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I mean, that's how it works in DB. You would need proof of the opposite, aka proof of Watagash not following this kind of system
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The forgotten speed of Watagash
- Thread starter SSJRyu1
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Are you absolutely certain that even filler anime episodes are considered to be canon to the original manga by Toriyama himself? It seems very counter-intuitive to me, and then there is the issue that even Jaco could supposedly handle the Watagash on its own and that it could be imprisoned in a jar. Again, I am currently very uneasy with the sum totality of this entire issue. There seem to be too many question marks for us to be able to say anything for certain in our profile pages.
Anyway, AKM was going to ask some more staff to evaluate this. Maybe we can simply wait a while for that.
Anyway, AKM was going to ask some more staff to evaluate this. Maybe we can simply wait a while for that.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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There's literally no filler in Super. All of it is Canon.
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,310
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The Chou Manga and Super Anime are different Continuities so that wouldn't make any sense, especially seeing as the Manga was trying to catch up to the Anime at the time seeing as the Anime came out first.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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The Anime came before the Chou Manga though
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I'll try to get my argument across one more time before calling more staff to look at this.
Say, Watagash's own speed is 1000. We know any other humanoid's strength would have been proportional to that value, and would also be 1000. But we know Watagash is harmless and weak. So we'll assume his strength to be 5. It doesn't really matter though.
Now, according to what we know, Watagash latches on to a host an amplifies the host's power according to how evil the host is.
Say, the host's base speed and base strength are 5 units, and the darkness in his heart is 20.
Watagash will attach to this host and make his strength and speed 5*20 = 100
If the host's base speed and base strength are 20 units, but the darkness in his heart is 100.
Then the host's stats would be amplified to 20*100 = 2000
This is an example of how we know Watagash works. I don't see why the host's speed would automatically become over 1000.
And for the argument that Watagash is a harmful character who is faster than anybody in DBZ, and that also makes him stronger than anybody in DBZ, as some people are trying to say, despite Watagash being called a harmless character, there is a contradiction to that in the show itself.
Even if you assume Watagash's speed and strength both are 1000 units, and any host he latches on to upscales from that value, then that should have made the bank robber stronger than anybody in DBZ. We know that's not the case because he was defeated easily by base Gohan. So that point is debunked by the show itself.
Say, Watagash's own speed is 1000. We know any other humanoid's strength would have been proportional to that value, and would also be 1000. But we know Watagash is harmless and weak. So we'll assume his strength to be 5. It doesn't really matter though.
Now, according to what we know, Watagash latches on to a host an amplifies the host's power according to how evil the host is.
Say, the host's base speed and base strength are 5 units, and the darkness in his heart is 20.
Watagash will attach to this host and make his strength and speed 5*20 = 100
If the host's base speed and base strength are 20 units, but the darkness in his heart is 100.
Then the host's stats would be amplified to 20*100 = 2000
This is an example of how we know Watagash works. I don't see why the host's speed would automatically become over 1000.
And for the argument that Watagash is a harmful character who is faster than anybody in DBZ, and that also makes him stronger than anybody in DBZ, as some people are trying to say, despite Watagash being called a harmless character, there is a contradiction to that in the show itself.
Even if you assume Watagash's speed and strength both are 1000 units, and any host he latches on to upscales from that value, then that should have made the bank robber stronger than anybody in DBZ. We know that's not the case because he was defeated easily by base Gohan. So that point is debunked by the show itself.
Vietthai96
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Toriyama just threw the skeleton out, Toei and Toro are nearly free to make a body over it, just don't goes too far
So my conclusion here is stop using multiplier with solid number
Now that too much assumption, using math here is useless, you can't just assume "darkness in his heart" with number and use multiplier on it, the only thing we know is, the stronger the darkness is, the stronger the host can become. Now if we use math, the bank rober "darkness" could be 20 like you said, or it is just 0.1 and Watagash strength fuse with Bank Rober could just be downscale rather than upscale, so no, i think we should stop using this kind of math. Or i could just use multiplier to upgrade ToP SSB and UIO Goku Low 2-C key onward into Infinite speed cause his SSB and his UIO/UI form upscaled him to the level of AP that Infinitely stronger than his "weaker than SSB" form, and if he goes infinitely stronger in AP mean his Ki level also goes infinitely higher, and we have increasing in Ki = increasing in both AP and Speed, mean his speed also increasing infinitely higher.
