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Attempting to debunk Super Mario 64 power star (yet again!)

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Eficiente said:
I and likely others are waiting for that blog I asked for. As I see it, there vasically are like 15 points to go over here and if I go over why 1 is wrong then others will bring up the others to support it, or disagree while they don't mention how they use the other points to support their logic. All the information needs to be seen at once.
Click to expand...
Okay. Is somebody willing to help out with this please?
 
I don't know if I can help much with that. I can maybe try to find every Japanese official source that explains the plot but I can't provide every possible translation.

Also please don't propose a "decomposite" anyone.
 
Though honestly at this point I'm fine with Mario's current ratings to just get yeeted. No more cosmic feats at all. Grand Star could maybe get "possibly Tier 4" at best and the rest of everything is downgraded to whatever the next tier is. Some people have said 7/6 but there's problems with a lot of feats and calcs there too. More reliable feats and calcs should be gathered for support.

Also worth noting previous threads suggested guides were unreliable and only direct statements from the games should be used. Therefore Efi's suggestion would go against the agreements made in previous threads. If guides become reliable again and used for arguments then we would circle back to the other threads that tried upgrading the verse because of them
 
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Fox: Would you be willing to explain the arguments here in an easy to understand manner, so I can ask some staff members to evaluate them, please?
 
Uh, basically, Bowser had to have created the worlds in the Castle because he has his own world there, which would make no sense to exist prior to the events of the game. This supports the Power Stars creating Worlds which corroborates the official translation. The timeframe can be short enough for the feat to be used as well.

The opposite side says that these paintings worlds always existed prior to the game because they have their own histories with NPCs who are allied with you, and that some translations only say Bowser would make a monster army to rule the lands with the Power Stars.

However, creating a world with histories can be done via creating their space-time as well, and people who only want to use the monster country/land translation should stick with that and not acknowledge the fact he does create a world, as acknowledging he does create one goes against their entire argument in the first place and is nowhere said with the translations they use. To acknowledge creation of any world is to acknowledge and support the official translation in the English version that says he can create worlds.

The only wrench in this is Throwback Galaxy which is basically a remodeled Whomp's Fortress. But people could argue this shows that these are places in the universe that the paintings take you to and not worlds created by Bowser.

But given the vague nature of 64 and it's multiple translations I suppose this could be the exception to the rule where we allow secondary sources to fully judge a rating. I'll try and find as many as I can.
 
FINALLY, SOMEONE RESPONDED TO THIS.
Ok so basically we see in other games that the paintings leading to those worlds no longer are there, meaning one of two things.
  1. Bowser created them and when defeated, the painting worlds disappeared and became regular paintings. At which point either they renovated the rooms to get rid of them (might just be a design oversight in Odyssey) and threw out the paintings, or the paintings were never regular paintings and kinda just disappeared.
  2. The worlds remained there, but they were just gotten rid of somehow.
Evidence to support the theory that Bowser made the painting worlds:
  • That one Galaxy in super mario galaxy which looks almost exactly like Whomp’s Fortress, or at least based off of it. However, it could be possible Bowser made the Fortress in 64, put King Whomp there, and reused the design in the galaxy.
  • The paintings in Mario Odyssey that lead to boss fights, which are (mostly) Bowser’s minions. Also the paintings that lead to different kingdoms may be made by Bowser to quickly let his minions get to different kingdoms, and in some cases be picked up by the ship. this is most likely how the Broodals get back to their ship after you defeat them.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Uh, basically, Bowser had to have created the worlds in the Castle because he has his own world there, which would make no sense to exist prior to the events of the game. This supports the Power Stars creating Worlds which corroborates the official translation. The timeframe can be short enough for the feat to be used as well.

The opposite side says that these paintings worlds always existed prior to the game because they have their own histories with NPCs who are allied with you, and that some translations only say Bowser would make a monster army to rule the lands with the Power Stars.

However, creating a world with histories can be done via creating their space-time as well, and people who only want to use the monster country/land translation should stick with that and not acknowledge the fact he does create a world, as acknowledging he does create one goes against their entire argument in the first place and is nowhere said with the translations they use. To acknowledge creation of any world is to acknowledge and support the official translation in the English version that says he can create worlds.

The only wrench in this is Throwback Galaxy which is basically a remodeled Whomp's Fortress. But people could argue this shows that these are places in the universe that the paintings take you to and not worlds created by Bowser.

