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The forgotten speed of Watagash

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Dagoth_OwO said:
RoF Gohan and Tagoma probably should be corrected since Herms clarified the whole "Tagoma is as strong as Gohan at his peak" stuff
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I think I saw that tweet but I don't remember it very well. Could you post it here?
 
@Antvasima I'm sorry but there is a difference between being impartial/acting as a buffer, and simply always choosing what selective staff want no matter the support or arguments from the other side.

This is not a group of people who have never used the wiki and know little of DB, this is a group mostly composed of individuals knowledgeable about DB, many of which who have been on the site for a long time, know the standards, and are probably the most knowledgeable about DB here. They are people you consider trusted members, even including staff you appointed like @Firestorm808 .

So it's not a popularity contest, it is a strong argument supported 10 to 1 by knowledgeable, long time members, and even some staff consistently over 3 weeks.

Honestly choosing to reject the revision even knowing this would show massive favoritism toward certain staff, and be double standards given many threads are decided by the amount of support for them.
 
Honestly choosing to reject the revision even knowing this would show massive favoritism toward certain staff, and be double standards given many threads are decided by the amount of support for them.
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I can say the same that choosing to accept the revision would be just giving in to appeal to popularity and would show favoritism to verses with a large group of supporters who can just push for whatever change they want with sheer numbers alone irrespective of not having enough evidence, all in hopes of appeasing them. And no, threads are decided by evidences that make sense. Again, this is not a popularity poll.
 
@AKM sama
Actually you can't say the same since this is not a popularity poll with no merit or argument. There is a difference between a popularity contest with just a bunch of people who know little about the arguments or series, and the 10 to 1 overwhelming support of knowledgeable, long term trusted members who objectively know what they are talking about being vastly in favor of a revision, that is from all our perspectives a strong and well thought out argument. Just because you and DDM don't agree with something doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to pass. You are fallible like everybody else.

By your logic you are basically saying nobody except specific staff members have any actual say in what gets passed at the end of the day if 2 staff can reject a legitimate argument supported by over 20 knowledgeable members, and even some other staff, and if that is the model this wiki is run by then I am honestly disheartened and disappointed to hear that it functions like a dictatorship.
 
On one hand, the evidence for it is strong. On the other hand the evidence is not 100%. I'm neutral leaning towards no change because we have many characters who have special traits. One example is that Dyspo is the fastest person in the T.O.P. but not the strongest. Which in hand proves speed doesn't always equal strength. (Burter is another example.)
 
DivineAura44 said:
On one hand, the evidence for it is strong. On the other hand the evidence is not 100%. I'm neutral leaning towards no change because we have many characters who have special traits. One example is that Dyspo is the fastest person in the T.O.P. but not the strongest. Which in hand proves speed doesn't always equal strength. (Burter is another example.)
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The problem is that neither Dyspo, nor Burter, were actually the fastest characters in their respective settings. Both were blitzed by Goku, funny enough.
 
ZERO7772 said:
Dyspo is not the fastest lol. He could not react to UI Goku at all.
All his speed BS is just empty brag and waste of screen time.
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LordTracer said:
Dyspo isn’t even the fastest though. UIO Goku is easily faster than him, as are several other people in the ToP.
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Since when does Speed = Reaction Speed? Even Gohan who should be slower than Hit caught Dyspo off guard, doesn't mean he is faster. And Hit sure as hell ain't faster than Dyspo.
 
Actually Dyspo are not just fast, he could reliably damage SSG Goku, Hit and even Golden Frieza, so while he is special case with exceptional speed, he is not too much that Speed # Power, it just that his speed is slightly higher scaling than his ap. Also UIO 1st time blitz the hell out of him
 
