Undertale General CRT: The Sequel (Now 8-C too)

[StrymULTRA]

We already got nice things for Undertale, but this should be the last thing for now about low tiers.

Mid DT Frisk removal

Alright so "Mid Determination" for Frisk shouldn't exist at all. It scales to literally no one in the profiles and the explosion was in a context similar to Chara's fall, as Frisk was just cooking with "a burning passion". So I suggest two options:

1. The 7 Megajoules calc becomes the new baseline for the 9-B in the verse, as Frisk was caught off-guard from the explosion and it was not in a fighting situation, similairly to Chara's fall.
2. The feat just becomes a supporting feat for 9-A as Frisk was still able to deal minimal damage to an Undyne with 21 DEF with a fake attack, implying their DT was amped from the "intense cooking lesson".

Regardless of what comes, it should be removed and become a part of either Minimal or Great DT.

Speed revisions

Alright, so Vulkin's lightnings have been accepted as MHS+ from two CGMs here.

The argument against it is that Vulkin's lightning so not behave as real ones and/or are magic so they do not fill the criteria for being cloud-to-ground lightning speed, but I've adressed those arguments under the comment. So if you have something against this, just read my arguments there first.

Meaning that every Supersonic+ and Hypersonic character just becomes Massively Hypersonic+.

The only ones who upscale from Frisk's 5302.24 Mach value though are:

• Frisk with Immense Determination and Photoshop Flowey for reasons already said in the profile.
• Sans but only for Reaction Speed and Gaster Blasters' Attack Speed, as even after Frisk's speed was maxed from taking the Sea Teas, he could still effortessly dodge all of their attacks during the fight and the Gaster Blasters still required aim dodging to be avoided.

And this is pretty much all. The slowest MHS+ characters like Papyrus would just scale from the 2414.68 Mach value and higher MHS+ characters like Mettaton or Undyne instead upscale from 3848.4 Mach.

Flowey's 9-A stuff

Honestly base Flowey's stuff is ass. Let's see the AP:

Capable of casually crippling a minimally Determined Frisk.

That's 9-B

Should be able to trade blows with opponents capable of harming him.

He has Unknown durability

Flowey's level of strength in the face of monsters varies with his LV, which increases when he kills enemies. He has gained enough LV to kill everyone in the Underground on multiple occasions, although LOVE primarily measures violence and willingness to hurt, which is extremely effective against monsters. His LV goes back to zero when he resets

Not dealing with the "LV = Boost" thing but Flowey's minimum tier for both AP and dura should still be 9-A because of some factors.

• Flowey can kill everyone in the Underground except for Asgore, as Flowey explicitly could never defeat him no matter what. This means he should at least downscale from Undyne as unlike characters like Toriel or Papyrus she never holds back.
• Flowey couls tank an attack from Toriel, though we don't know how serious she was, but it's still a supporting feat for him being able to tank attacks from Undyne and the likes of her.
• Flowey could almost oneshot Frisk with a very casual attack, to throw another supporting thing.

So yeah... he shoud be 9-A as well.

Edit: Nvm, the stuff on him is too shaky, so both him and Frisk get a Varies through LV as explained here.

8-C upgrades and STATs revision (Brought up mid-thread)

This was brought up mid thread from @Adem_Warlock69. As Vulkin's attacks are real lightning, they would have the same power as those, aka 1.6 billion Joules or 0.38 Tons. We also got mid-thread other two calcs for 8-C, which are:

• Mettaton EX's legs KE - 0.47 Tons
• Knight Knight creates a sun - 0.89 Tons

So we got 3 8-C feats, and pretty much everyone would either scale or downscale from the 0.89 calc, given that Papyrus, who has only 20 ATK, has been deemed very strong from Undyne, who has 50 ATK, thus is stronger than Knight Knight who has 36. Characters who are very high in stats (Asgore, Undyne the Undying, etc.) simply upscale to 8-C+ given that the gap is only x1.26

Human SOULs because of this will become 7-C.

Plus, given how STATs are still a bit of a mess in the profiles, I have listed here some things to fix them, making anything from 0 to 17 for ATK/DEF value 9-B and from 18 and up 8-C.