But given the vague nature of 64 and it's multiple translations I suppose this could be the exception to the rule where we allow secondary sources to fully judge a rating. I'll try and find as many as I can.
Click to expand...
VegetaFan756 said:
FINALLY, SOMEONE RESPONDED TO THIS.
Ok so basically we see in other games that the paintings leading to those worlds no longer are there, meaning one of two things.
  1. Bowser created them and when defeated, the painting worlds disappeared and became regular paintings. At which point either they renovated the rooms to get rid of them (might just be a design oversight in Odyssey) and threw out the paintings, or the paintings were never regular paintings and kinda just disappeared.
  2. The worlds remained there, but they were just gotten rid of somehow.
Evidence to support the theory that Bowser made the painting worlds:
  • That one Galaxy in super mario galaxy which looks almost exactly like Whomp’s Fortress, or at least based off of it. However, it could be possible Bowser made the Fortress in 64, put King Whomp there, and reused the design in the galaxy.
  • The paintings in Mario Odyssey that lead to boss fights, which are (mostly) Bowser’s minions. Also the paintings that lead to different kingdoms may be made by Bowser to quickly let his minions get to different kingdoms, and in some cases be picked up by the ship. this is most likely how the Broodals get back to their ship after you defeat them.
Click to expand...
@CrimsonStarFallen @GyroNutz @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @AKM sama @Dino_Ranger_Black @Crazylatin77 @Starter_Pack @Psychomaster35 @ElixirBlue

What do you think about this?
 
Staff after getting called to another mario nerf thread for the 234093583th time this year(s)
giphy.gif
 
Arceus0x said:
Staff after getting called to another mario nerf thread for the 234093583th time this year(s)
giphy.gif
Click to expand...
It might be annoying but a lot of the discussions were worth having for the most part. There's gonna be even more to come in the future from me, though the one I'm planning may be super controversial as it's a HUGE nerf to the 2-Bs, but if we want to acknowledge the original Japanese versions and what they use it's necessary.
 
The multiverse cosmology thing is derailment, but we already had too many discussions. But biggest one is the use of the word "Universe" is often flexible and it's far too common for multiverses to be called universes even if acknowledging the existence of many timelines. It's often use as a synonym of "Verse". Not to mention, World 4 of SPM alone has multiple Universal statements, with the other realms being parallel to it. And the Ancient's entire backstory mentions them creating Countless/Endless number of alternate dimensions depending on translations.

Some arguments about dream scaling are worth discussing on another thread even if overdone, but SPM's god tiers should definitely stay 2-B.
 
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As you've said, it's derailment so I won't comment further. But I will say that I believe there's much more to my argument which I'll make clear when the thread is made.

As for this one:




People can make their own translations if they want. But I think it's pretty clear for JPN that Bowser didn't create these worlds at this point.

BTW the first link is fine it just looks kinda messed up but for me at least it leads me to the right place.
 
I assume the imgur album worked too.

But that's two sources so far that say the same thing and mention nothing that would support creation of the worlds
 
It links to "imgur.com/a/483hnyt#w20ymA0", you have to remove the "#w20ymA0" part.

Clear as water, nice work. The kanjis are: "*3Dスティック内部に液体や異物を入れないでください。故障の原因となります。もし誤って入った場合は、最りの「お客様ご相窓口」、またはお買い上げ店にご相談ください。
*3Dスティックの使用方法については、操作説明のページおよび付属の操作一覧表をご覧ください。
2"
"ストーリー(今度のお話)
やっぱり、またまたピーチ姫はさらわれてしまうのだろうか?
マリオとクッパの宿命の対決に終わりはない・･･?
『お遊びに来ませんか?ケーキを焼いて持ってます』
「Wow、ピーチからの状だっすぐ行くよ、待ってておくれ!」
キノコのお返験・ピーチから手紙をもらったマリオはび。めいっぱいのオシャレをして、さっそく出かけていきました。
「ん?お城の様子が何だかヘンだぞ。ミョ~にがまりかえってる」
イヤな予感をふりはらい、ひっそりとしたお城に足を踏み入れてみると、

『誰もいません、とっととお帰りを。ガハハハッ!』
どこからともなく乱暴なことばが響いてきました。
「誰だ!?でもこの声、どこかで聞いたことあるような…」
マリオはお城のあちこちを探り始めました。ほとんどのドアにカギがかかっていましたが、あいている部屋を見つけて
中をのぞいてみると、見たこともないような大きな絵が掛かっています。そしてその絵の奥の方から、ふしぎな音が聞こ
えてくるのです。
4"
"「誰かが呼んでいるがする。きっと何かがあるはずだ!」
一か八か、マリオは絵に向かって飛び込みました。するとどうでしょう、そこには別の世界が広がっていたのです!
だいぼうけんはいい
さあ、大冒険の始まりです!
絵の中では、ボム兵たちが戦闘のまっ最中。赤いボム兵の話では、突然攻めてきた怪物がお城を守るちからの素「パワースター」を大量に奪い取り、キノコ城を自分のものにしようとしているそうで、そいつは絵の世界の住人たちをも怪物に仕立てあげるつもりだとか。このままほうっておいたら怪物たちが、絵の中からぞくぞくとあふれ出てくるらしいのです。
『やっぱりこれは、クッパのしわざだ!』
ピーチ姫やキノピオたちも、クッパが絵の中に連れ去ったに違いありません。いっこくも早くパワースターを取り返さ
ないと、この世界はクッパ軍団のもの
になってしまいます。
「クッパの思い通りにさせてたまるか!」

響われたパワースターは、絵の世界のさまざまな場所に隠されています。知恵と力をフルに使って取り戻し、キノコ城に平和をよみがえらせてください。

マリオ、たよりになるのはキミしかいない。
5"

Please paste them into the image, and add the original Jap. name of the guide on top of it all.
 
