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Turnabout Devil May Cry

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Deadguy said:
Demons have type 4 acausality so it's pretty much useless if he did plus I'm pretty sure that their is many characters in the wiki that have immeasurable speed by similar means

My point is trying to travel to the past or future by sheer speed isn't the only proof for immeasurable speed
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That's not how type 4 aucausality works.

And seeing as how DMC stories have linear cause and effects all the time, that's still a weird claim to make consistently.

Hell in that video posted, a female demon literally says she needs time to regain her power. Pretty non-acausal.
 
EFÍTÉ said:
Why needing to attack someone in the past would be necessary?
Click to expand...
Because if he can't attack someone, or travel to the past or future through sheer speed, then it's not immeasurable by the wiki's definition.

The text can very easily be interpreted to mean than Pluto moves so fast that he moves faster than time can flow.

It doesn't say he can attack his assailants any time or any when. If that was the case he would be unfettered from any conflict by would-be hunter's schemes.

Infinite speed is plenty impressive as is.
 
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Sevil Natas said:
bro that is literally immeaurable speed lol
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No, that's just infinite.

In this case you have to prove they mean timeflow as in backwards and forwards and not just faster than time can progress forward like any other 'stream'.

If he can only move faster than any time can pass that's just infinite speed.
 
NeoTengus said:
No, it doesn't.
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First things first nothing you have posted even remotely counts as debunk to the statement itself.
NeoTengus said:
Burden of proof gets higher and higher commensurate with the level of the claim.

And unfortunately immeasurable is a far higher claim than even infinite, which is quite easy to demonstrate in fictional story telling. Not so much with immeasurable, that's far trickier to demonstrate in linear storytelling
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Nice trivia.
Good thing the statement covers its own back.
NeoTengus said:
The text can be interpreted easily to mean that Pluto moves so fast that he ignores the passage of time. I.e. he moves so fast that zero time passes. I.e. infinite speed.
Click to expand...
More like to suit your own interpretations.
Text says.
As a demon lord with more power than his hunters, his speed is faster than theirs, allowing him to travel and bypass the dimensional axis of the time stream, giving the illusion of teleportation to the naked eye.
Click to expand...
Which blatantly points to non-linear speed.

I won't deny infinite could be an interpretation, but wording of the statement is not only more in favour immeasurable, it lacks any hint of flavour/hyperbole text. Its as clinical as it gets.
NeoTengus said:
The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that the text means without a shadow of doubt that Pluto can fight at what the Wiki's standard of immeasurable speed is; which is explicitly Anytime, "Anywhen".
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Already answered enough, I don't need to repeat myself.
NeoTengus said:
Your childish jump to ad-hominem is disappointing and to me demonstrates a lack of security in your claim.

Don't waste time with your weak minded bait if you can actually prove the claim. Do it, or dont.
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Mister/Miss whoever you are. I'd suggest you don't resort to false accusations and petty insults.
Nowhere did I use Ad-hominem, nothing in the text remotely hints at that. Nor do I intend such things.
I have explicitly targeted your arguements, with use of analogy on why your demands are unnecessary.
Come with such aggression in this thread, rest assured I won't tolerate it any longer.

This bit sounds nothing but a weak attempt to dismiss my arguements via extraneous means to avoid addressing them.
 
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NeoTengus said:
No, that's just infinite.

In this case you have to prove they mean timeflow as in backwards and forwards and not just faster than time can progress forward like any other 'stream'.

If he can only move faster than any time can pass that's just infinite speed.
Click to expand...
Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below.)

his movements bypass the flow of time, that is literally bypassing linear time, which is immeaurable
 
I've seen on past threads the Time Travel argument being considered as NLF, alongside many similar feats being accepted as Immeasurable, as there are other ways to get this speed. Thing is, the statement may not be clear on how much they can travel in time or to what direction via their sheer speed, but it couldn't be clearer that they go beyond the time flow, which is, like stated by the others, the definition of the tier regardless of how much time or the direction
 
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Sevil Natas said:
Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below.)

his movements bypass the flow of time, that is literally bypassing linear time, which is immeaurable
Click to expand...
You didn't finish reading the speed page then.

Namely the part where it points out the further explained part:


"The difference between infinite and immeasurable is that the former can go everywhere instantly, whereas the latter can go everywhere and everywhen faster than instantly.

