviously going to "turn off". The Demon Realm itself is a realm filled with Dark Ki, so Tokitoki would have to purify that in order for the Demon Realm to be rid of the darkness.
Dogidogi can perform Time Power attacks like Freeze and he's referred to as a Time God by Fu who absorbed him, just like Chronoa/Tokitoki are, and he's basically Tokitoki's sibling due to being born from another time egg like Tokitoki was
The Trunks "Unknown History" was created by Trunks' desire/conflict to help Gohan which he obviously didn't do originally, as he listened to Chronoa's pleas. The "Unknown history" is based on the thoughts of other people, which in this case was Trunks' conflict and thought/desire to save Gohan and create a peaceful future. The egg reacted to Trunks' inner conflict/desire to help Gohan, resulting in the creation of this history. It would seem Subjective Reality to me, since this history is the result of Trunks' thought/desire made manifest
Seems rather odd to me that a realm which is outside the flow time entirely would still have a flow of time, especially when its sealed denizens are imprisoned there due to being an actual threat to time itself. Chrono Trigger supposedly has a similar example with the "Darkness Beyond Time" but I'm not knowledgeable enough on the verse to claim that for a fact
That's just a part of Mechikabura's castle, nothing more. Since the castle is getting destroyed it's obviously going to "turn off". The Demon Realm itself is a realm filled with Dark Ki, so Tokitoki would have to purify that in order for the Demon Realm to be rid of the darkness.
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If something is created through your desire or dreams wouldn’t that qualify for subject reality? If it doesn’t can you explain why I’m not to knowledgeable in subjective reality also Mechibakura, Towa, Mira, Fu, Posessed Chronoa dark factor is a advanced dark ki so the same thing applies
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Do
Do you have any other things you thing shouldn’t be on the verse page because 5+ users having it rule isn’t broken here
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You understand that things such as laws, thoughts, and feelings are abstract, yes?
Yet we do not make the above things conceptual simply because they are abstract. We acknowledge that although such things are abstract, that status does not necessitate it being conceptual without further elaboration about their nature and relation to reality. We would require these things to display form-like properties to qualify for types 1 and 2. If they do not exhibit these qualities, they at most could qualify for type 3 unless there is material that gives them the exposition necessary to fulfill these requirements.
No, it does not. If so, law manipulation as a power would be entirely redundant, as it is both something abstract and something that defines and shapes reality. However, not all laws are considered to be concepts because there are more qualities something needs to have to be a concept than being an abstraction and defining reality.
Bleach qualifies for it because name's do show form-like qualities, with every instance of a character's name being affected once the "prime name" is affected.
I did not say that, and no type is not based on the scale of the concept. What matters is the nature and properties displayed by the abstractions.
And no, not sounding fundamental is not a part of my argument if I came across as such, then I partially apologize. However, within my text, was there a mention of fundamentality being a critical part of what makes something a concept? If so, I do not see it.
You seem to be underestimating how hard it would be to purge an idea from reality, whether it is conceptual or not, it would at minimum require the eradication of all life and all potential forms of life developing.
The mention of Sealas being able to create a perfect clone of reality should not be used, because as the descriptor states, it would be a complete copy of reality, down to the fact that evil exists.
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That was not what glass was referring to, glass (to my reading) was asking if there is any actual proof for the place itself to be physically non-existent, rather than just existing outside of the temporal axis of the universe, which does not prove that its existence is as such.
And for Chrono Trigger there is more to the Darkness Beyond Time's NEP than just being outside of time, such as it being where all things that are erased go, such as timelines and people, with it also lacks dreams, the basic component of all things in Chrono Trigger.
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@Ottavio_Merluzzo maybe it could be reality warping? I'm fine with it being a possibly.
@Dagoth_OwO yeah that's what I'm referring to since it seems to age her body drastically compared to how she is normal, given this happens to both Fu and Chronoa, the latter being someone naturally in tune with time powers I don't really see how it would be a resistance.
