XSOULOFCINDERX
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Indeed, you are correct.
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The forgotten speed of Watagash
- Thread starter SSJRyu1
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You can find proof in the threads where it was accepted. That's why it is on the page. And I don't think bringing Krillin's example in this is a good analogy because Goku only went SSB to boost up Krillin's morale. Context matters.
Secondly, the power against Buu is only referring to the Ultimate form that Gohan had to unlock again. He is stronger than his Buu saga self in base in RoF, as shown by his feats. Of course, he was not at his full and had room to grow by unlocking his Ultimate, hence why he was still weaker than his full potential.
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@AKM sama
I checked Gohans profile, the only reasoning I found for his pre ToP form having 3-A power is that he sparred with Goku and Piccolo, which in both cases neither party was fighting at max power, the match was ended before it got out of hand, and it is not explicit proof of the claim that Gohan is 3-A. By that logic anybody who fought Goku or Piccolo would be 3-A, which is not sufficient evidence for anybody else by itself. I should reiterate this is before the battle with SSJB Goku and Gohan, that happens after Piccolos training and Watagash events. Not to mention Goku and Piccolo explicitly say later that Gohan is not at the level of power he was against Buu after getting his Mystic amp, so the notion is directly contradicted that Gohan was above his Buu saga self. There is no solid proof he is 3-A from what I see, just scaling to a friendly sparing match.
Prove it is referring explicitly to the Ultimate form. Please show these explicit feats that prove that Gohan is 3-A. They say specifically "Gohan was able to get back his original power", "if you cant even evoke your original strength", "that power you used when you fought Buu, awaken that real you!". They are referring explicitly to the strength, and power he had originally when fighting Buu, it is never stated or implied they were referring only to the Ultimate form itself. Not to mention they say "Gohan, I don't believe that is the extent of your power" when he achieves Ultimate form again, further showing that when they refer to "power", they mean what they say, power, as Gohan is expected to gain more power, not some new form beyond Mystic form. So you really have not provided any evidence for your assertion that they are strictly only referring to the form itself and not his actual power, while I have provided ample evidence they are referring to the literal original power or strength from the Super Buu battle.
I checked Gohans profile, the only reasoning I found for his pre ToP form having 3-A power is that he sparred with Goku and Piccolo, which in both cases neither party was fighting at max power, the match was ended before it got out of hand, and it is not explicit proof of the claim that Gohan is 3-A. By that logic anybody who fought Goku or Piccolo would be 3-A, which is not sufficient evidence for anybody else by itself. I should reiterate this is before the battle with SSJB Goku and Gohan, that happens after Piccolos training and Watagash events. Not to mention Goku and Piccolo explicitly say later that Gohan is not at the level of power he was against Buu after getting his Mystic amp, so the notion is directly contradicted that Gohan was above his Buu saga self. There is no solid proof he is 3-A from what I see, just scaling to a friendly sparing match.
Prove it is referring explicitly to the Ultimate form. Please show these explicit feats that prove that Gohan is 3-A. They say specifically "Gohan was able to get back his original power", "if you cant even evoke your original strength", "that power you used when you fought Buu, awaken that real you!". They are referring explicitly to the strength, and power he had originally when fighting Buu, it is never stated or implied they were referring only to the Ultimate form itself. Not to mention they say "Gohan, I don't believe that is the extent of your power" when he achieves Ultimate form again, further showing that when they refer to "power", they mean what they say, power, as Gohan is expected to gain more power, not some new form beyond Mystic form. So you really have not provided any evidence for your assertion that they are strictly only referring to the form itself and not his actual power, while I have provided ample evidence they are referring to the literal original power or strength from the Super Buu battle.
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Only the anime
Nullflowerblush
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can we upgrade the buu saga god-tiers to possibly 3-A?
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How would this be applicable? If Gohan is 3-A he scale aboveGoku SSJG
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No, this only proves Gohan pre Piccolo training is inferior to his old Buu arc Mystic forms power, it doesn't prove that his buu saga self scales to 3-A characters. Gohan achieves his power that he had, and then surpasses that with more training before ToP and fighting SSJB Goku. So Gohan is superior to his Buu saga self after Piccolo training ends, not the same, but weaker before the training.
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For this one I'm mostly focusing on Gohan since his tier is important for scaling the Watagash feat, although I would agree that Piccolos reasoning for 3-A in U6 saga is shaky, given he was outclassed by a heavily damaged and exhausted Frost, and only even had a chance of winning by charging an attack that "broke his limits" for several minutes, so not even close to his normal power. So him scaling to Frost based on that battle sounds like bad reasoning given the context of the battle. Although Piccolo in ToP is definitely 3-A. But again, more focused on showing that SSJ2 Gohan (DBS) < Ultimate Gohan (Buu arc) for now.
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Well, SSJRyu1 seems to make some good points. What do you think @DarkDragonMedeus ?
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I still strongly disagree; there is no proof that Frost was exhausted, and he was legit overpowering the base form of Goku in his 2nd form. Goku even noted he felt forced to go Super Saiyan; and while he did overpower his final form initially, that's when he got poisoned. Piccolo did better against Frost than base form Goku did and even Goku was surprised by how much he improved. And while he did need to use tactics in the end, he would have one won the fight fair and square with his special Beam Cannon had he not been poisoned. Piccolo still has enough reason to be 3-A as do the U6 cast and even Cabba. Speaking of Cabba, in his base form, Vegeta noted he was clearly weaker than Piccolo by saying Cabba was too weak to be in the tournament but Piccolo was strong enough. But that was before Cabba became a SSJ and later a SSJ2. And after the latter, that's when Vegeta even decided to go all out as a SSB. So the U6 cast has 3-A justifications and thus Piccolo would be as a result.
