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Wrong Chronoa btw, but still useful for our point.
I mean yeah they are chain reactions... in the same way that nuking the concept of evil causes a "chain reaction" that destroys all evil.
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Dragon Ball Heroes Special Ki Additions
- Thread starter Vietthai96
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No Green, it's not the wrong Chronoa. What the hell did you smoke?
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Glass was talking about XV2.
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And?
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Pretty sure he was talking about DBH Chronoa before.
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No. You're just creating a lot of misunderstandings. At least ask before you comment, please.
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That's Heroes Chronoa. The one who brought up XV2 was OwO, and for other reasonings.
I'll say it again : you're creating a lot of misunderstandings.
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Yes, Glass will likely think that you guys justified DBH Chronoa having a similar role to the time bird. Which isn't the case, that is all.
Vietthai96
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Huh, i don't understand what you mean here, but anyway i need to sleep
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Don't bother, as long as Glass does it's fine.
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What Ottavio said. And you're welcome
In the real world, the brainwashed individual is fighting other players in your team, so no. If creating fighting a fake copy in your head doesn't qualify, then I can agree with Illusion manip being removed
If Chronoa deems SS4 Bardock as impossible, then it simply is impossible. Even Super Saiyan alone was treated as a legendary status that only happened once a 1000 years, so it's not like literally everyone can easily gain the form. The same with SS2 and 3. You claim that I'm using headcanon and assumptions, and yet, you're using headcanon and assumptions to assume that regular Bardock somehow gained SS4 through unknown means. And considering we've never seen any version of Bardock ever use SS4 before, it makes it even more assumptuous. Proof that regular Bardock from the Episode of Bardock actually mastered SS1 and unlocked SS2 and 3? Proof that Bardock somehow found a way transform into a Golden Great Ape, gain control over it and master the form to become a SS4? Also, you would need to prove that Chronoa is lying here, since her statement makes it very clear that SS4 Bardock cannot originally exist. Therefore, Dark Shenron is indeed changing Bardock's future so that he has SS4
Fair enough
Towa at this point no longer serves Mechikabura. She serves only Fu now as the new Dark King, as she even refused to release Mechi from his sealing with the Dark Factor and declared Fu the only Dark King
Sealas can handle Base Chronoa easily, considering how effortlesly he smacked SS1 Trunks. Just smack her before she uses TPU and that's that. As for Sealas being the dumbest villain, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. As for the whole info and concept thing, I'll leave that Vietthai to explain
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The "dumbest villain" thing is one of the weakest arguments I've never seen, no offense.
The "Power" thing's reasoning is mentioned so many times by Sealas himself and others that it should be obvious.
The first argument is based on an extraordinary claim, and as such requires extraordinary evidence.
The "Power" thing's reasoning is mentioned so many times by Sealas himself and others that it should be obvious.
The first argument is based on an extraordinary claim, and as such requires extraordinary evidence.
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@Dagoth_OwO so basically it is just mind control at that point. Then yeah I'm not really sure I'm ok with illusion and perception hax being there.
You're also using headcanon that Bardock somehow cannot achieve SSJ4 in Episode of Bardock despite the fact that 1-4 are all forms achievable by any saiyan so long as they train hard enough and master the oozaru form. The burden of proof is on you that Shenron is specifically rewriting someone's fate to grant them SSJ4 in the first place. Cause again, assuming he cannot in any way is also as much of a headcanon as my claims, only I have some form of leverage with the fact the forms can still be achieved on their own, as opposed to god forms which literally need rituals and outside information to gain.
When she got the dark factor for herself, was that before her whole "make the new dark king"? Cause if so I can see her resisting it if that's the case.
So if he is apparently stronger than her, but didn't do anything about that, then yeah he kind of dumb for not following through.
@Ottavio_Merluzzo the lack of explanations for Sealas not heading to the time vault despite apparently having a lot of opportunities doesn't exactly help your case here. And for the nth time, prove you literally need to control concepts and information to affect the time scrolls, cause your blog doesn't prove they have these, and not only that, the whole "NPI for affecting the scrolls" is also not valid here when there's no statements that the time scrolls lack a physical form to begin with.
