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The forgotten speed of Watagash

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And on what basis should we assume that? It's possible for Watagash's speed to be more since he is a free-living virus on his own, but why exactly the speed of his host should be similar?
 
@AKM sama
Barry fused with Watagash would logically have similar or superior speed, as biological organisms in DB almost always use ki for speed and power, Watagash itself manipulates ki as seen where it enhances the hosts ki as its main tactic. And it's not only because of the obvious more power = more speed in DB, which is enough to assert he scales, but also from various interactions such as Watagash being tagged and knocked out along with Barry by Gohans attacks, since if he was much faster he would have fled the attack, and easily avoided being captured. So there is multiple reasons to believe his speed scales, but no direct evidence to believe it doesn't scale. Unless you have explicit statements that he's faster in base the precedents and evidence points to him being overall superior with hosts.

But that is a good point that should be made clear, I will add it as a note to the blog to clarify.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
@AKM sama
Barry fused with Watagash would logically have similar or superior speed, as biological organisms in DB almost always use ki for speed and power, Watagash itself manipulates ki as seen where it enhances the hosts ki as its main tactic. And it's not only because of the obvious more power = more speed in DB, which is enough to assert he scales, but also from various interactions such as Watagash being tagged and knocked out along with Barry by Gohans attacks, since if he was much faster he would have fled the attack, and easily avoided being captured. So there is multiple reasons to believe his speed scales, but no direct evidence to believe it doesn't scale. Unless you have explicit statements that he's faster in base the precedents and evidence points to him being overall superior with hosts.

But that is a good point that should be made clear, I will add it as a note to the blog to clarify.
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Agreed.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
@AKM sama
Barry fused with Watagash would logically have similar or superior speed, as biological organisms in DB almost always use ki for speed and power, Watagash itself manipulates ki as seen where it enhances the hosts ki as its main tactic. And it's not only because of the obvious more power = more speed in DB, which is enough to assert he scales, but also from various interactions such as Watagash being tagged and knocked out along with Barry by Gohans attacks, since if he was much faster he would have fled the attack, and easily avoided being captured. So there is multiple reasons to believe his speed scales, but no direct evidence to believe it doesn't scale. Unless you have explicit statements that he's faster in base the precedents and evidence points to him being overall superior with hosts.

But that is a good point that should be made clear, I will add it as a note to the blog to clarify.
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Pretty much
 
SSJRyu1 said:
@AKM sama
Barry fused with Watagash would logically have similar or superior speed, as biological organisms in DB almost always use ki for speed and power, Watagash itself manipulates ki as seen where it enhances the hosts ki as its main tactic. And it's not only because of the obvious more power = more speed in DB, which is enough to assert he scales, but also from various interactions such as Watagash being tagged and knocked out along with Barry by Gohans attacks, since if he was much faster he would have fled the attack, and easily avoided being captured. So there is multiple reasons to believe his speed scales, but no direct evidence to believe it doesn't scale. Unless you have explicit statements that he's faster in base the precedents and evidence points to him being overall superior with hosts.

But that is a good point that should be made clear, I will add it as a note to the blog to clarify.
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agrreed
 
All we know is Watagash uses darkness to increase the ki of the host, that doesn't mean the host's speed becomes the same as Watagash's own. There is no relation between Watagash's own speed and whatever boost he provides to the host.

Also, Watagash not leaving Barry's body does not disprove anything. He didn't even try to, because we can clearly see Barry reacting to the kamehameha which means he certainly had some window, however small, but he did not try. Happens every time in DB, see every beam struggle ever. No character ever moves out of the way of a losing beam struggle because they never expect to lose. This would be like me saying Goku is slower than the laser because he didn't dodge it in the RoF.
 
I have to agree with AKM; I know someone offsite who shouldn't be named is going to use my "Sword and Shield" status to poison the well for saying that.

