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The forgotten speed of Watagash

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I was intending "you" to refer to a general sense, not you specifically.

Anyway, sometimes I side with non-staff members over staff members, but I generally do not have the time to read all of the arguments in all of the threads that I follow, and as such have to trust the staff's senses of judgement, especially highly trusted and extremely helpful staff like AKM and Medeus.
 
@Antvasima

I understand that you and other staff work hard, and I don't think you are trying to be malicious. But it doesn't change the fact that you indirectly just admitted that non staff have no actual decision making power. Regular users can talk, and if the staff want to consider their stance they can, but ultimately they have no say if a staff disagrees. That is a dictatorship per definition, a small group of individuals who ultimately make all the decisions, and can choose to listen to the general populace, or not, as it suits them. I could get a hundred people who know DB to agree with a revision and it wouldn't matter if they weren't staff and AKM and DDM didn't agree from what I'm hearing. I'm not saying that every thread should solely be based on votes, but if the thread has the support of many trusted, long time knowledgeable members, is well structured and coherent, and the vast majority support it, then it should be a given that it likely is accurate, and passes, even if a couple staff disagree. Which is the case here.

Clearly choosing the opinion of 2 staff over a strong well structured argument, that over 20 people support, mostly knowledgeable long time members, and even some staff, which only gains more support by the day, is the wrong decision, and shows massive favoritism and double standards.

And I doubt that passing the revision would cause any such rift with AKM and DDM. If telling AKM and DDM that the revision is going through starts a "civil war" then they were unstable to begin with, but I doubt that would happen just because their arguments were rejected.
 
@AKM sama

You guys are fundamentally wrong about Watagash. The burden of proof is on you to prove beyond a doubt that Watagash does not follow the standard more power/ki = more speed, because the standard default in DB is to accept that fact unless there is strong evidence otherwise.

Your only claim to prove this was that Jaco said "He is harmless on his own", which does not mean literally powerless in the first place, so it is a leap in logic to argue that anyway. It refers to him not attacking people in base in context, which is elaborated on in the same monologue, and has been even further disproven by him using destructive explosions to escape, as well as surviving Gohan's kamehameha which hit and knocked him out, and was made to be enough to knock out Barry. So he has shown flight, offensive ki, and defensive ki which is at least somewhat comparable to Barry's level. More than enough proof, even though I didn't even need to prove it in the first place since burden of proof lies on you.

And the argument he needed a host to take over a planet is moot since he doesn't destroy in base by his very nature, so wouldn't even try to.

So burden of proof is on you to actually prove he works on a different system than everybody else, which is the default standard for all DB characters, or that his base is explicitly far faster than his more powerful forms, and Gohan for that matter whom he survived.

@DarkDragonMedeus

Frieza is tough, but Gohan doesn't scale to him. Not much else to say.

Tagoma surviving a gag attack from Gotenks doesn't really make him scale. If they actually had a serious fight sure, but they never did. and Gotenks even as SSJ3 is still not Mystic Gohan level.

Gohan powering up and Goku feeling it doesn't make Gohan stronger than Frieza, its unquantifiable. He was expending all his energy outward purposefully till he passed out to signal, Frieza did no such thing, so that doesn't make Gohan stronger than Frieza, who easily beat him.

ToP happened well after RoF, and everybody is way stronger. Also Frost is 3-A in ToP for sure, can't really use ToP standards for RoF scaling, but even looking at the humans power in ToP, Gohan would still be at that level with SSJ during RoF anyway.
 
Firestorm808 said:
In regards to this thread, we need to boil down the argument to it's base claim.

Do parasitic beings work similar to fusion in the DB verse?
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"It fuses and gives its host superhuman power. The greater the darkness in the host, the greater the power."

Looking at the quote, it is literally described as fusing with the host, and said to have greater power the greater the darkness in the hosts heart, so based on Jaco's explanation it adds its power to the hosts and amplifies all that based on the darkness in their heart.

