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Servant Immunity

@ALRF

I agree. I honestly think this whole immunity idea was just extrapolated from the Wiki text and not actual sources as what I'm seeing doesn't really portray what is being argued here.
 
@Dargoo

Here's the full scene from the scans that are on every Servant's profile.

Servants are explicitly stated to be spiritual bodies who cannot be harmed by normal physical weapons.

"There are ways for even us to defeat Saber. We just need to use magecraft that exceeds Saber's magic resistance, or use the weapon she uses and cut her neck while she's asleep. Servants' weapons are in spirit form like them, so they should be able to hurt them."

You need something in spiritual form to harm a Servant, meaning magical energy or a supernatural component, because they possess spiritual bodies.

I'm not saying "oh because the wiki says so it must be true". This is stuff that's actually in the text.
 
Reppuzan said:
@Dargoo
Here's the full scene from the scans that are on every Servant's profile.

Servants are explicitly stated to be spiritual bodies who cannot be harmed by normal physical weapons.
Click to expand...
It doesn't say "normal physical weapons". Rin just says "normal means". She also says "only servants can harm other servants" in the very next line, which is something you've repeatedly denied as part of the immunity. Once again this can be explained by AP; of course 'normal means' wouldn't affect servants with 7-B durability, only another servant could have that kind of strength. Rin and Shirou don't have acess to thermonuclear weapons so I don't know how she could imagine harming them with any normal weapons due to the durability anyways. Her paper knife comparison could just be taken as Servants amplifying the AP of weapons they use, unless you want to imply Servants can be harmed by 10-C weapons weilded by other servants.

Reppuzan said:
"There are ways for even us to defeat Saber. We just need to use magecraft that exceeds Saber's magic resistance, or use the weapon she uses and cut her neck while she's asleep. Servants' weapons are in spirit form like them, so they should be able to hurt them."

You need something in spiritual form to harm a Servant, meaning magical energy or a supernatural component, because they possess spiritual bodies.
Click to expand...
That sort of contradicts what you've been claiming on stuff that has 'mystery' as it implies you need magic or a spiritual weapon to harm them, which is hardly the case as you've said yourself. Even then that can just be taken as having enough AP to harm them, as strong enough magecraft would naturally harm a servant via AP and a servant's weapon would certainly harm a servant via AP. At best your points are only loosely implied and not confirmed. Either way you've went from asserting you need mystery to harm a servant to asserting you need to have something in spiritual form to harm servants.

Reppuzan said:
I'm not saying "oh because the wiki says so it must be true". This is stuff that's actually in the text.
Click to expand...
I don't think you're doing that intentionally, but I will say the whole 'mystery' aspect of your argument is loosely implied at best and the extrapolation of the wiki probably affected whatever points you're trying to make.
 
>That sort of contradicts what you've been claiming on stuff that has 'mystery' as it implies you need magic or a spiritual weapon to harm them, which is hardly the case as you've said yourself.

Mystery and Magecraft correlate.

What is magecraft? A reenactment of Mystery
 
"Mystery" is an old name that's rarely ever explicitly mentioned in more recent Nasuverse works, but it's the only name we have for the "age equals power" concept that persists in Nasu's magic system. Magecraft is inherently linked with Mystery, which is inherently linked with the World as a whole. Those with Mystery are inherently 'magical'.

It all comes down to having a spiritual body[1]. A "spiritual body" is the one thing Rin explicitly mentions to be what is needed to harm Servants, without any vague language about it. "Servants' weapons are in spirit form like them, so they should be able to hurt them."

Also, in regards to the example of the living Nero somehow being able to affect Servants, remember that her sword, Aestus Estus, is inherently magical, and that she was noted to already be comparatively superhuman in life, in a time where everyone is already superhuman by modern standards due to the strength of the planet.

To address another misunderstanding above, Servants don't "amp" whatever weapons they hold, they make them inherently magical. The paper knife doesn't suddenly become sharper or sturdier just because a Servant is using it, it just becomes magical enough to hurt another Servant. It's the same as a mundane sword VS a sword that is exactly the same in every way except it has magical energy flowing through or around it. Just because the magic is there doesn't mean it's doing anything. There's a reason enhancement magecraft like Shirou's Reinforcement is more than just pumping something with magical energy. It's a craft. There's a technique to it that keeps it from being useless or exploding in the user's face.

[1] ""Spiritual Body" is a word that describes an existence with spiritual properties. In other words, a shape is constructed without relying on components with physical properties. On the other hand, "Material Body" means something that is identical in structure as our flesh bodies. A Material Body, just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton. However, a Spirit Body is capable of completely disregarding such physical interference. Attacking a Spiritual Body with a baton or sword (unless they are magical items) will only hit empty space."