While I can at least see skepticism for Gohan specifically, all those other characters are clearly 3-A. Also, it's weird for Piccolo to just jump to 3-A unless Gohan was also getting stronger when the very reason they were sparring/training to begin with was because Gohan requested Piccolo to train him. It was Gohan wouldn't couldn't take being too weak to protect his friends back in RoF saga. And I already explained that even RoF and BoG saga still had Gohan being Ultimate Gohan tier roughly. He was in his Ultimate Gohan form in BoG saga against Beerus and was roughly Majin Buu's tier at minimum against Beerus. Then in RoF saga, his SSJ1 form overpowered a Ginyu possessed Togama who is well above his original form, who one-shotted Sishimi, who is far superior to base Gohan + slightly stronger than Piccolo at the time, and also withstood a direct hit from Gotenks. And while I it may be hard to prove that Gohan got much stronger from training with Piccolo, the fact that one of them became 3-A, still debunks the idea that Gohan is weaker than he was in Buu saga during U6 saga and the like. AKM Sama might have more details to add, and apparently he also knows more context on the Goku Vs Gohan sparring match.
While I can at least see skepticism for Gohan specifically, all those other characters are clearly 3-A. Also, it's weird for Piccolo to just jump to 3-A unless Gohan was also getting stronger when the very reason they were sparring/training to begin with was because Gohan requested Piccolo to train him. It was Gohan wouldn't couldn't take being too weak to protect his friends back in RoF saga. And I already explained that even RoF and BoG saga still had Gohan being Ultimate Gohan tier roughly. He was in his Ultimate Gohan form in BoG saga against Beerus and was roughly Majin Buu's tier at minimum against Beerus. Then in RoF saga, his SSJ1 form overpowered a Ginyu possessed Togama who is well above his original form, who one-shotted Sishimi, who is far superior to base Gohan + slightly stronger than Piccolo at the time, and also withstood a direct hit from Gotenks. And while I it may be hard to prove that Gohan got much stronger from training with Piccolo, the fact that one of them became 3-A, still debunks the idea that Gohan is weaker than he was in Buu saga during U6 saga and the like. AKM Sama might have more details to add, and apparently he also knows more context on the Goku Vs Gohan sparring match.
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Eh I'm not really sure if Gohan actually went Ultimate in BoG. He didn't have the bang on his hair which he always has in his Ultimate form and he got oneshot by Beerus ragdolling Fat Buu. Also when Gohan is about to regain his Ultimate form, Piccolo tells him to regain the power he used against Buu, but doesn't mention about the Ultimate power he supposedly used against Beerus so that kinda brings to whole BoG Ultimate Gohan to question
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He for the most part had the hair style, and he had the attire. And there was the fact that his hair was still black during the face sandwich Beerus did with Gohan and Buu. "Getting oneshotted" is still something that would logically happen regardless; only Goku and to a lesser extent Vegeta actually stood up against casual Beerus.
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Although his attire was mostly similar and his hair was black against Beerus, the problem is that you could argue that he was simply using his base form against Beerus. It wouldn't be too farfetched considering how Gotenks didn't go even SSJ against Beerus nor did Piccolo go unweighted. As for the oneshot I was only referring to how Beerus throwing Fat Buu at Gohan was enough to oneshot him which kinda seems odd since Ultimate Gohan is faaaaar above Fat Buu.
I'm not saying I have any particular issue with BoG Gohan having Ultimate btw. It's just that there are some things which raise an eyebrow imo.
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1) Sorry, but from what I see DDM analysis of Goku vs Frost is wrong. Right before Goku goes SSJ he gets up, brushes himself off like nothing happened and says "Thanks to you I'm finally in gear. I'm a slow starter so thanks!" So he was not serious or warmed up until that point when he goes SSJ, therefore scaling Frost to a serious base Goku does not work, as he was explicitly not serious until he goes SSJ. And he only went SSJ to goad Frost into using his Finale form as shown when Goku says "Aren't ya hiding at least another transformation?" then transforms into SSJ and says briefly after "you take out your final form to" further showing SSJ was not likely needed, just a tactic to get Frost to go full power and use his final form. Furthermore Goku upon going SSJ dominates Frost and says "is that the limit to your power?" and after pummeling and overpowering Frost says "I recommend giving up" indicating Frost in nowhere near his level. Goku even visibly rocks Frost and leaves him shaking in the knees, barely able to stand during that exchange. Not to mention Vegeta one shots Frost and says "Don't worry, I held back" So I consider scaling Frost to even base Goku questionable at best tbh. I am still OK with saying Frost could scale to base Goku, but even that is iffy honestly, definably not SSJ at all though.