TLDR

• Mid tier DT Frisk gets nuked with this being likely an upgrade for 9-B characters
• Supersonic+ and Hypersonic get both replaced from Massively Hypersonic+
• Base Flowey gets 9-A 8-C in both AP and durability
• NEW: Every 9-A becomes 8-C
• NEW: ATK/DEF up to 17 will be 9-B and from 18 will be 8-C

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I say we go with option#2 for the Mid-DT Frisk thing since Min-DT Frisk shouldn't be leagues above Chara, who was heavily injured by the 9-B fall
As for this,

Flowey's 9-A stuff

I actually made a downgrade thread about this a while ago, it wasn't really finished since it got no Staff input, but the current consensus is "At least 9-B, possibly 9-A"
since,

Flowey can kill everyone in the Underground except for Asgore, as Flowey explicitly could never defeat him no matter what. This means he should at least downscale from Undyne as unlike characters like Toriel or Papyrus she never holds back.

Monsters are susceptible to ill intentions. The stronger the hatred or intent to kill, the more damage is inflicted upon the monster.

This is the statement Toriel says when you strike her down towards the Genocide run. She was determined to test your strength, but was clearly shocked when you offed her at once. In just a single strike, and her only thought was that there must have been intense negative emotions for her to die so easily. Even if we don’t really know how strong Toriel could be, she still is a boss monster. And is incredible knowledgeable due to the fact she was the brains of the kingdom.

So even if Flowey didn't use his power to reload/the element of surprise to murder people, Flowey wouldn't fully-scale to the monster he kills and this is without accounting the increased "emotional distancing" that higher LVs give
Flowey also never said that Asgore was the only monster he could kill without LOVE, afterall, Asgore is as powerful as Toriel, and Undyne/Mettaton shouldn't be far behind them both.
Scaling Flowey to Papyrus and lower 9-As requires a bit too much speculation (Like Flowey not gaining any LOVE before fighting them, or not attacking them when their emotional defenses are down)

Moreover, If Asgore and potentially Sans were so difficult that Flowey, an extraordinarily determined being, considered their fights to be literally impossible, then he would still believe that he’s done everything the world has to offer.
For example, Frisk can do "everything" the game has to offer without having to kill Box Mettaton

Flowey couls tank an attack from Toriel, though we don't know how serious she was, but it's still a supporting feat for him being able to tank attacks from Undyne and the likes of her.

Toriel values both the lives of humans and monsters. This is evident in both the pacifist route, where she says "As terrible as ASGORE is... He deserves mercy. too."

Toriel's also casual attack knocking Asgore back also doesn't mean she put the same amount of effort in both. Toriel knows how powerful Asgore is, but she'd have no reason to assume some random Ruins Monster could take something that sent the "Strongest Monster of all" flying
Plus, Toriel nullified Flowey's pellets before attacking him, which should probably give her a rough estimate of how strong Flowey is anyway

And the last Flowey feat is 9-B

 

[StrymULTRA]

Monsters are susceptible to ill intentions. The stronger the hatred or intent to kill, the more damage is inflicted upon the monster.

This is the statement Toriel says when you strike her down towards the Genocide run. She was determined to test your strength, but was clearly shocked when you offed her at once. In just a single strike, and her only thought was that there must have been intense negative emotions for her to die so easily. Even if we don’t really know how strong Toriel could be, she still is a boss monster. And is incredible knowledgeable due to the fact she was the brains of the kingdom.

So even if Flowey didn't use his power to reload/the element of surprise to murder people, Flowey wouldn't fully-scale to the monster he kills and this is without accounting the increased "emotional distancing" that higher LVs give
Flowey also never said that Asgore was the only monster he could kill without LOVE, afterall, Asgore is as powerful as Toriel, and Undyne/Mettaton shouldn't be far behind them both.
Scaling Flowey to Papyrus and lower 9-As requires a bit too much speculation (Like Flowey not gaining any LOVE before fighting them, or not attacking them when their emotional defenses are down)

Moreover, If Asgore and potentially Sans were so difficult that Flowey, an extraordinarily determined being, considered their fights to be literally impossible, then he would still believe that he’s done everything the world has to offer.
For example, Frisk can do "everything" the game has to offer without having to kill Box Mettaton

Your argument has an issue... Mettaton himself. He's not a monster, he's a robot made of magic and metal. No reason why he would be weak to murder intent unlike the other monsters, he does not turn to dust at death too.

