-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Servant Immunity
- Thread starter Solacis
- Start date
- 135
- 12
So Naruto could kill a Servant by punching them a lot.
- 135
- 12
Could Hank Hill if he saw Gilgamesh using Charcoal instead of Propane? In one episode, he wears a devil outfit, so that's witchcraft.
Could a fully charcoallusted Hank Hill take on Gilgamesh?
Could a fully charcoallusted Hank Hill take on Gilgamesh?
- 8,753
- 1,617
Just look at Dargoo's comments and that may tell you something. No real consensus so far but he's not buying it.Solacis said:
- 135
- 12
You'd need magic/some ability which bypasses their resistance/immunity via hax to overcome them from what I've seen. People not being convinced doesn't mean anything when multiple scans, scenes, and WoG have been brought up which says that it's true.
- 15,637
- 5,392
>magic/some ability which bypasses their resistance/immunity
What happened to something being spiritual or something having mystery?
>People not being convinced doesn't mean anything when multiple scans, scenes, and WoG have been brought up which says that it's true
When many of the scans/scenes/WoG weave in and out of each other and in some cases outright contradict each other, the ability hasn't been demonstrated (At least the intangibility aspect), and the volume of statements is frankly not as high as you're making it out to be, yes, I have a right to be skeptical.
What happened to something being spiritual or something having mystery?
>People not being convinced doesn't mean anything when multiple scans, scenes, and WoG have been brought up which says that it's true
When many of the scans/scenes/WoG weave in and out of each other and in some cases outright contradict each other, the ability hasn't been demonstrated (At least the intangibility aspect), and the volume of statements is frankly not as high as you're making it out to be, yes, I have a right to be skeptical.
- 8,753
- 1,617
Because, like I said before, the intangibility description is a crude attempt at trying to describe it because there's not any real definitive name to put on it, besides a form of limited invulnerability. It's not about attacks going through, is about attacks doing nothing to them.
Again, mention the actual contradictions you are bringing up, and not using intangibility as a measure of how it works, because part of what I saw up there was you bringing up things like rocks blown away by attacks impacting the servants like they were physical. It feels like you have an incorrect idea about it.
Again, mention the actual contradictions you are bringing up, and not using intangibility as a measure of how it works, because part of what I saw up there was you bringing up things like rocks blown away by attacks impacting the servants like they were physical. It feels like you have an incorrect idea about it.
- 1,673
- 289
Their invulnerability is most certainly not intangibility based. Kuzuki after losing the magical buffs provided by Caster could still interact with Archer.
- 13,587
- 5,754
...... sigh. No one is saying they are intangible, intangibility is being used as a crude comparison as stated by SirLance.
Think of it like this, Servant immunity is like an indestructible semi-permeable wall that only allows magic or mystery through. Without either of the two, everything just bounces off the wall.
I dunno how to dumb it down anymore so if you fail to understand, I can't help you.
Think of it like this, Servant immunity is like an indestructible semi-permeable wall that only allows magic or mystery through. Without either of the two, everything just bounces off the wall.
I dunno how to dumb it down anymore so if you fail to understand, I can't help you.
- 8,753
- 1,617
I think part of the problem is the implication of an ability like this having hard to define limits that can climb immensely into NLF territory.
But, thing is, comparisons like black holes or suns or supernovas literally prove nothing. Mystery builds naturally with time, even Shiki's sword with a few hundred years had mystery. Is just not the only way as Shiki herself was described as something on the level of a mystery despite being human, and Kishima Kouma reaching the level of an actual mystery not unlike a magical beast.
But, thing is, comparisons like black holes or suns or supernovas literally prove nothing. Mystery builds naturally with time, even Shiki's sword with a few hundred years had mystery. Is just not the only way as Shiki herself was described as something on the level of a mystery despite being human, and Kishima Kouma reaching the level of an actual mystery not unlike a magical beast.
- 40,473
- 12,954
Okay, put Berserker or Saber against say, Cyborg (Post-Flashpoint), for example. Or Ultron (Marvel Comics). Or Sigma (Mega Man). They're all man made robots with technological weapons, despite said weapons being beyond planetary and hax. How in your opinion does this play out?
This isn't me trying to be sarcastic. I want to know what is the primary consensus for the Fate side.
This isn't me trying to be sarcastic. I want to know what is the primary consensus for the Fate side.
- 16,606
- 1,791
Sufficiently advanced technology can also take on mystery. So it kinda doubles back on itself if you bring up technology that is super broken
- 8,753
- 1,617
That's something I'd prefer Rep to answer, because I am not sure I can give a sufficient or satisfying explanation.
