Attempting to debunk Super Mario 64 power star (yet again!)

[Foxthefox1000]

I dunno. There's still a good amount of time there. So Peach bakes a cake, sends the letter, Mario receives it and then heads out, and that's it. The time from when Peach sent the letter to when Mario arrives is when Bowser would have done this. But that's still unspecified. How long does the letter take to reach Mario? Where is his residence in relation to the Castle? Where would the other end of that Pipe he comes out of be?

And again, the Toad says in present tense that Bowser is using the Power Stars to create worlds as in still currently doing so as he and Mario talk. Though granted, there also is the dialogue that Toads apparently see Bowser rush past them to head to the next area, so this all being premeditated and done before Mario arrives is likely untrue as those claims imply Bowser is acting on the fly.

I still am unsure what timeframe would be needed for the feat to be allowed

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Practically any timeframe would be headcanon, so it's pretty much useless to try and drum up one

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, all it really took was timeframe between Peach sending him the letter after a cake just baked and Mario reading the letter and arriving shortly after. And the delivery would have to be minutes at most, and using watts to divide seconds in an hour would still make the feat 4-A.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Medeus.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

@DarkDragonMedeus that’s still relying on headcanon to come up with a timeframe



Edit: And I keep saying that the statement that we are relying on it is vague on the details on how Bowser is creating the 'worlds', no to mention that if you leave it out of the dialogue, it doesn't affect the game at all.

If you just have toad say 'I Bowser took the Power Stars and went into the paintings with them! You need to get them back!' you woud still have the same affect.

Plus can we really trust Toad at his word? It could be that in his perspective that Bowser is creating worlds inside the paintings when Bowser is doing something else.

Also, in a previous CRT it was said that it does not make sense for Bowser to be creating worlds in the paintings since why would you take over something that you already created (I'm still trying to find the exact quote BTW)

Also also, worlds in Mario are clearly defined as areas for which levels take place in and not like these large realms.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

First of all, "worlds" can vary in Mario. But almost every instance of traveling to another world via portal or warping is treated as a separate world. There's also contextual support directly comparing and contrasting these worlds to Mario's World, the main universe or just planet. They have their own Sun and stars in the night sky implying a day and night cycle as well. The levels seeming small shouldn't be used against them because even the actual lands in Mario games have been separated into small sections of floating land on many occasions in gameplay.

Granted there's support from Japanese texts that support the idea these paintings are all connected as one big world and call it "The Painting World". If Bowser created this world then why would he still be using the Power Stars in it's creation? To expand it? The guides do support that line of thinking, but we've had issues with using guides as support in the past apparently. However, if we do use those since they support that argument, then his Painting World would eventually leak into reality.

Though it being one World makes the support for the worlds having been created already and with their own histories via how space-time works kinda hard to argue for since Bowser would still actively be expanding and adding to this realm he's created, making it weird there are inhabitants that oppose Bowser if he also created them too.

64 is such a vague game with multiple different interpretations and iterations of the text used to support the rating we give it. It's just one big confusing mess.

So yeah I'm still unsure.

 

[Antvasima]

intanc of rrvaeli
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?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't see how a timeframe is headcanon when Mario's house is canonically fairly close to Peach's castle. And it's not like the delivery Toad or Paratroopa is slower than a snail, especially if letters from Peach to Mario are consistently seen as urgent. If Bowser was able to conquer Peach's castle and create all those painting worlds in the time it took for a simple letter to reach Mario, it most have been very short. This isn't headcanon but common sense.

And I otherwise think Fox is making more sense here on the rest.

 

[Antvasima]

I have a hard time remembering all of the arguments here, but Medeus and Fox seem to make sense at least.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

The guides do support that line of thinking

The english guides though, someone still needs to try getting out the Japanese guides

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I apologize for the misspellings. Mobile sometimes messes up what I intend to say with autocorrect where I press it thinking it corrected but it leaves the garbled mess instead.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The english guides though, someone still needs to try getting out the Japanese guides

Iirc there are statements from Japanese texts that kinda say similar stuff to what the guides have said. The "a whole new world appeared" line when Mario enters the Battlefield exists there too. I'd have to find them again but it's all pretty similar to English

 

[Antvasima]

I apologize for the misspellings. Mobile sometimes messes up what I intend to say with autocorrect where I press it thinking it corrected but it leaves the garbled mess instead.