Furthermore Watagash gets knocked out by Gohan's kamehameha to, so it implies that it is weaker than Barry was in that form on its own, although not massively so as it survives, if it was knocked out by being caught in the attack indirectly.
 
I think I agree with AKM here. As Watagash is "harmless" to Jaco and more ki = more power and speed, then naturally Jaco and everyone that scales to him would be MFTL+. Granted Jaco seems to have better reactions than others in his tier, but this would make a majority of the cast MFTL+ wouldn't it? Unless I'm missing something. It really seems like either everyone should scale, and thus it's definitely an outlier, or Watagash is different.
 
Mageman460 said:
I think I agree with AKM here. As Watagash is "harmless" to Jaco and more ki = more power and speed, then naturally Jaco and everyone that scales to him would be MFTL+. Granted Jaco seems to have better reactions than others in his tier, but this would make a majority of the cast MFTL+ wouldn't it? Unless I'm missing something. It really seems like either everyone should scale, and thus it's definitely an outlier, or Watagash is different.
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Jaco is referring to the fact Watagash wont attack in base, he hides and looks for a host, not that he is literally powerless, which is never actually said, as harmless =/= powerless inherently. He even says he is a dangerous criminal to in the same monologue. Also Jaco even feels the need to enlist Gohan to catch Watagash, and has never been able to defeat him solo. So scaling Jaco to him would likely not work. Furthermore Watagash has shown offensive skills like destroying his containment, and defensive ones like surviving Gohan's kamehameha. So the notion of him not being able to use ki for anything but flight or following a different standard is completely debunked and never actually directly stated.
 
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Mageman460 said:
I think I agree with AKM here. As Watagash is "harmless" to Jaco and more ki = more power and speed, then naturally Jaco and everyone that scales to him would be MFTL+. Granted Jaco seems to have better reactions than others in his tier, but this would make a majority of the cast MFTL+ wouldn't it? Unless I'm missing something. It really seems like either everyone should scale, and thus it's definitely an outlier, or Watagash is different.
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Jaco said he was harmeless & he cant escape but he did that debunks his OWN Statement
 
AKM sama said:
No because it functions on the basis of facts. Just because 20 people agree on something doesn't mean it's right. That is what's literally appeal to popularity. This whole thread is based on a bunch of assumptions and nothing more. It's not about disagreeing with your interpretation or having a different interpretation. It's about having a lack of evidence to prove a positive. I still don't get why any host should scale to Watagash's base speed and all of your reasons are based on assumptions with no particular basis. And seriously, the only argument you have is "why shouldn't it", for which there are several strong reasons. So obviously this thread has little reason to get accepted.

Now we can obviously talk about the RoF Gohan thing that was brought up earlier.
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Using the word facts in your supposed argument is totally wrong considering your whole point is that watagash is supposedly harmless even though that doesn't mean weak or powerless considering there's real life animals that are harmless due to their nature yet can be deadly by the mere touch.

We see watagash use Ki to escape Jacos space ship:


An what does ki increase in Dragon ball? Speed , Strength and durability.

Honestly this one is pretty straight forward and blatant.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
I understand that you and other staff work hard, and I don't think you are trying to be malicious. But it doesn't change the fact that you indirectly just admitted that non staff have no actual decision making power. Regular users can talk, and if the staff want to consider their stance they can, but ultimately they have no say if a staff disagrees. That is a dictatorship per definition, a small group of individuals who ultimately make all the decisions, and can choose to listen to the general populace, or not, as it suits them. I could get a hundred people who know DB to agree with a revision and it wouldn't matter if they weren't staff and AKM and DDM didn't agree from what I'm hearing. I'm not saying that every thread should solely be based on votes, but if the thread has the support of many trusted, long time knowledgeable members, is well structured and coherent, and the vast majority support it, then it should be a given that it likely is accurate, and passes, even if a couple staff disagree. Which is the case here.

Clearly choosing the opinion of 2 staff over a strong well structured argument, that over 20 people support, mostly knowledgeable long time members, and even some staff, which only gains more support by the day, is the wrong decision, and shows massive favoritism and double standards.