You're also using headcanon that Bardock somehow cannot achieve SSJ4 in Episode of Bardock despite the fact that 1-4 are all forms achievable by any saiyan so long as they train hard enough and master the oozaru form. The burden of proof is on you that Shenron is specifically rewriting someone's fate to grant them SSJ4 in the first place. Cause again, assuming he cannot in any way is also as much of a headcanon as my claims, only I have some form of leverage with the fact the forms can still be achieved on their own, as opposed to god forms which literally need rituals and outside information to gain.
When she got the dark factor for herself, was that before her whole "make the new dark king"? Cause if so I can see her resisting it if that's the case.
So if he is apparently stronger than her, but didn't do anything about that, then yeah he kind of dumb for not following through.
@Ottavio_Merluzzo the lack of explanations for Sealas not heading to the time vault despite apparently having a lot of opportunities doesn't exactly help your case here. And for the nth time, prove you literally need to control concepts and information to affect the time scrolls, cause your blog doesn't prove they have these, and not only that, the whole "NPI for affecting the scrolls" is also not valid here when there's no statements that the time scrolls lack a physical form to begin with.
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Thank you for helping out, Theglassman12. Just please keep in mind that these are helpful and well-intended members that you are talking with, so they genuinely believe in their own arguments.
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Bardock was just an example of Dark Shenron making "impossibilities possible" and creating warriors who originally shouldn't even exist. The argument still stands without him, it's just easier to explain with Bardock.
Why would he be that dumb and him needing to get some specific power is more than explanation enough.
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Fair enough
Not really when Chronoa herself has already established that it simply is impossible. Sure, Bardock can train to get stronger (if he even did that, since we have no clue what he did after beating Chilled, since he just walks away towards the sunset), but that doesn't automatically mean that he unlocked SS2 and 3, let alone 4. The lack of evidence for not only Bardock gaining these transformations, but also, the fact that we literally have no clue of Bardock's doings after Chilled only makes it far more assumptuous to claim. Not to mention the quality of his supposed training, since there's no proof of Bardock having the same experiences and training like Goku and Vegeta for example. And again, with Chronoa flat-out stating that Dark Shenron's "spacetime division" is causing warriors who originally couldn't have existed to appear, this only further supports my argument that Dark Shenron is indeed changing Bardock's future.
She used the Dark Factor to transform herself after Fu became the new Dark King, as her plan was always to make Fu the new Dark King even before she transformed. Also, Mechikabura can still possess people through the Dark Factor even after Fu became the new Dark King, as shown when Fu allowed Mechi to control his body briefly to buy some time.
We'll just have to agree to disagree with that then.
Edit: Sealas has also shown his intelligence by being able to create AI's like Ahms so he's definitely not an idiot.
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@Greenshifter bardock is literally your only example though given the scans so idk why you're saying it still works without him. And they never said they make the impossibilities possible.
He never said he needed a specific power, he just said he needed more power. Which again, where exactly is the whole "affect concepts and information being a necessity to affect the scrolls"? Because you haven't proven it.
@Antvasima I'm aware of that, I'm questioning the abilities accepted because it's either not explained properly or there's some massive misinterpretations of the scans given we've never accepted these abilities for other franchises.
@Dagoth_OwO again, all of those forms have no showings that they cannot be achievable on their own, so saying that he cannot get these forms is complete headcanon given we've seen Goku achieve these forms on his own. Spacetime divisions just sound like he's opening the space times to bring alternate versions of other characters to the Heroes one and not that they're warping fate and causality. If that was actual fate and causality hax they would've specified that happening.
then alright then, just add those extra scans to better clarify the context.
Then it's a literal plot hole that they do not explain why he didn't bother to attack the time scrolls when left exposed despite his intelligence.
@AwkguyDB Just talking about the abilities on time power, special ki, and the blogs from Vietthal for now since I have some questions/doubts on these abilities, and likely more from the other pages but that's for another thread.
He never said he needed a specific power, he just said he needed more power. Which again, where exactly is the whole "affect concepts and information being a necessity to affect the scrolls"? Because you haven't proven it.
