Tdjwo
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Hello, everyone. Today seems relatively uneventful, and in order to pass the time, I've opted for something a bit out of the ordinary. Indeed, as the title suggests, we'll be delving into the Outer Gods featured in the Nasuverse and exploring the hidden mysteries surrounding them. Note, I'm not necessarily proposing an upgrade for the Eldritch gods, rather, I'm simply trying to point out some major things about them that could either help/not help the verse in future revisions.
Common Knowledge Regarding Outer Gods/Cthulhu Mythos On This Wiki
As we all know, the first and original mentions of Outer gods came from H.P Lovecraft himself. Later, we know other authors such as Clark Ashton and Frank Belknap also wrote a few books regarding/relating the Eldritch gods and the entire Cthulhu Mythos. This wiki currently recognizes only these three authors as the canonical writers for the Cthulhu Mythos which means all other series that mention the Outer gods are merely considered as inspirations and aren't tiered the same or even recognized as part of the Cthulhu Mythos. Demonbane, Nasuverse, SMT, etc are currently the verses that mention/show Outer gods existing in them, but they aren't tiered the same as the Cthulhu Mythos OG's since they aren't considered to be from the same series.
Where Exactly Did The Outer Gods In Nasuverse Come From?
This has been a recurring question not only within the fanbase but even within Fate Grand Orders. Most of the "answers" we get within FGO are either half-assed(especially when it's coming from Gilles) or completely puzzling. But it seems we didn't focus on a particular person properly. That is Demon God Raum. Before delving into what Raum truly meant, let's make something clear.
We know almost all mythical entities exist in Nasuverse. From the Greek gods to the Hindu Gods, Mesoamerican gods, etc. They all exist within the Nasuverse. Even YHWH from the Christian religion exists in the verse as he owns Solomon's ten rings and the God Jeanne d'Arc & St. Martha worships. But as we know, they aren’t accurate descriptions of the actual gods from the mentioned legends, These gods don't use magecraft in their actual legends nor do they look like what they look like in Nasuverse. They can be more/less powerful than they are actually portrayed in their respective legends.
But it becomes a little weird when it comes to Outer gods. The most significant difference between Lovecraftian Outer Gods and the other mythical/religious Gods mentioned earlier is that; “Outer Gods aren’t actual deities.” They aren’t worshipped in real life by real 3D humans. People worship gods from the Greek, Hindu, Christian and Mesoamerican religions but no one worships Outer Gods in actual reality. We know Kinoko Nasu took inspiration from actual legends and religions and made his own versions, which are noticeably different in his story. The characters within the story recognize each person's lore and legend that is written in the books. For example, "The Epic of Gilgamesh" is a book that exists in our reality and within the reality of Nasuverse. It accurately portrays the journey of Gilgamesh's quest for immortality and how he failed to obtain it, bla bla bla. Caster Gilgamesh and Ishtar both recognize the book exists, and Doctor Roman(whom we know is a disguise for Solomon) accurately narrates part of the story. What makes the entire thing unique is that there is a clear difference between Gilgamesh from the "Epic of Gilgamesh" and Caster Gilgamesh despite being the same thing. The Gilgamesh in the Epic doesn't use magecraft, nor does he have the outer-worldly powers that his current Caster version has. Sure, he had great weapons and treasures in the Epic, but not anywhere close to what he had in Babylonia.
Another example is Jeanne d'Arc. Her lore/book; "The Hundred Years War," accurately displays her lore in the Nasuverse just as it is in reality. While as a servant, there a lot of "Nasuveric" stuff about Jeane, her original lore is 100% accurate.
What Does This Mean?
This means almost every character whose lore was written in a book and is known by us humans in real life an accurate depictions. The Epic of Gilgamesh in Nasu is exactly just the same as the Epic of Gilgamesh in the real world. Caster Gil is different from "Epic of Gilgamesh" Gil despite being even a closer depiction compared to UBW Gilgamesh in terms of everything. This means if someone, for example, "dragged" Gilgamesh from the "Epic of Gilgamesh" book which exists in Nasuverse as fiction into the real Nasuverse world, he would be different from every Gilgamesh we know currently. To make things easier, I would give a short summary. "EOG" means Epic of Gilgamesh
"The Epic of Gilgamesh" book in Nasuverse = "The Epic of Gilgamesh" book in our real world
"The Gilgamesh in EOG" Nasuverse = "The Gilgamesh in EOG" Reality.
