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You did the same thing just now.@Ottavio_Merluzzo You didn't even address my comments beyond strawmanning so your argument doesn't have any weight here.
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You did the same thing just now.@Ottavio_Merluzzo You didn't even address my comments beyond strawmanning so your argument doesn't have any weight here.
The statement contradicts nothing. Tokipedia being a "Time Rift Version", doesn't contradict them being the same when the Time Scrolls have feats of recording these same Time Rifts aswell. What is the contradiction? The fact that it records Time Rifts just like the scrolls? Not only are you ignoring context again, but you're literally making up contradictions that don't even exist lol. Chronoa doesn't record these Time Rifts since she considers them the "unofficial" history that won't affect the "true timeline" so they're not recorded in the Time Scrolls, making the Tokipedia the "Time Rift Edition" for recording these "unofficial" histories. If Chronoa deems something as "unofficial" then it's likely not gonna be recorded, simple as that. Both the SKOT Demigra Time Rift and the Bardock Time Rift have already proven that the scrolls can record these Time Rifts and these "unofficial" histories if necessary, so stop making up contradictions when they don't existExcept that the information you provide contradicts that when the tokipedia is literally a time rift version of a time scroll as stated by one of the characters so that already disproves they're the exact same thing.
By showing multiple scans of the Tokipedia not being affected by Time EE. If the information cannot be destroyed by destroying the container, then it's not a chain-reaction since you're not destroying what it contains. And false, Vegeta flat-out stated that the timeline was gone, not to mention the fact that even the Time Ring was gone too, unless you want to explain why there's only 6 Time Rings left at the end of the arc, instead of 7.Where exactly did you prove that it's not a chain reaction thing? You haven't even given any scans that proves that concepts and information is a requirement to affect the scrolls or the scrolls lacking a physical form throughout this entire thread. Also Zeno didn't really erase the timeline, otherwise they wouldn't have time traveled back in time to get the other Zeno.
You ignored the parts where he was stated to be formed from literal evil thoughts and ideas, and once again nitpicked statements. The "evil gas" and spirit statements only further supports his formless nature as literal evil. Again, are you seriously claiming that the very evil in a person's heart is just some random energy or gas? That's blatantly untrue and you know it. Evil is abstract by its very nature and SB Janemba could even be reborn from his evil energy. Janemba is a being of pure evil and evil energy, simple as that. Evil beings have evil energy, so Janemba being made from pure evil itself makes him a being of evil energy aswell. Evil energy can't exist without actual evil itself. Literally basic DB logic. He is both a being made of pure evil in a person's heart/evil ideas & thoughts, and evil energy.That is not in anyway shape or form abstract existence, especially when it's literally stated to just be a demon made from evil gas/vapor or him just being a demonic spirit with no evidence to suggest he's reliant on the concept itself to life, something that's the bare minimum requirement to qualify for abstract existence in the first place. Chronoa's statement means absolutely nothing here when Janemba has nothing to make him an abstract being.
The fact that he can destroy evil itself so that evil will have never existed. You do realize that if Sealas doesn't destroy evil itself, then evil people will appear in his new reality anyway. Killing all the wicked people in the multiverse is meaningless since evil is bound to reappear again in one form or another. That's the nature of evil. Sealas literally has a similar conversation with Beat where Beat claims that he'll defeat all evil beings who rear their heads in the future and he just brushes him off as a simpleton child, practically mocking him for such foolish beliefs. The notion that Sealas will succeed in his plans by simply killing all evil beings is literal nonsense. As long as the concept of evil exists, evil beings and acts will resurface one way or another, basic logic. You're literally putting Sealas in an endless cycle of resurfacing evil which he's trying to avoid by eliminating evil itself entirely. LordGriffin explained it pretty decently. And as for the plothole, it's literally resolved with a single conclusion. Base Sealas can't burn the scrolls. As I've made it expliticly clear with the Tokipedia, not even time erasure works on the scrolls, so Base Sealas has literally no chance of destroying the scrolls. Getting the power to beat up the Time Patrol is a bonus, as he was going to use the power to create the new world as he himself stated soAnd that proves concept hax how? Destroying all of evil is such a vague term that it doesn't automatically mean the concept of evil, just that he wants to kill the wicked people in the multiverse. You do realize the fact that there lacks any explanation for him not remotely attempting to destroy the time scrolls right away despite apparently having the capabilities to do so is still a plot hole right? I'm not conjuring up anything this is basic storytelling 101, if you can't remotely understand this then it seems you're the ignorant one here. Also good job not tackling my point on Ahms being made to combat the time patrol and not getting specific abilities to destroy the time scrolls, a great sign of progress when you can't even bother to address my arguments.