@Antvasima I'm aware of that, I'm questioning the abilities accepted because it's either not explained properly or there's some massive misinterpretations of the scans given we've never accepted these abilities for other franchises.
@Dagoth_OwO again, all of those forms have no showings that they cannot be achievable on their own, so saying that he cannot get these forms is complete headcanon given we've seen Goku achieve these forms on his own. Spacetime divisions just sound like he's opening the space times to bring alternate versions of other characters to the Heroes one and not that they're warping fate and causality. If that was actual fate and causality hax they would've specified that happening.
then alright then, just add those extra scans to better clarify the context.
Then it's a literal plot hole that they do not explain why he didn't bother to attack the time scrolls when left exposed despite his intelligence.
@AwkguyDB Just talking about the abilities on time power, special ki, and the blogs from Vietthal for now since I have some questions/doubts on these abilities, and likely more from the other pages but that's for another thread.
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Admitting something is a plot hole automatically makes your interpretation on that subject inferior to an interpretation that doesn't have a plot hole since the latter would bring more consistency.
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Goku =/= Bardock. Comparing Goku to Bardock is a false comparison as he doesn't have the same intense training, combat experience, zenkais and etc.....which allowed him to become that strong and gain these tranformations. Goku achieving SS4 on his own doesn't even remotely prove that Bardock nor any other Saiyan for that matter, can do the same. Having the potential to become a SS4 means nothing unless they have a way to actually unlock it. "Spacetime divisions" can also refer to a "path" in history being separated/divided from its original course, thus changing regular Bardock's path/future/fate. And again, Chronoa herself has already deemed SS4 Bardock as an impossibility in history. You can claim that Bardock could theoretically get SS4 on his own all you want, but it'll never change Chronoa's conclusion. SS4 Bardock is an impossiblity as stated by Chronoa. Period.
Very well
I disagree. Not only because my previous reasoning, but also, it would pretty much render Ahms' existence practically pointless. Sealas himself has openly admitted that he can't fulfill his plan of remaking history with his power alone, which is why he created Ahms. He could only fulfill his plan of burning the scrolls with Ahms' power
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Yes, no problem. I appreciate that you are helping out.
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@Dagoth_OwO Chronoa literally never said he's an impossibility, she said that other warriors are showing up thanks to the space time divisions. Also since when the hell can the other super saiyan forms not be achieved by any other saiyan? That's a flat out lie when other saiyans that aren't Goku can achieve it. Bardock's no different so why the hell does him being capable of reaching SSJ4 suddenly become an impossibility. Besides even if we were to claim that this is legit that Bardock "shouldn't have existed" in a literal sense and not just an alternate version who got more powerful, why is this fate manipulation as opposed to just creation in general? Nothing proves shenron rewrote fate itself to make bardock destined to learn SSJ4, you need proof that fate hax is involved, without that it's a complete headcanon to assume fate hax is happening here.
And yet he loses to vegeta and trunks when he said he needs more power so the whole "he needs a specific ability" argument doesn't hold much ground here. Not only that, but nothing stops Sealas from just stealing the scrolls in general even if he somehow cannot destroy it to get a leg up over the time patrol.
@Greenshifter if your character is shown and stated to be intelligent, yet doesn't do the most common sense thing ever which is take the scrolls when no one defends it and there's no explanation for why, it's a plot hole, a literal gap in the story that doesn't explain the process of events. So again this doesn't explain anything for concept and info hax.
And yet he loses to vegeta and trunks when he said he needs more power so the whole "he needs a specific ability" argument doesn't hold much ground here. Not only that, but nothing stops Sealas from just stealing the scrolls in general even if he somehow cannot destroy it to get a leg up over the time patrol.
@Greenshifter if your character is shown and stated to be intelligent, yet doesn't do the most common sense thing ever which is take the scrolls when no one defends it and there's no explanation for why, it's a plot hole, a literal gap in the story that doesn't explain the process of events. So again this doesn't explain anything for concept and info hax.