But Watagash isn't the traditional Ki control; he just flies around blindly looking for hosts similar to Lavos from Chrono Trigger. And doesn't necessarily have much Ki to empower himself. It's more like Babadi's magic than it is Ki; where it's just the darkness inside people's hearts that amplifies him and not typical Ki. Barry Kahn was just a regular human whom even Mister Satan could probably kick his ass normally, but being possessed by Watagash is what makes him powerful enough to match Gohan. And without a host, he struggled to break out of a glass jar and even someone like Jaco was able to capture someone like him. So he's really a special exception to the typical AP =/= Speed unlike most of Dragon Ball.
 
AKM sama said:
All we know is Watagash uses darkness to increase the ki of the host, that doesn't mean the host's speed becomes the same as Watagash's own. There is no relation between Watagash's own speed and whatever boost he provides to the host.

Also, Watagash not leaving Barry's body does not disprove anything. He didn't even try to, because we can clearly see Barry reacting to the kamehameha which means he certainly had some window, however small, but he did not try. Happens every time in DB, see every beam struggle ever. No character ever moves out of the way of a losing beam struggle because they never expect to lose. This would be like me saying Goku is slower than the laser because he didn't dodge it in the RoF.
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Yes, it does mean they are comparable, because we are told explicitly that by himself Watagash is relatively harmless. This is because he doesn't attack, he looks for a host, and that the power (ki) is increased based on the host. More ki = more power and speed. This is an accepted fact, precedent and relationship for DB unless you have explicit statements otherwise.

Only it does disprove that Watagash is vastly faster without a host, which has no basis in fact in the first place I may add. He left the body of the original robber the moment he lost, so clearly he can freely leave his hosts and will in a losing situation. If Watagash were vastly faster than Gohan or Barry he would have ran when Gohan went SSJ, or at the very least when he was going to kamehameha him. In a beam struggle both the parties are generally around the same speed, hence why they can't escape most of the time, which happens to be the case here and is why Watagash cant run, since he is simply not faster than he is with a host.

Your argument basically boils down to "I think maybe base Watagash is faster than he is with a host", with no actual proof, just head canon, since that is never stated or implied. Yet we know that Watagash with a host is explicitly stronger, which in DB almost always equals faster to, and that he could not just run from Gohan's attacks, further implying he is in fact not faster without a host, or he could have easily ran when he was being overwhelmed, but instead was forced to eat the attack with Barry.

So if you have an explicit statement that Watagash in base is faster than with a host then OK, if not I don't see any reason to believe that to be the case, and multiple reasons to think Gohan and Barry are superior in speed to base Watagash.

As far as Goku being hit by the laser it's considered PIS, and even discounting that he didn't see it at all, so he didn't react since it had hit him by the time he noticed. So bad analogy.
 
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SSJRyu1 said:
Yes, it does mean they are comparable, because we are told explicitly that by himself Watagash is relatively harmless, and that the power (ki) is increased based on the host. More ki = more power and speed. This is an accepted fact, precedent and relationship for DB unless you have explicit statements otherwise.

Only it does disprove that Watagash is vastly faster without a host, which has no basis in fact in the first place I may add. He left the body of the original robber the moment he lost, so clearly he can freely leave his hosts and will in a losing situation. If Watagash were vastly faster than Gohan or Barry he would have ran when Gohan went SSJ, or at the very least when he was going to kamehameha him. In a beam struggle both the parties are generally around the same speed, hence why they can't escape most of the time, which happens to be the case here and is why Watagash cant run, since he is simply not faster than he is with a host.

Your argument basically boils down to "I think maybe base Watagash is faster than he is with a host", with no actual proof, just head canon, since that is never stated or implied. Yet we know that Watagash with a host is explicitly stronger, which in DB almost always equals faster to, and that he could not just run from Gohan's attacks, further implying he is in fact not faster without a host, or he could have easily ran when he was being overwhelmed, but instead was forced to eat the attack with Barry.

So if you have an explicit statement that Watagash in base is faster than with a host then OK, if not I don't see any reason to believe that to be the case, and multiple reasons to think Gohan and Barry are superior in speed to base Watagash.