"The Gilgamesh in Nasuverse(all servant versions) ≠ "The Gilgamesh in EOG" Nasuverse
"The Gilgamesh in Nasuverse(all servant versions) ≠ "The Gilgamesh in EOG" Reality.
As some of you might be thinking, this case isn't the same for all characters in the Nasuverse which is definitely true. For example, Artoria in lore is obviously not a female in our reality. In Fate, however, she is considered a male as well, despite being a female in actuality. While this looks like a contradiction, it really isn't. Like I said earlier, characters with books seen as "fiction" or myths follow accurate depictions of the books in our real-world . Doctor Roman was the narrator of Epic of Gilgamesh in Babylonia singularity and from what it looks, Doctor Roman's sense of humour seems to be likened to our real world. Making jokes inspired by the Kardashians tv show.
So, it's not an assumption to consider that lores from fictional myths existing in our real world are any different from the lores that exist in Nasuverse, which are also depicted as fiction. There's no contradiction regarding fictions in Nasuverse being the same as the fictions we know in our reality.
What Do All These Got To Do With The Outer Gods?
Now, back to Raum and the Outer Gods. Firstly, let me make this clear; "OUTER GODS DID NOT ALWAYS EXIST IN NASUVERSE." This is something very important almost everyone forgets. Just like the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Outer gods were originally from the fictional Mythos, which was clearly and directly gotten from the book of Eibon, which also exists in Nasuverse as fiction.
Now, as I said earlier, Nasuverse isn't the only verse that has Outer Gods outside of Cthulhu Mythos. Demonbane and some other verses also have it. But what differentiates Nasuverse from the rest of the other verses is that these Outer Gods in Nasuverse were originally fiction. They weren't real beings that actually existed. Raum made it very clear to us on how he knew of them and his plots with them.
During his conversation with Zepar, he recognizes that a story is filled with superstitions written in the form of fiction. After Zepar asked Raum what he meant by that, he claimed that the Mage's Association had a department that dealt with folklore which is considered a secret department within the Mage's Association. He then claimed he wanted to combine legend with superstition which he could achieve by creating a town that believed in superstitions and he would conduct multiple trials(the Salem Witch Trials) in them until he received a result. The result which he wants would not be derived from "truth" as they can't save humanity with the truth. To Raum, the truth is useless as it cannot save humanity(note, Raum is a villain with a twisted ideology. His "saving humanity" actually means destroying humanity). His key lies in superstition made from fiction. Fictions about beings that do not exist in the regular universe. The Universe in this context, refers to the entire universe of logic. That would include all the higher dimensions in the verse and everything within that universe. Outside that universe, logic ceases to exist
In order words, what Raum was talking about was fictional beings that weren't from the Nasuverse inner universe. After Zepar heard this, he was shocked because he believed it was completely impossible as it would require Zepar to open paths to alternate worlds that didn't exist even in parallel dimensions, which is impossible as
After hearing this, Raum agrees with Zepar that it is indeed impossible for him to do all that by himself. But by sheer, mad coincidence, he wouldn't have to do everything himself. Immediately after, he follows up, claiming that Humans had done everything for him. What he says afterwards is now where things start to get interesting. He claims a fictional mythology which happens to describe a being that already exists outside the Universe(universe of logic), left an imprint on the universe.
Then follows up by implying that everything the author(most likely H.P Lovecraft or Clark Ashton) wrote was nothing but sheer delusion which somehow managed to open a path for him. He claims that the book, most likely the book of Eibon(since it's a fiction that exists in the verse) was a doubtless prophecy in which he saw possibilities. He then said he would take that fiction and make it real. Afterwards, Raum says that he and the other Demon Gods could never have saved(destroyed) humanity themselves because the very universe didn't allow them to(there are countless higher D's in the verse and the Demon Gods aren't strong enough. So what he needed was a monster from another world not bound by the laws and common sense of the universe. A being who is beyond even limitless wisdom. Remember, the only things outside the world(Universe of logic) are the Root, Throne of Heroes and Outer Gods. He then believes this fictional being would put an end to the entire Universe.
