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Prosecution's ready, Your Honor

As opening statement, I shall explain the current situation with DMC

Currently, thanks to Sevil's past thread, we proved how Peak of Combat is, at least for now, canon to the DMC main timeline, and with the game, new hax feats appeared. However what was intentionally hidden from that thread are the new feats regarding stats (AP and speed, for example), that are surprisingly interesting and shall put DMC at a new level of OPness. We avoided to talk about this at that time to avoid making a huge thread with too many points to debate, they are going to be presented now, after a break from DMC CRTs for over a month

With that in mind, the prosecuton seeks to prove, beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt, that said new feats are legit and applicable to their profiles

asv53iR.gif


The 1st Feat

The scan:

冥界 据说魔王创造了一种强大的武器他甚至担心它会摧毁 他自己的王国,封印了他的力量来阻止它。凭借他巨 大的力量,他可以毫不费力地举起整个冥界的结构或 摧毁它。 只有与她的创造者相媲美的存在才能超越他的强度。 一件武器将成为任何实体的噩梦,无论是活着的还是 死去的。

V1: The Underworld

The demon king is said to have created a powerful weapon that he even feared would destroy his own kingdom, and sealed his power to stop it. With his immense great power, he could effortlessly lift the entire structure of the underworld or destroy it. Only a being comparable to her creator could surpass his strength. A weapon would be a nightmare for any entity, living or dead.

V2: Underworld

The Demon is said to have created a powerful weapon he even feared would destroy his own kingdom, sealing his power to stop it. With his great power, he could effortlessly lift the entire structure of the underworld or destroy it. Only an existence comparable to her creator can surpass his intensity. A weapon will become a nightmare for any entity, whether alive or dead.

V3: In the underworld, the demon king is said to have created a powerful weapon he feared would destroy his own kingdom, sealing his power to stop it. With his great, great power, he could lift the entire structure of the underworld without difficulty or destroy it. Only an existence comparable to that of her creator can exceed its intensity. A weapon would be a nightmare for any entity, alive or dead.

In any translation, the two feats are solid: Nightmare can destroy the entire structure of the Demon World, aswell as lift it, these are Low 2-C in AP and Immeasurable in LS

Currently, we already gave Nightmare a High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C rating for being able to "destroy the Demon World", the reason for the High 3-A part is because the statement only really covers the matter on said dimension, that is not the case anymore as the entire structure would be affected, giving the feat a small jump to just Low 2-C

Who it affects (AP)

In AP, not many people actually, only two besides Nightmare: DMC1 Dante and Nelo Angelo

For many years, this part of the cast was considered to be fodder close to the higher tiers of the verse, this, however, is already outadated not only by re-considering older Lore like Nightmare's feat, but also new canon material coming from Before The Nightmare. We already list them as High 3-A/Low 2-C, and that comes from this same Dante actually defeating Nightmare and, on older guides, describing both his sealed and unreleased power. Among the novels and guides we also get numerous statements about Mundus actually fearing Nelo Angelo and DMC1 Dante in a similar way he feared Nightmare


Nelo Angelo, for also not being completely under the control of Mundus, was directly stated by the narrator to be a danger to him

He also felt threatened by Dante and planned the DMC1 events to avoid him frustating his world-ending schemes, I saw counters like Mundus just overestimating Dante by being afraid of his Sparda Inheritance, that, however, can't be proved, as the Demon King literally had Nelo Angelo by his side with his own part of the amulet, the Devil Sword Sparda couldn't be formed, and even then, fearing Dante's inheritance by default means being afraid of his power. Now extra attention here, as this Statue/Sealed Mundus was already capable of sustaining the Demon World (His defeat triggered its destruction as already listed on the profiles and blogs, but statue Mundus was already enough to keep it in one piece, even after being re-sealed, Mundus is still enough), which is a High 3-A feat. When he faced Dante in his throne room, he even used Trish as a distraction in order to hit Dante of guard (Happens right at the beggining). Some use this scene to say DMC1 Dante is fodder to Mundus, but that severely ignores a bit of context, since it completely ignores Mundus' whole plan in having Trish there, he only didn't expected her to do that sacrifice for Dante, which triggered his rage. I'm not saying he had to use Trish, but used as a insurance policy, now what makes sense with this ? Yes, Mundus fearing Dante's presence as stated by the official guide. This all in the end comes full circle, Mundus fears three characters (Dante, Nelo Angelo and Nightmare), with the quotes being very clear cut (All three in some way were stated to be feared by Mundus at that time), and the three have feats or scaling that puts them at Low 2-C

The main point forgotten by people when scaling DMC1 cast to Mundus is using Full Power Mundus instead of that current form, that alone fixes most, if not all the problems


Who it affects (LS)

The most interesting part is the Lifting the DW quote, quite unexpected and an upgrade considering the current God Tiers are Class Y, and I know that brings some questions, maybe an Outlier ?