So my conclusion here is stop using multiplier with solid number
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If that's how it works, then I agree that characters shouldn't automatically be scaling to this MFTL+ travel feat.
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It's not the math. It's the concept of how it works and why the alternative doesn't fit is what I am trying to get across. Don't focus on numbers.
Secondly, why would Watagash latch on to a host that would decrease his base strength? His parasitic nature is only explained to provide a boost, not a debuff. Your logic doesn't work with the position you hold. And it's not what happened with the bank robber either.
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Vietthai96
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That why i said don't use math, because if his darkness are just 0.1 or 1 or anything lower, the whole concept is falling apart. Also using your concept, if the darkness is just 1.1, yes possibly 1000*1.1= 1100, still a boost in power. Well it sleep time in my country so i will goes sleep and come back tomorrow, after work
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Because that's literally the fundamentals of Dragon Ball.
Yes, and I never said you were saying it was wrong either, if we're going to nitpick specific wording.
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Strength and speed in DB are not always proportional. Two of the biggest examples are Dyspo and UIS Goku. Dyspo was significantly faster than Frieza but even in his base form he was barely damaged by Dyspo. UIS Goku’s attacks were described as "wimpy" to Kefla but he was blitzing her the entire time.
Well since I gave examples of characters having disproportionate strength and speed, hopefully that’ll clear up why you "don’t see it." After all, Watagash is a 10-C parasite that blitzes Nappa. Just because something sounds unbelievable doesn’t make it true.
How would that make him faster than anyone in DBZ when he scales to an out of shape base Gohan?
Again why would that mean he’s stronger than everyone in DBZ? The entire point of this CRT is for basically everyone in DBZ, post Frieza, faster than Watagash.
I could literally ask you the same thing about AP
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- Thread starter
- #254
It's not how it works. That is complete head canon. It is never said that Watagash doesn't follow the normal progression of more speed = power, nor that his base form is vastly faster than his later forms.
All that is said by Jaco is "On its own it's harmless. It's drawn to and latches on to the darkness in people's hearts. It fuses and gives its host superhuman power. The greater the darkness in the host, the greater the power."
Harmless =/= powerless inherently, it is a leap in logic to assume this means he has no power, and in context the reasoning for him being harmless is because he doesn't attack in base, he hides and tries to find a host. He is even later called a dangerous criminal by Jaco.
Furthermore, the notion he can't use ki for anything but flight speed is completely debunked since Watagash uses an energy explosion to destroy his containment vessel, break open Jaco's spaceship and escape. He also shows defensive ki that is at least somewhat comparable to Barry when he is able to survive Gohan's kamehameha, which was meant to knock out Barry, only being knocked out. So we know for a fact he has shown offensive and defensive applications for his ki, even at somewhat similar levels to Barry.
So in reality base Watagash should scale to Barry who is a fusion with Watagash as stated, that then has their power amped by darkness in the hosts heart. And even if you didn't agree, base Watagash survives being caught in Gohan's kamehameha being knocked out by it, the same one that is used to knock out Barry, so he scales at least somewhat to Barry and Gohan's held back kamehameha from that as well. So you can actually scale base Watagash to both fused Barry or Gohan in multiple ways.
Also the notion that Watagash is way faster than the rest of the Z cast is fallacious to begin with. We only have actual numbers up to Freiza saga right now that are accepted as conservative estimates, and even 50% Freiza is MFTL already, with later guys being listed as at least MFTL, so trying to say Watagash is objectively way faster than anybody in Z is simply wrong, best you could say is his speed feat is better than the conservatively estimated Freiza saga levels of speed. If anything Watagash legitimizes speeds that have been estimated for DBZ from the Piccolo moon beam and Kaioken.
Bottom line is there is absolutely no actual proof he is way faster in base, or that he follows different scaling from the rest of the franchise. Only one misinterpreted statement where there was a leap in logic to equate Harmless to powerless in the first place that has been completely debunked. Burden of proof lies on AKM to actually show explicit evidence that he does not follow the standard scaling, and I have yet to see such proof.
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Yes, I am certain that it is all in continuity, and that the wiki accepts it all as canon.
Its not just a jar, it clearly has electronic components and it is a containment vessel for very dangerous criminals made by a intergalactic police force that can contain relatively powerful alien criminals.
Jaco never captured Watagash on his own, and felt he needed Gohan's assistance to do it, so him scaling to Watagash doesn't really fit.
