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The forgotten speed of Watagash

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From my perspective AKM has yet to provide a shred of proof that Watagash does not follow the standard precedent for DB that every other character does of more power/ki = more speed in DB. He claims Watgash is "harmless" and therefore assumes he is vastly faster in base than stronger forms, which is a huge leap of logic in the first place as that is never stated
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From my perspective, Ryu has yet to provide a single shred of evidence that Watagash follows the standard precedent of DB, because he can't. Because the show literally proves otherwise. Watagash is an alien parasite who is vastly faster than any of the humanoid powerhouses and is still harmless on his own, which in this instant means that he is weak so can't physically harm others like a normal prisoner the galactic patrol deals with. He needs a host just to take over a planet. It's all evidenced in the show. The fact that he can break a container and open a door does not prove otherwise, it's still harmless. It doesn't matter if I am MFTL+, if I am in a car, I can only accelerate to the Car's potential.

Watagash fled from Gohan when the robber was stopped clearly showing he can and will detach in a losing scenario.
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A lie Ryu keeps telling even after I told him to stop lying several times. You can see the episode 73, Watagash never detached from the host until the host actually lost his consciousness. So this point is moot.

From my perspective, AKM has failed to prove any of his points with explicit proof, only using leaps in logic and one out of context statement
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Ryu is blatantly lying and and hasn't provided a single shred of proof to prove the positive. We have no reason to relate Watagash's base speed to the speed of the hosts, and Ryu has failed to provide any convincing evidence. All he has provided are leaps in logic and assumptions that are baseless.

There is a very strong argument for the revisions, that has yet to be effectively proven wrong, and has the support of over 18 members, many of which are long time members knowledgeable about DB and the wiki's standards
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There is no strong argument, as I have pointed out many times. And this is appeal to popularity. We don't decide ratings based on popularity votes of fans for obvious reasons.

The wiki already accepts Watagash as scaling to Barry right now as one of the reasons for his MFTL+ speed rating, so clearly when it was evaluated it made sense the first time around to everybody involved, and technically AKM should have to prove otherwise with some serious evidence to get it changed at all
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A blatant lie once again even after I told him otherwise. The wiki only puts Barry at MFTL+ because he scales to Gohan, that's the main reason stated o his profile. The Watagash point is only supporting and needs to be removed if it's causing confusion. Also, it's because somehow the profile also has an image of Watagash, I don't know why. The one who made the profile probably got confused and merged Watagash and Barry together when both are different characters.
 
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Well, AKM seems to make good sense and he usually has a better sense of judgement than I do, but we need to try to be polite to each other. Ryu is not a bad guy.
 
I am calm. Don't misunderstand me, I have a lot of respect for Ryu since he often brings up good points and is a knowledgeable member who is always calm and polite no matter what. Maybe you could read my post in a rude tone, but that was not my intention. I was just pointing out how Ryu was blatantly ignoring the points in this case after I repeatedly brought them up, and presenting the facts in a completely wrong manner, knowingly so. If I am misinterpreting him however, then I apologize, but he is still being ignorant and misrepresenting the events even if not on purpose. And I respectfully strongly disagree with him.
 
@AKM sama

Your opinion is noted, however the points are still the same as last time, therefore there is no reason for me to reiterate the arguments I just explained above, and my stance on the topic, as well as how I believe it should be handled at this point, is still the same as I expressed in my previous post.

@Antvasima
You will have to make an executive decision here tbh, since the vast majority on the thread do not agree with AKMs interpretation, and he and DDM won't agree with ours. There is no point in continuously repeating the arguments since they are circular now. So are you going to put through something that now over 20 members support, including many knowledgeable long time ones, or refuse it because AKM and DDM don't agree? That's basically what needs to be decided.
 
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I am still too tied up to really comment, I still have doubts about some U6 cast downgrades but I will need to tackle that later when I'm up for it and I rewatch some of those episodes of RoF saga.