So Dogidogi is one of the two eggs that were hatched did I get that right? If that's the case then I'm fine with it, just clarify that Dogidogi comes from the same egg and would have the same power as a result.
That sounds more like some form of reality warping than bringing out something fake and making it real, which is what subjective reality is.
Not knowledgeable on Chrono trigger so I'm not going to comment on that, but we've never once have "outside of time" as evidence for voids at all. If that was the case then numerous different verses who have things outside of time would've gotten void manipulation a long time ago. If the crack of time was stated to be a literal void or be complete nothingness then I'd be fine with it being void hax, but it just seems like warping another dimension, on top of the fact one of the scans I've seen in the thread mentions it just being a space outside of time, not a literal void per say.
Last time I checked purification isn't exactly a move that would actively try to destroy the entire area as a result. The fact Tokitoki is destroying the entire place on top of rendering that core dead, which results in the demon power going away just seems like it destroyed the source of the demon power there, rendering the rest of the power gone, as opposed to literal purifying.
@Dagoth_OwO yeah that's what I'm referring to since it seems to age her body drastically compared to how she is normal, given this happens to both Fu and Chronoa, the latter being someone naturally in tune with time powers I don't really see how it would be a resistance.
So Dogidogi is one of the two eggs that were hatched did I get that right? If that's the case then I'm fine with it, just clarify that Dogidogi comes from the same egg and would have the same power as a result.
That sounds more like some form of reality warping than bringing out something fake and making it real, which is what subjective reality is.
Not knowledgeable on Chrono trigger so I'm not going to comment on that, but we've never once have "outside of time" as evidence for voids at all. If that was the case then numerous different verses who have things outside of time would've gotten void manipulation a long time ago. If the crack of time was stated to be a literal void or be complete nothingness then I'd be fine with it being void hax, but it just seems like warping another dimension, on top of the fact one of the scans I've seen in the thread mentions it just being a space outside of time, not a literal void per say.
Last time I checked purification isn't exactly a move that would actively try to destroy the entire area as a result. The fact Tokitoki is destroying the entire place on top of rendering that core dead, which results in the demon power going away just seems like it destroyed the source of the demon power there, rendering the rest of the power gone, as opposed to literal purifying.
Vietthai96
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No, i never stated or said that "hey it is thoughts, thoughts is abstract, concept is abstract so thoughts must be concept too". What need to do is evaluate its feats and contexts.
Form-like properties, simply is, an abstraction that display the properties of being able to define and shape physical reality, define and shape reality is form. After that we evaluate it belong to what type.
With your logic, Reality Warping as a power is redundant because it is a very broad power that cover many more narrowed powers. Law Manipulation is a broad power that can cover many powers, it is even on the page itself, under the possible uses section, it cover up from normal type of law to abstract concept-based law. You can even place changing the law of physic as law manipulation because it manipulating a law to an extent.
Form-like properties, again like what i said above
Well then i also apologize for my misunderstanding, since i once have the same kind of thought like that, so i assume your arguments as such. However again i will repeat that, all concept is fundamental, type is fundamental to what extent, which practically scale of the concept. Type 2 and 1 both shape and define the whole reality itself, the different between type 1 and 2 is it independent from reality or not. Type 3 still fundamental, just less than 2 & 1 and it not shape and define the entire reality itself
Now come to Evil in DBH, again Sealas himself already stated multiple times that in order to get rid of it he need to destroy all of existence and reshape reality from nothing, scratch. Now if Evil is not fundamental enough to be at least type 2, Sealas didn't need to do so. He able to created a perfect clone of reality is just a supporting point for the above scans about why Evil should be type 1, because you can destroy type 2 or 3 via indirect way of destroy all of reality, type 2 dependent on reality and type 3 is less than type 2 so it will disappear along, and if Evil is type 2 or 3, he just need to blow up all of existence and then using his power to create a new one without Evil, however even with such abilities, Evil still exist, which mean Evil as an abstract essence exist completely independent from reality.