For translations, I believe they can help. They did visit the forum at some point.
 
If the translation is consistent and they make no mention of creation of the worlds with both of them then it would seem to me that creation of the worlds would be the inconsistent interpretation and need to be removed.
 
Are there any other active members here who know Japanese?
 
Eficiente said:
It links to "imgur.com/a/483hnyt#w20ymA0", you have to remove the "#w20ymA0" part.

[Japanese text]

Please paste them into the image, and add the original Jap. name of the guide on top of it all.
Click to expand...
Will Princess Peach be kidnapped again?

Is there no end to Mario and Bowser’s feud...?

“Why don't you come visit us at the castle? I'll bake a cake and wait for you.”

“Wow, an invitation from Peach! I'll be right there, just wait for me!”

Mario was overjoyed to receive a letter from Peach, the princess of the Mushroom Kingdom. He was so happy that he dressed up as neatly as possible and went out immediately to Castle Toadstool.

“What's wrong with the castle? It's so quiet...”

He shook off his dread and stepped into the quiet castle.

“There's no one here, so you'd better go home. Gahahahaha!”

The aggressive words came out of nowhere.

"Who is it? But I've heard that voice before..."

Mario began to search everywhere in the castle. Most of the doors were locked, but when he found an open room, he looked inside and saw a large painting that he had never seen before. Then, he heard a strange sound coming from the painting…

“I hear someone calling. There's got to be a secret!”

Then and there, Mario dove into the painting to find himself in a whole new world!

And so, the great adventure begins!

In the painting, he saw several Bob-ombs in battle. According to the red Bob-omb, a monster suddenly attacked the castle and stole a truckload of Power Stars, the source of power to protect the castle, and is trying to take Castle Toadstool for himself.

“I knew this was Bowser's work!”

Bowser must have taken Princess Peach, Toad, and the others into the paintings, and if we don't get the Power Star back soon, the world will belong to Bowser's army.

“I can't let Bowser have his way!”

The stolen Power Stars are hidden all over the painting worlds. Use all your wits and strength to get them back and bring peace back to Castle Toadstool.

Mario, it’s all up to you now.

We're back! Sorry for the long absence. We've been grinding for some translation commissions while we TL our first manga project.
 
Eficiente said:
Please paste them into the image, and add the original Jap. name of the guide on top of it all.
Click to expand...
Reminder, original Jap. name of the guide, kanjis for anyone to try their own take, and our translation should all be in the same image like this. (We may need to create standards in the future, I've seen notable profiles lacking in this aspect.)

Also to state the obvious, a character from the painting world having witnessed how Bowser suddenly attacked the castle, stole a truckload of Power Stars and stuff makes clear he didn't create those worlds.
 
Another one bites the dust.
Since the original canon (Japanese) doesn't support the feats of making the realms or even expanding them to encompass the real world, then I'll have to agree with the OP.
 
3 agreements so far. Anyone else would like to provide input? I want to assume eficiente also agrees with the OP but we'd need to hear it from their mouth to count it
 
So did the translation support that Bowser did not create the painting worlds, and if so, how does this affect the statistics for the Mario characters?

Should somebody post the translation and the original Japanese text in a blog post that we can link to in Bowser's profile page for evidence?
 
We have proof the paintings are legit alternate "worlds", unknown whether they're pocket realities or universes. But the Japanese text seems to lack details on Bowser actually creating them as opposed to reality warping them. And it does still say, "He will conquer the world" but that's not an AP feat similar to Genghis Kahn conquering most of the known world is not a Multi-Continent level feat.

So it seems removal of the Super Mario 64 feats seems fine, the ratings on where they and up are being discussed on the Super Mario Galaxy thread.
 
Okay. That is probably fine to apply then. Thank you for helping out.
 
Antvasima said:
Should somebody post the translation and the original Japanese text in a blog post that we can link to in Bowser's profile page for evidence?
Click to expand...
So, should a link to such a blog post be added to Bowser's footnotes section?
 
Just to get this out of the way, yes, I do believe that Bowser did create the Bowser levels (and possibly Big Boo's Haunt if you want to argue). Does that mean to me that Bowser created the other worlds and the Bowser levels are 4-A in size? NO and NO!! Just because Bowser created 3 (or 4) of the levels does not invalidate my argument that he didn't create the rest of them, they still have their own histories and the Japanese text supports more of conquering than creating the worlds, and what fallacy is saying that they are 4-A in size? That's basically a waste of space on Bowser's part if you ask me, and looking at the backgrounds of these levels I don't see any stars at all! Also we don't know how many Power Stars Bowser used to create these four levels or the timeframe in which he created them. Like it takes collecting 8 power stars in the original 64 to access the "Bowser in the Dark World" level, but what's the timeframe to collect all those stars?
 
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