Because they're not indirectly destroying a concept. The Scrolls themselves are made by Time Power users, so they're literally manipulating information to contain them in a scroll. Not to mention the fact that the records themselves can't even be destroyed "indirectly" as I've shown with the Tokipedia. If the destruction of the container does absolutely nothing to the recorded concepts/information, then how is it "indirectly" destroying the information/concepts. You need to directly affect the recorded information/concept, simple as thatThis part raises for me a question, do we really grant someone conceptual hax just because it can indirectly destroy a concept? I mean, if I understand correctly about this whole discussion, the character in question can't destroy the concept of evil itself without affecting the Time Scrolls and records?
I mean, the fact that they need to destroy Time Scroll to get rid of the evi still remains unchanged; let say if the fight (between different verses) takes place in a neutral place (i.e SBA), this conceptual hax will not be applicable since there is no Time Scroll in the fight at all? That's what I'm understanding when you say that destroying Time Scroll is needed to destroy the concept of evil, because characters with actual conceptual hax can just straight up erase it without necessarily affecting other things.Because they're not indirectly destroying a concept. The Scrolls themselves are made by Time Power users, so they're literally manipulating information to contain them in a scroll. Not to mention the fact that the records themselves can't even be destroyed "indirectly" as I've shown with the Tokipedia. If the destruction of the container does absolutely nothing to the recorded concepts/information, then how is it "indirectly" destroying the information/concepts. You need to directly affect the recorded information/concept, simple as that
I don’t think that’s how the abstraction of neutral universes during vs matches work, otherwise the infinity Gauntlet wouldn’t be useable in any match.I mean, the fact that they need to destroy Time Scroll to get rid of the evi still remains unchanged; let say if the fight (between different verses) takes place in a neutral place (i.e SBA), this conceptual hax will not be applicable since there is no Time Scroll in the fight at all? That's what I'm understanding when you say that destroying Time Scroll is needed to destroy the concept of evil, because characters with actual conceptual hax can just straight up erase it without necessarily affecting other things.
Also I don't say that the records can be destroyed indirectly, I'm referring to the concept of evil within another structure being destroyed indirectly.
Fair point.@LordGriffin1000 the problem is there needs to be some elaboration on what exactly is being done here that would come to the conclusion that the concept of evil itself is being destroyed. Without the solid evidence that Sealas is specifically trying to destroy the concept of evil as opposed to just nuking the timelines that just has bad folks, we don't assume that. It's the same as if someone states they'd make sure "no trace of you remains", and nothing in the series remotely implies abilities like Existence erasure is a thing, we don't automatically assume EE unless shown otherwise.
Yeah that's fine, I'll see if I can't get any other staff members to comment here.
HereAlso didnt fu say that justice and other stuff like that are “too abstract”? I saw a scan like that in the blog and for some reason i cant find it rn (im in class lmaoooo)
Regarding age manipulation, it comes from toki toki's feat that turned fu into a child.Making a new post for this to make it easier to follow.
Age Manipulation (time power): Any scans on this?
Paralysis inducement (time power): Is there any scans to indicate that it's time power doing the paralysis because the gif doesn't really tell me much.
Reality Warping and Subjective reality (time power): None of the scans indicate reality warping, especially when the first scan is Fu needing the time bird with demon realm ki in order to do it, and the rest is just maintaining timelines, which is just a sustaining feat at best and not literal reality warping. Where exactly in the Bardock/Mira scan is it implied that they can take one's desires and manifest it to reality because the clip doesn't show me anything about this.
Void hax and NPI (time power): Where's the statement that the crack of time is a literal void? Especially if the crack of time is a demon realm when it's just stated to be a space, not a literal void?
Durability Negation (time power): Any scans on the characters being able to bypass durability with affecting space time would be nice, cause there's no scans on that at all.
Purification (Time power): Is there any indication that the time powers can literally purify the demon powers here because again, time bird blowing up an area doesn't tell me much when he nukes the source of the demon fuckery and everything turns to normal.
Morality Manipulation (Dark Ki): Where in the scans does it say that they turn sides based on morality as opposed to it being just mind control? Especially when the scans say they're being mind controlled? Also nothing about the scans for enhanced dark ki imply it's more potent than before, especially when you're using Chronoa being corrupted as proof despite using her being corrupted as evidence for the weaker version of dark ki? None of that makes any sense here.