And if you talk about Form-like properties then yes, it define, shape and form evil beings across reality, especially Janemba who is stated to be manifestation of Evil Ideas itself
Well, the thing about Crack of Time is:
1. It is stated to beyond time, time in verse context refering to history, space-time/timeline, logically it mean that Crack of Time beyond time make it timeless, because if it is still space-time, they will refering to the realm as such
2. Like above, Crack of Time always being refering to as a dimension, not space-time. The word space in the scans is english localization, refering Crack of Time to be a place, a realm, not space as in spatial dimension/axis.
3. For visual support, the place is dark, which is also a property of Void. And before you say anything, i don't mean that being dark always mean void, this is just a minor supporting evidence
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@Theglassman12 It's simply just her transforming into her "True Form". You could even compare it to Tokitoki who grows into a giant bird in his True Form, despite already being an fully-grown adult in his "base". Base Chronoa is a "fully-grown" adult aswell
Yes, he's Tokitoki's twin basically.
I can agree that it's reality warping, although personally I'd add Subjective Reality in it too, due to the thought/desire stuff, but meh.
Seems rather odd to me, but if that's how the standards are then I can't really say much to it then.
But it's not the source of the demon power though. It's literally just a castle, nothing more. There's no implications of it being the "source" of demon power. Not to mention that Tokitoki's "waves" do visually expand further away from the castle, so they're not just hitting the castle but spreading out into the distance. The red orb turning off is simply a reaction of the castle being destroyed in the process.
Yes, he's Tokitoki's twin basically.
I can agree that it's reality warping, although personally I'd add Subjective Reality in it too, due to the thought/desire stuff, but meh.
Seems rather odd to me, but if that's how the standards are then I can't really say much to it then.
But it's not the source of the demon power though. It's literally just a castle, nothing more. There's no implications of it being the "source" of demon power. Not to mention that Tokitoki's "waves" do visually expand further away from the castle, so they're not just hitting the castle but spreading out into the distance. The red orb turning off is simply a reaction of the castle being destroyed in the process.
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@Vietthai96 that's not really evidence of it being a literal void, being outside of time doesn't mean you lack existence, that's never been a thing on the wiki. Same with it being a dimension, that still implies it exists physically, as opposed to it being nonexistent. The place being dark is a non argument here, other forms of fiction have different colors when referring to complete nothingness or nihility.
@Dagoth_OwO But she can still alter her body physique on age, so them resisting age hax seems ridiculous, it's like saying you resist being possessed because you got possessed by someone.
Then yeah, just add the scans that they're twins and come from the same egg with time powers and I'm fine with that.
Considering Chronoa states to clear away the demon realm's darkness, and Tokitoki just nukes the castle which results in all of the demon power going away, it seems moreso he destroyed the source of the demon's power than anything.
@Dagoth_OwO But she can still alter her body physique on age, so them resisting age hax seems ridiculous, it's like saying you resist being possessed because you got possessed by someone.
Then yeah, just add the scans that they're twins and come from the same egg with time powers and I'm fine with that.
Considering Chronoa states to clear away the demon realm's darkness, and Tokitoki just nukes the castle which results in all of the demon power going away, it seems moreso he destroyed the source of the demon's power than anything.
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Isn’t subjective reality more like making your thoughts and dreams a reality and desire would somewhat be close to the 2 but if it’s not then
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Making an alternate reality based on what someone wants to do at best just sounds like reality warping, if it was actual subjective reality then it wouldn't be showing Trunks actively trying to save gohan, it would just have trunk's thoughts on Gohan being saved come to reality as Gohan would appear out of nowhere without dying.
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I might’ve missed it but when did the scans show Trunks trying to physically save Gohan I thought it was just said that he did and the timeline was a result of trunks wanting to save gohan due to meeting an au version and the timeline being made
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