- 6,900
- 1,321
- Thread starter
- #121
There's no timeframe though, and I've stated again and again that these worlds have their own histories and any attempt to explain how that happened would either be headcanon-y or jumping through some hurdles
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Attempting to debunk Super Mario 64 power star (yet again!)
- Thread starter Hagane_no_Saiyajin
- Start date
- Status
- 3,719
- 2,757
Apparently others have said we can determine a timeframe.
- 12,562
- 2,517
Yeah I've laid out what I think is a reasonable timeframe above, which is however long it took for Peach's letter to reach Mario. In fact, to illustrate how low the timeframe could be, the last iteration of Mario's house is from Super Mario RPG, which is on the outskirts of Toad Town and very close to Peach's Castle. It also has a warp pipe on top of the house. The guidebook implies that Mario came straight after reading the letter, and however long that letter would take, the timeframe would have to be some amount less since Bowser would need time to arrive, steal the power stars, create the worlds and then seal the Princess/Toads away before Mario gets the letter/arrives. We can't come up with an exact timeframe I don't think but we can come up with an idea of the maximum timeframe.
- 11,135
- 14,120
I am not sure what to do regarding the translations and which one to use. While the English localization is official, Hagane makes some good points that it isn't completely accurate. But then, any fan translation of the original Japanese text would have the same problem. I guess we can do what Efi suggested.
Last edited:
- 3,719
- 2,757
I think I'm leaning towards letting the creation feat stay. But beyond this there's been not much input.
Personally I don't see how Bowser couldn't have created worlds since he has his own world in the castle. There's no way that was just always there. So he had to have created those, which this contextual information alone supports the creation and official translation.
Personally I don't see how Bowser couldn't have created worlds since he has his own world in the castle. There's no way that was just always there. So he had to have created those, which this contextual information alone supports the creation and official translation.
- 6,900
- 1,321
- Thread starter
- #128
- 6,736
- 13,761
Mario Odyssey actually uses Warp Paintings as well, and it takes to places with known history like Mushroom Kingdom.
- 167,857
- 76,474
@Foxthefox1000
Perhaps you should write down your username under Mario in the following page?
vsbattles.fandom.com
Perhaps you should write down your username under Mario in the following page?
Knowledgeable Members List (Verses)
This page is intended to be a list in alphabetical order of every verse page in this wiki, and the members who think that they are highly knowledgeable regarding them. Members who consider themselves as "experts" should have a significant amount of knowledge regarding a franchise, and are...
vsbattles.fandom.com
- 158
- 120
But you still haven't given any convincing reasons why Peach would have giant living paintings, not to mention "secret worlds" in some of the walls and windows. Histories can be made, and I just have a hard time believing Peach wanted a fiery hellscape world in her house. What about the ghost house? That's not even in a painting, so did that pre-date Bowser too? Wouldn't it alone qualify for making a world if Bowser created it from scratch?
- 6,900
- 1,321
- Thread starter
- #132
@LordNidhoggr even though Bowser is currently marked as Extraordinary Genius, from reading his page it seems out of his realm of expertise to create worlds/realms with entire histories to them like Bob-omb battlefield, hell he wasn't even aware of other power stars in 64. That's also to mention that there are NPCs who try to help Mario, Occum's Razor would suggest that these worlds existed beforehand and Bowser invaded and took them over instead of creating them outright. You would have to make so many leaps and bounds in logic to justify how Bowser can create worlds with their own histories. And why would Bowser make minions to support Mario, he's basically sabotaging himself.
And also, in previous threads, it has been suggested that the Power Stars aren't creating the worlds but instead allowing Bowser to immerge into the paintings, the Japanese text even supports this by using 'つかって' which is an inflection of 'つかる' (to immerge/to be submerged/to be soaked)
And also, in previous threads, it has been suggested that the Power Stars aren't creating the worlds but instead allowing Bowser to immerge into the paintings, the Japanese text even supports this by using 'つかって' which is an inflection of 'つかる' (to immerge/to be submerged/to be soaked)
- 3,719
- 2,757
But again, how do you explain Bowser's World being there if he didn't create these realms? It makes no sense.
