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Attempting to debunk Super Mario 64 power star (yet again!)

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I'm not enforcing anything, but "Having history" isn't evidence against creation since it just means that the spacetime of the worlds was also created and everyone having pre-created memories in all that. Occam's Razor has already been a thing commonly dismissed by DontTalkDT, also, Bowser doesn't always think things through could be the simple reason for why he created minions against him. He's not the only Nintendo or Mario villain especially who does this; coughs coughs Shadow Queen.

Again, I'm not full sold on those being creations and wouldn't mind if 4-A ratings got replaced with High 4-C to 3-C ratings and what not. But I'd still prefer to wait for Dino.
 
I agree, but the problem is that Dino has not visited this forum for 3 months.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
"Having history" isn't evidence against creation since it just means that the spacetime of the worlds was also created and everyone having pre-created memories in all that
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Alien X has an intelligence of Nigh-Omnicience, and we did see him do this feat, so at least I can believe that he can create a spacetime with people have pre-created memories. As for Bowser though, as you can tell by now I have doubts about him:



Even though Bowser is currently marked as Extraordinary Genius, from reading his profile, it really seem out of his realm to be able to create spacetimes with fabricated histories, hell he wasn't even aware of over power stars in 64
 
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Can somebody remind me about the suggested changes here please?
 
Hagane_no_Saiyajin said:
Even though Bowser is currently marked as Extraordinary Genius, from reading his profile, it really seem out of him realm to be able to create spacetimes with fabricated histories, hell he wasn't even aware of over power stars in 64
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Bowser doesn't have to have created the history of the worlds, he could have created the space-time of these worlds and let them develop from there. The manual also supports the idea that these worlds are separate space-times and that they were created in the first place.

Also, I seem to recall that this was already translated and resolved in that last Power Stars CRT?
 
GyroNutz said:
he could have created the space-time of these worlds and let them develop from there
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That's making some stretches in logic, just using the official localization, we don't know how Bowser went about creating these worlds in the first place
GyroNutz said:
Also, I seem to recall that this was already...resolved in that last Power Stars CRT?
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Was it really? All I can remember was it becoming a big toxic mess of thread

 
I remember us settling on the feat being able to stay.

I will say real quick though that Mario is usually very consistent with what "world" means when being accessed through a portal. I know people use the lands that are called "worlds" to justify worlds being used inconsistently but there's barely any in-universe acknowledgement of this. People have the Star Select screens and guidebooks that call the levels worlds as the only evidence but anything story related and that's accessed via portals is always compared to and often is of a similar size to the main universe.

This being said, I remember people bringing up that we don't know if a single Power Star was used for this feat or hundreds. It's entirely vague and based on a statement of creation. Bowser had access to at least 70-80 Power Stars and one of them was a bigger variant (likely more powerful too since it's able to keep Bowser on par with a 70-80 Power Star Mario unless Bowser simply was holding back the whole time) before Mario even enters the castle. Granted the manuals use Power Stars plural. So the regular Power Stars definitely added to the power needed. But by how much? Can we reasonably say?

I guess the big one is equal to around 70-80 Power Stars so we can assume they scale to 1/80th of the feat at worst. Not sure what tier that'd be.
 
Like usual with Mario threads no consensus has been reached.

Though the OP's proposal is completely removing the Power Star's 4-A rating altogether because the creation feat is pretty vague and has multiple different translations with an unspecified timeframe to boot.

The counter is that we use 3D All Stars as the most recent one which does support it. I don't know if anyone's said anything about how a timeframe isn't specified.
 
Okay. Thank you for the summary.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
I remember us settling on the feat being able to stay.

I will say real quick though that Mario is usually very consistent with what "world" means when being accessed through a portal. I know people use the lands that are called "worlds" to justify worlds being used inconsistently but there's barely any in-universe acknowledgement of this. People have the Star Select screens and guidebooks that call the levels worlds as the only evidence but anything story related and that's accessed via portals is always compared to and often is of a similar size to the main universe.