But as for the Barry Kahn and Watagash feat, I still agree with AKM Sama regarding the Ki statement and him being a special case who breaks that cycle. But anyway, Watagash in his parasitic form is not even strong enough to break out of a glass jar, which is easily broken by rather basic levels of force. And even Jaco can easily over power him. So if we're going to use the Ki assumption, then pretty much everyone stronger than Jaco would scale accordingly. And I really do not need to explain how loopholish it would be for every single Moon level and above character to be Massively FTL+. Or even better yet, Watagash is even implied to be physically weaker than a stereotypical outlaw who is physically weaker than Mister Satan. So are Mister Satan, Kid Goku, ect Massively FTL+ too?

Also, I wouldn't call Ryu lying, more so misunderstanding some things AKM Sama said or overlooked some showings of evidence AKM did show.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I am still too tied up to really comment, I still have doubts about some U6 cast downgrades but I will need to tackle that later when I'm up for it and I rewatch some of those episodes of RoF saga.

But as for the Barry Kahn and Watagash feat, I still agree with AKM Sama regarding the Ki statement and him being a special case who breaks that cycle. But anyway, Watagash in his parasitic form is not even strong enough to break out of a glass jar, which is easily broken by rather basic levels of force. And even Jaco can easily over power him. So if we're going to use the Ki assumption, then pretty much everyone stronger than Jaco would scale accordingly. And I really do not need to explain how loopholish it would be for every single Moon level and above character to be Massively FTL+. Or even better yet, Watagash is even implied to be physically weaker than a stereotypical outlaw who is physically weaker than Mister Satan. So are Mister Satan, Kid Goku, ect Massively FTL+ too?

Also, I wouldn't call Ryu lying, more so misunderstanding some things AKM Sama said or overlooked some showings of evidence AKM did show.
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To be fair this "Jar" clearly has electronic parts and is no ordinary jar, it is a Galactic patrol containment device for transportation, and they are a super advanced group that can house relatively powerful villains, which Watagash does break, twice in that form. Not to mention a mftl+ space ship would logically be extremely durable to be able to survive travel at those speeds. Also, Jaco never overpowers Watagash to my knowledge, and Watagash is considered extremely dangerous, Watagash is only caught because he is knocked out by Gohan, and Jaco feels the need to use a canon extension on his ship to try and destroy Watagash when he thinks it has fused with Gohan, as well as enlist Gohan's help when realizing he isn't infected. So I don't think Jaco scaling to Watagash would make sense.

Realistically burden of proof falls on AKM to prove that Watagash unquestionably doesn't follow the scaling standards, since as they are the standards they are the default unless explicitly proven otherwise. AKMs only argument as proof is that "Jaco says he is harmless", but I feel the fact Watagash has shown to be able to offensively destroy things meant to contain him by a galactic police force, and things that can survive travel at mftl+ speeds with energy blasts proves he is not literally powerless. Also the statement of him being harmless is in reference to him not attacking people directly in that form as opposed to literally having little to no destructive power given the context of the plot and what he actually does.

And you are correct, I have no intention of lying to anybody, as I said, it is my perspective on the matter.
 
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Actually, one more strong piece of evidence that Watagash has standard ki capabilities like everybody else is that although the parasite itself was knocked out by being caught in Gohan's kamehameha, he survived it, despite it being strong enough to overpower Barry, who is at least base Gohan level in that form, and we know it impacted Watagash as it is what immobilizes him. Unlike with the robber the first time, where he incidentally tanks Gohans energy blast without harm to. We even see the majority of Watagash exposed on Barry's head to the impact. So it further shows he is somewhat comparable in durability to characters in that range of power.