One, it was an example of how speed is not always power. The whole thing this is based off of, how is that derailing? I'd say five people different people arguing the same point stretching the thread would be more of derailing.
Vietthai96 said:
Actually Dyspo are not just fast, he could reliably damage SSG Goku, Hit and even Golden Frieza, so while he is special case with exceptional speed, he is not too much that Speed # Power, it just that his speed is slightly higher scaling than his ap. Also UIO 1st time blitz the hell out of him
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Yes but he should scale even higher.
ZERO7772 said:
UI Goku blitzed Dyspo and then react to his attack casually without even looking. Da heck are you talking about lol.
Dyspo is not faster than Goku or Jiren this is nonsense.
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Once again Reaction Speed / = / Speed.
UchihaSlayer96 said:
As for Burter, he was blitzed so badly by base Goku to the point of him not even realizing that Goku had moved lmao.
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I'm not repeating this phrase again. Reaction Speed / = / Speed.
Dagoth_OwO said:
Golden Frieza was explicitly stated to be faster than Dyspo btw
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"His speed could have taken you both out" - Piccolo telling Gohan how Dyspo could have eliminated him and Frieza off of speed alone.
 
DivineAura44 said:
One, it was an example of how speed is not always power. The whole thing this is based off of, how is that derailing? I'd say five people different people arguing the same point stretching the thread would be more of derailing.

Yes but he should scale even higher.

Once again Reaction Speed / = / Speed.

I'm not repeating this phrase again. Reaction Speed / = / Speed.

"His speed could have taken you both out" - Piccolo telling Gohan how Dyspo could have eliminated him and Frieza off of speed alone.
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Please stop derailing. Again, Dyspo has nothing to do with this thread
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Yes please stop the derailing. Dyspo and Burter has nothing to do with this
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I mean I don't know what can be added more to what is said.

OP has presented some pretty good points and over 20 knowledgeable users about the verse has agreed with him but when 2 mods comes in it's GG.
Ants only respond to this is "we don't do this based on popularity contest"

Which is ridiculous to say the least when Ant himself acknowledged that the OP is making very good sense and he's getting the support of almost every knowledgeable member on the verse but it still won't pass anyway cuz 2 of his staff disagreed "one of them named themselves the sword and shield of the other btw"

I thought that staff's opinion hold more weight, but not to the point of invaliding literally everyone else.

Anyway I am done here.
 
sanicspood said:
imagine arguing dyspo is the fastest in the t.o.p in 2021
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Well the problem is Dyspo also have AP to back up, if he is just all speed, everyone will just ignore him and treat him like an annoying fast bug who blitzing around but can't do anything. But he actually have legit AP to reliably damage people. So the whole point of DivineAura44 using Dyspo as an example of Speed are not always = AP is fall apart, he just have his speed scale slightly to moderately higher than his AP, also when he goes Super Maximum Lightspeed Mode blah blah blah , Dyspo punch and kick could actually content with Golden Frieza's attack who before easily punch him to the ground and no-selling his base form punch in the face, that mean when he increase his speed, his ap also increase.


Alright this is the final derailment, what is the conclusion of this thread
 
SSJRyu1 said:
and if that is the model this wiki is run by then I am honestly disheartened and disappointed to hear that it functions like a dictatorship.
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No because it functions on the basis of facts. Just because 20 people agree on something doesn't mean it's right. That is what's literally appeal to popularity. This whole thread is based on a bunch of assumptions and nothing more. It's not about disagreeing with your interpretation or having a different interpretation. It's about having a lack of evidence to prove a positive. I still don't get why any host should scale to Watagash's base speed and all of your reasons are based on assumptions with no particular basis. And seriously, the only argument you have is "why shouldn't it", for which there are several strong reasons. So obviously this thread has little reason to get accepted.

Now we can obviously talk about the RoF Gohan thing that was brought up earlier.
 
I have to agree with AKM Sama regarding Watagash, breaking the glass jar is not proof if him being anything being too high on tier let alone Tier 4. It's implied he cannot actually kill people through physical strikes alone without a host.

As for the DBS Gohan scaling, I still need to rewatch RoF saga for statements, but there are plenty of foot notes actually. Piccolo and Gohan were even worried about bringing Goten and Trunks despite their fusion making them on par with Super Buu. So I think it goes without saying that Frieza even in his first form is much stronger than Super Buu; makes sense considering his Final Form is 3-A and stronger than Goku was in BoG saga; let alone his Golden form.