The only reason he got one-shotted from Frisk was his Low DEF and nothing else.

Also, monsters' attack does not lower against murder intent, just the defense, meaning that Flowey had to tank those attacks.

Undyne/Mettaton shouldn't be far behind them both.

Undyne does say that what Asgore would do against Frisk is so horrible that what she's doing is mercy in comparison. I wouldn't say they should be too relative in power tbf.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Glad Dummy takes on monster properties when she perfectly possesses something, so should Mettaton. This is shown in the aborted Genocide Route, where due to lower killing intent, you do far less damage to Mettaton NEO

G… GUESS SHE SHOULD HAVE WORKED MORE ON THE DEFENSES…
…
YOU MAY HAVE DEFEATED ME… BUT…
I KNOW. I CAN TELL FROM THAT STRIKE, DARLING.
YOU WERE HOLDING BACK.
YES, ASGORE WILL FALL EASILY TO YOU…
BUT YOU WON’T HARM HUMANITY, WILL YOU?
YOU AREN’T ABSOLUTELY EVIL.
IF YOU WERE TRYING TO BE, THEN YOU MESSED UP.
AND SO LATE INTO THE SHOW, TOO.
HA… HA. AT LEAST NOW, I CAN REST EASY.
KNOWING ALPHYS AND THE HUMANS WILL LIVE ON…!

Also, Flowey uses Magic, which should target Mettaton's SOUL, which isn't made of metal

 

[StrymULTRA]

Glad Dummy takes on monster properties when she perfectly possesses something, so should Mettaton.

Nah, it was because it has literally only 1 DEF lol.

Also, Flowey uses Magic, which should target Mettaton's SOUL, which isn't made of metal

Fair.

But the thing is more about the durability. Flowey should definitely be able to take serious 9-A attacks, he definitely can't do no-hit runs, so he must have to have tanked attacks from these kind of characters.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Also, monsters' attack does not lower against murder intent, just the defense, meaning that Flowey had to tank those attacks.

We have no clue how any of these fights went, Flowey might have killed everyone in one-shot like what what happened in Genocide, or just sneaked up on them, or any other ways where he doesn't let them attack, like I don't see how Flowey would defeat Toriel, who can casually nullify his bullets without a betrayal kill
Plus, LOVE increases DEF, so it could have also just been that Flowey's LOVE increased his dura to virtually 9-A, who really knows

Undyne does say that what Asgore would do against Frisk is so horrible that what she's doing is mercy in comparison. I wouldn't say they should be too relative in power tbf.

Undyne is still capable of knocking down Asgore in training and forcibly removed Toriel off her castle, don't think someone of Undyne's power would believe there's no way they can defeat Asgore, even with the ability to exploit his weakness to murderous intent + Having a bunch of LV

 

[StrymULTRA]

We have no clue how any of these fights went, Flowey might have killed everyone in one-shot like what what happened in Genocide, or just sneaked up on them, or any other ways where he doesn't let them attack, like I don't see how Flowey would defeat Toriel, who can casually nullifie his bullets without a betrayal kill
Plus, LOVE increases DEF, so it could have also just been that Flowey's LOVE increased his dura to virtually 9-A, who really knows

So we give a "Varies from 9-B to 9-A through LV"? Because the HPs also increase through LV, so heh.

Undyne is still capable of knocking down Asgore in training and forcibly removed Toriel off her castle, don't think someone of Undyne's power would believe there's no way they can defeat Asgore, even with the ability to exploit his weakness to murderous intent + Having a bunch of LV

Tbh Toriel was overthrown from Undyne more like just because she didn't feel like fighting back, as everyone as against her.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

So we give a "Varies from 9-B to 9-A through LV"? Because the HPs also increase through LV, so heh.