And I doubt that passing the revision would cause any such rift with AKM and DDM. If telling AKM and DDM that the revision is going through starts a "civil war" then they were unstable to begin with, but I doubt that would happen just because their arguments were rejected.
Click to expand...
Look, we unfortunately have no better alternative in order to make this community work properly than to try to find the most reliable, rational, and fairminded regular members and make them staff, who then act as buffers by evaluating and deciding what seems to make sense of the arguments from the regular members. Sometimes mistakes are made, but in most cases it works well. This is not new information. I have repeated this over and over for a long time now, and our only alternative would be war of attrition popularity contests with everything decided by who can gather the greatest amounts of Discord supporters of a series, and resulting neverending edit-wars

That said, in this case I am personally rather uncertain, as both sides have some good points, but Medeus and AKM make a bit more sense to me, and I am also personally reluctant to backscale between different DB series based on such an uncertain premise, that also happened in a filler episode not written by Toriyama and somehow retroactively affecting scaling in the manga that he wrote himself decades earlier.

Medeus and AKM are also two of the most hardworking and helpful staff members except for myself right now, so I don't want to go around undermining their authorities. They know this series better than I do, so I have to trust their senses of judgement.
 
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Antvasima said:
Anyway, Firestorm is usually very rational. Is somebody willing to help him out?
Click to expand...
According to the show, it describes the parasite as using a form of fusion.
SSJRyu1 said:
"It fuses and gives its host superhuman power. The greater the darkness in the host, the greater the power."

Looking at the quote, it is literally described as fusing with the host, and said to have greater power the greater the darkness in the hosts heart, so based on Jaco's explanation it adds its power to the hosts and amplifies all that based on the darkness in their heart.

Furthermore Watagash gets knocked out by Gohan's kamehameha to, so it implies that it is weaker than Barry was in that form on its own, although not massively so as it survives, if it was knocked out by being caught in the attack indirectly.
Click to expand...
 
Just a note that we do not run this community like a tyranny. We run it like a business managed by well-intentioned unpaid volunteer workers.

Regular members genuinely do get a massive amount of opportunity to offer input and information, and constantly berate us as well without any negative consequences, as seen above for example, but the final decisions are usually taken by our official staff.
 
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I'll contact more staff members who would be willing to take a look into it and aren't busy with something else atm. I guess taking their views on which stance they feel seems more correct is the last thing that can be done here.
 
To be fair you just asked @Firestorm808 for staff input, and said you trust his judgment and he is rational, and he quoted me verbatim agreeing. You already have over 20 regular members supporting it, most of which are long time knowledgeable members, as well as long time knowledgeable staff to. Realistically it should be more than enough at this point.

Edit: I am glad to know definitively where all decision making power ultimately lies in the wiki.
 
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2be.gif

Don't mind me I'm just interested at this beef, no offense.
 
Look, I think that I generally am trying my best to be helpful to regular members, but I just much prefer much more certainty before we apply rather drastic revisions like this, especially as it would backscale between a filler anime episode not written by Toriyama to the manga that he wrote himself over 20 years earlier, and AKM and Medeus are two of the most hardworking and reliable staff members in this entire wiki.

I was also never quite sure what Firestorm thinks about this.

Why is this so extremely important for you anyway? You have had several other revisions accepted.
 
Maybe a solution could be to backscale only to the profile of the Toei DBZ versions of Goku and other characters in that continuity? I am not sure. It depends on what the other staff members here think. It might cause a mess with the DBGT pages that are unrelated to Dragon Ball Super.
 
I'm not sure if I qualify for a knowledgeable member but I do wanna say that this being filler shouldn't really matter. Filler is canon in DBS as filler arcs like Copy Vegeta and Mini Hit arc were outright referenced in the Goku Black and ToP arc's. Infact Toriyama himself at one point even acknowledged the good work the anime staff did with filler in the DBZ anime, pretty much giving his approval.