As far as Goku being hit by the laser it's considered PIS, and even discounting that he didn't see it at all, so he didn't react since it had hit him by the time he noticed. So bad analogy.
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Agreed.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I have to agree with AKM; I know someone offsite who shouldn't be named is going to use my "Sword and Shield" status to poison the well for saying that.

But Watagash isn't the traditional Ki control; he just flies around blindly looking for hosts similar to Lavos from Chrono Trigger. And doesn't necessarily have much Ki to empower himself. It's more like Babadi's magic than it is Ki; where it's just the darkness inside people's hearts that amplifies him and not typical Ki. Barry Kahn was just a regular human whom even Mister Satan could probably kick his ass normally, but being possessed by Watagash is what makes him powerful enough to match Gohan. And without a host, he struggled to break out of a glass jar and even someone like Jaco was able to capture someone like him. So he's really a special exception to the typical AP =/= Speed unlike most of Dragon Ball.
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Can you actually prove he doesn't work with regular ki like every other biological character in the franchise to perform his tasks? After all he amplifies the ki of his hosts so he clearly can manipulate ki, therefore I find that assertion very unlikely, and without explicit proof it really holds no weight. Also he does not fly blindly, he knows to ditch the bank robber when he is on the losing end, and he waits in hiding to avoid detection and to try and get better hosts. The "glass jar" is a containment unit from GP for him. I don't see any actual proof he doesn't scale like every other DB character, not to mention he still can't escape Gohans attacks so clearly he isn't vastly faster than he is in a host.

Also the implication that Watagash has little power and only speed is false, he literally breaks out of his containment twice and blows the top off Jacos ship with his power to leave, so clearly the assertion he only has speed is false to begin with.

If you actually have a statement that Watagash doesn't use normal ki or that his base from is vastly faster then OK, but without that your only using head canon, while I have presented actual explicit proof he has more power with a host, which in DB means more speed unless explicitly stated. Also the fact he can't escape Gohans attack, despite the fact he tries to run in a losing situation, further implying he isn't vastly faster without a host.
 
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It seems that no explicit proof can be brought forward that Watagash base form is slower than his more powerful forms when fused with Barry. Nor has it been proven he uses something different than ki like everybody else. The precedent and standard as we know in DB is that unless explicitly stated more ki/power = more speed. Not to mention Watagash could not escape Gohan, and was forced to take Gohan's kamehameha, which would make no sense if he was vastly faster in base, as he is known to run and hide if on the losing end or about to be captured from his previous showings.

So, it seems that the points outlined in the OP, and subsequent comments elaborating on it, still all remain accurate. Also there seems to be quite a lot of support for the proposed revision (over 15 people), and it includes multiple members knowledgeable on DB as well.

I feel I should be able to request the blog be looked at by calc group members to confirm the numbers and then apply it, unless there are more new points that need to be discussed still.

For the record I will be very busy tomorrow, so I wont be back to check on this and ask for some calc group members to look at the numbers until Saturday most likely. If anybody has anything left that needs to be addressed please mention it before then.
 
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I'm sorry to hear that, hopefully he feels better soon. If its going to be a couple days or even a couple weeks I think that's perfectly reasonable to wait if he wishes to give more input. If its going to be like a month or more we should preferably pass the revision though, or continue discussing new points if there are some left to discuss. He has already given input several times, and although his input is very much appreciated, we are capable of making a logical decision if need be, and there is already much support, and very clear and concise points. I think waiting up till Sat, April 24 for him is reasonable, although hopefully he recovers sooner. Best wishes.

Edit: For the time being I am going to ask the calc group to take a look at the numbers, that way we can have that part finished.
 
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Thank you for your consideration.
 
Yes, it does mean they are comparable, because we are told explicitly that by himself Watagash is relatively harmless. This is because he doesn't attack, he looks for a host, and that the power (ki) is increased based on the host. More ki = more power and speed. This is an accepted fact, precedent and relationship for DB unless you have explicit statements otherwise.
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Actually, ki has nothing to do with how Watagash affects the host. The targets he affected were all normal humans, yet Barry grew much stronger. This is literally stated in the episode that the more darkness there is in the host, the more stronger the host becomes. There is no relation of the host's power with Watagash, which holds true for the speed as well. And as I already pointed out, Watagash does not match the normal trope of more ki granting comparable power and speed since he has zero power, and only speed.