I think that works, yeah

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think that works, yeah

Shouldn't that be given to Frisk too? Because they do gain a similar increase, also because Undyne the Undying does not get really affected from murder intent thanks to her DT, as she takes far less damage than any other monster and even harms harder despite Frisk is LV 10 in both a No Mercy and Genocide Run when facing her.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Shouldn't that be given to Frisk too? Because they do gain a similar increase, also because Undyne the Undying does not get really affected from murder intent thanks to her DT, as she takes far less damage than any other monster and even harms harder despite Frisk is LV 10 in both a No Mercy and Genocide Run when facing her.

Frisk already varies from 9-B to 9-A, so I guess it'd look like this? "Varies from 9-B to 9-A through LV/Determination, at least 8-B with Immense Determination, likely far higher with Peak Determination"
I kinda see Undying taking far less damage from a LV 10 Frisk as her just being really strong, she does afterall have the same stats as a Real Knife/Heart Locket Frisk

 

[StrymULTRA]

Frisk already varies from 9-B to 9-A, so I guess it'd look like this? "Varies from 9-B to 9-A through LV/Determination, at least 8-B with Immense Determination, likely far higher with Peak Determination"

Basically yes. Flowey even says that LV makes the SOUL stronger, and we have no reason to believe why this statement of his would be wrong.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Regardless, some justifications can be:

Flowey: Varies through LV from Wall level to Small Building level (Flowey's amount of strength varies with his LV, which increases when he kills enemies, with him at LV 1 being already able to easily almost one-shot a Frisk at LV 1 with minimal Determination. From gaining enough LV, he could kill everyone in the Underground, thus making him able to harm and eventually kill also the likes of Undyne and Mettaton EX, although LOVE primarily measures violence and willingness to hurt, which is extremely effective against monsters, and he still couldn't defeat Asgore even once. His LV goes back to zero when he resets)

Frisk: Varies through Determination and LV. Wall level with Minimal Determination and LV 1 (Should be the same as their durability, as both their ATK and DEF have the value of 0, making them superior to Snowgrake's Mother), Small Building level with Great Determination (Defeated Asgore while not trying to kill him), higher with LV 20 (Frisk can also increase their power from gaining LV up to 20, although LOVE primarily measures violence and willingness to hurt, which is extremely effective against monsters. At LV 20 they are immensely superior to their LV 10 self, who could harm and eventually kill Undyne the Undying), at least City Block level with Immense Determination (The full power of Frisk's SOUL rivals the entirety of the Underground.[3] Can inflict minimum damage to a suppressed Photoshop Flowey), likely far higher with Peak Determination (While Frisk was seemingly unable to physically hurt Asriel, their Determination was stopping Asriel from doing a TRUE RESET, thus forcing Asriel to defeat Frisk in order to gain control over the timeline[6])

The current durability justification for Flowey is ass and Frisk does not need that much of a change though.

Edit: Updated the OP.

 

[ShionAH]

I agree with everything

 

[Arceus0x]

Based, agree

 

[Roachman40]

changes look good

 

[Psychomaster35]

This should be fine.

By the way, if we are re-accepting Tsunderplane’s speed as Massively Hypersonic+, wouldn’t that mean we would get Town level Undertale again? And also, with the new scaling, it will definitely upgrade the tier of a human SOUL.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This should be fine.

By the way, if we are re-accepting Tsunderplane’s speed as Massively Hypersonic+, wouldn’t that mean we would get Town level Undertale again? And also, with the new scaling, it will definitely upgrade the tier of a human SOUL.

Nah, it'd be an outlier to count KE in it.

One of the rules is to NOT account for it if the results are not in line with the what's happening, and it should be discarded if it's not right.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Oh yeah, Tier 7 Undertale definitely CAN'T be a thing.

• Speed for Kinetic Energy cannot be used when the calculated kinetic energy value is heavily inconsistent with the rest of the cast in the series. EX: Quicksilver's calculated speed cannot be used to derive kinetic energy as it heavily contradicts his established power levels.