For more information, Infinite speed characters are so fast, they move faster than time can flow at any period. They perceive every finite speed character as completely frozen and it takes 0 time to react to any finite speed object or travel finite speed distance. They can also perform and infinite number of actions or travel infinite distance within a finite amount of time. An infinite speed character's perception of time only flows when they allow it to flow.

Immeasurable speed characters are far beyond even those Infinite speed characters listed above. They perceive infinite speed characters as completely frozen, and they can travel forward and backward in time at will. They have the speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right. This also means their reaction time is faster than instantaneous. They can dodge an attack that already has been struck, and they can strike someone even before they launched an attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed."

The bolded is the most directly applicable, one-to-one statement with the one presented for Pluto.

It's clear watching the story unfold in POC that the immeasurable claim in untenable.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
First things first nothing you have posted even remotely counts as debunk to the statement itself.

Nice trivia.
Good thing the statement covers its own back.

More like to suit your own interpretations.
Text says.

Which blatantly points to non-linear speed.

I won't deny infinite could be an interpretation, but wording of the statement is not only more in favour immeasurable, it lacks any hint of flavour/hyperbole text. Its as clinical as it gets.

Already answered enough, I don't need to repeat myself.

Mister/Miss whoever you are. I'd suggest you don't resort to false accusations and petty insults.
Nowhere did I use Ad-hominem, nothing in the text remotely hints at that. Nor do I intend such things.
I have explicitly targeted your arguements, with use of analogy on why your demands are unnecessary.
Come with such aggression in this thread, rest assured your I won't tolerate it any longer.

This bit sounds nothing but a weak attempt to dismiss my arguements.
Click to expand...
You came at me with me statement of me presenting "whack logic". That's immature and I dont apologize for responding by calling it out. And then you came up with bad faith false equivalences to characterize the logic of my argument.

And now all you are giving me is circular statements.

I copied and pasted from the wiki's own page and bolded for convenience how the infinite speed ranking is the most congruent with the statement given.

The most plausible interpretation gets the bone. That's how things work.

It would be one thing if Pluto was the top being in DMC but giving him immeasurable breaks the scaling chain seeing as someone greater like DMC5 Vergil operates completely linearly.

Anyone that watches POC's story play out can safely put the immeasurable ranking safely out of mind. It's pretty blatantly infinite.
 
Lightning_XXI said:
I may be wrong, but that feat list u quoted seems more like "possible uses" or examples of the tier instead of actual requirements, otherwise 95% of the Immeasurables from the wiki should be under revision at the very least

Also guys, let's stay calm, I know the topic is big, but no reason to lose our cool
Click to expand...
I'm all for a civil discussion. I was simply asking questions civilly to begin with before I took exception to something. But I digress and won't respond to that piece of the discussion any further.

As for the requirements, it wouldn't surprise if tons of profiles needed to be fixed. The page itself says that's a blatant characteristic of an immeasurable though.

And to be honest immeasurable is something that is difficult to portray in straight forward story telling so it should be something that only narrowly applies anyway to the vast majority of fiction.
 
Thehunter077 said:
Wait a minute... This Pluto(PoC version) are strong or weaker version compare to manga(DMC 3)?
Click to expand...
Could have become weaker due to forcefully broken seal. There's some new rules added in lore about Sparda's seal which may change something.
But I am not proficient enough to explain it.
Lightning will have to do it when he wakes up.

also respond on discord.. >:v
 
Everything looks good, so i'm agree with the proposals.

But there is somethings that could be added to Nightmare and Nelo Angelo pages.

As this scan states, Nelo Angelo with the exception of Mundus is the only demon that was capable to kill Dante in DMC1 events, which shows how much deadly he was as an opponent for him, and also this one here show also be added in his AP section, since they mention that Nelo Angelo's helmet was affecting his vision and reaction speed.
 
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NeoTengus said:
I'm all for a civil discussion. I was simply asking questions civilly to begin with before I took exception to something. But I digress and won't respond to that piece of the discussion any further.

As for the requirements, it wouldn't surprise if tons of profiles needed to be fixed. The page itself says that's a blatant characteristic of an immeasurable though.

And to be honest immeasurable is something that is difficult to portray in straight forward story telling so it should be something that only narrowly applies anyway to the vast majority of fiction.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, Immeasurable speed, alongside Infinite speed and other types of abilities and stats is rather hard to showcase, if we take a look at the majority of the Immeasurable speed "users", most of them comes from a statement + the ability being consistent or at least plausible for who scales, and it's not a big surprise. I'm 100% neutral on if the profiles need revision of some kind, but if that list isn't about requirements but rather only examples, I keep the claim, as the statement is pretty much the definition despite not going into details on how much time or its travel direction, I don't really care if DMC is "weak immeasurable" or "baseline" for lacking any crazy and asburd time bending feats, that shall be the case if the guilty verdict is given

GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Could have become weaker due to forcefully broken seal. There's some new rules added in lore about Sparda's seal which may change something.
But I am not proficient enough to explain it.
Lightning will have to do it when he wakes up.

also respond on discord.. >:v
Click to expand...

