- 2,730
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Okay. This has gone on for too long. Undertales low tiers are generally composed of so many baseless headcannon assumptions. Before going to town level. Ill start with the easiest feat to debunk.
Lesser dog extending his neck is multi city block level
This is entirely based on the statement of "lesser dog has reached the realm of the clouds". Not only is this blatantly flowery and joking language and a hyperbole but we even see lesser dogs head blatantly still visible to the naked eye. On top of that clouds are something never shown to exist within a mountain aside from fake ones and even if they were able to form (despite the fact that they would have to form in a freezing cold enclosed environment where evaporation doesnt take place) there is nothing suggesting they are standard cloud heights.
Lesser dogs head being visible is not a fault in the game. When you pet his head again, only then do you see his head disappear completely and then see the mention that he is extremely far away. This means that the sprite where his head was visible would have needed to be manually programmed with that statement, and then programmed afterwards to switch to offscreen with a new statement. That is not something that can happen by mistake. His head was deliberately made visible when he supposedly reached cloud height.
"But lesser dog showed no signs of stopping. which proves he is moving in that scene but it just wasnt programmed" That statement is made even before lesser dog "enters the realm of clouds" and his head is even more visible and clearly not moving.
Conclusion: Lesser dogs statement is a hyperbole to exaggerate how high lesser dog was. Why do I even need to explain this?
Now that is out of the way
Vulkins lightning is cloud to ground lightning
This is likely spawned from the idea that lightning is fake unless it is cloud to ground, therefore literally anything that comes from some kind of cloud and shoots downwards must be real lightning.
Vulkings cloud is not even a real cloud for starters. It is a tesla sized white cloud themed object (much like how vulkin is a volcano themed monster and not a literal volcano) with a smile on its face. And neither is vulkin an actual real volcano. It shoots lightning bolts from its sides and fires them as their own individual projectiles. this is not how lightning functions at all. Actual cloud to ground lightning does not fly out as individual cartoonish bolts like bullets, they stream out of the cloud.
On top of many of the "lightning bolts" shoot upwards and sideways and dont even hit the ground. Yet some of them stemming from a literal fake cloud and hitting the ground.
So lets go over the many things that contradict this being actual lightning as opposed to fake lightning.
-The cloud itself is not a real cloud nor functions as a lightning cloud -The lightning itself is as cartoonish as you can make it and does not function like normal lightning -Some of the lightning doesnt hit the ground and flies upwards as if you were shooting a projectile into the air -Monsters attacks are explicit magic. Lightning is not a magical object by any means.
Saying vulkins lightning is real requires way to much assumptions and burden of proof. Vulkins lightning is merely an electrical projectile which is shaped and themed like lightning which is also consistent everything else in the surroundings and the other cartoonish monsters and projectiles within undertale. The latter is further justified through ockhams razor as it requires far less speculation and more reasonable logic.
I would also like to bring up the argument that mettaton was able to hit frisk with electricity which was a direct technological attack and not lightning. The counter argument is that frisk was minimally determined and was not in a full fight scenario.
However it should be noted, he was able to tank hits from mettaton who had thirty attack. Frisks determination scales to the opponents attack and not durability (as shown by the fight with jerry where frisk could only chip away at jerrys hp due to his durability being so high). Which is why he doesnt ever reach mettatons defence and tank his attacks.
Undyne can one shot papyrus and is at least a full tier above him
This argument is so wrong. Undynes attack only is unquantifiably above papyrus and her durability is listed the exact same. She has never demonstrated the ap gap to one shot anybody on papyruses level or below and only has a good amount of defence above. Undyne herself even listed papyrus as being a tough opponent with no reason to lie when she goes on to explain why she couldnt let him fight.
The only time a monster has demonstrated to be able to absolutely overpower another is when asgore completely stomped undyne on numerous occasions when she was just a normal monster. when she approached her current level she was able to somewhat damage asgore and knock him over and continued to train. Undyne at the point where she was getting completely stomped has no actual feats and hasnt shown or been mentioned as being strong compared to other monsters.
This should give asgore the ap gap to one shot most average untrained monsters that are encountered (likely those with around 5 to 10 attack/defence) as undyne should at least scale above them mid training. But that is it.