The paintings being portals doesn't debunk their power at all. Neither does the immersion argument because, again, Bowser had worlds. For them to simply allow immersion the paintings and places would have to exist already, but I doubt there was a Bowser land already in the castle. He had to have created that himself. So why wouldn't this support the official translation since there's no reason for Bowser's Worlds to exist already within the Castle?
You can't ignore this big hole in the argument. Immersion and Portals doesn't explain it away either.
If the worlds have their own histories then they were created with their own space-times and already had histories. Bowser is often short-sighted he probably didn't realize that he would inadvertently create beings who would go against him. Regardless, there no way Bowser didn't create worlds when his levels exist in the castle, as there's no other logical reason as to them being there.
The paintings being portals doesn't debunk their power at all. Neither does the immersion argument because, again, Bowser had worlds. For them to simply allow immersion the paintings and places would have to exist already, but I doubt there was a Bowser land already in the castle. He had to have created that himself. So why wouldn't this support the official translation since there's no reason for Bowser's Worlds to exist already within the Castle?
You can't ignore this big hole in the argument. Immersion and Portals doesn't explain it away either.
If the worlds have their own histories then they were created with their own space-times and already had histories. Bowser is often short-sighted he probably didn't realize that he would inadvertently create beings who would go against him. Regardless, there no way Bowser didn't create worlds when his levels exist in the castle, as there's no other logical reason as to them being there.
- 6,900
- 1,321
- Thread starter
- #134
Well did I say that all of the realms weren't created by Bowser? Is there anything in that realm that remotely shows that it is 4-A? And was there a timeframe for creating his realm?
- 3,719
- 2,757
We already discussed the timeframe. And why would his world be any smaller than the others? It seems counterintuitive to wanting to establish a reign in the world(s) inside the castles walls and paintings if the world you create is infinitesimally smaller than the others. And again, if you acknowledge he is creating worlds then it supports the translation that he's creating them throughout the castle which includes the 4-A. And if you take the interpretation it's all one big world in the castle then this supports it even more.
- 6,900
- 1,321
- Thread starter
- #136
Why wouldn't it be?
- 6,900
- 1,321
- Thread starter
- #137
Just for anyone confused, this page might be good to look at: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Immersion
- 6,900
- 1,321
- Thread starter
- #138
I think I should give what Kieran said in a previous CRT
"I'm just gonna go ahead and say that we need some other way to scale Mario characters in general, as compositing them causes way more problems than it solves, it is widely known that the Mario series lacks any major canon between games, so we should treat each game branch as a different canon, since they should at least work among themselves, for example, the New Super Mario Bros series should have its own Mario, the Super Mario Galaxy series should have one, etc.
This stops any enormous amount of work for trying to scale between games that simply don't relate to one another, and I believe it is a good compromise compared to other ideas I've seen pop up in the past, such as every game getting a profile, which is a ludicrous task by any standards.
I believe the Mario series is in major need of something along these lines, as compositing the canon between unrelated games is unreliable, and is essentially an excuse to fully composite an entire verse that doesn't really need it and shouldn't really have it. This alternative will create more reliable pages, understandable profiles to viewers, and will overall show Mario how he actually appears in his different game series, and actually explains why he's different between games."
"I'm just gonna go ahead and say that we need some other way to scale Mario characters in general, as compositing them causes way more problems than it solves, it is widely known that the Mario series lacks any major canon between games, so we should treat each game branch as a different canon, since they should at least work among themselves, for example, the New Super Mario Bros series should have its own Mario, the Super Mario Galaxy series should have one, etc.
This stops any enormous amount of work for trying to scale between games that simply don't relate to one another, and I believe it is a good compromise compared to other ideas I've seen pop up in the past, such as every game getting a profile, which is a ludicrous task by any standards.
I believe the Mario series is in major need of something along these lines, as compositing the canon between unrelated games is unreliable, and is essentially an excuse to fully composite an entire verse that doesn't really need it and shouldn't really have it. This alternative will create more reliable pages, understandable profiles to viewers, and will overall show Mario how he actually appears in his different game series, and actually explains why he's different between games."