2) Scaling Frost to Piccolo is absolutely wrong though. Frost, after getting visibly rocked and struggling to catch his breathe after his match with Goku outright says "I don't have the strength left to kill you" to Piccolo. So we know for a fact, not even counting the fact Frost was visibly rocked and panting against Goku, that he outright is saying he is severely weakened to Piccolo. Also Piccolos only shot to win against a weakened Frost is charging an attack for several minutes WAY beyond his standard power, that is described as "Transcends his limits" so it doesn't even apply to his normal power. So scaling Piccolo to Frost is in no way reasonable or accurate.
3) Gohan having a friendly sparring match with Piccolo when neither are going all out doesn't mean he scales to Piccolo anyway, or anybody who fights Goku would be 3-A. So it's moot even if Piccolo was 3-A anyway since Gohan doesn't have sufficient proof to scale, and Piccolo later outright confirms he is weaker than his self from the Super Buu battle.
4) Saying Cabba was to weak to be in the tournament Is complete out of context and not the proper wording, and they say nothing comparing him to Piccolo, that's a complete leap in logic and head canon. Vegeta states "I'm surprised they even let you compete" in response to learning Cabba can't use SSJ, while trying to teach Cabba to use SSJ, and pretending to be enraged against Cabba. Before that Vegeta was even praising him that he could keep up in base form. It in no way proves Cabba is inferior to everybody else in the tournament.
5) This is the big point Gohan doing friendly sparring with Goku and Piccolo when nobody was going all out does not prove Gohan is 3-A, even if they were. So the Frost and Piccolo scaling means very little to the argument in the first place. Please give actual evidence that Gohan is 3-A beyond him having a friendly sparring match with Goku and Piccolo, including the scans for specific wording for the assertions.
6) Even if Gohan had Ultimate form and its origional power in BoG, it does not mean anything for RoF and onward where one of the main plot points is he stopped training and lost the form, where he explicitly has weakened and can no longer use it, his body can barely hold a charging SSJ form to signal Goku. I'm not arguing about BoG, just RoF to pre Piccolo training being inferior to Gohans power vs Super Buu.
7) Gohan outright says he cant use his full potential in RoF because he wasn't training. And I could find nothing indicating Tagoma with Ginyu was as strong as Gohan at his peak, that wouldn't even make sense since Gohan overpowered him with SSJ. Tagoma is not even 3-A anyway so that doesn't prove Gohan is by any means.
8) Please give actual evidence with scans for exact wording that Gohan was equal or superior to his Mystic form from Buu arc if your going to assert it.
9) There is no proof Piccolo is 3-A in RoF, so I don't see how that's relevant.
10) This is also a huge point It is explicitly stated that Gohan had to regain the original power and the strength he had against Super Buu prior to his training with Piccolo, and then surpass it, so we know for a fact that the leaps in logic to place him above his power vs Super Buu prior are directly in contradiction to the story and narrative.
Relevant scans
So I still see no evidence of Gohan being 3-A prior to his training with Piccolo. While I have presented substantial evidence that he was inferior to the power/strength he had vs Super Buu prior to his training with piccolo in the OP. If 3-A proof actually exists prior to that training, please present it, with scans for exact wording.
2) Scaling Frost to Piccolo is absolutely wrong though. Frost, after getting visibly rocked and struggling to catch his breathe after his match with Goku outright says "I don't have the strength left to kill you" to Piccolo. So we know for a fact, not even counting the fact Frost was visibly rocked and panting against Goku, that he outright is saying he is severely weakened to Piccolo. Also Piccolos only shot to win against a weakened Frost is charging an attack for several minutes WAY beyond his standard power, that is described as "Transcends his limits" so it doesn't even apply to his normal power. So scaling Piccolo to Frost is in no way reasonable or accurate.
3) Gohan having a friendly sparring match with Piccolo when neither are going all out doesn't mean he scales to Piccolo anyway, or anybody who fights Goku would be 3-A. So it's moot even if Piccolo was 3-A anyway since Gohan doesn't have sufficient proof to scale, and Piccolo later outright confirms he is weaker than his self from the Super Buu battle.
4) Saying Cabba was to weak to be in the tournament Is complete out of context and not the proper wording, and they say nothing comparing him to Piccolo, that's a complete leap in logic and head canon. Vegeta states "I'm surprised they even let you compete" in response to learning Cabba can't use SSJ, while trying to teach Cabba to use SSJ, and pretending to be enraged against Cabba. Before that Vegeta was even praising him that he could keep up in base form. It in no way proves Cabba is inferior to everybody else in the tournament.
5) This is the big point Gohan doing friendly sparring with Goku and Piccolo when nobody was going all out does not prove Gohan is 3-A, even if they were. So the Frost and Piccolo scaling means very little to the argument in the first place. Please give actual evidence that Gohan is 3-A beyond him having a friendly sparring match with Goku and Piccolo, including the scans for specific wording for the assertions.
6) Even if Gohan had Ultimate form and its origional power in BoG, it does not mean anything for RoF and onward where one of the main plot points is he stopped training and lost the form, where he explicitly has weakened and can no longer use it, his body can barely hold a charging SSJ form to signal Goku. I'm not arguing about BoG, just RoF to pre Piccolo training being inferior to Gohans power vs Super Buu.
7) Gohan outright says he cant use his full potential in RoF because he wasn't training. And I could find nothing indicating Tagoma with Ginyu was as strong as Gohan at his peak, that wouldn't even make sense since Gohan overpowered him with SSJ. Tagoma is not even 3-A anyway so that doesn't prove Gohan is by any means.