So 9-A it is.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

This should work.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Think this is what downgraded MHS+ in the first place, so I think it's pretty important to mention,

Vulkins lightning is cloud to ground lightning
This is likely spawned from the idea that lightning is fake unless it is cloud to ground, therefore literally anything that comes from some kind of cloud and shoots downwards must be real lightning.

Vulkings cloud is not even a real cloud for starters. It is a tesla sized white cloud themed object (much like how vulkin is a volcano themed monster and not a literal volcano) with a smile on its face. And neither is vulkin an actual real volcano. It shoots lightning bolts from its sides and fires them as their own individual projectiles. this is not how lightning functions at all. Actual cloud to ground lightning does not fly out as individual cartoonish bolts like bullets, they stream out of the cloud.

On top of many of the "lightning bolts" shoot upwards and sideways and dont even hit the ground. Yet some of them stemming from a literal fake cloud and hitting the ground.

So lets go over the many things that contradict this being actual lightning as opposed to fake lightning.

-The cloud itself is not a real cloud nor functions as a lightning cloud -The lightning itself is as cartoonish as you can make it and does not function like normal lightning -Some of the lightning doesnt hit the ground and flies upwards as if you were shooting a projectile into the air -Monsters attacks are explicit magic. Lightning is not a magical object by any means.

Saying vulkins lightning is real requires way to much assumptions and burden of proof. Vulkins lightning is merely an electrical projectile which is shaped and themed like lightning which is also consistent everything else in the surroundings and the other cartoonish monsters and projectiles within undertale. The latter is further justified through ockhams razor as it requires far less speculation and more reasonable logic.

I would also like to bring up the argument that mettaton was able to hit frisk with electricity which was a direct technological attack and not lightning. The counter argument is that frisk was minimally determined and was not in a full fight scenario.

However it should be noted, he was able to tank hits from mettaton who had thirty attack. Frisks determination scales to the opponents attack and not durability (as shown by the fight with jerry where frisk could only chip away at jerrys hp due to his durability being so high). Which is why he doesnt ever reach mettatons defence and tank his attacks.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Think this is what downgraded MHS+ in the first place, so I think it's pretty important to mention,

The same thread was brought up in the comment of the calc and I already countered it. Please read it before copypasting something I already addressed.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

The same thread was brought up in the comment of the calc and I already countered it. Please read it before copypasting something I already addressed.

Lad, the thread they linked was from 2021, this is the 2019 thread that downgraded Undertale from 7-C to 9-A

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Agreed with Strym GGs

 

[StrymULTRA]

Lad, the thread they linked was from 2021, this is the 2019 thread that downgraded Undertale from 7-C to 9-A

It uses the same argument lmao.

Argue with the stuff I said there or shut up.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Argue with the stuff I said there or shut up.

Tone it down.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Argue with the stuff I said there or shut up.

While it is true that some magical attacks in Undertale are somewhat similar to their real-world counterparts, using your examples, Papyrus' bones already being treated as actual bones. This, however, does not necessarily mean that all magical attacks in the game are the same as their real-world phenomena. Like for example, despite both Greater Dog and Shyren using sound-based attacks, and should consequently have roughly the same speed, Sad-Shyren's notes are noticeable slower than Greater Dog's barks, the former is even able to control the speed of her notes. The best example of this, however, is definitely Knight Knight, his attacks include:

• Creating a Moon which results in a meteor shower that appears in from the top left of the screen
• Creating the Sun which then starts shooting solar flares in a clockwise direction

I don't think I need to explain why those two aren't anywhere similar to their irl counterparts

But this shouldn't matter if Vulkin's lightning actually passes the requirements for real lightning, right? Well here's the thing, It doesn't.
Vulkin's cloud is nothing like a real cloud. If the bullet board scale is to be taken as factual, the "cloud" would be about the size of an infant. (Plus it has a face)
It also shoots lightning bolts from its sides, upwards and sideways, and fires them as their own individual projectiles, which is not how lightning functions at all.
And since these don't even hit the ground, it doesn't qualifie for the number 1 rule for these kind of feats, which is being "Cloud-to-ground lightning"
The only reason we even accepted it being Electricity in the first place, was because the requirements for that were way less strict then lightning

 

[StrymULTRA]

Like for example, despite both Greater Dog and Shyren using sound-based attacks, and as a result both should consequently have roughly the same speed, but sad-Shyren's notes are noticeable slower than Greater Dog's barks, the former is even able to control the speed of her notes.

