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Servant Immunity

Solacis

Solacis

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This is pretty straight forward.

On every Servant's page it's written "Immunity to Modern Weapons (Servants are Divine Mysteries that cannot be harmed by modern weapons such as guns, knives, or bombs unless they are infused with a supernatural aspect such as magical energy or possess a certain amount of age or mystery behind their creation) " However, this is misleading in that the linked imagesnever specify that the immunity only applies to weaponry.

The concept of mystery applies to everything in the Nasuverse, not just weapons. This is seen in Arcueid's own immunity to modern means of attack, as well as her magic resistance, and while he doesn't have a profile, Lugh Beowulf.
 
Interesting. Would make them even harder to harm lest you got mystery or something in the verse.

Curious to see what the others think.
 
Thats kind of how it is anyway. The only matches I can think of involving Servants are against guys with magic or something similar.
 
As Rin points out. I haven't seen a lot here still but I would be sure that there's plenty of verses that has magic or something similar to still fight the Servants (or people like Arc above).

(Would not be surprised if at some point this was called out as NLF)
 
It already has but we had to argue how its like non existent physiology (or something like that) requiring specifc requirements to actually affect.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
It already has but we had to argue how its like non existent physiology (or something like that) requiring specifc requirements to actually affect.
Click to expand...
That would be incorrect. Servants exist, they just don't interact to things that lack mystery in the same way an intangible being doesn't interact with physical objects. I would rather call it a limited form of Non-Corporeality or Intangbility, leaning on the later.
 
Definitely wouldn't say its non existent physiology, but IDK if it's invulnerability or non-corporeality to those things. Mainly because apart from Rin's example, I don't know if it's ever shown in practice, so I don't know whether non-mysterious things go straight through the servant or just bounce off them.
 
According to the Apocrypha LN, the reason Servants can ignore debris flying all over the place while they fight is because they're non-magical. So, bounce right off.
 
Fate/Stay Night, Heaven's Feel Route, Day 15
Shirou: "Right, next question. Are Servants still spirits even if they take physical form? So you can't hurt them with normal weapons?"
Rider: "…Let's see. A normal Servant will be able to nullify them, but those consumed by Sakura are another matter.
Having received bodies from Sakura, they cannot return to spiritual form.
Strong magical weapons should be able to penetrate through their shadows."
Rider outright says Servants nullify.

Also, natural disasters are natural phenomena, and so inherently possess mystery due to being connected to the World. Supernovas would hurt Servants due to their occurence being not-of-earth, the same way Velber affects Servants despite not technically playing by Earth's rules and concepts.

Things like debris don't hurt Servants because mystery is lost upon change of shape (i.e. damage). If the World created a tornado that crushed and blew some rocks at Servants, it's "natural" and thus possesses mystery due to the age of the World. If a normal person chucked a rock at a Servant, then it's "unnatural" and thus possesses only as much mystery as the rock and the human combined, which isn't enough to harm a Servant.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
That sounds much more like a high resistance.
Lancer wouldn't tank a supernova "because it's a natural phenomena", for example. That would be NLF.
Click to expand...
Natural phenomena like that usually have enough legends about them to gain mystery, but that's probably beside the point
 
@Dargoo

Producing large-scale natural phenomena like that is a True Ancestor-esque ability known as Marble Phantasm, which would definitely have enough mystery to bypass Servant immunity.

Otherwise, I'm fine with this for the most part.
 
Okay.

It's done through completely normal scientific weaponry that has nothing to do with magic and is less than 100 years old.

Does Lancer still tank an attack with such force?

Unless your arguing having strength that high in the first place is a form of mystery in which case just being in the same tier as most servants would let you hurt them.

Look, we've had a thread already dismissing Immunity as a concept in its entirety.
 
"If a normal person chucked a rock at a Servant, then it's "unnatural" and thus possesses only as much mystery as the rock and the human combined, which isn't enough to harm a Servant."

And if the rock was thrown by The Hulk? Or Arale?
 
Then we can take it like Herc's post-death God Hand resistance. Extreme resistance / practical immunity.

Regardless, if Ars Almadel Salomonis / Enuma Elish were non-magical and less than 100 years old, according to Nasuverse rules, Servants negate it. So "practical immunity up to 5-A attacks".
 
Solacis said:
So "practical immunity up to 5-A attacks".
Click to expand...
There's 4-B attacks in Fate. Hell, you coulda argue there are some Low 2-C phenomena in Fate.

Servants negating anything that any character in the nasuverse can produce if it's normal sounds equally NLF, you're just lowering the bar from 'Absolutely Ridiculous' to 'Makes no Sense'.

What's the best feat of negation in regards to servant immunity? Hm?

Just treat it as invulnerability to whatever their durability is in terms of attacks that don't contain mystery.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
Nothing. Just Word of God statements essentially saying "no mystery, no effect"
Click to expand...
There's plenty of Word of God calling characters invulnerable in plenty of verses. Does that mean they're absolutely immune to physical damage at any level, above what's shown in the series?
 
I mean, its the mechanic of how it works. If we disregard the mechanics of the verse, why even bother with it at all?
 
@Dargoo and @Cal

Obviously we're not going to be resorting to NLF, but I don't exactly think it's fair to ignore an ability with clearly defined limits.