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Yes she did. She literally she said that he can't originally exist. You're nitpicking one part of this statement while completely ignoring the other part. How am I lying when no other regular Saiyan than Goku and Vegeta have normally gained SS4? You're the one claiming that other Saiyans that aren't Goku can achieve SS4. Show me Nappa, Raditz, Gine or any other regular Saiyan for that matter actually getting SS4. "Bardock's no different" is also flat out false, since we never see him train, get any power boosts or unlock further transformations after Episode of Bardock. Goku, who already had a massively greater power level and a head start than Bardock in the Cell saga, had to train for seven years in the afterlife to gain SS2 and SS3 and he still couldn't use SS3 properly in the living world. Show me Bardock doing training even remotely comparable to that.
And as for fate manipulation, changing the future is like one of the most textbook examples of fate manipulation. Making an impossibility possible and changing Bardock's path/future is effectively changing his fate.
Edit: What Ottavio said aswell below
Only after the entire Time Patrol + the Dragon Ball Heroes ganged up on him after training. Also, why would he just steal the scrolls when the first thing he does as Fused Sealas is he goes to the Time Nest and is going to burn the scrolls.
Also, I have noticed that there are some important scans missing in the Time Power blog. First there is this scan which says that the scrolls contain history, which I recall you mentioning in your first comment. Secondly, there's the feat of the Time Scrolls being completely unaffected by time erasure/reset. Fu constantly erasing/resetting history and the story did nothing to the Tokipedia and its records which recorded the history of the Time Rift timelines (Tokipedia was specifically stated to be a perfect replica of a Time Scroll. The first pic in the album also mentions its "records" for all routes and branches). This is a blatant feat of time erasure not affecting the Tokipedia and its records/data, which would scale to the Time Scrolls, due to being an accurate replica of them. So yes, chain reaction is out of the option, since even direct time erasure/resetting from a non Time Power user isn't doing anything to the Tokipedia/scrolls and their contents.
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I wanna point out that any version of Bardock we've seen so far in Heroes specifically needs a power up to turn into any form above a regular Super Saiyan.
Here. Minute 4 : 17 . Warrior in Black clothes, a version of Bardock, easily turns into a Super Saiyan (no, that's not SSJ2, don't let yourself be fooled by the blue bolts, it's not the first time a regular Super Saiyan had those. SSJ1 Goku Black also had them in the manga. The hairstyle doesn't match too)
And now look here. The same Bardock states that he's gotten a power up from the Dark Dragon Balls, and we see him turn into a SSJ3.
I could also bring up Xeno Bardock (needed the Time Breaker Mask amp to turn into a Super Saiyan 3) and Xenoverse Bardock (he can only transform because Towa and Mira modified his powers) working the same way but that's just a plus.
The point is, Bardock in Heroes and Xenoverse is consistently shown to not being able to achieve any form above Regular Super Saiyan on his own , and he consistently needs external power ups to do so.
So the point of Bardock achieving it on its own is false. Chronoa also points out to that being impossible as OwO said. All this reinforces OwO's point about Dark Shenron.
Here. Minute 4 : 17 . Warrior in Black clothes, a version of Bardock, easily turns into a Super Saiyan (no, that's not SSJ2, don't let yourself be fooled by the blue bolts, it's not the first time a regular Super Saiyan had those. SSJ1 Goku Black also had them in the manga. The hairstyle doesn't match too)
And now look here. The same Bardock states that he's gotten a power up from the Dark Dragon Balls, and we see him turn into a SSJ3.
I could also bring up Xeno Bardock (needed the Time Breaker Mask amp to turn into a Super Saiyan 3) and Xenoverse Bardock (he can only transform because Towa and Mira modified his powers) working the same way but that's just a plus.
The point is, Bardock in Heroes and Xenoverse is consistently shown to not being able to achieve any form above Regular Super Saiyan on his own , and he consistently needs external power ups to do so.
So the point of Bardock achieving it on its own is false. Chronoa also points out to that being impossible as OwO said. All this reinforces OwO's point about Dark Shenron.