Toriel can as well control the heat of her fire, so Shyren can do so as well with her sound attacks.

The best example of this, however, is definitely Knight Knight, his attacks include:

• Creating a Moon which results in a meteor shower that appears in from the top left of the screen
• Creating the Sun which then starts shooting solar flares in a clockwise direction

I don't think I need to explain why those two aren't anywhere similar to their irl counterparts

Tbh those can indeed be calcable and for the former they can reach a decent result lol. While the meteors just can't because of them being underground, the Sun is definitely possible.

Vulkin's cloud is nothing like a real cloud. If the bullet board scale is to be taken as factual, the "cloud" would be about the size of an infant. (Plus it has a face)

Artstyle, and if 3 CGMs agreed with it being cloud-to-lightning, you have a problem. This is not the first time where you're so nitpicky about Undertale, so, please.

It also shoots lightning bolts from its sides, upwards and sideways, and fires them as their own individual projectiles, which is not how lightning functions at all.

Already said why it's like that. It's meant to be dodgeable unlike Asriel's version.

And since these don't even hit the ground, it doesn't qualifie for the number 1 rule for these kind of feats, which is being "Cloud-to-ground lightning"

Why even assume it doesn't when Frisk IS at the ground?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Toriel can as well control the heat of her fire, so Shyren can do so as well with her sound attacks.

That's the thing tho, if monster can create stuff that differences this much from it's irl counterparts, why should we treat the lightning as real?

Tbh those can indeed be calcable and for the former they can reach a decent result lol. While the meteors just can't because of them being underground, the Sun is definitely possible.

Still, saying Vulkin's lightning is real is akin to saying Knight Knight actually created Moon-sized and Sun-sized celestial bodies, or that the meteors came from space

Artstyle, and if 3 CGMs agreed with it being cloud-to-lightning, you have a problem. This is not the first time where you're so nitpicky about Undertale, so, please.

The fact that the cloud has a stylized appearance and behaves in a way that is inconsistent with real-world lightning suggests that it is intentionally designed to be magical or fantastical rather than realistic.
The CGMs agreement doesn't necessarily override the fact that the lightning in Undertale doesn't match up with how real lightning works

Already said why it's like that. It's meant to be dodgeable unlike Asriel's version.

It being meant to be dodgeable doesn't somehow change the fact that it doesn't behave anything like its real-world counterpart?
Plus, shouldn't we like also take the feats like how they are actually presented, despite the game limitations? I remember that being what most people said to something about how WWE can't show actual competent swordsmanship

Why even assume it doesn't when Frisk IS at the ground?

I'm not saying they all don't hit the ground, I'm saying SOME of the bolts don't even hit the ground, which contradicts the cloud-to-ground lightning standard.

No matter how you look at it, Vulkin's attack doesn't behave anything like real-world lightning.
Vulkin's "cloud" is not a real cloud and does not behave like one, the lightning it produces is highly stylized and cartoonish, with individual bolts shooting in various directions, which is not how real lightning behaves and not all of the bolts hit the ground, which contradicts the definition of cloud-to-ground lightning.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's the thing tho, if monster can create stuff that differences this much from it's irl counterparts, why should we treat the lightning as real?

Controlling something does NOT mean that it's unlike the real thing. A character being able to bend light does not mean said light is not SoL, and same applies to lightning.

Still, saying Vulkin's lightning is real is akin to saying Knight Knight actually created Moon-sized and Sun-sized celestial bodies,

That's such a ******* strawman that I am legit baffled from this. No one ever said that Knight Knight can create a literal celestial body, characters who can create small-sized versions of those definitely do exist, so why are you assuming that it creating a sun/moon means it's creating a 1:1 copy of it in its full size?