- Fate/complete material III, p.018
 
@Sol

That sort of makes even less sense.

I would like some specific examples of it being used in more recent works if that's alright. If it's something that was only explicitly present in old works there is a possibility it has been retconned; plenty of in-verse mechanics have been written out or forgotten about across fiction, just look at JoJo.

So if having a spiritual body is the thing you absolutely need to harm servants, why are we talking about mystery and magic? A hundred-year-old 7-B+ steel sword that has no other special properties would be able to harm a servant going off of previous statements.

What you're implying is that if something is "magical enough" it can harm servants, but that doesn't mesh well with our tiering system, as even among servants there is durability, strength, speed, et cetera. Would a 9-B magic user be able to affect a servant with B-ranked durability just because they have magical energy?

"A Spirit Body is capable of completely disregarding such physical interference. Attacking a Spiritual Body with a baton or sword (unless they are magical items) will only hit empty space."

That completely contradicts earlier quotes where debris and weapons just bounce off of them. That's intangibility, not invulnerability. Also again with spiritual properties being brought up; mystery and magic are left out in this quote for whatever reasons, despite both of them having only physical aspects. If there was actual examples of attacks passing through Servants I might take that more seriously.
 
Well, Im not really good at explaing stuff.

>What you're implying is that if something is "magical enough" it can harm servants, but that doesn't mesh well with our tiering system, as even among servants there is durability, strength, speed, et cetera. Would a 9-B magic user be able to affect a servant with B-ranked durability just because they have magical energy?

Look at fairy tail

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2459627

It was said in this thread that a Low 7-B hurt a 7-A.
 
A Low 7-B hurting a 7-A is either:

  • Hax.
  • PIS/An Outlier.
  • The character should have 7-A attack potency.
  • Exploiting a weakness; and if Servants are weak enough to magic that 9-B attacks would hurt them half the series suddenly stops making sense.
 
I don't see why this is such a big issue. It basically just functions like intangibility, defensively speaking. Attacks need a magical or otherwise supernatural component to hurt them. No one's going to say they'll survive a supernova, but tanking completely plain physical attacks on their level? Why is that so hard to believe?
 
@John

You're taking that out of context. The 7-B could hurt the 7-A because they can negate durability to a limited degree, not because they had magic in general.
 
Also, thanks to Ram for providing this quote from an interview:

Kinoko Nasu: Well you see, attack power is about the same as one fighter. A fighter has way too much power for one person too stand up against, but to destroy one city they'll have to refuel many times. But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful."
 
Promestein said:
No one's going to say they'll survive a supernova, but tanking completely plain physical attacks on their level? Why is that so hard to believe?
Click to expand...
It's hard to believe because it's went from complete invulnerability, to just indestructible at the AP level, to intangibility. The evidence the supporters have provided weaves in an out of itself and contradicts itself on multiple occasions. I'd like a straight answer or no answer.

And yes, there was people implying they could do just that. It hasn't been brought up since I pointed out how ridiculous it was but pretending it wasn't even said is just obtuse.
 
Some people arguing that they could survive a supernova is not reflective of the general viewpoint or the reasoning for why it's on their page right now at all. People will wank anything like that. And I wasn't saying it was intangibility, but that it was like it defensively, because attacks would need a supernatural component to harm them, which is often the case with many intangible characters.

Complete invulnerability isn't a thing, anyways.
 
Reppuzan said:
As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful."
Click to expand...
I'm asking why they don't work. It can be easily explained by durability as even the mid-tiered servants are well above the strongest thermonuclear weapons of the modern era. I'm fine with accepting the ability if I can just get a consistent basis for how it works, which I've yet to see.
 
@Dargoo

From official materials:

"Spiritual Body" is a word that describes an existence with spiritual properties. In other words, a shape is constructed without relying on components with physical properties. On the other hand, "Material Body" means something that is identical in structure as our flesh bodies. A Material Body, just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton. However, a Spirit Body is capable of completely disregarding such physical interference. Attacking a Spiritual Body with a baton or sword (unless they are magical items) will only hit empty space.
 
Yet that's contradicted with them interacting with physical objects such as debris, and weapons bouncing off of servants. I think I've already responded to said quote with this answer before.

Can you provide one example of the intangibility in a single Nasuverse story? I'd be satisfied with that.
 
@Dargoo

There isn't one because no one in the Holy Grail War is dumb enough to try and use a non-magical gun on a Servant.

All firearms and other modern weapons in the series have been used exclusively against humans with the exception of Servants who wield them like Billy the Kid and the submachine guns enhanced to the level of Noble Phantasms by Lancelot's Knight of Owner.