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@Dagoth_OwO did you remotely read my sentence or did you just cherry pick my point? I literally said "Also since when the hell can the other super saiyan forms not be achieved by any other saiyan?" It's shown with Gohan, Gotenks and Kefla that other super saiyan forms that aren't the base form are achievable. To say that anyone else that isn't Goku is capable of reaching these forms is a flat out lie, so stop bringing up red herrings and actually tackle my point. Never seeing him train doesn't debunk my point at all when there's no reason for him to not train because of his saiyan heritage to fight. Wow you just proved my point that Goku had to go through training to get the forms, meaning it's achievable by anyone who tries hard enough, so your argument doesn't stand up on its own. It never said it's changing the future though, Shenron just caused space-time divisions, nothing about him rewriting the future, when the hell was that ever stated in the scan?
To get a leverage over the time patrol to make them not plan against him? That's like asking why someone wouldn't capture the leader of an entire country if you want them to get said country to surrender, it makes the most logical sense.
The scan literally says it won't be recorded, so your argument doesn't hold up when the events don't get recorded into the scrolls, and again you're not using the word "record" properly, your term is a verb, the one you're trying to equate it to is a noun, not the same thing.
@Rabbit2002 yeah idk what exactly you're trying to argue here so you're gonna have to elaborate on the point you're trying to debunk.
@Ottavio_Merluzzo you do realize that "the bardocks we've seen so far" are not every single bardock ever right? The verse has infinite timelines, meaning anything is possible within those timelines, also you do realize Bardock getting SSJ3 thanks to dark shenron doesn't really help your point as that's a power boost for that sequence, so rewriting his fate to get SSJ4 is even more headcanon when Dark Shenron could easily just give him a power boost at will, which doesn't need fate manipulation to do so.
To get a leverage over the time patrol to make them not plan against him? That's like asking why someone wouldn't capture the leader of an entire country if you want them to get said country to surrender, it makes the most logical sense.
The scan literally says it won't be recorded, so your argument doesn't hold up when the events don't get recorded into the scrolls, and again you're not using the word "record" properly, your term is a verb, the one you're trying to equate it to is a noun, not the same thing.
@Rabbit2002 yeah idk what exactly you're trying to argue here so you're gonna have to elaborate on the point you're trying to debunk.
@Ottavio_Merluzzo you do realize that "the bardocks we've seen so far" are not every single bardock ever right? The verse has infinite timelines, meaning anything is possible within those timelines, also you do realize Bardock getting SSJ3 thanks to dark shenron doesn't really help your point as that's a power boost for that sequence, so rewriting his fate to get SSJ4 is even more headcanon when Dark Shenron could easily just give him a power boost at will, which doesn't need fate manipulation to do so.
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The fact that you are actually bringing up Gohan, Gotenks and Kefla proves that you have no clue of what you're talking about. Gohan and Gotenks are half-breeds who have been explicitly established to have greater potential than pureblooded saiyans of U7. As for Kefla, the tailless U6 Saiyans clearly have greater potential than U7 Saiyans since even base Cabba can fight equally with RoF Base Vegeta, not to mention the fact that Kale and Caulifla are clear-cut prodigies with greater potential than regular Saiyans. Stop calling me a liar when you're the one lying about Bardock comparing to halfbreeds and U6 Saiyans lmao. And as for the training point, you've once again failed to prove that Bardock did even remotely similar training like Goku did to achieve these new forms. Just look at Vegeta. He trained for seven years too and he still needed Babidi's amp to actually fight evenly with Goku as a SS2 and he didn't even unlock SS3. Not even during the GT timeskip did he unlock SS3. Ironic that you're calling me a liar, when you're the one lying about Bardock even doing remotely comparable training to Goku and Vegeta and then even comparing him to hybrids like Gohan who has the greatest potential than anyone in the entire series or Goten who can transform into the "ordinarily arduous" Super Saiyan due to being a hybrid but hasn't even unlocked SS2 yet lol. And since we're comparing other Saiyans here, Cumber who has mastered SS3 to such a level where he doesn't seem to have any stamina drain from it and can even transform into a Golden Great Ape, can't transform into a SS4. So yes, it's not as easy as you claim.