He left the body of the original robber the moment he lost, so clearly he can freely leave his hosts and will in a losing situation.
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After the fight was over. Not before, like you're implying.

If Watagash were vastly faster than Gohan or Barry he would have ran when Gohan went SSJ, or at the very least when he was going to kamehameha him.
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No because we don't know if Watagash is capable of leaving a host body at that speed. His travel speed has again no relation with his speed of acquiring or leaving a host.

Your argument basically boils down to "I think maybe base Watagash is faster than he is with a host", with no actual proof, just head canon
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No, my argument is that you have no proof that Watagash's speed scales to Barry. I don't have to assume anything, you have to show proof. Burden is on you.

So when you get time, please provide proof of Watagash's base speed scaling to Barry's form and we can move ahead. And thanks for waiting for me.
 
1) He is amping there ki, aka manipulating ki. Also he literally blows the top off the spaceship and his container, and we see a glimmer appear before indicating ki use. so he objectively uses ki and nothing suggests otherwise. You need to actually provide proof for claiming that he doesn't match more ki/power = more speed. Clearly he can use ki to induce explosions and blunt force like everybody else, he just doesn't attack since he is hiding and looking for hosts. So far all you have done is say he doesn't match that without any proof.

2) Irrelevant, the point is he can freely detach from the host and runs when in a losing situation. If he was vastly faster than Gohan he would have logically done the same and escaped.

3) Your using head canon. The fact is Watagash is shown to freely leave hosts without issues when in danger. Your head canon that he might be unable to leave the host contradicts the previous showings and has no basis in fact.

4) Quite the opposite actually. Watagash scales above his base with hosts due to having more power/ki, and thus more speed by default in DB. The accepted standard and precedent for DB is such. So burden of proof is on you. Until you actually have explicit proof that his base is vastly faster, or that he explicitly does not use ki to fly, your argument is built on head canon that he is faster in base, or does not conform to regular ki standards, and nothing more. You have yet to present actual proof of the notion that Watagash doesn't use ki like everybody else, or that his base is vastly faster. Also the fact he can't escape Gohan despite this vast speed discrepancy your claiming further implies that such a speed discrepancy simply does not exist.

So please present actual proof with scans, or concede the points since currently its just your opinion without proof to back it up.

No problem, hopefully your recovering well. VS debates are generally never personal for me, even if I sometimes am blunt in them, and real life issues are much more important.
 
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1. Amping ki via darkness in their hearts. This is not a usual power amp. Blowing the top of a spaceship means nothing when he is said to be harmless. Which means he can't do any significant damage to anybody in his base state. Yet he can fly faster than literal powerhouses in Z. That's all the proof that he doesn't follow the ki-power-speed principle that is normally followed by all the humanoids we see. We've been over this point.

2. No, your point was proven wrong. He detached only after his host lost. Your premise was wrong.

3. Again same as point 2. He never left any body mid-fight. We don't know how much time he requires to leave a host.

4. No. Watagash is no more when he takes over a host. It's the host whose power and speed increases beyond their normal capabilities due to having a darkness in their hearts. The host getting faster has no direct relation to Watagash's speed. Already proved how Watagash does not follow the accepted pattern of DB so the burden is on you to prove that the speed of the host is greater than Watagash's base speed.

So please present actual proof with scans, or concede the points since currently its just your opinion without proof to back it up.
 
1) He is still amplifying their ki via darkness in them. Simply increasing the evil of a person does nothing but make them bad people, that has to be converted somehow by Watagash to their ki, therefore Watagash is manipulating ki. Also blowing apart his containment and the top of the ship with a concussive energy blast means everything, the fact he is manifesting an energy explosion to escape proves he in fact can create explosions and concussive force, enough to escape containment and even force open an advanced spacecraft. So you are factually incorrect that he can't use ki offensively like everybody else, he has showcased the ability to manipulate ki in more than one way.