8) Please give actual evidence with scans for exact wording that Gohan was equal or superior to his Mystic form from Buu arc if your going to assert it.
9) There is no proof Piccolo is 3-A in RoF, so I don't see how that's relevant.
10) This is also a huge point It is explicitly stated that Gohan had to regain the original power and the strength he had against Super Buu prior to his training with Piccolo, and then surpass it, so we know for a fact that the leaps in logic to place him above his power vs Super Buu prior are directly in contradiction to the story and narrative.
Relevant scans
So I still see no evidence of Gohan being 3-A prior to his training with Piccolo. While I have presented substantial evidence that he was inferior to the power/strength he had vs Super Buu prior to his training with piccolo in the OP. If 3-A proof actually exists prior to that training, please present it, with scans for exact wording.
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XSOULOFCINDERX
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I agree with this 100%.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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You basically summerized my entire arguments against 3-A Frost and Piccolo and explained it way better than I ever could. I also agree with this 100%
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i agree with ssjryu
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@SSJRyu1 I think DDM is referring to the statement/narration Gohan made at the end of the episode. Herms actually touched up on this statement a while back explaining that it's pretty much just talking about Gohan' strength currently, not his prime
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This pretty much sums up my thoughts as well
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I also agree with this.
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Thank you for clarifying, it seems the statement was poorly interpreted and does not actually imply Tagoma was Buu arc Mystic Gohan level in the first place, but RoF Gohan level when he is on point.
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Yeah, Tagoma being RoF Gohan level makes more sense since even SSJ1 Gotenks also heavily damaged Tagoma albeit headbutting him in the nuts but still.
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I have been reading the 10 points and I still strongly disagree there aren't other 3-A characters; also, there were a lot of strawmans used against me. But going back to the beginning to the starts are.
First of all, I never claimed anyone other than Goku, Vegeta, and Frieza were 3-A during RoF saga; all I said was Piccolo is at least as strong as his was in Buu saga and Android saga; High 4-C. And I was talking about Tagoma stomping everyone including Shisami, base Gohan, and Piccolo. Base Gohan also should be no weaker than he was in Buu saga at the time he was pulling the Z sword out; thus stronger than Shin. The only one who could hurt Tagoma at the time was Gotenks; who headbutted his crotch and Tagoma tanked it. That's where his current 4-B placement comes from. But after he traded bodies with Captain Ginyu, that Ginyu became significantly stronger than Tagoma was. It's on the profiles. But even with that power up, he was still inferior to Super Saiyan Gohan at the time; so he's 4-B here clearly. And when Piccolo got killed by Frieza, Gohan unleashed his rage power that Goku could sense it from Beerus' planet. Which 1st form Frieza, Tagoma, and Gotenks never channel that much power. So he really can't be weaker than he was in Mystic Gohan.
Anyway, Piccolo and Gohan both trained to get much stronger, you can argue that this wasn't yet 3-A evidence yet, but Goku and Vegeta were both impressed by the power jump. But Gohan couldn't go to the tournament because of some school meeting. But this is where we get into the Universe 6 scaling. Actually, it was Vados herself that considered Frost to be the strongest member of the Universe 6 cast. While she did not know about Hit's true power, and Cabba didn't reach his SSJ forms at the time, this still puts Frost above Magetta. Even during the fight, Goku actually did compare both his strength and appearance to Frieza; which he would logically be comparing him to his most recent encounter. I'm aware the SSJ form was a lot stronger than Frost, but his base form legit struggled and felt forced to go SSJ. "Goku needing a warm up" doesn't make sense because he could have easily just one-shotted him in base form if Frost wasn't 3-A and he wouldn't even need to warm up. He's able to go SSB right from the get go as seen in RoF saga. He did lose his stamina fighting Goku and Piccolo and was oneshotted by a held back Vegeta yes, but it's still important to note that Goku and Vegeta both grew strong enough that they could both oneshot RoF Frieza's 4th form in their base forms via training for 3 years in RoSaT; I'm not even going to debate if they would do that with Golden Frieza.
As for the Cabba statement, while Vegeta never directly compared Cabba to Piccolo or Gohan, he did basically tell him that he never should have joined the tournament at his current power level and should have trained more. But this is despite him having no doubts about Gohan or Piccolo joining them. He was even thought of as the weakest member of Universe 6 before his SSJ transformation learnings. I do not need to explain why Magetta is 3-A, he legit overpowered SSJ Vegeta and Vegeta never really overpowered Magetta, only weakened him with the "Metal Piece of Junk" insult. And while SSB would have obviously stomped Vegeta, he should be no weaker than the U6 saga base forms. Yet Vados considers Frost stronger than him. Now as for Piccolo Vs Frost, Piccolo has been shown to keep up with him in speed and evaded a bunch of his attacks while concentrating the Special Beam Cannon. Frost losing some of his stamina should be so much to the point where his final form is weaker than his 2nd or 1st forms. Which even his 2nd form seemingly overpowered base Goku. And the "Holding back" referred more so to him not using his transformations as opposed to him literally goofing around like he did in ToP. And this wasn't like how he was able to hold back with style during the ToP recruitment drive against Krillin. Goku also basically said he stopped holding back after he went SSJ; and while he was stomping Frost, it's not like he knocked him out with a single punch. Frost managed to stay conscious against multiple punches.