Dark Shenron changing the future is pretty obvious, as Bardock transformed into a SS4 like it's a normal thing for him, and as I've explained countless times, SS4 Bardock is an impossiblity. Dark Shenron made an impossible future possible by dividing his original path with his "spacetime divisions". At worst it'd still be causality manipulation
Actual headcanon. Why would he need leverage when he's going to burn the scrolls anyways. That's literally the equivalent of taking a hostage who you're going to murder anyway. You're literally admitting that Sealas can't destroy the scrolls in his base form, if he needs to leverage them and can't just burn them instantly
You've misintepreted, nitpicked and ignored scans again and frankly, I'm getting tired of it. The first and third images literally state that the Tokipedia does record the events. Here, let me type it out for you:
"You can also use Tokipedia to view records for both branching and alternate routes. See what partners you used, routes you've completed, and more" (Would you look at that, it even uses the term "record" as a noun.)
"I'll be sure to record anything I might forget in Tokipedia"
The sixth image where the Tokipedia robot mentions that anything happening in the rifts won't be recorded in the book is referring to the fact that these rifts are outside the normal history, and thus, won't be recorded in the Time Scrolls of the Time Vault, which is why you can change history in these timelines however you please. The Tokipedia, which is explicitly shown and stated to be an accurate replica of a Time Scroll, records the Time Rift timelines instead, as Chronoa's Time Scrolls don't record them. You can even literally see in the eight image of this scan that the Tokipedia did record all possible events/paths and that it's a clear replica of a Time Scroll lmao. Time erasure/reset isn't affecting the scrolls and their records. Period.
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I haven't mentioned all versions of Bardock is because those are shown multiple times to be just regular versions of him, aside from the four mentioned here (Xeno Bardock, Xenoverse Bardock,WiBC and the SS4 Bardock).
The last ones all had their histories altered.
Regular Bardocks have been consistently shown to be able to transform,at best, into a regular Super Saiyan.
No,the altered Bardock never made a wish to Dark Shenron. How could've he wished stuff when he was in another space time?! Have you read the scans or what?! You need to state the wish in front of the Dragon.
Not to mention,Dark Shenron was already fulfilling another big wish at the moment, so even if that Bardock wanted to and tried to, he couldn't have wished for anything. DS's power was limited to one wish at the time, so that's out of the way.
Everything else has been covered by OwO.
The last ones all had their histories altered.
Regular Bardocks have been consistently shown to be able to transform,at best, into a regular Super Saiyan.
No,the altered Bardock never made a wish to Dark Shenron. How could've he wished stuff when he was in another space time?! Have you read the scans or what?! You need to state the wish in front of the Dragon.
Not to mention,Dark Shenron was already fulfilling another big wish at the moment, so even if that Bardock wanted to and tried to, he couldn't have wished for anything. DS's power was limited to one wish at the time, so that's out of the way.
Everything else has been covered by OwO.
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Alright Im just gonna comment on the absolute madness of a debunk here that you just made
You do realize that "the bardocks we've seen so far" are not every single bardock ever right? The verse has infinite timelines, meaning anything is possible within those timelines
1. Chronoa and the Time Scrolls has a Cosmic Awareness of Every Timeline and Event that occurs across Time and History so even IF there was a Bardock that could have gone SS4, Chronoa would have known beforehand. The fact she EXPLICITY states that Bardock going SS4 is an IMPOSSIBILITY when she herself is aware of every possibility and the time scrolls even more so is already solid grounds for no SS4 Bardocks existing and was only made possible by Dark Shenron.
2. The Verse having Infinite Timelines so anything so anything is possible is a half-ass debunk. No character nor statement even remotely supports your claims and your seemingly ignoring all the points and evidence of SS4 Bardock being impossible. Chronoa HERSELF states SS4 Bardock is an impossibility, the very same Goddess that overseas ALL possibilities and Timelines but your gonna disregard her statement and push this narrative that "muh infinite timelines so anything can happen" with nothing to back up that claim
also you do realize Bardock getting SSJ3 thanks to dark shenron doesn't really help your point as that's a power boost for that sequence, so rewriting his fate to get SSJ4 is even more headcanon when Dark Shenron could easily just give him a power boost at will, which doesn't need fate manipulation to do so.