Also from my knowledge DBS is considered canon to the DBZ manga not the anime here so this really can't be backscaled to the anime, unless we consider the DBZ anime canon to the DBS anime.
 
@Antvasima
Watagash isn't considered "filler". All DBS anime is considered canon to the manga on the wiki. Basically AT gives a point form summary of how he wants the story to progress, and then the manga and anime flesh that out, with everything in the DBS anime being "canon" to the manga on the wiki.

I do believe you try your best to help the wiki. However when over 20 knowledgeable individuals can be easily ignored and overruled by 2 others who are not really more knowledgeable than many of them, just have a title, it is a huge oversight.

@Firestorm808 said he feels the same way as myself. He says that they treat Watagash like a fusion, and then quotes me as he has the same reasoning as me.

The revision from my, and over 20 others perspectives is in and of itself very blatant and strong. Also it is important as it greatly helps establish the speed tier of all original DB. But more than that, the response to it is overwhelming. It has more support than almost any other revision I have seen, yet it is being held up and potentially rejected because two people don't agree, staff or not. It seems to show a much deeper issue beyond just the revision if one or two staff ultimately can overturn any revision they wish no matter how much support it has, or how much sense it makes.

Obviously we can't just accept everything based on vote, but knowledgeable members should have direct input on if something gets passed quite frankly. Obviously each case would be somewhat different, but in this case you yourself admit that the argument for revision actually makes sense as well with good points, even if you want to support AKM. Also it is not even close in terms of support for or against it, the response is overwhelmingly in favor of the revision, and most of those who are in favor of it are knowledgeable about DB and the wiki standards, so its not just a bunch of random people who have no knowledge about the verse or arguments. Not to mention even some staff agree, who are promoted because you explicitly trust them. Taking all this into account everybody who is giving input should have some weight to their support since they know what they are talking about, and even firestorm, a staff member you said that you trust and is reasonable agrees with the Watagash points I made.

So you have over 20 knowledgeable regular members in favor of it, and even other trusted staff in favor of it, and 2 staff opposed. It seems pretty obvious to me at least that in this case it makes much more sense to pass the revision. The only way it wouldn't pass is if AKM and DDM are basically allowed to choose what gets passed and what doesn't regardless of its merit or support, in which case there is not even a point to having CRT's if they just get to choose what gets passed at the end of the day anyway.
 
Dragon Ball Super Anime doesn't have filler, both the anime and the manga are based on a guideline Toriyama wrote and gave to Toei (for the Anime) and Toyataro (For the manga), to fill in the rest with their own details, including the re-tellings of Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F

This means that even arcs such as the copy Vegeta Saga and the episode between Black Saga to ToP Saga are canon. Which also includes stuff such as Goku VS Hit, which is 100% canon too
 
Dagoth_OwO said:
I'm not sure if I qualify for a knowledgeable member but I do wanna say that this being filler shouldn't really matter. Filler is canon in DBS as filler arcs like Copy Vegeta and Mini Hit arc were outright referenced in the Goku Black and ToP arc's. Infact Toriyama himself at one point even acknowledged the good work the anime staff did with filler in the DBZ anime, pretty much giving his approval.

Also from my knowledge DBS is considered canon to the DBZ manga not the anime here so this really can't be backscaled to the anime, unless we consider the DBZ anime canon to the DBS anime.
Click to expand...
I can vouch, you are a knowledgeable member XD
 
We consider the DBZ manga as canon to the DBS anime and the DB Chou manga, but given that both are essentially two official continuations, with Toriyama favouring the latter, which he has closer control over, it seems very uncertain to use backscaling to such an extreme degree, with over 20 years separating the stories, especially if Toriyama has not made specific statements about the DBS anime filler episodes, and has not adapted them to the Chou manga.

All of this, combined with the concerns of Medeus and AKM, gives an intense wibe of uncertainty here, and in such cases it tends to be best to do nothing, or write a footnote explanation about the situation in some wiki page.
 