I do not have much defense for U6 Gohan's power levels, other than his sparring and training with Piccolo was what also caused Piccolo to eventually grow to how strong he is in U6. And in ToP, Piccolo eventually became overwhelmingly stronger than SSJ2 Gohan and almost as strong as the new Ultimate Gohan that matched SSB Goku. But back to U6, the sparring match between Goku and Gohan, I might need to watch again. But AKM Sama seemed to suggest that it was a legit training method. But at the very least, everyone is a lot stronger than the Buu saga cast at this point so I do not thing Watagash may downscale to anyone in Buu saga or Android saga.
But regardless, I'm strongly against downgrading Frost or U6 Piccolo for reasons I mentioned; and we'd likely need to do a revaluation for the other members of Universe 6 at least pre ToP if my requests get rejected. I don't really care much for U6 Gohan, but still against downgrading him any less than 4-B or less scaling them to any Buu saga characters.
First of all, I never claimed anyone other than Goku, Vegeta, and Frieza were 3-A during RoF saga; all I said was Piccolo is at least as strong as his was in Buu saga and Android saga; High 4-C. And I was talking about Tagoma stomping everyone including Shisami, base Gohan, and Piccolo. Base Gohan also should be no weaker than he was in Buu saga at the time he was pulling the Z sword out; thus stronger than Shin. The only one who could hurt Tagoma at the time was Gotenks; who headbutted his crotch and Tagoma tanked it. That's where his current 4-B placement comes from. But after he traded bodies with Captain Ginyu, that Ginyu became significantly stronger than Tagoma was. It's on the profiles. But even with that power up, he was still inferior to Super Saiyan Gohan at the time; so he's 4-B here clearly. And when Piccolo got killed by Frieza, Gohan unleashed his rage power that Goku could sense it from Beerus' planet. Which 1st form Frieza, Tagoma, and Gotenks never channel that much power. So he really can't be weaker than he was in Mystic Gohan.
Anyway, Piccolo and Gohan both trained to get much stronger, you can argue that this wasn't yet 3-A evidence yet, but Goku and Vegeta were both impressed by the power jump. But Gohan couldn't go to the tournament because of some school meeting. But this is where we get into the Universe 6 scaling. Actually, it was Vados herself that considered Frost to be the strongest member of the Universe 6 cast. While she did not know about Hit's true power, and Cabba didn't reach his SSJ forms at the time, this still puts Frost above Magetta. Even during the fight, Goku actually did compare both his strength and appearance to Frieza; which he would logically be comparing him to his most recent encounter. I'm aware the SSJ form was a lot stronger than Frost, but his base form legit struggled and felt forced to go SSJ. "Goku needing a warm up" doesn't make sense because he could have easily just one-shotted him in base form if Frost wasn't 3-A and he wouldn't even need to warm up. He's able to go SSB right from the get go as seen in RoF saga. He did lose his stamina fighting Goku and Piccolo and was oneshotted by a held back Vegeta yes, but it's still important to note that Goku and Vegeta both grew strong enough that they could both oneshot RoF Frieza's 4th form in their base forms via training for 3 years in RoSaT; I'm not even going to debate if they would do that with Golden Frieza.
As for the Cabba statement, while Vegeta never directly compared Cabba to Piccolo or Gohan, he did basically tell him that he never should have joined the tournament at his current power level and should have trained more. But this is despite him having no doubts about Gohan or Piccolo joining them. He was even thought of as the weakest member of Universe 6 before his SSJ transformation learnings. I do not need to explain why Magetta is 3-A, he legit overpowered SSJ Vegeta and Vegeta never really overpowered Magetta, only weakened him with the "Metal Piece of Junk" insult. And while SSB would have obviously stomped Vegeta, he should be no weaker than the U6 saga base forms. Yet Vados considers Frost stronger than him. Now as for Piccolo Vs Frost, Piccolo has been shown to keep up with him in speed and evaded a bunch of his attacks while concentrating the Special Beam Cannon. Frost losing some of his stamina should be so much to the point where his final form is weaker than his 2nd or 1st forms. Which even his 2nd form seemingly overpowered base Goku. And the "Holding back" referred more so to him not using his transformations as opposed to him literally goofing around like he did in ToP. And this wasn't like how he was able to hold back with style during the ToP recruitment drive against Krillin. Goku also basically said he stopped holding back after he went SSJ; and while he was stomping Frost, it's not like he knocked him out with a single punch. Frost managed to stay conscious against multiple punches.
I do not have much defense for U6 Gohan's power levels, other than his sparring and training with Piccolo was what also caused Piccolo to eventually grow to how strong he is in U6. And in ToP, Piccolo eventually became overwhelmingly stronger than SSJ2 Gohan and almost as strong as the new Ultimate Gohan that matched SSB Goku. But back to U6, the sparring match between Goku and Gohan, I might need to watch again. But AKM Sama seemed to suggest that it was a legit training method. But at the very least, everyone is a lot stronger than the Buu saga cast at this point so I do not thing Watagash may downscale to anyone in Buu saga or Android saga.
But regardless, I'm strongly against downgrading Frost or U6 Piccolo for reasons I mentioned; and we'd likely need to do a revaluation for the other members of Universe 6 at least pre ToP if my requests get rejected. I don't really care much for U6 Gohan, but still against downgrading him any less than 4-B or less scaling them to any Buu saga characters.