The example given in-story is that bombs, guns, and all kinds of modern weapons are useless against Servants. But put a paper knife in the hands of a Servant, who is walking, breathing Mystery, and it suddenly becomes dangerous enough to injure another Servant.

Obviously, the statement about "Servants being the only ones who can injure other Servants" is obviously outdated given how there are a variety of characters that can attack Servants without a problem (i.e. magical golems, magical automatons, dragons, True Ancestors/vampires, skeleton monsters e.t.c.), but all of these have some sort of supernatural component.
 
There's plenty of times in FGO where regular living people can contend with servants. See: Nero in Septim, Drake in Okeanos, et cetera.

Personally I'm not saying to ignore it but I don't think we should assume that servants can survive attacks several orders of magnitude above their durability if it doesn't have mystery. I can see you're at lease amiable to accounting for NLF so I hope that we can at least agree on that. And no, 5-B/4-B is not a reasonable cap on it. There isn't even any meaningful feats with this 'immunity' past ignoring some rocks flying around. At best you'd be inflating Word of God to the utmost limit with no support past a statement or two in story.

The example you give in story doesn't mention anything about modern weapons, on the contrary, and the way you present it is very misleading. Rin just says "Servants can't be harmed by normal means" and it's because they're divine mysteries, not "you need mystery to harm them". Even if that was the case see my previous posts about NLF.

Yes, it is outdated. The mystery part is outdated as well; see my first line.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
There's plenty of times in FGO where regular living people can contend with servants. See: Nero in Septim, Drake in Okeanos, et cetera.
Click to expand...
Did you forgot that past 1900, it's hard to become a servant because of less mystery. Most people in ancient times have mystery. And Drake can't damage the servant without using her own holy grail.
 
@Dargoo

Drake was empowered by a Holy Grail to Servant-level Mystery.

Nero is a Roman emperor whose ancestors were demigods and were elevated to the level of gods after their deaths.

It's explicitly stated in Okeanos that Drake is the only one in her crew able to damage Servants thanks to her Holy Grail and that the rest of her crew is useless because their weapons don't have enough Mystery. They had guns, swords, and cannons at their disposal.

I understand your skepticism, but you're ignoring context.
 
I don't see how that qualifies Nero as having mystery. Your ancestors (if we're talking Romulus that's centuries in the past) possessing mystery doesn't seem like something that would put you at a supernatural level, but if that's something that's explicitly stated sure, whatever.

I didn't see the context in one instance in one of my points. I do not see how that invalidates any of my other points. You can at least understand my skepticism, so I hope you can understand why applying this resistance to attacks that have a AP completely outside of the range of the servants is a bit silly.

I would also like scans and quotes of every time this is mentioned. The Rin quote we can at least agree on is vague as all living heck and doesn't describe what you're talking about.
 
@Dargoo

I'll have to dig into the game to find those screenshots but sure.

Literally no one is saying that "X can take a 4-B attack because it lacks Mystery". Quite frankly, everything in the Nasuverse on that scale has mystery. Hell, the literal sun gods of Earth were originally aliens and they have plenty of mystery.
 
Here, Mashu is surprised that Drake is powerful enough to fight her blow-for-blow and wonders if Drake really is flesh and blood, since normally a Servant's spiritual body is necessary to harm another.

Servant Mystery Defense 1
Drake says that while the Holy Grail is inside of her she can damage guys (Servants) who are normally "invincible".

Servant Mystery Defense 2
The "superhumans" won't budge to any cannon fire but her own.

Servant Mystery Defense 3
Mash warns all of Drake's men to retreat because only she, Drake, and Fujimaru can harm the incoming Servants.

Servant Mystery Defense 4
Yes, I understand that mystery is never brought up by name in any of these scans, but the point is that Servants are invincible to pirates armed with guns, swords, and cannonballs. But the minute Drake starts firing them personally, they actually hurt.
 
@Weekly

You do realize that the exact same cannons were used by Drake to deal damage, right?
 
Reppuzan said:
Literally no one is saying that "X can take a 4-B attack because it lacks Mystery". Quite frankly, everything in the Nasuverse on that scale has mystery. Hell, the literal sun gods of Earth were originally aliens and they have plenty of mystery.
Click to expand...
"Regardless, if Ars Almadel Salomonis / Enuma Elish were non-magical and less than 100 years old, according to Nasuverse rules, Servants negate it. So "practical immunity up to 5-A attacks"

"Just take the Servant Immunity and apply it to the strongest attack in the Nasuverse. If said attck were non-magical/had no mystery, then Servants would negate it as per the rules of the Nasuverse. There's your limit. Servant Immunity can negate up to 5-A non-magical, non-mysterious attacks."

I was reffering to posts that were saying that we should take the strongest attacks in the Nasuverse and then say "if it isn't supernatural/lacks mystery, it doesn't affect servants".

I also wasn't asking for proof on Drake, I already admitted I got that one wrong. I'm looking for a clearer explaination of the immunity than Rin's exposition, as, like I said twice now, that statement is very vague and only states that you can't harm Servants with "normal means", which can just be interpreted as them having an enourmously high durability.

Even then the Drake examples can frankly just be explained as "Drake's crew doesn't have the AP to harm servants", and because Drake has a friggin Grail, one of the more powerful tools in the series, she can harm them.
 
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