@Antvasima We treat the DBS anime as canon to the manga, and the wiki uses it as the main continuity. We literally scale things like Planet Vegeta's destruction from it already, as well as cosmology in regards to the many galaxies shown in the DBS anime. This isn't even part of the revision, it is accepted already that the DBS anime scales to the original manga.

AKM and DDM disagree, but over 20 knowledgeable members and even knowledgeable staff like @Firestorm808 agree with the revision. AKM should not be the sole decider of revisions. Nobody should.
 
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Well, I disagree with backscaling the anime to the 20+ years older manga in very uncertain cases like this, and would much rather try to follow the original author's intentions.

Our staff are supposed to try to put in the brakes in these types of situations, to not make our pages unreliable. Is it really so horrible to not get every single DB upgrade revision accepted? I have personally helped to accept several of them recently.
 
Antvasima said:
Our staff are supposed to try to put in the brakes in these types of situations, to not make our pages unreliable. Is it really so horrible to not get every single DB upgrade revision accepted? I have personally helped to accept several of them recently.
Click to expand...
With all due respect, Ant, I don't believe the problem is the upgrade revisions getting accepted or not, but rather that, especially in this scenario, several knowledgeable members (including a staff member) agree with the OP, all the while a single or a small group of staff members disagree, and you choose the latter. We understand that you are more in favor of the disagreeing staff's arguments for their senses of judgement, but I do not believe that this should necessarily be the case when you have many other knowledgeable members against said staff's arguments, with one of those being a staff member themselves.

Again, no disrespect to you, but I believe that something like this would seem to go in the favor of the OP rather than simply one or two staff members disagreeing.
 
My apologies, but there are too many uncertainty factors in play here for me to be able to accept this in good conscience. Reliability in our profile pages is the most important issue, and again, this is far too uncertain to apply.
 
@Antvasima
DBS anime is the official continuation to DBZ, it even started before the DBS manga, which was originally promotional material for the anime (it later became its own more separate thing though). The authors intention is that it directly scales and takes place in the same continuity. Its not like using GT or games, it is the official legit continuation of the manga as accepted by AT. Not accepting the revision on the basis that DBS was made later doesn't make sense. You can have authors take a break, but when the work continues it is still just as valid if they consider it a continuation of their work.

In this particular case it would be horrible for the revision to not get passed as things stand, since it would show massive favoritism. I have been involved in many revisions that didn't get passed when I felt they should, but I respectfully agree to disagree and leave it for the time being because there was as much or more support from the opposition. I do not consider it OK or helpful to try and force my stance on others when the majority of knowledgeable members disagree is why I did this. However in this particular case the vast majority agree with the revision, most of which are knowledgeable about DB and the wiki, and not just random people, as well as a trusted staff that you asked to help settle the issue, who then agreed with the revision as well. Not to mention the argument is important for all Post Frieza speed scaling, and extremely strong from all our perspectives. So this time has very different circumstances surrounding it.
 
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Other then the argument about Speed = Power, the only problem I have with this CRT is that the basis is literally sounds like association fallacy.
 
DivineAura44 said:
Other then the argument about Speed = Power, the only problem I have with this CRT is that the basis is literally sounds like association fallacy.
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In Dragon Ball it is a generally accepted fact that more power/ki = more speed. It's been confirmed by statements and showings alike since the start of the series. This is an accepted standard on the wiki, and is the basis for much of the stats, which come from scaling in DB since we know their speed is higher as their AP gets higher, thus we can safely scale both. Unless somebody can prove without a doubt that a particular character doesn't follow that system, like with Trunks when he is explicitly said to have lost speed in his buff form, then it is assumed they do follow that extremely consistent and stated pattern.
 
From the Fallacies page:

This is when someone claims that since A has certain qualities, and B is in some way associated with A, then B has those qualities as well, without actual proof of this.

Example: "Many Naruto ninjas use genjutsu. Therefore Gai knows genjutsu as well."

While this could be possible, there is no confirmation, and merely because other ninjas know it doesn't mean he does.

How is what Ryu suggest a fallacy?
 
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