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@DarkDragonMedeus
I'm fine with saying Gohan in RoF was likely around as strong as he was during the Buu saga pre mystic form. That is what I am advocating actually. Surviving a single gag headbutt from SSJ Gotenks is not proof Tagoma is 4-B, and even if Tagoma scaled, Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks, so its not proof that Gohan was even at Buu saga Mystic level even if we scale Tagoma to SSJ Gotenks. Disagree, nothing indicates he was at or above his Mystic level of power in RoF.
Please show the actual scans for Vados statement about Frost being the strongest U6 fighter. Although even if it can help prove that Frost is 3-A, Piccolo lost to a severely weakened Frost, and only had a chance with an attack that is far beyond his normal capacity, so he doesn't scale in U6 saga Frost anyway. So the point is of little importance.
Goku outright said he was warming up and not serious until going SSJ, so I disagree, the narrative explicitly indicates he was not serious until he went SSJ, so scaling his base to Frost is sketchy at best. Either way, Piccolo is nowhere near Frost level, Frost was literally rocked with his knees shaking, and panting from exhaustion, and said that he didn't even have the power to kill Piccolo anymore admitting he was severely weakened, and Piccolo still was significantly inferior to the point he needed to charge an attack for several minutes and break his limits to even have a single attack that could work on Frost.
Also, simply sparring with Piccolo without either going all out, and the fight being stopped is nowhere near enough proof to scale Gohan to Piccolo anyway.
Disagree. There is no proof that has been presented that Gohan surpassed his power from the Super Buu fight until he trains with Piccolo and unlocks his Ultimate form again right before the ToP. And the statements from that arc substantiate that explicitly when they say he needs to regain his original strength and power from when he fought Buu.
I could accept Frost scaling to base Goku maybe, honestly id place him as possibly 3-A, but Piccolo does not scale to Frost since Frost was severely weakened and fatigued, and Piccolo still wasn't even on his level with standard attack's, only with a hail marry that he needed to charge for several minutes to surpass his limits, kind of like with Tien and Cell. Also Gohan scaling to Piccolo based on the friendly sparring is a no go fra.
Gohan is as you said at the start during RoF more like 4-C in base, high 4-C as SSJ, so anybody 4-C scales to Gohan, who scales to Watagash feat in base.
I'm fine with saying Gohan in RoF was likely around as strong as he was during the Buu saga pre mystic form. That is what I am advocating actually. Surviving a single gag headbutt from SSJ Gotenks is not proof Tagoma is 4-B, and even if Tagoma scaled, Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks, so its not proof that Gohan was even at Buu saga Mystic level even if we scale Tagoma to SSJ Gotenks. Disagree, nothing indicates he was at or above his Mystic level of power in RoF.
Please show the actual scans for Vados statement about Frost being the strongest U6 fighter. Although even if it can help prove that Frost is 3-A, Piccolo lost to a severely weakened Frost, and only had a chance with an attack that is far beyond his normal capacity, so he doesn't scale in U6 saga Frost anyway. So the point is of little importance.
Goku outright said he was warming up and not serious until going SSJ, so I disagree, the narrative explicitly indicates he was not serious until he went SSJ, so scaling his base to Frost is sketchy at best. Either way, Piccolo is nowhere near Frost level, Frost was literally rocked with his knees shaking, and panting from exhaustion, and said that he didn't even have the power to kill Piccolo anymore admitting he was severely weakened, and Piccolo still was significantly inferior to the point he needed to charge an attack for several minutes and break his limits to even have a single attack that could work on Frost.
Also, simply sparring with Piccolo without either going all out, and the fight being stopped is nowhere near enough proof to scale Gohan to Piccolo anyway.
Disagree. There is no proof that has been presented that Gohan surpassed his power from the Super Buu fight until he trains with Piccolo and unlocks his Ultimate form again right before the ToP. And the statements from that arc substantiate that explicitly when they say he needs to regain his original strength and power from when he fought Buu.
I could accept Frost scaling to base Goku maybe, honestly id place him as possibly 3-A, but Piccolo does not scale to Frost since Frost was severely weakened and fatigued, and Piccolo still wasn't even on his level with standard attack's, only with a hail marry that he needed to charge for several minutes to surpass his limits, kind of like with Tien and Cell. Also Gohan scaling to Piccolo based on the friendly sparring is a no go fra.
Gohan is as you said at the start during RoF more like 4-C in base, high 4-C as SSJ, so anybody 4-C scales to Gohan, who scales to Watagash feat in base.
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I agree with Ryu's placement for RoF Gohan. The whole headbutt thing shouldn't be used since he was clearly wounded and it's very likely a gag making it very questionable and the whole Tagoma being as strong as Ultimate Gohan was debunked by Herms.
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I still agree with SSJRyu.