Also the notion that he is "faster than literal powerhouses in Z" is fallacious to begin with given he doesn't attempt to attack people directly, so we don't know where his power scales in base, just that it is below Gohan and his later forms, who is already above the likes of Namek Frieza etc. even in base, who are already in that MFTL-MFTL+ speed range.

2) Show me an actual statement that he can't detach from hosts at will. Burden of proof is on you to prove your assertion that he can't mid battle, since clearly he chooses to detach from the robber, proving he can choose when to detach, and I have yet to see it stated he can't detach from hosts at particular times.

3) You literally proved nothing, you just asserted "Watagash doesn't follow the normal pattern for more ki/power = more speed" but provided no actual explicit evidence that this is the case. Show an actual statement that his base form is faster than his far stronger forms with hosts, which are explicitly stronger/have more ki.

Please post the actual scans as explicit proof stating or showing Watagash base is vastly faster than his stronger forms, or that he doesn't use ki like everybody else and thus the standard rules for DB scaling can't be applied. And post the scan where it states explicitly that Watagash can't remove himself from a host during battle. Otherwise your using double standards by not applying the accepted standards for more ki/power = more speed in DB, and head canon for your assertion that he cant disconnect from Barry during the Gohan battle.
 
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1. Him amplifying other's ki via darkness in them is irrelevant to the speed relation between his original form and when he affects a host. All it means is that the host gets stronger and faster than the host's base form. Him breaking a container is meaningless when there is a clear cut statement that he is a harmless creature on his own, unable to hurt anybody, despite having enough speed to travel faster than anybody in Z. So the usual ki relation between strength and speed, doesn't hold with this parasite.

2. Don't strawman. I never said he can't detach from the host at will. But there is nothing stating about the speed at which he detaches, and given that he didn't detach in his first fight against Gohan, it is reasonable to conclude the same about the second fight.

3. You are blatantly ignoring information fed to us by the show and making up your own headcanon along the way. The evidence is present in the same episode.

This back and forth is going nowhere. You continue to ignore blatant evidence that goes against you and continue to present points that have no effect on whether his speed scales to his hosts.
 
So should we close this thread soon?
 
@AKM sama
1) I asserted him being able to convert their evil into ki is proof of a type of ki control, which it is since he is manipulating their ki, period. Not to mention blowing apart his containment and the top of Jaco's ship with an energy blast further proves that the statement of him being harmless doesn't mean he is literally powerless or doesnt have ki attacks like everybody else, it is referring to the fact he hides and tries to find a host in base, like was shown and elaborated upon, nothing about his actual power. So you have yet to provide a shred of proof that he doesn't follow the standard more power/ki = more speed, and we know for a fact the host with him has more power/ki, thus more speed baring an explicit statement, which you clearly don't have.

2) Watagash does detach as soon as his first host is overpowered to escape Gohan. So unless you can prove he needs specific requirements to detach there is no reason to believe he can't, and thus it is illogical to think he would be forced to eat Gohan's Kamehameha if his base was vastly faster, since he would simply have detached and ran like before. Unless you have actual proof he needs certain requirements to detach then your argument that he couldn't is complete head canon and contradicts his previous showings.

If the evidence is there then provide it, because so far all you have said is "he doesn't follow the normal use of ki because he is stated to be harmless" out of context, which was completely debunked since in context that refers to him not attacking directly in that form, only hiding and looking for a host, and we see him blow out of his containment and Jaco's ship to escape debunking the notion that he cannot use ki offensively the same way as everybody else.

So provide an actual explicit statement that he doesn't use normal ki, or that he is vastly faster in base, otherwise your claims that he doesn't scale normally like every other character in the franchise are complete head canon, and go against the DB scaling standards, and contradict him being unable to escape Gohan, despite the fact we know his inclination is to run in a losing scenario, and he can freely detach as seen earlier.