The fact that the cloud in Undertale has a stylized appearance and behaves in a way that is inconsistent with real-world lightning suggests that it is intentionally designed to be magical or fantastical rather than realistic.

That's exactly the point. It's stylized, meaning it works like such despite being drawn differently.

Plus, shouldn't we like also take the feats like how they are actually presented, despite the game limitations? I remember that being what most people said to something about how WWE can't show actual competent swordsmanship

That's not my concern and WWE follows a very different logic. Were we're talking about electric attacks used from a real cloud.

I'm not saying they all don't hit the ground, I'm saying SOME of the bolts don't even hit the ground, which contradicts the cloud-to-ground lightning standard.

Which is from how the battle box looks like (which also does not show the full extent of all the attack at once). Plus all of them tend towards the bottom, so this is already nonsense.

All I see are excuses to prevent this argument from becoming a thing lol.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Plus, shouldn't we like also take the feats like how they are actually presented, despite the game limitations? I remember that being what most people said to something about how WWE can't show actual competent swordsmanship

WWE is effectively sports-theater, with choreographed fights specifically to be as safe as possible for the performers, while maintaining a certain degree of realism, yet not compromising the spectacle. False equivalency.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

You respond fast, too fast, don't you think that's unfair?

Controlling something does NOT mean that it's unlike the real thing. A character being able to bend light does not mean said light is not SoL, and same applies to lightning.

OPM's lasers aren't treated as actual lasers despite the fact they're stated to be so, because they bend, soooooooooo

That's such a ******* strawman that I am legit baffled from this. No one ever said that Knight Knight can create a literal celestial body, characters who can create small-sized versions of those definitely do exist, so why are you assuming that it creating a sun/moon means it's creating a 1:1 copy of it in its full size?

You're literally saying that Vulkin's lightning is 1:1 with actual lightning despite it, you know, breaking all the rules?

That's exactly the point. It's stylized, meaning it works like such despite being drawn differently.

I don't quite understand this point : P
Like, if it's stylized and doesn't act like lightning, why should treat it as actual lightning?

Which is from how the battle box looks like (which also does not show the full extent of all the attack at once). Plus all of them tend towards the bottom, so this is already nonsense.

We only have the battle box to go by, so that's what we're gonna have to work with,
Also no, some are literally going left and some are even going up

WWE is effectively sports-theater, with choreographed fights specifically to be as safe as possible for the performers, while maintaining a certain degree of realism, yet not compromising the spectacle. False equivalency.

Undertale is a game and Vulkin's attack is meant to be dodged, and as a result, Vulkin's cloud attack ended being nothing like actual lightning,
The scene I was referring to in WWE was when this lad was trying to attack this other lad with a sword, but he was using it badly to not hurt the other guy,
In the Versus Thread, the WWE guy was just treated as bad with the sword, despite the fact that was just due to WWE limitations, this shouldn't be much different

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

My english is failing, Send boat

 

[StrymULTRA]

OPM's lasers aren't treated as actual lasers despite the fact they're stated to be so, because they bend, soooooooooo

That's more because they were not proved to be lasers in the 1st place iirc. But this ain't the topic. Also because on the lightning page is literally said that a criteria is the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general.

You're literally saying that Vulkin's lightning is 1:1 with actual lightning despite it, you know, breaking all the rules?

Breaking all the rules basing on your standards, not the Wiki's.

I don't quite understand this point : P
Like, if it's stylized and doesn't act like lightning, why should treat it as actual lightning?

Already told above.

We only have the battle box to go by, so that's what we're gonna have to work with,

Sans and Papyrus fights legit say a big no to this.

Also no, some are going left and some are even going up

This is not breaking the rule for being a lighthing bud. Also, you know that bullets most of the time just disappear if they're no longer useful, right?

Undertale is a game and Vulkin's attack is meant to be dodged, and as a result, Vulkin's cloud attack ended being nothing like actual lightning,

"It can be dodged thus it's not real" are you serious?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Sans and Papyrus fights legit say a big no to this.