No problem, but you should preferably correct the spellings in the post in question.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Iirc there are statements from Japanese texts that kinda say similar stuff to what the guides have said. The "a whole new world appeared" line when Mario enters the Battlefield exists there too. I'd have to find them again but it's all pretty similar to English

Or rather I would if guides mattered anymore. Gotta avoid them like the plague now.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Me too!

Primary source >>> Secondary source

And what I'm trying to do with the thread is show that not only is the localization is vague with what it says but also that it's original text does not agree with the localization

(Who wants to to declare war on VS Battles only using official English localizations?)

 

[Antvasima]

Not me. Also, we aren't absolutists in that regard. We just don't take unproven fan translators as automatic gospel in comparison.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

We just don't take unproven fan translators as automatic gospel in comparison

Still, I've shown on this thread different parts of the original phrase that disagree with the localization, are you still disagreeing with me? Go onto Jisho! I'll even break down the original phrase to just it's words/components!

"クッパはパワースターをつかって『かべ』や『え』 のなかにカイブツのくにをつくろうとしています。 スターをとりかえして"

クッパ - Koopa/Bowser

は - Particle that marks the topic of a sentence

パワースター - Power Star

を - Particle that marks the object of the verb

つかって - Inflection of 'つかる' (to immerged/to be submerged/to be soaked)

『かべ』- wall

や - Particle that links two or more items in a list (but implies that the list may be incomplete, or that the things listed could perhaps be examples)

『え』- Painting

の - Particle that is used to indicate 'of'

なか - inside

に - Particle that marks the person or thing that receives the object

カイブツ - Monster

の - Particle that is used to indicate possession

くに - nation/state

を - Particle that marks the object of the verb

つくろうとしています。- volationation form of 'つくる' (to make/create) + 'としている' which means 'to try'

スター - Star

を - Particle that marks the object of the verb

とりかえして - Inflection of 'とりかえす' (to get back/to regain/to recover)

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Is this from 64 or DS? I remember there being a difference.

Though Bowser can still create "a monster nation" and it be the size of the worlds in the paintings. The translations don't conflict with each other because they can both exist in a vacuum and be true.

Given canon there's no reason for Bowser to need Power Stars to conquer a land/nation. He already creates that shit on a daily basis. But him creating the lands they walk on is definitely beyond normal, which justifies using the Power Stars at all. He also already has a massive army and these levels are apparently small according to the opposers so why even use the Power Stars when that feat is easily accomplished without them. These are the same forces that spread throughout the universe in a short timeframe.

 

[TMaakkonen]

OP's images are clearly from 64. DS uses different model from OP's pics.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Then why are people saying 3D All-Stars supports it? Isn't that the same version as 64? Another example of English version taking precedence?

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Then why are people saying 3D All-Stars supports it? Isn't that the same version as 64? Another example of English version taking precedence?

I personally find the argument of using 3D All Stars to be faulty because at the end of the day, it’s a glorified port of the original N64 game and I’m sure the localizers just reused the original translation

 

[Foxthefox1000]

We really gotta figure out which versions we consider fact and usable. People seem to switch constantly on both sides.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

We really gotta figure out which versions we consider fact and usable.

Simple, the original Japanese version!

 

[Foxthefox1000]

You say that but then a lot of the justifications and arguments from previous threads utilize the English version a lot, whether for or against certain things. If we truly want to stick to the Japanese versions then we should make the relevant revisions of the Japanese sources to keep the profiles as accurate as they can be.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I agree with you!

We shouldn't be lazy and just only use the localizations of another language. I think from now on, at least I will take the effort to break down sentences to make it easy for the wiki to understand instead of asking r/translator or r/askJapan

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I think Japanese SPM only ever refers to the entire universe and world as a whole so I'm not sure if 2-B would still work there. Maybe. It's a huge game with tons of text so that would be harder to tackle.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

It's a huge game with tons of text so that would be harder to tackle.

The effort is worth it though

 

[Foxthefox1000]

And I've also shown the Japanese text from Dream Team doesn't support 2-B either for that game. There's still support for 2-C Dreams in general though, but the justifications and reasonings would need to change.