Radiation Hax (Dark Ki): Where's the proof it's the exact same thing as the Blutz wave? It literally just gives Vegeta SSJ4 and skips the entire Oozaru form, something the Blutz wave does in the first place so it's not even comparable.
Physics and Law hax (Dark Ki): Like I said, the scan literally shows Fu using the power of the dark demon realm and the time bird to do this in the first place. So this doesn't remotely count for dark ki, just something specific that Fu did.
Power Modification and Power null (Dark Ki): Nothing in the description remotely implies them actively modifying or nulling the powers, just changing the timeline, so unless they actually modify the powers or nullify it, this wouldn't count.
Resistance to Dark Ki (God Ki): The fact the time bird got affected by transmutation from dark ki despite being a god doesn't really tell me that they resist every single application of Dark Ki, at best this seems like they resist the mind control aspects of dark ki, not literally everything else.
Resistance to Possession (God Ki): The time bird and universe tree was the reason Goku resists this, so this isn't even a normal god ki resistance in the first place.
Resistance to Power Null (Dark Factor): The fact the dragon can nullify Mechi's mind control despite saying he can't do anything about it doesn't really make it consistent here, it's a contradiction if he can grant Demigra the ability to stop Mechi's mind control and also just the same old dragon balls rule of not affecting beings stronger than them.
Resistance to Memory Hax (Dark Factor): Any scans on the Dark Factor resisting Android 21's waves? Cause nothing's there, also what about seeing your memories remotely imply a resistance if he doesn't resist his memories being tinkered in the scans?
Resistance to Space hax (Dark Factor): Nothing about this is warping space, just reversing time.
Resistance to reality warping (Dark Factor): What part of this is a resistance if it just affects the environment and not the people itself?
Corrosion Inducement (Destruction Ki): Nothing about Beerus and Champa's fight is corrosion, just more deconstruction/EE given their powers.
Paralysis and Telekinesis (Destruction Ki): Which one is it, telekinesis or paralysis cause you can't have both while claiming it's a telekinesis, also a gif would be nice.
Mind and Morality hax (Evil ki): Is it even mind control or morality hax when the scans are literally just goku and vegeta going insane with the ki?
Limited Power absorption/nullification (evil ki): The scan seems weird, this just looks like the ki overpowered Vegeta's ki, not that it absorbed or nullified the energy for Vegeta.
Also why are you guys using this scan for both Dark factor AND Dark Ki despite saying the former is better than the latter? Doesn't make it consistent here.
Also just a side tangent in general, but the Dark Factor and Evil Ki shouldn't be on the verse page given with new rules stated you need at least 5 users of the same ability for it to register as a standalone page. So Cumber's stuff shouldn't even be there, same applies to Dark Factor when Mechi and Fu are the only ones who scale to this.
Concept and thought are not synonyms tho, if anything they just contradict to each other...Although even if he is literal concept, I'm not sure why destroying him can be conceptual hax instead of just NPI.Good job once again ignoring the scans of him being literal evil ideas and thoughts given form. The fact that you "can't see" evil ideas in this scan once again proves your ignorance. It's literally written in big text lol. Also nice job ignoring the evil thoughts scan. That aswell qualifies for being an abstract as stated in the AE page. Being a thought or idea qualifies for AE and Janemba has both statements, something which the other staff members agreed with. So not only are you ignoring scans but also the actual wiki standards lmao. At worst, it'd still be type 2 CM.
Pretty busy, but a quick response. Janemba major role is to support the fact the Evil that Sealas mentioned in his dialogue is not some flowery language but an actual fundamental abstract component of reality, that is a reason for a blog, since i'm not crazy enough to just throw only one mention of Evil and then start claiming it being a concept. There is something called supplement evidences and context, nothing will make sense if you isolating, dividing context and nitpicking themConcept and thought are not synonyms tho, if anything they just contradict to each other...Although even if he is literal concept, I'm not sure why destroying him can be conceptual hax instead of just NPI.