I don't see any questions tbh. There is no proof he follows a different standard, or that his base is way faster than his other forms, and he has displayed outright both offensive and defensive ki abilities by destroying his containment and Jacos ship, with an energy blast, and surviving being caught in Gohan's kamehameha that knocked out Barry. Clearly he does not just have speed.
So it seems pretty blatant that he scales like everybody else per the normal standards.
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Why are we assuming that Watagash's fusion doesn't follow the general "at least the sum of its parts" standard in Dragon Ball. It's at least the sum of strength and the sum of speed.
You could say that Watagash has 10 STR and 100 SPD and the robber having 10 STR and 10 SPD.
Ignoring any darkness multipliers, the base fusion should be at least 20 STR and 110 SPD as per the standard set in DBZ.
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Can somebody give a TL;DR on what the end changes will be for these proposals? Which profiles will be affected, and to what?
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This is what I was told.
Regarding the back scaling discussion, we could compromise a possibly rating.
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I still don't see how Watagash's interstellar travel speed feat is being used to scale his combat speed when possessing a person, or Gohan for fighting him. I'm not seeing a reason for anyone to scale to the feat, let alone trying to scale based on power levels and upgrade the DBZ cast for this.
Backscaling this does not seem reasonable.
Might as well calc travel speed feats that actually exist in DBZ like Gotenks flying around the Earth and use that instead.
Backscaling this does not seem reasonable.
Might as well calc travel speed feats that actually exist in DBZ like Gotenks flying around the Earth and use that instead.
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Why would we assume that? Watagash is described as a parasite who latches on to a host. His "fusion" is not a potara fusion, and neither a dance fusion. And his "fusion" is described to work differently. Just because Jaco used the phrase "he fuses" means nothing about how it should work.
Secondly, it's contradicted in the show. According to the opposition, the bank robber should be faster and stronger than anything in DBZ by a huge margin. Yet Gohan, who supposedly isn't anywhere near his full strength, beats him in base very easily.
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- #262
We use flight speed all the time like for Whis speed calc, Beerus flying to another planet speed calc, Goku and Pikon crossing the afterlife speed calc, so it shouldn't be an issue.
Its not backscaling though. Watagash scales to Gohan and Barry who would be 4-C due to this revision at the time of the feat, so the other 4-C characters would scale to per the scaling standards that everybody uses for DB. Backscaling would be if the feat was like a 3-A feat and we tried to apply a fraction of it to a weaker character. DBS anime is treated as in continuity, on the wiki it is just as valid as the manga for scaling.
Gohan pre training with Piccolo would have the same power he did in the Buu saga pre mystic form, since there is a lot of proof he got weaker and lost his Mystic form until then, with no solid 3-A proof. So he would be 4-C from RoF till Piccolo training for ToP.
Also Barry/Watagash would be changed to this 4-C level and all 4-C or up guys would scale to his speed. So it would make 4-C DB guys 1500 c, which actually fits well given the current scaling for DB using Piccolos moon beam and kaioken places even Namek Frieza at around 500 c conservatively.
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Nobody said Watagash is way faster than anybody in DBZ but you, and its not accurate given we have no idea how fast mid and late DBZ guys are, just way above what was calculated for Frieza, which is already MFTL. They are even listed as at least MFTL. So saying Watagash is way faster than anybody in Z is not backed up by evidence since Frieza and onwards are somewhere above like 500 c conservatively.
The bank robber lost to Gohan, who is 4-C, so all it proves is base Gohan > base Watagash + robber. It doesn't prove Watagash is powerless by any means, which is never stated anyway since harmless =/= powerless inherently. Also which was proven further with him surviving Gohans kamehameha that knocked out Barry, meaning base Watagash is somewhat comparable to Barry/Gohan's kamehameha, and blowing apart his containment and Jacos ship, so him only having speed or following a different standard is directly contradicted by feats in the show anyway and is never actually directly stated.
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Yes, because according to the current stats, he is. We are not gonna assume characters in DBZ are way faster than what they are listed simply because you think so. At least means that they can be a bit faster, not that you can put a value on it. They'd still be considered slower than any other higher calculated value. According to the stats, Watagash is faster than all of Z even when his calc is lowballed, and thus stronger too according to your logic, which is contradicted by the show, and thus your logic falls flat.
Actually, it just proves that base Gohan > Watagash boosted robber. Not Watagash + robber.
Because Watagash never took the full blast. Watagash boosted Barry did.