You're asking for the impossible.

Here's another quote from Rin about the nature of Servants:

"Superhuman strength that allows the destruction of a house or two with a single blow… …Certainly, if that thing wished, this town could be in ruins in just one night. And on top of that, the problem is that the Servants are normally in spirit form. Humans can't see those in spirit form. But since the Servants can affect the real world as spirits, you could call them the most powerful weapon. With the technology we have now, there are no weapons that can affect a spiritual being. Our attacks are useless against them, and their attacks can damage us. It's not just a one-sided game. Murder by a Servant is like a natural death for normal people. Death caused by an invisible killer will just be treated as accidental death or suicide."

Again, I don't really see why you're being unnecessarily obtuse about this. There are other series who operate under similar logic and no one bats an eye at them.
 
Reppuzan said:
And on top of that, the problem is that the Servants are normally in spirit form. Humans can't see those in spirit form. But since the Servants can affect the real world as spirits, you could call them the most powerful weapon. With the technology we have now, there are no weapons that can affect a spiritual being. Our attacks are useless against them, and their attacks can damage us. It's not just a one-sided game. Murder by a Servant is like a natural death for normal people. Death caused by an invisible killer will just be treated as accidental death or suicide."
Click to expand...
So this, combined with the feat of Cu stabbing Shirou with Gae Bolg while still in spirit form should mean that the weakness of being unable to attack in spirit form should be removed right?
 
Gae Bolg in this case is more like a curse rather than a spear though, so that's why it could stab like that.

Also, in this wiki at least, isn't the opponent with definitely entire different law to them and fight against them are pretty unknown and mysterious to them already?
 
Aren't servants exclusively invisible and intangible in spirit form though? because I'm pretty sure they're able to interact and be seen by normal humans in multiple occasions through Hollow Artraxia when they're in their "normal" state.

And there is also no indication servants can attack in spirit form at full capacity, otherwise they wouldn't even bother to materialize in front of other servants.
 
AguilaR101 said:
And there is also no indication servants can attack in spirit form at full capacity, otherwise they wouldn't even bother to materialize in front of other servants.
Click to expand...
They can't hit each other in such as state, and transforming into spirit form is too slow to be used in the middle of combat, which explains why they need to enter physical form to do battle as well as why they don't switch between states to dodge.

In anycase, I hoped this would be a simple removal from the profile with no disagreement, but if it is to become a debate, a separate thread should be made.
 
Well there is actaully alot of "physical" attack that can do weird **** in fiction like some guy (i don't remember) can punch the space and time or even reailty with raw power alone.

If some character show to do that then it should be able to bypass the Servant immunity.
 
Reppuzan said:
@Dargoo
You're asking for the impossible.

...

Again, I don't really see why you're being unnecessarily obtuse about this. There are other series who operate under similar logic and no one bats an eye at them.
Click to expand...
What? Asking for an ability only described in a few interviews and vaugly mentioned in dialogue to actually be demonstrated is asking for the impossible?

I've seen verses that actually demonstrate abilities like that have them removed for less. There is plenty reason to beleive that what you're talking about is simply a plot device or one-off thought that was abandoned later in the series. As I've mentioned before, there was quotes mentioned here of weapons bouncing off servants and debris hitting them, and if I actually have to go through the VNs and novels just to point out how many times what you're talking about is contradicted I think you're asking for the impossible.

Other series? You mean JoJo? Legend of Zelda? Verses that have statements just like this that were discarded because the make no sense?
 
Modern weapons are never used against Servants in Fate/stay night, Fate/Zero, Fate/Apocrypha, or Fate/strange fake because:

1) Everyone participating in the story uses magic.

2) Everyone participating in the highly secretive Holy Grail War knows it won't work.

3) Magi have a rabid distaste for modern technology, meaning that with few exceptions none of them will use modern weapons even when given the chance.

4) All instances of hand-to-hand combat or improvised weaponry (i.e. a rolled-up poster) are enhanced with magic.

I mean series like The Zashiki Warashi of Intellectual Village where all of the Yokai are completely unaffected by modern weapons because of the nature of their existence. I've provided quotes and scans repeatedly and Prom and I have stated that we do not expect things to work to a NLF extent.

This isn't even a highly restrictive "Stands can only hurt by Stands" or "Ganondorf can only be killed by the Master Sword" clause. It just means that as spiritual entities they must be harmed with something supernatural and not wholly scientific.
 
The franchies goes on the logic " the older something is the more 'powerful' it is", so something like Guns and knifes that are barelly 10 years old will be innefective againts Augmented Human beings from 200+ years from the past.