1. Bardock DID get SS3 thanks to Dark Shenron. However thats just it. He wished for the absolute limits of his potential to be drawn out and that limit only stopped at SS3. Meaning that the potential of arguably the most strongest Bardock iteration to date does not include it does and as your claiming, this is the SAME DS who would have given a random bardock a small power boost. DS giving a small power boost to a random bardock grants him SS4 according to you but that same shenron using full on Wish Hax to bring out the potential of on of the strongest bardocks resulted in SS3??? Clearly something more is at play
2. Otta already answered the point about Dark Shenron already not granting Bardock a power boost of any sort and not having Contanct with Bardock to boost his power in any way
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@Dagoth_OwO And yet Vegeta could reach SSJ2 on his own despite not being a half breed, nothing you're saying here debunks my point that these forms are possible with any saiyan, Goku being a prime example of this since he got all of this through training and mastering. You haven't proven that he hasn't been training, which makes no sense when his saiyan bloodline is literally made for battle, why the **** would Bardock not do anything like that? Babidi didn't even give Vegeta SSJ2, he just gave him a power boost, this isn't the same thing. You haven't given me any statements that Bardock isn't capable of reaching these forms despite being a full blooded saiyan. Give an actual statement where someone claims that no full blown saiyan is capable of reaching these forms.
It's not an impossibility, nothing in the scan says this, give me the quote where it's said he's an impossibility.
I never said he couldn't burn the scrolls down, I said he could still steal the scrolls at any time, which still makes him an idiot, which again you didn't prove concepts and information are needed to destroy the scrolls. Still waiting for that.
Which means information hax how? A computer having records doesn't give the scrolls information hax. What ******* logic is this where a computer recording the stuff on the scrolls somehow means information hax? Also did you like, not read the text where it said it wouldn't affect the time scrolls at all since it's a separate data thing? Because it shoots your argument in the foot.
@Ss3micah where the hell is "impossibiliy"? Before any of you guys continue, give me the actual text that she says they're an impossibility.
where did the scan say it was his absolute limit? Because all that's said in the clip is that he got a power boost from dark shenron.
It's not an impossibility, nothing in the scan says this, give me the quote where it's said he's an impossibility.
I never said he couldn't burn the scrolls down, I said he could still steal the scrolls at any time, which still makes him an idiot, which again you didn't prove concepts and information are needed to destroy the scrolls. Still waiting for that.
Which means information hax how? A computer having records doesn't give the scrolls information hax. What ******* logic is this where a computer recording the stuff on the scrolls somehow means information hax? Also did you like, not read the text where it said it wouldn't affect the time scrolls at all since it's a separate data thing? Because it shoots your argument in the foot.
@Ss3micah where the hell is "impossibiliy"? Before any of you guys continue, give me the actual text that she says they're an impossibility.
where did the scan say it was his absolute limit? Because all that's said in the clip is that he got a power boost from dark shenron.
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Yeah, Goku did. Goku =/= Bardock. Bardock training doesn't automatically mean that he can just acquire all the transformations. Re-read what I said. I never claimed that Babidi gave Vegeta SS2, only that Vegeta even after seven years of training didn't reach the same level of power as Goku and only acquired SS2 and not SS3. And you haven't given any showings or statement that Bardock did actually gain SS2, 3 and 4 by training. Your argument is only made worse by the fact that the only versions of Bardock that we have ever seen gain SS forms above SS1 are Bardocks who have been amped and altered severely. Even the Warrior in Black Clothes who had his powers drawn out to its absolute limits by his wish to Dark Shenron only granted him SS3 as a result, not SS4. Blatant proof that SS3 is the absolute limit of Bardock lmfao.
"warriors that originally couldn't have existed". Now then, do tell me how SS4 Bardock can supposedly "originally exist" when SS3 is Bardock's powers/potential being drawn out to their absolute limits. And if Dark Shenron's wish hax can only make Bardock a SS3, how is Dark Shenron not rewriting this random Bardock's future with his spacetime divisions, since he has SS4 like it's a completely normal thing for him?