Tagoma also was kind of the main reason Frieza got so strong in the first place; he was his sparring partner though mostly punching bag throughout the 4 months; we went from Zarbon tier to Buu saga tier. Shisami also went from Dodoria's level to Buu saga teir at least till he's above base Gohan; no weaker than Shin no less. But focusing primarily on Tagoma, but him taking hits from a casual Frieza was the primary driving force for how both he and Frieza grew so much stronger. Him taking a headbutt from SSJ Gotenks may be a "Gag" but it is still a pretty tight durability feat, and he only got stronger after Ginyu possessed him. Still, there's also the fact that neither Gotenks nor Frieza generated the energy for Goku or Vegeta to sense it, but Gohan did when he got enraged. So he generated more energy than various characters who are superior to Fat Buu in Gotenks case and one who arguably has power level that makes Super Buu's look tame. That's where SSJ Gohan being comparable to Ultimate Gohan comes from, is the consistent gaps of all aforementioned cast. Lastly, there's no reason for u6 saga Piccolo or Gohan to be any weaker than ToP saga humans given Frost considered the humans jokes with pretty much no power, while he sort of struggled against Piccolo.

All I got to say before work. May have more to add.
 
DivineAura44 said:
On one hand, the evidence for it is strong. On the other hand the evidence is not 100%. I'm neutral leaning towards no change because we have many characters who have special traits. One example is that Dyspo is the fastest person in the T.O.P. but not the strongest. Which in hand proves speed doesn't always equal strength. (Burter is another example.)
Click to expand...
Dyspo is the fastest??? Nope
Dyspo Is slower than MUI Goku, Jiren & many others even SSG Goku was kinda easily reacting to his attacks when he Switched to SSB
Burter was blitzed by Goku sorry thus his claims about fastest being was invalid
 
LightReinh12345 said:
Dyspo is the fastest??? Nope
Dyspo Is slower than MUI Goku, Jiren & many others even SSG Goku was kinda easily reacting to his attacks when he Switched to SSB
Burter was blitzed by Goku sorry thus his claims about fastest being was invalid
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Please stop derailing this!

How many more time we need to ask people to stop derailing this thread??? It's NOT ABOUT DYSPO, NOR IT IS ABOUT BURTER

That said, it isn't directed at you @LightReinh12345, so I aplogize if I offended you
 
SSJRyu1 said:
I am honestly disheartened and disappointed to hear that it functions like a dictatorship.
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Look, I and other staff members are constantly working our butts off trying our best to be helpful to the community. That is not exactly tyrannical behaviour.

However, the fundamental structure of our process is that our most trusted and reliable members, which have been made into staff as a consequence, try to evaluate the arguments of the regular members, and I have to trust their abilities to do so, or this community would stop working and really turn into popularity contests, with the fans voting all franchises to turn extremely exaggerated.

Also, isn't it a major overreaction to call this a dictatorship just because you got one revision thread rejected? Other threads of yours have been accepted, and even I have had plenty of my suggestions rejected over the years.
 
The opinions of others do definitely matter, but the staff should ideally take them into account, analyse them, and accept them if they seem to make sense. Then I have to trust them in turn, since I have too many tasks to handle to be able to read everything. This is nothing new. We usually work like this to spread the workload, and I cannot start a civil war among the most helpful staff members over something like this.
 
So what I'm getting is that their opinion matters more than non-staff. Once again I am proposing to make everything staff discussion. I am not dsocking you for taking the side of AKM for the 1,000,000th time, I'm just more disappointed that you are taking sides simply because you trust them. Imagine someone is in an debate and they say "trust me".
 
That is not what I said. I said that regular members need to provide useful information that our staff evaluate, so everything does not end up as popularity contests and/or wars of attrition. That is all. You cannot start to yell "Tyrant!" as soon as things do not always go the way you prefer, just because the staff are trying to do their jobs.
 
Are you gonna really make the claim that you wouldn't side with a staff member vs a non-staff? When that is literally what you are doing when you say "X makes sense" and then telling me you do not have the time to properly evaluate the thread? Also I never called anyone a tyrant. I said I wouldn't call it major literally presuming it is partially exaggeration.
 
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