This being said, I remember people bringing up that we don't know if a single Power Star was used for this feat or hundreds. It's entirely vague and based on a statement of creation. Bowser had access to at least 70-80 Power Stars and one of them was a bigger variant (likely more powerful too since it's able to keep Bowser on par with a 70-80 Power Star Mario unless Bowser simply was holding back the whole time) before Mario even enters the castle. Granted the manuals use Power Stars plural. So the regular Power Stars definitely added to the power needed. But by how much? Can we reasonably say?

I guess the big one is equal to around 70-80 Power Stars so we can assume they scale to 1/80th of the feat at worst. Not sure what tier that'd be.
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At least this guy gets what I mean by Occum’s Razor
 
I personally find the argument of using 3D All Stars to be faulty because at the end of the day, it’s a glorified port of the original N64 game and I’m sure the localizers just reused the old translation
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
If we don't know a timeframe and no one can come up with one then won't the feat be unable to be used?
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Yeah, our rules say so.

Lastly, the creation of the object(s) in question needs to happen within a reasonably short timeframe for the whole result to apply to the Attack Potency. - Creation Feats
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So are we going for pure 3-C Mario and co.? I never understood the 4-A low end for Power Stars. I don’t think it’s ever stated they vary.
 
Won't be surprised if people try and nuke 3-C too but yes that would be what we go with I'd like to think. At least for the time being.
 
I'd like to separate 64's Power Stars from Galaxy's Power Stars since even though they have the same name, the lore surrounding them is completely different
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Nah. There's no reason to do that. They function the same. They power things and amp people. I don't see how they're different enough to warrant that
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Did Rosalina have any knowledge of Power Stars in 64 though? I reckon no!

Edit: Just to juxtapose (is that correct) why do we get such a big lore dump on Power Stars in Galaxy but not in 64? Mario games are practically self contained stories and Nintendo has not really been known to expand upon Mario lore inbetween games. Plus, if they were the same, then why didn't Rosalina use them for the Comet Observatory?
 
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Rosalina DOES use the Power Stars and Grand Stars. They power her ship only though. But there's literally no difference between Power Stars in 64 and Galaxy. I don't see what's making them so different.

We should just stick to removing the 4-A as the main argument. Personally I think we should unless other evidence gets brought up. So we should probably starts adding up the agreements for removing 4-A to hopefully get this CRT over with quicker.
 
They're the same. The lore says that Star Bits become Power Stars and we are shown Toads celebrating with it.

But again this doesn't matter. Let's drop that. Who's in favor of removing 4-A?
 
Foxthefox1000: Can you explain what we currently need to evaluate here please?
 
Basically, this feat would be fine in theory if we have a provable timeframe for when it was done. As per the standards we can't have it listed as a feat if the timeframe is unspecified.

The best timeframe we can potentially infer is the time between the letter Peach sent out and how long it took Mario to get to the castle, which again, is unknown. All we can make are assumptions.

The ONLY potential argument I can see via statements in game is the fact the Toad says "he's using the Power Stars" which "using" being present tense means he's still doing it which would make the timeframe narrow down to maybe around a few hours at most. I dunno if that would make it able to qualify.
 
How else would he create them? He used the Power Stars rather explicitly. They are magical objects that grant Star Power. Why else would he use these if not to access their power in order to create these worlds?
 
Very simple. The worlds already existed, which is already proven by the first one. Bowser used the Power Stars to either create monsters or gain allies that were already there, or both.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Anyways, I already agree we can remove the feat unless someone gives us a good timeframe
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The minimum timeframe that we could consider is the amount of time it'd take for Mario to receive Princess Peach's letter - we know that Mario travelled to the castle straight away via warp pipe. The official player's guide implies that the timeframe is even less than that: "He had been invited to the castle for a piece of cake, which Peach had just baked". Peach obviously wouldn't have been trapped in a painting world if she was able to bake cakes and send letters to Mario, and Bowser obviously wouldn't have allowed the letter to have been sent if he knew about it.
 
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