 
Summary of events from my perspective:
  • Episode 73
    • 2:13
      • "That's Watagash. It doesn't look it, but it's a diabolical wanted criminal."
      • "Don't worry. It's already sealed away. It has no chance of escape."
      • Watagash breaks the container's glass then Fully breaks out of the container and the ship.
    • 15:24
      • Watagash bonds with one of the robbers. Once bonded, he is detected by the spaceship radar.
      • The bonded robber shows an increase in speed and power as he attack rushes Gohan, though Gohan is able to dodge all his strikes.
      • Gohan stops the bonded man with one kick. He is shown leaning against debris, but his eyes aren't shown. No groaning is heard.
      • Gohan preps a Kamehameha before switching to a smaller beam.
      • The smoke clears, showing the robbers down and groaning in pain. Watagash is shown unharmed and unbonded, slipping out of the man's boot.
  • Episode 74
    • 3:43
      • Watagash is described as a mental parasite. On its own it's harmless. It's drawn to and latches on to the darkness in people's hearts. It fuses and gives its host superhuman power. The greater the darkness in the host, the greater the power.
    • 11:42
      • Watagash bonds with Barry.
    • 12:11
      • Bonded Barry breaks through the wall and surprises Gohan, knocking him out.
    • 13:49
      • Bonded Barry powers up, growing and transforming. He and Gohan meet punches at about equal strength.
      • Gohan is able to fly out of the way of Barry's strikes before punching him in the gut, sending him to the street below.
      • Bonded Barry powers up, growing and transforming once more.
      • Bonded Barry's new speed doesn't give Gohan enough time to react, landing a damaging blow on Gohan.
      • Gohan narrowly dodges the energy beams before getting speed blitzed and punched again.
      • Gohan powers up but is once again speed blitzed before getting hit by the energy beams.
      • In the upper atmosphere, Gohan gets back up and turns SSJ.
      • Bonded Barry powers up again as Gohan charges a Kamehameha.
      • The held-back Kamehameha overpowers the energy beam, leaving Barry and Watagash knocked out.
      • Once again. Watagash breaks out.
 
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The current precedents of the Dragon Ball universe are that more Ki/power = more speed and fusing is at least the sum of its parts.

With Watagash, the initial fusing is Watagash + Host, and this initial value is further enhanced by mental state.

More Darkness = More power/ki = more speed.

(Watagash + Host) + Darkness Amp
 
Well, I still think that AKM and Medeus seem to make good sense here. My apologies Ryu.
 
Can someome remind me what was said in opposition to Watagash's bonding not giving at least his base speed with his initial bonding and later transformations as with other fusion occurrences? Why do we think it deviates from the norm?
 
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Firestorm808 said:
Can someome remind me what was said in opposition to Watagash's bonding not giving at least his base speed with his initial bonding and later transformations as with other fusion occurrences? Why do we think it deviates from the norm?
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To my knowledge the only argument that Watagash base doesn't follow the normal standards was that Jaco said "On its own it's harmless."

Which as I outlined above is a leap in logic in the first place to assume that it means he has literally no offensive power or follows different standards, and in context refers to the fact it hides and doesn't directly attack, not him being powerless or following different standards. And the notion that he literally has no power is debunked by Watagash actual showings anyway.
 
Firestorm808 said:
If Wagatash was still bonded to the robber when he got ki blasted at the end, it would have been knocked out along with the robber much as he did with Barry.
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Not if the blast he was hit with isn't strong enough. Gohan used a very mild blast against the robbers because he knew they were simply humans and not as strong. He however, used kamehameha against Barry.
Firestorm808 said:
Can someome remind me what was said in opposition to Watagash's bonding not giving at least his base speed with his initial bonding and later transformations as with other fusion occurrences? Why do we think it deviates from the norm?
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Because it's not fusion. Watagash is a parasite who increases the capabilities of his host in proportion to the darkness in them. He doesn't impart his own power to them. We also know Watagash does not follow the usual norm of more speed means more ki and more power because while we know he has speed greater than many Z characters, he is still a harmless creature on his own with no offensive power that can be interpreted as dangerous, as should be the case if he followed the norm.
 
If we want to make a comparison, Watagash possessing Barry Kahn is more correlated to that super heart virus infecting Goku than it use Fusion Dance/Potara Earrings fusion.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
If we want to make a comparison, Watagash possessing Barry Kahn is more correlated to that super heart virus infecting Goku than it use Fusion Dance/Potara Earrings fusion.
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The Heart Virus didn't posses Goku though, and it did a completely different thing than what Watagash did to Barry Kahn or the robbers.

If anything, this is likely more similar to how Baby from GT works
 
Well, that's actually true. But I was just giving comparison to a parasite infection rather than a fusion technigue/power up. But the Baby example is most accurate yes. There are also similarities to Babidi amplifying the people who have evil desires.
 