All these means;
What Am I Proposing?
Now, as I said earlier, I wasn't really trying to upgrade the verse. My main aim is to simply point out that the Outer Gods we hear of in Nasuverse are from the actual fictional mythos of cosmic horrors rather than just inspired copycat versions as we see in other franchises. In the future, there would most likely be upgrades/downgrades and this thread might either help/ruin them. One thing I would like to note though is that since we know Cthulhu Mythos is now a public domain where copyright issues are now non-existent, claiming that Yog Sothoth in Nasu is the exact same as Yog Sothoth in Cthulhu Mythos is the exact truth and isn't a copyright problem.
What About Abigail and The Root
Abigail, as we know, is a vessel for Yog-Sothoth. That doesn't change anything. The Root, on the other hand is different. It is known as the governing force of everything that exists in the Nasuverse. No matter how abstract or illogical they might be, the Root would always be beyond it. Now, if we were to accept the Outer Gods as being from the Lovecraftian Mythos, what would that mean for the Root? Both the Root and Yog-Sothoth have similar descriptions regarding ineffability and what-nots so one being above the other would serve as a contradiction. I have an answer for this but I don't want to post it here, yet. I just want us to decide what to do with the Outer Gods once and for all.
NOTE:
Please, I really don't want this thread to get ruined. Almost every Nasuverse crt ends up in ruins due to haters ruining the thread. This particular topic is regarding Outer gods which I know very certainly most of the non-Nasuverse fans have no clue about. So instead of commenting randomly and causing chaos, I would highly advise you to simply not comment at all. This is for Nasuverse & Cthulhu Mythos fans with knowledge regarding the Outer gods. Staff members are also highly needed to keep the stability of the crt in check.
Common Knowledge Regarding Outer Gods/Cthulhu Mythos On This Wiki
As we all know, the first and original mentions of Outer gods came from H.P Lovecraft himself. Later, we know other authors such as Clark Ashton and Frank Belknap also wrote a few books regarding/relating the Eldritch gods and the entire Cthulhu Mythos. This wiki currently recognizes only these three authors as the canonical writers for the Cthulhu Mythos which means all other series that mention the Outer gods are merely considered as inspirations and aren't tiered the same or even recognized as part of the Cthulhu Mythos. Demonbane, Nasuverse, SMT, etc are currently the verses that mention/show Outer gods existing in them, but they aren't tiered the same as the Cthulhu Mythos OG's since they aren't considered to be from the same series.
Where Exactly Did The Outer Gods In Nasuverse Come From?
This has been a recurring question not only within the fanbase but even within Fate Grand Orders. Most of the "answers" we get within FGO are either half-assed(especially when it's coming from Gilles) or completely puzzling. But it seems we didn't focus on a particular person properly. That is Demon God Raum. Before delving into what Raum truly meant, let's make something clear.
We know almost all mythical entities exist in Nasuverse. From the Greek gods to the Hindu Gods, Mesoamerican gods, etc. They all exist within the Nasuverse. Even YHWH from the Christian religion exists in the verse as he owns Solomon's ten rings and the God Jeanne d'Arc & St. Martha worships. But as we know, they aren’t accurate descriptions of the actual gods from the mentioned legends, These gods don't use magecraft in their actual legends nor do they look like what they look like in Nasuverse. They can be more/less powerful than they are actually portrayed in their respective legends.