That said, the mere oddity of them all put them above anything that could be considered normal by Nasuverse standards. Not even talking about Ultron, I mean Cyborg can literally assimilate Alien technology he might have never seen before, and the Moon Cell/Velber aren't much more than hyper advanced technology (though it ***** with things like spiritrons, not to mention Altera being specialized designed to battle things around planet Earth on the Age of the Gods, but regardless).
That said, the mere oddity of them all put them above anything that could be considered normal by Nasuverse standards. Not even talking about Ultron, I mean Cyborg can literally assimilate Alien technology he might have never seen before, and the Moon Cell/Velber aren't much more than hyper advanced technology (though it ***** with things like spiritrons, not to mention Altera being specialized designed to battle things around planet Earth on the Age of the Gods, but regardless).
- 21,783
- 4,826
Mystery depends on the time period though.
Archer doesn't have much mystery because he's from the future, so there's no mystery about him in the past(which is weird, shouldn't a guy from the future be super mysterious because no one knows about him?)
And mystery started dying out the more advanced technology became IIRC because people were understanding more about what they could do with tech so it was no longer mysterious.
Archer doesn't have much mystery because he's from the future, so there's no mystery about him in the past
And mystery started dying out the more advanced technology became IIRC because people were understanding more about what they could do with tech so it was no longer mysterious.
- 135
- 12
He's still potentially one of the strongest servants though.
- 8,753
- 1,617
Not so much strongest, rather having nifty tools he knows how to abuse.
Still, this is a bit derailing.
Still, this is a bit derailing.
- 11,444
- 1,998
@Cal
Post-Flashpoint Cyborg would easily bypass Servant Immunity on the basis that his tech is made by the New Gods, who are literal gods. He can also tap into metaphysical forces like the multiverse itself.
Ultron has tapped into magical forces before like the Odinforce and has frequently traded blows with gods, so I don't see why he wouldn't be able to harm a Servant.
In any case, all of these characters would be able to wipe the floor with the average Servant on the basis that the scale of their abilities would easily match a Divine Spirit in terms of power. Things like Star level power, terraforming planets, and metaphysical forces are definitely supernatural enough to harm a Servant.
That's why I keep saying that the whole "Servants can tank technological 4-B attacks" is utter bull, because it's made repeatedly clear that this sort of power is relegated to some of the most powerful forms of mystery in the series.
Post-Flashpoint Cyborg would easily bypass Servant Immunity on the basis that his tech is made by the New Gods, who are literal gods. He can also tap into metaphysical forces like the multiverse itself.
Ultron has tapped into magical forces before like the Odinforce and has frequently traded blows with gods, so I don't see why he wouldn't be able to harm a Servant.
In any case, all of these characters would be able to wipe the floor with the average Servant on the basis that the scale of their abilities would easily match a Divine Spirit in terms of power. Things like Star level power, terraforming planets, and metaphysical forces are definitely supernatural enough to harm a Servant.
That's why I keep saying that the whole "Servants can tank technological 4-B attacks" is utter bull, because it's made repeatedly clear that this sort of power is relegated to some of the most powerful forms of mystery in the series.
- 15,637
- 5,392
Perhaps a lower tiered technological character would make for interesting discussion.
Someone drops the Tsar Bomba directly on top of Hans Christian Anderson.
Someone drops the Tsar Bomba directly on top of Hans Christian Anderson.
- 13,587
- 5,754
The little blue boy tanks with no issue.
- 9,528
- 1,824
Budget waver tanks it due to the bomb not being dropped by a servant and normally lacking the mystery or magic in order to affect the servant coreDargoo Faust said:
- 9,253
- 2,731
Wait, wait:
So basically, this "mystery" thing is more or less "the more ancient you are, the more you have it".
If that is the case, let's pick a character like, I don't know, Kars, and let's assume he's 7-A (which he was at a certain point, but he got downgraded):
Kars, while having a purely biological/scientific arsenal of abilities, he is 150,000 years old Pillarman, and inhuman evolved being who was even worshipped as a God by ancient humans, and he enhanced himself with a tool that he personally made 12.000 prior to 1939 (at which point in time, there very few human "civilizations"), and afterwise further powered up the Stone Mask with the Super Aja, a Stone which was around since late Republican Rome, and turned himself into the ultimate Being, which had the power of each and every living being to have ever existed on earth.
Would this give him enough "mystery" to affect a Servant?
So basically, this "mystery" thing is more or less "the more ancient you are, the more you have it".
If that is the case, let's pick a character like, I don't know, Kars, and let's assume he's 7-A (which he was at a certain point, but he got downgraded):
Kars, while having a purely biological/scientific arsenal of abilities, he is 150,000 years old Pillarman, and inhuman evolved being who was even worshipped as a God by ancient humans, and he enhanced himself with a tool that he personally made 12.000 prior to 1939 (at which point in time, there very few human "civilizations"), and afterwise further powered up the Stone Mask with the Super Aja, a Stone which was around since late Republican Rome, and turned himself into the ultimate Being, which had the power of each and every living being to have ever existed on earth.