Yes, Babidi and the Namek Elder power-ups seem most similar to how the Watagash works.
 
Comparing Watagash to others like Baby or Babidi is fine, but it means nothing in terms of proving that he works on a different scale than everybody else as those are just observations of some similarities, not actual official comparisons in the show.

Fact is, the standard is if you can't explicitly prove a being doesn't follow the normal standards of more ki/power = more speed, that is the default in DB. Watagash in base is never said to be faster in base than other forms, or to not follow normal stadnards, so no explicit proof there.

Watagash has shown to have offensive capabilities by generating explosions to escape so we know he has offensive energy abilities like everybody else.

Watagash has literally survived Gohan's Kamehameha meant to knock out Barry, despite being explicitly hit by it, hence why he was knocked out, showing his ability to manipulate ki defensively like everybody else.

The only real argument that was made is "Jaco says he is harmless", but harmless =/= powerless or different standard inherently, so that argument that this means he has no power or doesn't follow the standard was a huge leap in logic to start with. And the notion that he is literally powerless was debunked completely when he used offensive energy blasts to escape, and even further debunked when he showed defensive power able to survive Gohan's kamehameha, putting him somewhat comparable to Barry in that form.

So there is no reasonable standing argument to imply that he does not follow the regular standards in base, and a lot to actually substantiate that he does, and thus he does scale.
 
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I suppose that AKM and Medeus will have to continue to argue here for a while longer.
 
I like how people think breaking a container means he is harmful and debunks Jaco's statement of him being harmless on his own and only doing any harm when possessing people. In the past, he needed a host simply to take over a planet. Not destroy, just to take control of. That's really a god tier argument and I honestly have nothing to say against that.

I don't feel the need to continue arguing this simply because people don't know how to give up. Literally everything has been said here already.
 
@AKM sama
I would agree, everything that needs to be said has been, and clearly like you say he is not literally powerless, and you can't realistically argue against that. Also Watagash nature is to find a host, not destroy, so moot point since he wouldn't even try to destroy anything in base aside from to escape.

@Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus
Over the last 3 weeks since the time the thread has been open there has been overwhelming support for the revision. Only 2 people have even argued against it. May I add both were openly against MFTL+ DBZ before the thread even opened, so there was a conflict of interest in the first place. At this point over 20 people, including many long time knowledgeable members, and even staff like Firestorm (agrees with Watagash points at least from his posts), agree with the revision, and the number just keeps growing.

Clearly the right thing to do is apply the revision now due to the vast majority supporting it for over 3 weeks, unless there are new arguments to discuss, even if you personally don't agree. Fact is everybody is fallible, so no one or two people should be making all the decisions, especially over around 20 knowledgeable individuals.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
May I add both were openly against MFTL+ DBZ before the thread even opened, so there was a conflict of interest in the first place.
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Assuming intent is not nice. I am DB supporter and would want DB to get higher ratings too. Hell, I used to think they should be MFTL+ via multiplier stacking some years back. Anyway, the point is about there being a lack of good evidence and keeping the ratings accurate. I can say the same about intents of other people that they are fans who just want to wank their favorite verse and their opinions should not be taken into account.
 
@AKM sama
I never said your stance should not be taken into account my man, in fact I said earlier it is good to hear your input. I was just pointing out that there may have been a preconceived stance ahead of time, as both of you said you don't agree with MFTL+ DBZ days before. Either way the argument about intent is unprovable on either side and not relevant to the thread, and I'm not interested in derailing.

My other points still stand and I believe you should honor your position as a moderator and put the revision through given the vast majority support of it, including many knowledgeable member and some staff, even if you personally have reservations.
 
Well, AKM and Medeus make good sense, and it is part of the staff's job to act as buffers against exaggerated statistics, and we do not make decisions via popularity contests.

My apologies, but since this won't get accepted, we should probably close the thread.
 
Well, again, even though I really like Dragon Ball Super, I must try to remain impartial, and it is part of the staff's job to act as buffers against anything that seems unreliable.
 
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