But it becomes a little weird when it comes to Outer gods. The most significant difference between Lovecraftian Outer Gods and the other mythical/religious Gods mentioned earlier is that; “Outer Gods aren’t actual deities.” They aren’t worshipped in real life by real 3D humans. People worship gods from the Greek, Hindu, Christian and Mesoamerican religions but no one worships Outer Gods in actual reality. We know Kinoko Nasu took inspiration from actual legends and religions and made his own versions, which are noticeably different in his story. The characters within the story recognize each person's lore and legend that is written in the books. For example, "The Epic of Gilgamesh" is a book that exists in our reality and within the reality of Nasuverse. It accurately portrays the journey of Gilgamesh's quest for immortality and how he failed to obtain it, bla bla bla. Caster Gilgamesh and Ishtar both recognize the book exists, and Doctor Roman(whom we know is a disguise for Solomon) accurately narrates part of the story. What makes the entire thing unique is that there is a clear difference between Gilgamesh from the "Epic of Gilgamesh" and Caster Gilgamesh despite being the same thing. The Gilgamesh in the Epic doesn't use magecraft, nor does he have the outer-worldly powers that his current Caster version has. Sure, he had great weapons and treasures in the Epic, but not anywhere close to what he had in Babylonia.
Another example is Jeanne d'Arc. Her lore/book; "The Hundred Years War," accurately displays her lore in the Nasuverse just as it is in reality. While as a servant, there a lot of "Nasuveric" stuff about Jeane, her original lore is 100% accurate.
What Does This Mean?
This means almost every character whose lore was written in a book and is known by us humans in real life an accurate depictions. The Epic of Gilgamesh in Nasu is exactly just the same as the Epic of Gilgamesh in the real world. Caster Gil is different from "Epic of Gilgamesh" Gil despite being even a closer depiction compared to UBW Gilgamesh in terms of everything. This means if someone, for example, "dragged" Gilgamesh from the "Epic of Gilgamesh" book which exists in Nasuverse as fiction into the real Nasuverse world, he would be different from every Gilgamesh we know currently. To make things easier, I would give a short summary. "EOG" means Epic of Gilgamesh
"The Epic of Gilgamesh" book in Nasuverse = "The Epic of Gilgamesh" book in our real world
"The Gilgamesh in EOG" Nasuverse = "The Gilgamesh in EOG" Reality.
"The Gilgamesh in Nasuverse(all servant versions) ≠ "The Gilgamesh in EOG" Nasuverse
"The Gilgamesh in Nasuverse(all servant versions) ≠ "The Gilgamesh in EOG" Reality.
As some of you might be thinking, this case isn't the same for all characters in the Nasuverse which is definitely true. For example, Artoria in lore is obviously not a female in our reality. In Fate, however, she is considered a male as well, despite being a female in actuality. While this looks like a contradiction, it really isn't. Like I said earlier, characters with books seen as "fiction" or myths follow accurate depictions of the books in our real-world . Doctor Roman was the narrator of Epic of Gilgamesh in Babylonia singularity and from what it looks, Doctor Roman's sense of humour seems to be likened to our real world. Making jokes inspired by the Kardashians tv show.
So, it's not an assumption to consider that lores from fictional myths existing in our real world are any different from the lores that exist in Nasuverse, which are also depicted as fiction. There's no contradiction regarding fictions in Nasuverse being the same as the fictions we know in our reality.
What Do All These Got To Do With The Outer Gods?
Now, back to Raum and the Outer Gods. Firstly, let me make this clear; "OUTER GODS DID NOT ALWAYS EXIST IN NASUVERSE." This is something very important almost everyone forgets. Just like the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Outer gods were originally from the fictional Mythos, which was clearly and directly gotten from the book of Eibon, which also exists in Nasuverse as fiction.
Now, as I said earlier, Nasuverse isn't the only verse that has Outer Gods outside of Cthulhu Mythos. Demonbane and some other verses also have it. But what differentiates Nasuverse from the rest of the other verses is that these Outer Gods in Nasuverse were originally fiction. They weren't real beings that actually existed. Raum made it very clear to us on how he knew of them and his plots with them.