Edit: Oh, btw, its already accepted that the Watagash speed scales to Barry on the wiki right now as one of his reasonings for MFTL+, so clearly it is considered legit scaling already at this time by the wiki, and was by those who analyzed it.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Barry Kahn

Barry Kahn is an A-list actor from Dragon Ball set to play the Great Saiyaman in the film "Great Saiyaman vs Mister Satan." After Barry was rejected by Videl, he became increasingly jealous of Gohan and attempted to ruin his marriage, though without any success. Due to all the hatred Barry had...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
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1. That assertion doesn't establish a relation between Watagash's base speed and the power boost his hosts get. And no, blowing up a container and a door is still harmless, which is what Jaco said. Watagash taking over a host just to cause trouble on a planet also goes to show how harmless he is.

2. There is no "like before". Watagash took Gohan's blast before and did not detach prior. So I don't know what comparison you are trying to make here. Same goes for the second case too. Just because Watagash did not detach from his host and took Gohan's blast doesn't prove anything since he did the same thing before. It can be attributed to a number of reasons as I have already pointed out above.

No, you are mistaken again. Currently, Barry Kahn's speed scales to Gohan's. Not Watagash. He is MFTL+ for fighting Gohan. Honestly, the arguments are getting circular. You're repeating the same things and making me do the same. We can go on if you want, but is that really what you want here?
 
@Antvasima @AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus

At this point the arguments have become circular, so I am going to recommend we make a decision.

1) From my perspective AKM has yet to provide a shred of proof that Watagash does not follow the standard precedent for DB that every other character does of more power/ki = more speed in DB. He claims Watgash is "harmless" and therefore assumes he is vastly faster in base than stronger forms, which is a huge leap of logic in the first place as that is never stated, and one doesn't inherently equate to the other, and is out of context since that refers to Watagash not attacking in base, not his power or ability to destroy, and we know for a fact he has offensive power as he blows apart his containment and the top off Jacos ship. AKM says that means nothing, but his dismissal of it is what actually means nothing, the fact Watagash in base manipulates ki to attack and destroy is very telling, and debunks AKMs claim that he can only use it for speed, or that he doesn't follow standard scaling. AKM actually needs to provide serious explicit proof that Watagash is literally powerless despite his showings above, and therefore cannot be applied to the standard scaling, which he has failed to show.

2) Watagash fled from Gohan when the robber was stopped clearly showing he can and will detach in a losing scenario. It makes no sense to think he would be forced to take Gohan's attack if he was vastly faster in base form. The rest of AKM claims that he can't detach as to why he couldn't escape are unfounded and have no evidence to back them up.

I recommend that we acknowledge that AKM and DDM disagree with the revision, but unless they have new points to discuss we push the revision through for a few reasons.

1. From my perspective, AKM has failed to prove any of his points with explicit proof, only using leaps in logic and one out of context statement, that has been debunked already, and he is dismissing any contrary evidence that Watagash has offensive abilities such as Watagash being shown to blow apart his containment and the top of the ship, which show he is like everybody else who uses ki, and not literally powerless.

2. There is a very strong argument for the revisions, that has yet to be effectively proven wrong, and has the support of over 18 members, many of which are long time members knowledgeable about DB and the wiki's standards. With only 2 opposed. I know voting numbers isn't everything, but AKM himself has said that decisions should not be made by him alone, and when the vast majority are in favor of the revision, and they include many long time knowledgeable members on the verse, I feel that should have more weight than 2 others, even if they are staff.

3. The wiki already accepts Watagash as scaling to Barry right now as one of the reasons for his MFTL+ speed rating, so clearly when it was evaluated it made sense the first time around to everybody involved, and technically AKM should have to prove otherwise with some serious evidence to get it changed at all.

4. This is less important but a factor. It is highly consistent with the current speed ratings, so fits perfectly and makes sense. Right now even Namek 50% Frieza is MFTL, so Cell and Buu arc guys being low end MFTL+ via scaling makes perfect sense scaling wise, and quite frankly it would really help legitimize the numbers obtained from scaling from Piccolo's Moon beam that are already being used.

Anyhow, this is how I feel, and this should be concluded unless there are new points that somebody wants to discuss.
 
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