I mean for Vulkin's cloud, also me no understand what this prove. pls elaborate

This is not breaking the rule for being a lighthing bud. Also, you know that bullets most of the time just disappear if they're no longer useful, right?

But Google says Lightning can only go up to down or the opposite, and the left-upper lighting bolds last for a while

"It can be dodged thus it's not real" are you serious?

Nah, I was just saying we should take the feat how it is presented,

Also what we do against Mettaton's electricity and normal bombs blowing up being faster than this lightning? Ain't that like a pretty big contradiction?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean for Vulkin's cloud, also me no understand what this prove. pls elaborate

The battle box is not the limit to what is happening in the place. It can hide what is happening due to it limiting the POV.

But Google says Lightning can only go up to down or the opposite, and the left-upper lighting bolds last for a while

That's because Vulkin can manipulate said lightning, something yourself have admitted.

Also what we do against Mettaton's electricity and normal bombs blowing up being faster than this lightning? Ain't that like a pretty big contradiction?

Mettaton's electricity does not come from a cloud but from his core, so it does not contradict anything.

Edit: I mean, yours is also argument from incredulity as well.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

The battle box is not the limit to what is happening in the place. It can hide what is happening due to it limiting the POV.

Don't ya gotta prove that's happenin in the Vulkin fight, tho? I also don't see how that somehow this means the cloud was actually only heading toward the ground?

That's because Vulkin can manipulate said lightning, something yourself have admitted.

Yeah, but like a wise gal once said "a person might be able to manipulate a balloon to create a static charge, but that does not mean that the resulting electric shock behaves the same as lightning."

Mettaton's electricity does not come from a cloud but from his core, so it does not contradict anything.

I was more saying that since we know Mettaton's electricity is Supersonic, wouldn't it contradict a Hotland fodder being this fast?

Also just realised, if we take the lightning as real, this like upgrades everyone to 8-C, and we didn't even need the Knight Knight sun for it, pretty neat, huh

 

[StrymULTRA]

Don't ya gotta prove that's happenin in the Vulkin fight, tho? I also don't see how that somehow this means the cloud was actually only heading toward the ground?

It means that some of the lightnings can go on the ground without us seeing it.

Yeah, but like a wise gal once said "a person might be able to manipulate a balloon to create a static charge, but that does not mean that the resulting electric shock behaves the same as lightning."

Are you ******* serious? You're comparing characters who can manipulate elements in a supernatural way to charging a baloon? Yeah no,I shouldn't even explain what is wrong with that.

I was more saying that since we know Mettaton's electricity is Supersonic, wouldn't it contradict a Hotland fodder being this fast?

Tbh it would just upscale from Vulkin, not an anti feat for Mettaton. In Pokémon we have literal FTL Lightning attacks too.

Also just realised, if we take the lightning as real, this like upgrades everyone to 8-C, and we didn't even need the Knight Knight sun for it, pretty neat, huh

Tbh not really as that would be only calc stacking to apply Frisk's speed to every high tier monster, as it's still a fan calc result and not an in-verse said speed.

Besides, Tsunderplane through KE would be 7-C, and that's an obvious outlier.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Yeah, I changed my mind, but about this;

Tbh not really as that would be only calc stacking to apply Frisk's speed to every high tier monster, as it's still a fan calc result and not an in-verse said speed.

Besides, Tsunderplane through KE would be 7-C, and that's an obvious outlier.

Lightning carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules, as seen in the "Lightning Feats" Page, which is 0.38025 tons of TNT, and since Magic counts as a Universal power System (For Monsters at least), this would upgrade everyone with an ATK stat above 25 + Papyrus to 8-C

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Undertale is a game and Vulkin's attack is meant to be dodged, and as a result, Vulkin's cloud attack ended being nothing like actual lightning,
The scene I was referring to in WWE was when this lad was trying to attack this other lad with a sword, but he was using it badly to not hurt the other guy,
In the Versus Thread, the WWE guy was just treated as bad with the sword, despite the fact that was just due to WWE limitations, this shouldn't be much different

That's... Still a false equivalency, my guy.