During his conversation with Zepar, he recognizes that a story is filled with superstitions written in the form of fiction. After Zepar asked Raum what he meant by that, he claimed that the Mage's Association had a department that dealt with folklore which is considered a secret department within the Mage's Association. He then claimed he wanted to combine legend with superstition which he could achieve by creating a town that believed in superstitions and he would conduct multiple trials(the Salem Witch Trials) in them until he received a result. The result which he wants would not be derived from "truth" as they can't save humanity with the truth. To Raum, the truth is useless as it cannot save humanity(note, Raum is a villain with a twisted ideology. His "saving humanity" actually means destroying humanity). His key lies in superstition made from fiction. Fictions about beings that do not exist in the regular universe. The Universe in this context, refers to the entire universe of logic. That would include all the higher dimensions in the verse and everything within that universe. Outside that universe, logic ceases to exist
In order words, what Raum was talking about was fictional beings that weren't from the Nasuverse inner universe. After Zepar heard this, he was shocked because he believed it was completely impossible as it would require Zepar to open paths to alternate worlds that didn't exist even in parallel dimensions, which is impossible as
After hearing this, Raum agrees with Zepar that it is indeed impossible for him to do all that by himself. But by sheer, mad coincidence, he wouldn't have to do everything himself. Immediately after, he follows up, claiming that Humans had done everything for him. What he says afterwards is now where things start to get interesting. He claims a fictional mythology which happens to describe a being that already exists outside the Universe(universe of logic), left an imprint on the universe.
Then follows up by implying that everything the author(most likely H.P Lovecraft or Clark Ashton) wrote was nothing but sheer delusion which somehow managed to open a path for him. He claims that the book, most likely the book of Eibon(since it's a fiction that exists in the verse) was a doubtless prophecy in which he saw possibilities. He then said he would take that fiction and make it real. Afterwards, Raum says that he and the other Demon Gods could never have saved(destroyed) humanity themselves because the very universe didn't allow them to(there are countless higher D's in the verse and the Demon Gods aren't strong enough. So what he needed was a monster from another world not bound by the laws and common sense of the universe. A being who is beyond even limitless wisdom. Remember, the only things outside the world(Universe of logic) are the Root, Throne of Heroes and Outer Gods. He then believes this fictional being would put an end to the entire Universe.
All these means;
- These Outer Gods in Nasuverse didn't always exist in actuality. Instead, they were purely fictional.
- This fiction is kept by the Mages Association in secrecy and closely studied.
- Raum wants to use the being in the fiction(Yog-Sothoth) to destroy the entire verse barring the things that exist outside it.
- For him to do that, he coincidentally uses the imprints made by the author of the book(most likely the book of Eibon) to summon Yog-Sothoth
- Known fictions in Nasuverse seem to follow the correct depiction of the same fiction in our reality, as seen with Gilgamesh and Jeanne d'arc examples.
- This means the Outer Gods that were gotten from the book of Eibon in Nasuverse are the same Outer gods known within Cthulhu Mythos.
What Am I Proposing?
Now, as I said earlier, I wasn't really trying to upgrade the verse. My main aim is to simply point out that the Outer Gods we hear of in Nasuverse are from the actual fictional mythos of cosmic horrors rather than just inspired copycat versions as we see in other franchises. In the future, there would most likely be upgrades/downgrades and this thread might either help/ruin them. One thing I would like to note though is that since we know Cthulhu Mythos is now a public domain where copyright issues are now non-existent, claiming that Yog Sothoth in Nasu is the exact same as Yog Sothoth in Cthulhu Mythos is the exact truth and isn't a copyright problem.
What About Abigail and The Root
Abigail, as we know, is a vessel for Yog-Sothoth. That doesn't change anything. The Root, on the other hand is different. It is known as the governing force of everything that exists in the Nasuverse. No matter how abstract or illogical they might be, the Root would always be beyond it. Now, if we were to accept the Outer Gods as being from the Lovecraftian Mythos, what would that mean for the Root? Both the Root and Yog-Sothoth have similar descriptions regarding ineffability and what-nots so one being above the other would serve as a contradiction. I have an answer for this but I don't want to post it here, yet. I just want us to decide what to do with the Outer Gods once and for all.
NOTE:
Please, I really don't want this thread to get ruined. Almost every Nasuverse crt ends up in ruins due to haters ruining the thread. This particular topic is regarding Outer gods which I know very certainly most of the non-Nasuverse fans have no clue about. So instead of commenting randomly and causing chaos, I would highly advise you to simply not comment at all. This is for Nasuverse & Cthulhu Mythos fans with knowledge regarding the Outer gods. Staff members are also highly needed to keep the stability of the crt in check.
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