But yeah anyways we should probably ask for more opinions on this topic as it's not enough support for anything noteworthy to be done. Some also disagree too.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @Dino_Ranger_Black @DarkDragonMedeus @Crazylatin77 @Starter_Pack @Psychomaster35 @GyroNutz @ElixirBlue

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Eficiente]

A blog putting up the Jap. text translated, the english take, and their differences in relation to what we make of the feat, in all versions, as well as what other sources say about the feat like guides and a note of which Jap. guides we lack to take info from.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

We should also discuss what the cast will be rated as if this does go through. And what tier the Power Stars would fall down to as well unless we just rate them as downscaling from 3-C. Remember Base scales to the Power Stars for this feat but if this feat goes away then Base no longer have any ratings beyond being scaled to 3-C.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I'm just wondering if I should rename the the thread to 'Crash course in breaking down sentences in X language'

 

[LordNidhoggr]

I know I'm not an expert, but I thought I'd weigh in on a couple of things that stood out to me.

First, whether Bowser created or just manipulated the painting worlds. Honestly...to me, it makes more sense if he created them. My reasoning is that if he didn't, that means there were living painting worlds already in Peach's castle, which seems odd. I think the power stars are the mechanism that grants life to the paintings, which would mean they should have already been there inside the paintings when Bowser came along. I would then bring up the question of why Rosalina didn't use said stars in Galaxy if they're supposed to be the same, and this has an easy answer: she'd have to destroy the painting worlds to take the stars. Even when Mario gathers them, the stars are clearly still tied to the paintings, as the "phantom" blue stars indicate. But what about the history of the worlds? Well, that can be explained by their very nature: they're paintings, they had intent and creative energy infused into their very making. That's just my take, mind, but I guess I don't see pre-existing worlds as more logical than creating worlds with the introduction of power stars.

As for the ideas on translation, I have to say I favor official translations/localizations over internet forum translations. It's nothing against the people who translate that, or because I want Mario to have better feats, it's just more consistent to me. How do you verify one translation over another? Without deferring to the official versions, you'd have to either get some kind of consensus, preferably a unanimous one among everyone who attempts to translate a given passage, and you'd have to use the same sources for every bit of translation from that language to be consistent. I am fully aware that this means some older pieces of media are stuck with bad localizations, but if - especially if - a game has re-released localizations, like Mario 64, then we can assume the localizations meet a standard of quality I don't know that we could reliably get from just random people online (helpful as they may be). It just strikes me that a direct translation taken totally literally isn't really any better than a translation with approved context and meaning is.

There could be precedent for suggesting changes if there is a huge difference in the wording of the translation and its localization, but that would have to be made on a case by case basis and, in my opinion, the difference between "setting up kingdoms" and "creating kingdoms/worlds" isn't really a gigantic leap.

That's just my two cents.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I know I'm not an expert, but I thought I'd weigh in on a couple of things that stood out to me.

First, whether Bowser created or just manipulated the painting worlds. Honestly...to me, it makes more sense if he created them. My reasoning is that if he didn't, that means there were living painting worlds already in Peach's castle, which seems odd. I think the power stars are the mechanism that grants life to the paintings, which would mean they should have already been there inside the paintings when Bowser came along. I would then bring up the question of why Rosalina didn't use said stars in Galaxy if they're supposed to be the same, and this has an easy answer: she'd have to destroy the painting worlds to take the stars. Even when Mario gathers them, the stars are clearly still tied to the paintings, as the "phantom" blue stars indicate. But what about the history of the worlds? Well, that can be explained by their very nature: they're paintings, they had intent and creative energy infused into their very making. That's just my take, mind, but I guess I don't see pre-existing worlds as more logical than creating worlds with the introduction of power stars.

As for the ideas on translation, I have to say I favor official translations/localizations over internet forum translations. It's nothing against the people who translate that, or because I want Mario to have better feats, it's just more consistent to me. How do you verify one translation over another? Without deferring to the official versions, you'd have to either get some kind of consensus, preferably a unanimous one among everyone who attempts to translate a given passage, and you'd have to use the same sources for every bit of translation from that language to be consistent. I am fully aware that this means some older pieces of media are stuck with bad localizations, but if - especially if - a game has re-released localizations, like Mario 64, then we can assume the localizations meet a standard of quality I don't know that we could reliably get from just random people online (helpful as they may be). It just strikes me that a direct translation taken totally literally isn't really any better than a translation with approved context and meaning is.

There could be precedent for suggesting changes if there is a huge difference in the wording of the translation and its localization, but that would have to be made on a case by case basis and, in my opinion, the difference between "setting up kingdoms" and "creating kingdoms/worlds" isn't really a gigantic leap.