I never said that it's flowery language for once, what are you talking about? I'm saying that concept and thought are not the same so they can't be used to support each other.Pretty busy, but a quick response. Janemba major role is to support the fact the Evil that Sealas mentioned in his dialogue is not some flowery language but an actual fundamental abstract component of reality, that is a reason for a blog, since i'm not crazy enough to just throw only one mention of Evil and then start claiming it being a concept. There is something called supplement evidences and context, nothing will make sense if you isolating, dividing context and nitpicking them
Again Sealas already stated, he can only remove Evil is erase all and reshape reality from scratch, if Evil is not a fundamental concept, then he didn't need to go that far. Also, Janemba was stated to be Evil Ideas, ideas is abstract by itself, concept down to it core is just a type of abstract, conceptual manipulation is a power that manipulating abstraction that can change physical reality, that all.I never said that it's flowery language for once, what are you talking about? I'm saying that concept and thought are not the same so they can't be used to support each other.
And what I just said follows what I see in the scans and the arguments of your side, so if they are out of context then it's not my fault.
I know that idea is concept, I only have problems with it being evil thought as opposed to the universal concept of evil, like if someone controls thought it means mind hax not conceptual hax.Again Sealas already stated, he can only remove Evil is erase all and reshape reality from scratch, if Evil is not a fundamental concept, then he didn't need to go that far. Also, Janemba was stated to be Evil Ideas, ideas is abstract by itself, concept down to it core is just a type of abstract, conceptual manipulation is a power that manipulating abstraction that can change physical reality, that all.
I'm not saying that concept=thought. What I'm saying is that Janemba has evidence to support AE whether it's conceptual/idea or thought. CM and AE comes from idea, but the thought statement acts as support for AE. Also Viet seems to have shed some light alreadyConcept and thought are not synonyms tho, if anything they just contradict to each other...Although even if he is literal concept, I'm not sure why destroying him can be conceptual hax instead of just NPI.
I dont think they doneSo have you reached any further agreements here, and is somebody willing to apply what you have already agreed about?
Fym?you shouldn't wait how would you give knuckles prominence in a game
Most staff have agreed with CM for the Janemba stuff, LordGriffin and Maverick agreed with Glass in regards to info, although DDM did later agree with my post on info. LordGriffin did also bring up the possibility of "Possibly"So have you reached any further agreements here, and is somebody willing to apply what you have already agreed about?
Very well. Although the CM stuff seems to be only accepted for Janemba stuff, not Sealas.Okay, conceptual manipulation is probably fine then.
PerhapsAyo when yall done may i help editing?
Okay, then only that can obviously be applied.Very well. Although the CM stuff seems to be only accepted for Janemba stuff, not Sealas.
Did you even pretend to ignore this at all? Because it doesn't make your side look good here.and even beings like Infinite Zamasu[12], or independent fundamental concepts and information held in the Time Scroll[12]
Huh, why you using the thing that very old now???. The thread still going on, and the page is under revision, which could change anytime, so it not even related here. Also it is under Non-Physical Interaction. This is the proof that you nitpicking a certain part while ignore everything elseOh really, what do you call this line right here where you scale this to normal dark ki users then?
Did you even pretend to ignore this at all? Because it doesn't make your side look good here.
He said at worst, not at best. Please don't go twisting other comment like thatOh so you concede on my point that it's at best type 2 CM and not type 1 like you're claiming it is in the blog even if we assume Janemba's a concept? Thanks for conceding. Also good job not trying to respond to Delta's last comment there, totally consistent with you not being ignorant while claiming I'm ignorant huh?
Are you serious, there are ton of scan in the sandbox to supporting each others, so that mean you ignore scans and contexts then@Gogeta then that should be used instead of the gogeta statement.
Ideas is abstraction, concept is also an abstraction. Manipulating concept is just boil down to manipulating some abstraction that define something in physical reality, and type of concept is just the scale of it. And Sealas' statement made it clear, as Evil is an abstract component of reality which in order to to remove it, he need to burn down all of current reality and make a new one from scratch. No elaboration???, so you didn't read the sandbox and ignore it then, or you read it, but ignore it on purpose and nitpicking, isolating stuff instead@Braking I just noticed the big text there, sorry about that, but is that really all there is? Just "evil ideas" with no elaboration on it? Cause saying evil ideas doesn't make him a concept.
1. DDM share the same thought as Griffin??. Scan???@Antvasima Griffin's the only one who flat out said he agreed with concept hax at first but changed his mind when I explained to him how concept hax works. The fact DDM and Maverick share the same thoughts as Griffin for concept hax basically makes them agree with me since he conceded on the concept stuff, on top of them agreeing with me on information hax which both that and concept hax are used together with the time scrolls. So if they agree the info hax doesn't scale through time scrolls, then concept hax also doesn't scale.