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I am neutral for now
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i agree with ryu lol
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I know that may not be proof that he directly scales from Gotenks; however, this is still a pretty solid durability feat. And the force of the attack even caused Goten and Trunks to separate early for some reason. I still see no reason for him to be weaker than Fat Buu, also, even being 2x stronger than how strong Z Sword Gohan was while being almost 50x weaker than Super Perfect Cell would make him 4-B. Not to mention all the Buu saga characters are much stronger than Super Perfect Cell. Also, people are still leaving out the Ginyu thing being an upgrade for Tagoma. But still, I believe it was Dark649 who presented the idea of SSJ RoF Gohan being comparable to Mystic Gohan which he tends to have an excellent sense of judgement regarding that. But still, not saying Tagoma, only that he should be within the same ball park as various Buu saga top tiers. But an enraged SSJ Gohan should be very up their. I also forgot to mention he also did get a zenkai during the fight when he took a senzu bean after his injuries from Tagoma's ki blast.
Okay, it was a manga exclusive statement after looking through offsite things. So retracting that detail, but I still have heavy doubts about Frost being weaker than base Cabba. Or other U6 saiyan's base forms. His raw power was also shown to be relatively comparable to that of Magetta's in Tournament of Power, and this is despite Frost not getting much stronger than he was in U6 unlike the Saiyans.
Frost not having enough strength to kill =/= him going all the way from 3-A to 4-B if his 2nd form already has statements of being comparable to RoF Frieza excluding Golden form. Besides, it's a tournament where killing isn't allowed. He pretty much stopped panting during his fight with Piccolo, and yes he had a disadvantage in raw power outside his Ki blast, but his speed appeared to be the same if not superior. And his final attack would have KO'd Frost had he got the chance to use it. And he wrapped his arm around Frost who wasn't strong enough to break out of it and still had to cheat his way out of it. You can argue that he may not be comparable to Frost and he's clearly much weaker than SSJ Goku at the time, but he should still be no weaker than base Cabba.
Sparring match yes, neither one of them going all out, yes. But they were still training and they both still got a lot stronger. Makes little sense for one of them to jump all the way to 3-A and the other being 4-B or less. But they both should be a lot higher than the old 4-B showings. And again, the "Regain your full strength from the time he fought Buu" still sounds more like in terms of placement among the Z Fighters rather than just raw power level. Again, it's the same as Majin Vegeta claiming to "Returning to the mighty warrior he was when he used to be evil." But 5-B Majin Vegeta is blatant downplay, so saying Gohan wasn't ever 4-B again until ToP would also be blatant downplay; especially if he overpowered SSB tier characters.
The Tien example doesn't really work as Cell was explicitly holding back and literally overpowered and stomped Tien in the end. Where as Frost literally did struggle to land a hit on Piccolo and would have been outright one-shotted by Piccolo has he not poisoned him. And it was more than just a friendly sparring match, but Piccolo was trying to be a serious mentor for Gohan. And Gohan was stronger before that training session, so it would be weird for Piccolo to have grown a lot more than Gohan did. Then again, a similar thing did happen during ToP training.
P.S. Z Sword Gohan was High 4-C+ even in base form, so that's the absolute lowest we can make the strongest RoF cast. And that excludes Tagoma being massively above Shisami, SSJ Gohan > Ginyu Tagoma > Base Tagoma and a super enraged SSJ Gohan being a lot stronger than he was when he fought Tagoma. But a recap; we either keep U6 Piccolo and Frost 3-A, or we downgrade base Cabba to 4-B. And if base Cabba stays 3-A, so does everyone superior to him.
All I got to say for now before I have to go to work again.
Okay, it was a manga exclusive statement after looking through offsite things. So retracting that detail, but I still have heavy doubts about Frost being weaker than base Cabba. Or other U6 saiyan's base forms. His raw power was also shown to be relatively comparable to that of Magetta's in Tournament of Power, and this is despite Frost not getting much stronger than he was in U6 unlike the Saiyans.
Frost not having enough strength to kill =/= him going all the way from 3-A to 4-B if his 2nd form already has statements of being comparable to RoF Frieza excluding Golden form. Besides, it's a tournament where killing isn't allowed. He pretty much stopped panting during his fight with Piccolo, and yes he had a disadvantage in raw power outside his Ki blast, but his speed appeared to be the same if not superior. And his final attack would have KO'd Frost had he got the chance to use it. And he wrapped his arm around Frost who wasn't strong enough to break out of it and still had to cheat his way out of it. You can argue that he may not be comparable to Frost and he's clearly much weaker than SSJ Goku at the time, but he should still be no weaker than base Cabba.
Sparring match yes, neither one of them going all out, yes. But they were still training and they both still got a lot stronger. Makes little sense for one of them to jump all the way to 3-A and the other being 4-B or less. But they both should be a lot higher than the old 4-B showings. And again, the "Regain your full strength from the time he fought Buu" still sounds more like in terms of placement among the Z Fighters rather than just raw power level. Again, it's the same as Majin Vegeta claiming to "Returning to the mighty warrior he was when he used to be evil." But 5-B Majin Vegeta is blatant downplay, so saying Gohan wasn't ever 4-B again until ToP would also be blatant downplay; especially if he overpowered SSB tier characters.
The Tien example doesn't really work as Cell was explicitly holding back and literally overpowered and stomped Tien in the end. Where as Frost literally did struggle to land a hit on Piccolo and would have been outright one-shotted by Piccolo has he not poisoned him. And it was more than just a friendly sparring match, but Piccolo was trying to be a serious mentor for Gohan. And Gohan was stronger before that training session, so it would be weird for Piccolo to have grown a lot more than Gohan did. Then again, a similar thing did happen during ToP training.