That's just my two cents.

This is more or less what I believe as well.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

How do you verify one translation over another?

By breaking the original language's sentence down!! It's not that hard to do!!

Edit: Also, any explainations of how Bowser created the painting worlds have, at least to me, been headcanon-y or jumping through loopholes. We also don't have an accurate timeframe after all

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

@LordNidhoggr

Go onto Jisho! I'll even break down the original phrase to just it's words/components!

"クッパはパワースターをつかって『かべ』や『え』 のなかにカイブツのくにをつくろうとしています。 スターをとりかえして"

クッパ - Koopa/Bowser

は - Particle that marks the topic of a sentence

パワースター - Power Star

を - Particle that marks the object of the verb

つかって - Inflection of 'つかる' (to immerged/to be submerged/to be soaked)

『かべ』- wall

や - Particle that links two or more items in a list (but implies that the list may be incomplete, or that the things listed could perhaps be examples)

『え』- Painting

の - Particle that is used to indicate 'of'

なか - inside

に - Particle that marks the person or thing that receives the object

カイブツ - Monster

の - Particle that is used to indicate possession

くに - nation/state

を - Particle that marks the object of the verb

つくろうとしています。- volationation form of 'つくる' (to make/create) + 'としている' which means 'to try'

スター - Star

を - Particle that marks the object of the verb

とりかえして - Inflection of 'とりかえす' (to get back/to regain/to recover)

 

[Antvasima]

A blog putting up the Jap. text translated, the english take, and their differences in relation to what we make of the feat, in all versions, as well as what other sources say about the feat like guides and a note of which Jap. guides we lack to take info from.

That seems fine to me.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

By breaking the original language's sentence down!! It's not that hard to do!!

Edit: Also, any explainations of how Bowser created the painting worlds have, at least to me, been headcanon-y or jumping through loopholes. We also don't have an accurate timeframe after all

That's the thing though, comparing the exact words with a more contextualized translation is problematic to me. You're comparing a version trying to get an idea across with a version that is taken completely literally. This is arguably the worst-case scenario for trying to do that, too, as the language could be argued to be pretty figurative rather than literal. If we look at the exact wording, doesn't it say Bowser "fixes" monster kingdoms using power stars? I just have to side with official, approved translation over trying to interpret a language I don't speak or read. But if people have problems that can only be resolved by picking apart exact translations of words, then...well, do that. I just don't think it's as solid a foundation to try to build on.

I'm not trying to give headcanon answers, so I apologize if it comes off that way. But we know Bowser used the power stars to do something to the paintings of Peach's castle thus resulting in the worlds we see. Given that the painting worlds have Bowser's minions basically running them and a variety of obstacles to thwart Mario, even if there were worlds that pre-dated Bowser's meddling, he clearly reconfigured them to a massive degree, probably qualifying as creating the world by any sensible interpretation of that word. Did he make them from scratch? I don't know, but the text implies to me that he brought the power stars to those worlds and re/made them, which is still an impressive feat of creation/reality manipulation.

Maybe the best solution is what Eficiente said: list the differences on the profile and rank the tiers with a Possibly/Likely for the higher-end version.

 

[ElixirBlue]

A blog putting up the Jap. text translated, the english take, and their differences in relation to what we make of the feat, in all versions, as well as what other sources say about the feat like guides and a note of which Jap. guides we lack to take info from.

I agree with Eficiente's suggestion with making a blog about the translations, Eng and Jap. There are other angles about the feat to discuss but even in the Mario CRTs from a year ago, a large amount of the discussion was over the translation and the threads going back and forth on them. Having all Eficiente suggested contained in a single blog, rather than going back and forth on threads, I believe, would help with the discussion on the feat itself.

I'm unable to contribute to the discussion of Official Translation vs Internet Translation, however. It's not in my realm of knowledge.

I do, however, agree Bowser created the worlds in paintings. Mario's canon aside, I don't understand Peach's decision for allowing existing worlds to just hang on her walls like they were ordinary paintings. It seems Peach didn't recognize them as worlds when she placed them, tho, thats just me.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

To be fair, ignoring the creation part entirely Bowser was stated to also be able to manipulate the worlds so that they encompass reality. He also has his own world in the Castle which DEFINITELY wasn't there from the start. There's no reason to assume his world isn't as large as the painting worlds either. But with all this said I think extra context supports the idea that he created worlds with the Stars.