Would this give him enough "mystery" to affect a Servant?
- 15,637
- 5,392
- 21,390
- 2,978
Yeah, even pretty recent people like Thomas Edison have mystery.
@DmB
@DmB
- 15,637
- 5,392
A tsar bomba constructed on a space station using materials from another planet is dropped on Hans.
- 21,390
- 2,978
It would work, since it's not from Earth.
- 11,444
- 1,998
@Dargoo
The meteor would kill him easily because such an event is one of Quetzalcoatl's Noble Phantasms.
If no one on Earth can easily understand how the bomb works scientifically due to it being of alien origin, sure. The sun gods of the Nasuverse are all aliens who arrived on Earth as bacteria.
@DMB
Absolutely, yes.
The meteor would kill him easily because such an event is one of Quetzalcoatl's Noble Phantasms.
If no one on Earth can easily understand how the bomb works scientifically due to it being of alien origin, sure. The sun gods of the Nasuverse are all aliens who arrived on Earth as bacteria.
@DMB
Absolutely, yes.
- 9,528
- 1,824
So did anything ever come of this thread or did it just die
- 2,703
- 681
- Thread starter
- #114
Re-reading through this entire thread one more time, basically, mystery is just a hell of a lot simpler than a lot of us originally made it out to be. Taking away all the magic-system's technical mumbo jumbo, it all just amounts to whether or not the mechanics of a form of attack are understood by the modern era's humans?
Say, a punch is a punch. People know how punches work, and they know how much damage they tend to deal. They can be this strong or this weak, and even if most people don't know the exact numbers, they can easily believe it when they see it.
But if a punch suddenly causes explosions on impact, sets things on fire, affects a higher or lower spatial dimension, or if the damage dealt by the punch far surpasses what's considered "normal" by the modern era, then it has mystery because it is a mystery, of a sort. Older things have more mystery because the farther back in history we go, the less we actually know for sure. That even knowing what happened in myths and legends actually happened, it's unbelievable that they did because by modern points of view, the feats don't make sense and thus, are mysterious.
Am I getting this right?
Say, a punch is a punch. People know how punches work, and they know how much damage they tend to deal. They can be this strong or this weak, and even if most people don't know the exact numbers, they can easily believe it when they see it.
But if a punch suddenly causes explosions on impact, sets things on fire, affects a higher or lower spatial dimension, or if the damage dealt by the punch far surpasses what's considered "normal" by the modern era, then it has mystery because it is a mystery, of a sort. Older things have more mystery because the farther back in history we go, the less we actually know for sure. That even knowing what happened in myths and legends actually happened, it's unbelievable that they did because by modern points of view, the feats don't make sense and thus, are mysterious.
Am I getting this right?
- 21,390
- 2,978
Yes.
- 2,703
- 681
- Thread starter
- #116
So we have clearly defined limits for Servant Immunity. Is there really anything left to discuss?
I mean if being "obviously abnormal" is literally the only requirement to affect Servants, then practically every character above 9-A can bypass the defense. Even those that are in Tier 9 can, if they're at their tier due to physical feats. Hell, anything in the realms of science fiction and fantasy can bypass SI.
Also, doesn't this just make said immunity obsolete? Consider the fact that practically every Servant is at least 7-B, and thus, anything that can put up a fair fight against them is automatically abnormal enough by the standards of the Nasuverse's normal humans to affect them anyway.
I mean if being "obviously abnormal" is literally the only requirement to affect Servants, then practically every character above 9-A can bypass the defense. Even those that are in Tier 9 can, if they're at their tier due to physical feats. Hell, anything in the realms of science fiction and fantasy can bypass SI.
Also, doesn't this just make said immunity obsolete? Consider the fact that practically every Servant is at least 7-B, and thus, anything that can put up a fair fight against them is automatically abnormal enough by the standards of the Nasuverse's normal humans to affect them anyway.
- 21,390
- 2,978
Yes.
- 13,587
- 5,754
I wouldn't say its completely obsolete. While most beings that could fight Servants are definitely abnormal and woud bypass it, Nasuverse does have cybernetics and the like that are 7-B+ (using pre revision Tiers) so there is a large enough purview where it is still relevant. Not to mention some Servants like Jack, Medea, Avicebron, William and Hundred-Faces who can otherwise be harmed by things withing human means/technology if not for the Servant Immunity.
- 9,528
- 1,824
Sufficiently advanced technology has mystery as does magecraft also I don't remember any of the listed servants being harmed by non servants