A little inconsistency with the far apart scaling for undertale monsters Jerry who can fight alongside the likes of ice cap. The latter having 4 defence and taking a few hits to kill. The former having 30 defence and taking many hits to kill. If jerry were hundreds of times more durable than ice cap who frisk can do normal damage to then frisk would not be able to even remotely hurt jerry and the fight would never end without sparing him.
Im pretty sure there are many inconsistencies like this arise more than this many times in the game. It just shows how horribly scaled these characters really are. Which leads on to this.
Monsters stats are not properly scaled
Undyne has 20 defence yet scales above others with the same (even sometimes higher) defence in durability Shyren has 0 defence and small town level durability Woshua can fight you alongside arron yet his durability should only make him building level Lesser dog has 2 defence and is hundreds of times more durable than a froggit
And so much more. It seems like the wiki focuses on scaling the attack whilst only sometimes factoring in defence, resulting in an unquantifiable mess. The fact of the matter is, these monsters scaling with this much variety (outside of asgore one shotting standard monsters) is wildly insoncistent and has nothing supporting it in the first place outside a fake lightning feat and a hyperbole.
Conclusion
Undertale does not have any raw feats outside (small)building level The current scaling for them is atrocious The only one-shot ap gap demonstrated is asgore to a regular monster Undertale characters should have their speed downgraded to unknown until further revision (although sans should still be at least subsonic unless he has shown higher)
The official ratings depend on whether undertale low tiers become small building level or building level.
Small building level: I cant make to many assumptions for this since it would depend on how far into the tier they are. But considering that the weaker monsters would be this level, asgore might reach into the building levels unless they are near baseline.
Building level:
Assumed baseline, asgore should at least be 8 to 10 times this since even the weakest monster would scale. Making him large building level. Undyne was able to knock him down and got stronger since then. Whilst undyne shouldnt be on his level, she should at least scale somewhat close to asgore, and somewhat above normal monsters like papyrus at least ap wise.
Those with over 40 attack and defence as a result should fit comfortably in the building level+ ranges unless the lower tiers scale very high above baseline.
It is best to figure out what tier the lowest tiers are before making any changes.
Lesser dog extending his neck is multi city block level
This is entirely based on the statement of "lesser dog has reached the realm of the clouds". Not only is this blatantly flowery and joking language and a hyperbole but we even see lesser dogs head blatantly still visible to the naked eye. On top of that clouds are something never shown to exist within a mountain aside from fake ones and even if they were able to form (despite the fact that they would have to form in a freezing cold enclosed environment where evaporation doesnt take place) there is nothing suggesting they are standard cloud heights.
Lesser dogs head being visible is not a fault in the game. When you pet his head again, only then do you see his head disappear completely and then see the mention that he is extremely far away. This means that the sprite where his head was visible would have needed to be manually programmed with that statement, and then programmed afterwards to switch to offscreen with a new statement. That is not something that can happen by mistake. His head was deliberately made visible when he supposedly reached cloud height.
"But lesser dog showed no signs of stopping. which proves he is moving in that scene but it just wasnt programmed" That statement is made even before lesser dog "enters the realm of clouds" and his head is even more visible and clearly not moving.
Conclusion: Lesser dogs statement is a hyperbole to exaggerate how high lesser dog was. Why do I even need to explain this?
Now that is out of the way
Vulkins lightning is cloud to ground lightning
This is likely spawned from the idea that lightning is fake unless it is cloud to ground, therefore literally anything that comes from some kind of cloud and shoots downwards must be real lightning.
Vulkings cloud is not even a real cloud for starters. It is a tesla sized white cloud themed object (much like how vulkin is a volcano themed monster and not a literal volcano) with a smile on its face. And neither is vulkin an actual real volcano. It shoots lightning bolts from its sides and fires them as their own individual projectiles. this is not how lightning functions at all. Actual cloud to ground lightning does not fly out as individual cartoonish bolts like bullets, they stream out of the cloud.
On top of many of the "lightning bolts" shoot upwards and sideways and dont even hit the ground. Yet some of them stemming from a literal fake cloud and hitting the ground.