P.S. Z Sword Gohan was High 4-C+ even in base form, so that's the absolute lowest we can make the strongest RoF cast. And that excludes Tagoma being massively above Shisami, SSJ Gohan > Ginyu Tagoma > Base Tagoma and a super enraged SSJ Gohan being a lot stronger than he was when he fought Tagoma. But a recap; we either keep U6 Piccolo and Frost 3-A, or we downgrade base Cabba to 4-B. And if base Cabba stays 3-A, so does everyone superior to him.
All I got to say for now before I have to go to work again.
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Sorry ahead of time if I'm being blunt, but this is getting repetitive. Also please include the scans to accompany your assertions going forward.
You have provided no proof that he is Mystic Gohan level in RoF. Basically your asserting Tagoma could somewhat scale to SSJ Gotenks for surviving a gag headbutt. That is not nearly enough to say Tagoma is surely Gotenks level. Using head canon 2X multiplier when it is never stated or implied is not really viable. Tagoma got unquantifiable stronger, it does not prove he is Mystic Gohan level in any way. You keep bringing up unquantifiable boosts, none of whihc prove he is Mystic Gohan level, or have specific multipliers to quantify them, so not viable as proof that Tagoma was Mystic Gohan level. Also appeal to authority for name dropping Dark649 without actually stating his arguments doesn't prove it either.
Fair enough, glad you caught the error.
Frost was far from peak being severely damaged and fatigued, and stating as much, and Piccolo was far beyond his standard peak. Trying to downscale Piccolo from a weakened Frost with an attack that surpasses Piccolos limits is not a good way to gauge Piccolo. So Piccolo doesn't scale, and we don't back scale like that. Cabba isn't really relevant since Gohan and Piccolo never fight him and you admitted your Vados statement was manga only.
Fact is Gohan and Piccolo having a sparring match where they never go all out and its stopped before it gets serious is not sufficient proof to scale Gohan to Piccolo. Anything beyond that like trying to rationalize there growth rate leading up to ToP is head canon, equivalent of trying to guess power levels after Frieza arc. Weird scaling is often present in DBS after all.
Cell wasn't holding back, he was trying to escape and chase 18. So your fundamentally wrong saying eh was holding back. Piccolo simply doesn't scale to Frost fra.
Nope. Large star+ for SSJ2, Large star for SSJ, star for Base is what he is listed as. This is what I am recommending he be listed as for RoF anyway. I am not overly concerned about Frost, although id lean toward him being downgraded, although Piccolo and Gohan are definitely in need of a downgrade as they lack any compelling evidence for being 3-A, or even 4-B honestly before there training for ToP.
You have provided no proof that he is Mystic Gohan level in RoF. Basically your asserting Tagoma could somewhat scale to SSJ Gotenks for surviving a gag headbutt. That is not nearly enough to say Tagoma is surely Gotenks level. Using head canon 2X multiplier when it is never stated or implied is not really viable. Tagoma got unquantifiable stronger, it does not prove he is Mystic Gohan level in any way. You keep bringing up unquantifiable boosts, none of whihc prove he is Mystic Gohan level, or have specific multipliers to quantify them, so not viable as proof that Tagoma was Mystic Gohan level. Also appeal to authority for name dropping Dark649 without actually stating his arguments doesn't prove it either.
Fair enough, glad you caught the error.
Frost was far from peak being severely damaged and fatigued, and stating as much, and Piccolo was far beyond his standard peak. Trying to downscale Piccolo from a weakened Frost with an attack that surpasses Piccolos limits is not a good way to gauge Piccolo. So Piccolo doesn't scale, and we don't back scale like that. Cabba isn't really relevant since Gohan and Piccolo never fight him and you admitted your Vados statement was manga only.
Fact is Gohan and Piccolo having a sparring match where they never go all out and its stopped before it gets serious is not sufficient proof to scale Gohan to Piccolo. Anything beyond that like trying to rationalize there growth rate leading up to ToP is head canon, equivalent of trying to guess power levels after Frieza arc. Weird scaling is often present in DBS after all.
Cell wasn't holding back, he was trying to escape and chase 18. So your fundamentally wrong saying eh was holding back. Piccolo simply doesn't scale to Frost fra.
Nope. Large star+ for SSJ2, Large star for SSJ, star for Base is what he is listed as. This is what I am recommending he be listed as for RoF anyway. I am not overly concerned about Frost, although id lean toward him being downgraded, although Piccolo and Gohan are definitely in need of a downgrade as they lack any compelling evidence for being 3-A, or even 4-B honestly before there training for ToP.
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I wouldn't take the Gotenks headbutt feat too seriously. Master Roshi in the ToP arc also got knocked out by Yurin kicking him in the nuts despite her being faaaaaaar weaker than Roshi.
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I have a question regarding Watagash. It's clear that the alien virus does not follow the principle of more ki = more power and more speed, in the exact way as the rest of the humanoids do. If that's his speed, then by that logic, he should have an insane amount of ki, probably higher than characters from Freeza saga, and thus, he shouldn't be harmless. But he is harmless, which means that logic doesn't apply to Watagash. Plus, the power of the host is based on the darkness in the heart, not ki.
So why are we assuming that Barry Kahn's speed after being possessed by Watagash would be more than Watagash's own speed?
So why are we assuming that Barry Kahn's speed after being possessed by Watagash would be more than Watagash's own speed?
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