DivineAura44
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Isn't Vegito faster than Watagash?
DivineAura44
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And literally every other Buu Saga high tier.
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At least means that is the minimum they could be, it could be far faster than that. In reality even Frieza was at that 500 c level conservatively, so already 1/3 the speed calced for Watagash. So saying that all DBZ is vastly slower, when even Freiza on Namek conservatively is somewhat close is simply wrong.
No, it means Watagash fused with robber is below Gohan. It in no way proves that Watagash or that robber with him is virtually powerless like you were claiming.
Watagash objectively is knocked out by Gohan's kamehameha, but survives it and escapes later, which was made to knock out Barry. Thus he is at least somewhat comparable with his durability feat. You saying he never took the full blast makes no sense since Barry is literally in the center of it with Watagash sticking out of his head. He was right in the center of it. This further proves he is not just capable of speed like your claiming and is an alternate way to scale Watagash base to be somewhat comparable to Barry and Gohan's kamehameha.
You still have no actual proof that he is faster in base, or that he doesn't follow the standard more ki/power = more speed. Because the Jaco statement is contradicted directly and taken out of context since it refers to him not attacking in base, not his power.
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Its hard to believe vegito or other buu Saga characters ain't faster than an alien parasite
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I'm not referring to Potara or the Fusion dance specifically. I'm referring to the different types of fusion in the DB verse in general.
Fusion
Directory: Techniques → Supportive Techniques Fusion (合体, Gattai, lit. "Union") is the process of merging two or more separate beings into one, combining their attributes, from strength and speed to reflexes, intelligence, and wisdom. When properly fused, the single being created has an...
dragonball.fandom.com
General fusions at their core are at least A + B.
The Watagash calc puts it at 1571c. According to our current scaling chain, we stopped at 596.4c at the end of the Frieza Saga, and this is a low ball, excluding the explicit 10x speed increase from Goku's 100g training which would make them 1491c
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Actually, we used a 4x multiplier; the being 10x faster than he was in Saiyan saga was comparing respective base forms. So it would only be 1491c.
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My mistake on the 10x number. My point stands that 596.4c and 1491c are very conservative estimates that are only up to the Frieza Saga. The conservative estimate with the 10x used is only 5% different from the Watagash calc.
Any more significant training, Zenkais, or Higher SSJ forms applied in the scaling chain should obviously cross that 5% gap.
Again, I'm only going for a possibly rating being added.
Any more significant training, Zenkais, or Higher SSJ forms applied in the scaling chain should obviously cross that 5% gap.
Again, I'm only going for a possibly rating being added.
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Actually, if we just straight up used the 1491c chain, this whole thread would be a moot point.
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Firestorm808 makes good points regarding that we have apparently used lowballed estimates in lack of better options, and that this would not be a significant upgrade.
The main issue for me is the backscaling from anime to manga via a filler episode, but I am not certain.
The main issue for me is the backscaling from anime to manga via a filler episode, but I am not certain.
Vietthai96
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It is not filler in anymean Ant, back in the day of DBZ filler appear because the lack of source material to progress the anime, monthly manga can't caught up with a weakly anime series run continuously without season. But in DBS, Akira made a point that he just thow out a skeleton for story, both Toei and Toyotaro freely make the flesh based on the skeleton, he did advise here and there but the final decision are made by both Toei and Toyotaro regarding their respective anime and manga storyline, and both anime and manga are canon to DBZ manga, so those episode are not filler, but in-between saga/arc
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I mean as I said before, Toriyama himself has commented on anime filler back in the DBZ days, pretty much giving it his approval. Although filler, it's still part of the main continuity
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I would be fine if we used the 1491c in the current scaling, by adding in the 10x boost instead of the 4x one for Goku from Saiyan Saga to Namek saga, and put the Watagash feat as a "possibly' speed beside it. I feel that would be a reasonable compromise that acknowledges both, and actually has the numbers be consistent as well.
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I can guarantee that we use all of DBS anime on the wiki as of now. We don't consider any of it "filler" and AT and TOIE consider it all in continuity to the original DB manga. So if that's a sticking point for you no need to worry about that. Only the old DBZ anime has "filler" since it is an adaptation of the manga, and added things in that were never part of the original manga.
Vietthai96
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By Ant logic, if we seriously considered those in-between arc as filler. Some character will lose some rating and abilities in their profile cause some of them belong to "filler" arc
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