And again, you're creating more plotholes and inconsistencies just like Greenshifter said. Why would Sealas just steal the scrolls and not burn them? You do realize burning the scrolls is his whole ******* plan. How many plotholes do you need to create to see that your argument makes no ******* sense lmfao.
The same records/data objectively shapes reality. The Time Scrolls contain history itself which is represented as records/data. The Time Scrolls are not a ******* computer lol. The hell do you mean "it wouldn't affect the time scrolls at all since it's a separate data thing?". The Tokipedia/Time Scrolls and the records/data contained in them are not affected by the reset. The chain reaction argument is completely false since not even time EE and resetting can affect the records. Normally erasing or destroying a Time Scroll doesn't erase its records/history/data that it contains.
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Dark Ki can transform you directly into a SSJ4, yes. With that said,.The reason why that Bardock exists is specifically stated to be the spacetime distortions.
And even then guys, Bardock is only one of the "impossible warriors"
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What Ottavio said. The spacetime divisions brought SS4 Bardock into existence
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Was talking about WiBC, he didn't get SSJ4 despite Dark Shenron theoretically being able to give it to him. Hinting there is something fundamental about Bardock that prevents him from obtaining SSJ4, which is consistent with Chronoa considering SSJ4 Bardock an impossibility.
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Originally couldn't exist = impossible to originally exist.
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Agreed
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@Dagoth_OwO And? Bardock is still a full blooded saiyan so his potential is just as great as goku, Goku isn't a ******* chosen one here where he's destined to get every form ever. Yeah, Vegeta only stopped at SSJ2 and wasn't aware there's higher forms of super saiyans that exists unlike goku who found a higher level. You do realize this doesn't debunk my point that any full blooded saiyan is capable of reaching the first 4 forms.
You do realize that dark shenron only being capable of giving Bardock SSJ3 shoots your argument in the foot that he fate haxed him? Because if dark shenron is only able to grant him SSJ3, then he cannot be able to do SSJ4 for him, meaning it's not consistent whatsoever with his power, which means this being an alternate bardock who got SSJ4 being thrown into the timeline makes more sense than Dark Shenron warping fate cause again, he couldn't give him SSJ4 there, and at best gave him 3, so DS didn't have anything to do with Bardock's form.
No the plot holes already exist if we're assuming Sealas is always more powerful enough to take out Chronoa and apparently have access to the time nest at any point in time.
I'm literally talking about the tokipedia here, and you literally have a scan here that says it won't be recorded in the book, this all does not prove information hax is a thing for the time scrolls, or how affecting the scrolls has concept and info hax since the arguments for both do not make any sense whatsoever and relies on a lot of assumptions.
@Greenshifter still not fate hax here, especially when you guys show me evidence that dark shenron at best can only give him SSJ3, meaning SSJ4 is not something dark shenron is capable of.
You do realize that dark shenron only being capable of giving Bardock SSJ3 shoots your argument in the foot that he fate haxed him? Because if dark shenron is only able to grant him SSJ3, then he cannot be able to do SSJ4 for him, meaning it's not consistent whatsoever with his power, which means this being an alternate bardock who got SSJ4 being thrown into the timeline makes more sense than Dark Shenron warping fate cause again, he couldn't give him SSJ4 there, and at best gave him 3, so DS didn't have anything to do with Bardock's form.
No the plot holes already exist if we're assuming Sealas is always more powerful enough to take out Chronoa and apparently have access to the time nest at any point in time.
I'm literally talking about the tokipedia here, and you literally have a scan here that says it won't be recorded in the book, this all does not prove information hax is a thing for the time scrolls, or how affecting the scrolls has concept and info hax since the arguments for both do not make any sense whatsoever and relies on a lot of assumptions.
@Greenshifter still not fate hax here, especially when you guys show me evidence that dark shenron at best can only give him SSJ3, meaning SSJ4 is not something dark shenron is capable of.
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