From the example of Lugh in the OP, it has been stated that because his 3000 years old no moderen attacks, magical or otherwise can harm him. Even Aoko a True Magician can even harm him.

Thi logic applies to Modern technology becuase of how recent such weponary compared to a human being from acient past. The reason why Magcraft sometimes bypasses this logic is due to how old the Craft can be.

Moderen Magi always passes theiy craft to their children to make the craft older, Rin is said to have supress her Father from a young age and its due to how old her family's craft is since it's gone through five generations when she recived it.

The case of the supernova I belive would work due to its 'the death of a Star after its reach the end of it life' and that's easily millions of years so it would kill a servant since the oldest one is what, 3000 years old?

To clarify on the use of the ' in the first chapter, I know that the logic isn't base on pure strength but I used the term because it was just more easier to use so i put it in '.
 
Fate and I have a strange relationship with VSBattles because of one guy on FB who annoyed me about it, but the guys who are saying that ordinary, modern/physical weapons wouldn't hurt Servants have all the scans to back it up, and sound logic with it, too. It sounds like how the Astral Dresses of Date-A-Live spirits negate damage from physical/manmade sources.

You might be able to argue that non magical means like psychic powers, technobabble, or other stuff could hurt them, but that's more speculation than anything.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
-snip-
Click to expand...
No, asking for too much in a case that's not wholly different from many others who don't receive any attention because they really aren't crossing any guidelines is. Not to mention the actual, direct addressing of these issues in a number of scenarios, some by Rin who's knowledgeable on the matter and another by the Author itself, not to mention pretty good contextual evidence that you somehow see fit to reduce to "vaguely mentioned in a few conversations" while bringing more comparisons that have no precedent. Only Stands can defeat Stands and only Master Sword can defeat Ganon? That's an outright exaggeration.

And who actually at any point said anything about a lack of interaction? Is the fact that those elements have literally no effect on them. Any mension of Non Physicality or Intangibility is a bad worded attempt at a form of explanation what the heck it is, because obviously immunity is a taboo word that needs to be carefully stepped around in here.

You could actually bring all those proofs from the VN and LNs and point out in what relevant way it clashes with anything that's been brought up here.
 
I've always thought that one of the reasons this property of the Servant is considered "Invulnerability/Immunity", is because the vast majority modern weapons wouldn't be able to harm such characters in the first place.

Even some of our most potent nukes wouldn't do much to those 7-B+ to 7-A and higher characters, and I'm pretty sure that since Servants have resistance to natural poisons and stuff, it would be the same for radiations. Besides, I don't think that anyone has ever tried to bring a hydrogen bomb to a Grail War.

Hence why you would need magic-enhanced things to harm them, because normal weapons on their own wouldn't be enough.
 
Actually, there are more 7-B Assassins then there are 9-B assassins. The only 9-B ones I can actually think off the top of my head is Mata Hari and Many Faces Hassan with clone jitzu active.

There's a number of points above I'll address come the next year which are pretty off, mostly through trying to pass off the contradictory intangibility and invulnerablity as one in the same.
 
Let's be honest though: wouldn't a 7-B+ gun have mystery by virtue of being a compact gun that can fire with more force than anything conventionally made by mankind? Heck, I've seen arguments that superpowers like Quirks from MHA would equalize as "mystery" in the context of Fate.
 
JBennett said:
The franchies goes on the logic " the older something is the more 'powerful' it is", so something like Guns and knifes that are barelly 10 years old will be innefective againts Augmented Human beings from 200+ years from the past.
From the example of Lugh in the OP, it has been stated that because his 3000 years old no moderen attacks, magical or otherwise can harm him. Even Aoko a True Magician can even harm him.

Thi logic applies to Modern technology becuase of how recent such weponary compared to a human being from acient past. The reason why Magcraft sometimes bypasses this logic is due to how old the Craft can be.

Moderen Magi always passes theiy craft to their children to make the craft older, Rin is said to have supress her Father from a young age and its due to how old her family's craft is since it's gone through five generations when she recived it.

The case of the supernova I belive would work due to its 'the death of a Star after its reach the end of it life' and that's easily millions of years so it would kill a servant since the oldest one is what, 3000 years old?

To clarify on the use of the ' in the first chapter, I know that the logic isn't base on pure strength but I used the term because it was just more easier to use so i put it in '.
Click to expand...
By this logic that mean fist >>>>>>> gun
 
Even Kuzuki, far below a weakened Archer after losing Caster's buff, is described as capable of crushing an human skull with one of his punches.

So in fate, depending who you are, totally fist>>>>>>normal gun.
 
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