- 6,900
- 1,321
- Thread starter
- #139
This is what HeeHomeBoyMonkey said too
"how is this not understood to be a metaphor? It is the only thing consistent with what we know.
actually while we are at it we know these worlds existed prior, even ignoring the fact that they have their own histories. 64 DS, which was used as evidence above because of something involving the character portraits (which really made no sense at all but whatever) is a part of the brand new stars in the remake. If you beat Bowser with all 150 stars, he comments that there are Power Stars he did not even know about, and these are also in painting worlds btw.
So we have examples of painting worlds existing prior to Bowser's takeover, the original translation not literally involving creation, we have examples of fake celestial objects in one of the main courses, we have examples of paintings existing in the natural world, and we have the case of how Power Stars empower bosses and Bowser in the first place. The only inconsistency is Bowser creating anything, which does not make sense with what we know."
"how is this not understood to be a metaphor? It is the only thing consistent with what we know.
actually while we are at it we know these worlds existed prior, even ignoring the fact that they have their own histories. 64 DS, which was used as evidence above because of something involving the character portraits (which really made no sense at all but whatever) is a part of the brand new stars in the remake. If you beat Bowser with all 150 stars, he comments that there are Power Stars he did not even know about, and these are also in painting worlds btw.
So we have examples of painting worlds existing prior to Bowser's takeover, the original translation not literally involving creation, we have examples of fake celestial objects in one of the main courses, we have examples of paintings existing in the natural world, and we have the case of how Power Stars empower bosses and Bowser in the first place. The only inconsistency is Bowser creating anything, which does not make sense with what we know."
- 3,719
- 2,757
Perhaps that translations blog thing would be helpful actually now that I think about it.
- 6,900
- 1,321
- Thread starter
- #142
- 3,719
- 2,757
Also a lot of the Stars that were added to DS were Hidden Castle Stars, and even in the OG I'm pretty sure Bowser only says that dialogue with 100% completion which implies he wasn't aware of the Castle's Secrets.
- 3,719
- 2,757
This doesn't say anything about the Paintings and the Worlds inside the walls because the Castle Secrets aren't considered worlds by the game.
- 158
- 120
Yes, that's Occam's Razor...if you assume that the paintings were already there with worlds in them. Which, to me, is the bigger logical gap.
As for Bowser creating beings that would help Mario...I see that as the same logic for having power-up blocks in his castles in older games: it's video-game logic.
- 12,562
- 2,517
This seems fine. It'd also be best to decide which translation we're actually using - I linked LuckyEmile's from months ago, and they go very in-depth about the translation.
- 31,459
- 34,319
He was never composite to begin with...
- 31,459
- 34,319
We do, but that's because Super Mario Bros is just on continuity; a loose continuity but still a single continuity. It just means we cannot line up all the games in a specific order and it's often harder to tell which games take place before when, but they're the same continuity. The Super Mario Bros games, Paper Mario games, and the Mario & Luigi games reference each other back to back all the time.
- 31,459
- 34,319
Composite would imply mixing multiple continuities into one, meaning merging comic versions, movie versions, cartoons versions ect with the games. We Don't do that. We only include the games which are canon. And Mario and Paper Mario seen throughout the mainline Paper Mario series are the exact same character.
- 15,441
- 5,031
He most likely means having different keys or stats for each sub-series Mario has as they all don't portray his stats the same way to a drastic degree, but the same can't be said when only looking at each sub-series in a vacuum. In any case, it wouldn't be in this thread.
- 15,441
- 5,031
I and likely others are waiting for that blog I asked for. As I see it, there vasically are like 15 points to go over here and if I go over why 1 is wrong then others will bring up the others to support it, or disagree while they don't mention how they use the other points to support their logic. All the information needs to be seen at once.
- 471
- 95
hey did some research and the translations in Japanese for Kingdom and World are the same thing I think
- 17,375
- 12,855
What's the word?
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