As we talked on the server, force breaking the seal causes the nerf, however Pluto didn't went through force, he actually had a ritual to unmade the seal just like Abigail and Argosax did, therefore, the nerf can't be applied, as ritual to remove the seal with steps and items =/= force breaking it unless shown otherwise

Pluto and Medea (The Demon Queen) aren't nerfed despite being weaker then the other 2-Cs via scaling

Mister6ame6 said:
Everything looks good, so i'm agree with the proposals.

But there is somethings that could be added to Nightmare and Nelo Angelo pages.

As this scan states, Nelo Angelo with the exception of Mundus is the only demon that was capable to kill Dante in DMC1 events, which shows how much deadly he was as an opponent for him, and also this one here show also be added in his AP section, since they mention that Nelo Angelo's helmet was affecting his vision and reaction speed.
Click to expand...

It could be added as it does help, but let's avoid bibles on their AP section, the scaling is a headache as it is
 
NeoTengus said:
But nothing about that is the same as being able time travel through sheer speed.
Click to expand...
NeoTengus said:
As for the requirements, it wouldn't surprise if tons of profiles needed to be fixed. The page itself says that's a blatant characteristic of an immeasurable though.
Click to expand...
NeoTengus said:
And to be honest immeasurable is something that is difficult to portray in straight forward story telling so it should be something that only narrowly applies anyway to the vast majority of fiction.
Click to expand...
Time Travel is not a requirement for Immeasurable. It never has been and shouldn't be, because moving outside of time is enough to qualify. The page itself literally states:

"Being able to casually roam around freely across linear time qualifies for immeasurable speed. However, traveling to different time periods through movement is a common feat in fiction that often leads to inconsistencies and has been done via FTL travel or running laps around the earth faster than it rotates. This can lead to characters being assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated case by case."

Time Travel via Speed is a finicky thing that is evaluated as it is on a case by case basis. Multiple characters have Immeasurable without using speed for time travel because of this.

If we did use Time Travel via Speed as the main requirement, then characters who are unbound by time (and should thus logically be Immeasurable) lose the speed rating, and a character who goes at Relativistic speeds around the earth to Time Travel gains it, somehow.

It's all case by case. I feel like changing the goalpost here would just overcomplicate things and make them far worse.
 
KnightOfSunlight said:
Time Travel is not a requirement for Immeasurable. It never has been and shouldn't be, because moving outside of time is enough to qualify. The page itself literally states:

"Being able to casually roam around freely across linear time qualifies for immeasurable speed. However, traveling to different time periods through movement is a common feat in fiction that often leads to inconsistencies and has been done via FTL travel or running laps around the earth faster than it rotates. This can lead to characters being assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated case by case."

Time Travel via Speed is a finicky thing that is evaluated as it is on a case by case basis. Multiple characters have Immeasurable without using speed for time travel because of this.

If we did use Time Travel via Speed as the main requirement, then characters who are unbound by time (and should thus logically be Immeasurable) lose the speed rating, and a character who goes at Relativistic speeds around the earth to Time Travel gains it, somehow.

It's all case by case. I feel like changing the goalpost here would just overcomplicate things and make them far worse.
Click to expand...
eh, no. moving outside of time alone is not enough for Immeasurable
 
Yea I'm pretty sure that the whole you need to travel forward or backward in time is just mentioned to let people dont get confused about immeasurable speed and infinite speed(I mean literally this whole thing was only mentioned in the what's difference between infinite and immeasurable speed section) so yea it's not a necessary requirement because if it is then alot of verses in this wiki won't have get accepted
 
This thread is a strange paradox to be honest.

People struggle to prove via context of media in most verses regarding time travel to be immeasurable speed. Only to rejected almost all the time. Because not good enough proof or no statements.

While we here have a statement which could be textbook definition of immeasurable as a lore statement about Pluto.
To which people are resisting because they need time travel as a requirement.

And all I can say is bruh, people will never be satisfied. Always escalating expectations in the most hilarious ways.
 
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