So lets go over the many things that contradict this being actual lightning as opposed to fake lightning.
-The cloud itself is not a real cloud nor functions as a lightning cloud -The lightning itself is as cartoonish as you can make it and does not function like normal lightning -Some of the lightning doesnt hit the ground and flies upwards as if you were shooting a projectile into the air -Monsters attacks are explicit magic. Lightning is not a magical object by any means.
Saying vulkins lightning is real requires way to much assumptions and burden of proof. Vulkins lightning is merely an electrical projectile which is shaped and themed like lightning which is also consistent everything else in the surroundings and the other cartoonish monsters and projectiles within undertale. The latter is further justified through ockhams razor as it requires far less speculation and more reasonable logic.
I would also like to bring up the argument that mettaton was able to hit frisk with electricity which was a direct technological attack and not lightning. The counter argument is that frisk was minimally determined and was not in a full fight scenario.
However it should be noted, he was able to tank hits from mettaton who had thirty attack. Frisks determination scales to the opponents attack and not durability (as shown by the fight with jerry where frisk could only chip away at jerrys hp due to his durability being so high). Which is why he doesnt ever reach mettatons defence and tank his attacks.
Undyne can one shot papyrus and is at least a full tier above him
This argument is so wrong. Undynes attack only is unquantifiably above papyrus and her durability is listed the exact same. She has never demonstrated the ap gap to one shot anybody on papyruses level or below and only has a good amount of defence above. Undyne herself even listed papyrus as being a tough opponent with no reason to lie when she goes on to explain why she couldnt let him fight.
The only time a monster has demonstrated to be able to absolutely overpower another is when asgore completely stomped undyne on numerous occasions when she was just a normal monster. when she approached her current level she was able to somewhat damage asgore and knock him over and continued to train. Undyne at the point where she was getting completely stomped has no actual feats and hasnt shown or been mentioned as being strong compared to other monsters.
This should give asgore the ap gap to one shot most average untrained monsters that are encountered (likely those with around 5 to 10 attack/defence) as undyne should at least scale above them mid training. But that is it.
A little inconsistency with the far apart scaling for undertale monsters Jerry who can fight alongside the likes of ice cap. The latter having 4 defence and taking a few hits to kill. The former having 30 defence and taking many hits to kill. If jerry were hundreds of times more durable than ice cap who frisk can do normal damage to then frisk would not be able to even remotely hurt jerry and the fight would never end without sparing him.
Im pretty sure there are many inconsistencies like this arise more than this many times in the game. It just shows how horribly scaled these characters really are. Which leads on to this.
Monsters stats are not properly scaled
Undyne has 20 defence yet scales above others with the same (even sometimes higher) defence in durability Shyren has 0 defence and small town level durability Woshua can fight you alongside arron yet his durability should only make him building level Lesser dog has 2 defence and is hundreds of times more durable than a froggit
And so much more. It seems like the wiki focuses on scaling the attack whilst only sometimes factoring in defence, resulting in an unquantifiable mess. The fact of the matter is, these monsters scaling with this much variety (outside of asgore one shotting standard monsters) is wildly insoncistent and has nothing supporting it in the first place outside a fake lightning feat and a hyperbole.
Conclusion
Undertale does not have any raw feats outside (small)building level The current scaling for them is atrocious The only one-shot ap gap demonstrated is asgore to a regular monster Undertale characters should have their speed downgraded to unknown until further revision (although sans should still be at least subsonic unless he has shown higher)
The official ratings depend on whether undertale low tiers become small building level or building level.
Small building level: I cant make to many assumptions for this since it would depend on how far into the tier they are. But considering that the weaker monsters would be this level, asgore might reach into the building levels unless they are near baseline.
Building level:
Assumed baseline, asgore should at least be 8 to 10 times this since even the weakest monster would scale. Making him large building level. Undyne was able to knock him down and got stronger since then. Whilst undyne shouldnt be on his level, she should at least scale somewhat close to asgore, and somewhat above normal monsters like papyrus at least ap wise.
Those with over 40 attack and defence as a result should fit comfortably in the building level+ ranges unless the lower tiers scale very high above baseline.
It is best to figure out what tier the lowest tiers are before making any changes.