In my opinion, no

The current Class Y was done by Argosax and is calced
here, thing is, it was done absolutely casual and when he was still sealed and ritual didn't began yet, thus it shouldn't limit their LS to said Tier, now, it's true that no God Tier has any other feat remotely close to this, as Fusing the Worlds isn't LS, so the possibility to be an outlier exists, and I'll leave up to discussion

While the God Tiers would scale, DMC1 Dante should also do as he is capable of fighting Nightmare even inside extremely small and closed spaces without being completely crushed by his LS, so he should be scaled equally, while the God Tier do scale higher thanks to
Mundus being capable of restraining Nightmare with a finger (Yes)

To finish, in order to make the scaling in DMC1 easier to understand, I propose an addition to Mundus' First key, his Dormant Form (or whatever name we use for him), it's important since the 3 High Tiers scaling is...harder to find and understand


Thus Mundus would look like this:

Attack Potency: Universe level+ while dormant (Stronger than Nightmare, Nelo Angelo and Dante albeit still being threatened by them, could already sustain the Demon World, which threatened to collapse after his defeat), Low Multiverse level at full power (After consuming the fruit of the Qliphoth, he killed the former king of the Underworld, who separated the original universe in two. Fused the Human World and the Demon World into one. Casually created an infinitely expanding universe moments before his fight against Dante. He is stated to be equal in power to Argosax as the Despair Embodied, and once fought a war against him that separated the rule of the Demon World in two sides)

Lifting Strength: Unknown while sealed, Immeasurable at full power (Stronger than Nightmare who can lift the entire structure of the Demon World, and casually restrained him)

Nightmare would be:

Attack Potency: Universe level+ (Was stated to be able to destroy the Demon World and its entire structure, fought against Dante in Devil May Cry 1, and was a demon worthy of being one of Mundus' Generals)

Lifting Strength: Immeasurable (Capable of lifting the entire structure of the Demon World)

DMC1 Dante would be:

Universe level+ (Fought and defeated Nightmare, who was stated to be capable of destroying to the Demon World. Was only rivaled by his brother, Vergil, who was Nelo Angelo at that time. His existence was already considered by Mundus as a threat, and by that time he was already capable of sustaining the Demon World with his power alone), Low Multiverse level with Devil Sword Sparda (Upon unlocking the Sword's power, Dante was capable reacting and redirecting attacks from Full Power Mundus, and can also survive attacks from him. The sword's Devil Trigger gave him a good portion of Sparda's powers, which allowed Dante to defeated a serious Mundus at full power)

Lifting Strength: Immeasurable (Matched Nightmare, who can lift the entire structure of the Demon World), higher with Sparda Devil Trigger

Nelo Angelo would be:

Universe level+ (Stated as a danger to Mundus at that time. Matched Dante in Devil May Cry 1 on three occasions, being victorious in one of them)
Lifting Strength: Immeasurable (Clashed with Dante in their battles)

Now then, interesting feat right ? But we didnt reached the most interesting part yet, because DMC is going to be...faster

The 2nd Feat

Ladies and Gentlemen from the jury, the most important part of this thread and easily one of the biggest upgrades in all of DMC

普洛托 作为一个比他的猎人更有力量的恶魔领主,他的速度比他们的更快,使他能够旅行并绕过时间流的维度轴,给肉眼带来传送的错觉。 任何决定与他对抗的无知者都会立即创造一个不可动摇的命运,其中受害者的灵魂将被他的长矛摧毁。
Pluto

As a demon lord with more power than his hunters, his speed is faster than theirs, allowing him to travel and bypass the dimensional axis of the time stream, giving the illusion of teleportation to the naked eye.


Any ignorant person who decides to confront him will immediately create an unshakable destiny in which the souls of his victims will be destroyed by his spear.
Other TLs:

Proto

As a demon lord who was more powerful than his hunters, he was faster than them, enabling him to travel and bypass the dimensional axis of the time flow, giving the naked eye the illusion of transmission. Any ignorant man who decides to confront him will immediately create an unshakable destiny in which the soul of the victim will be destroyed by his spear.


Yes, the proposal is Immeasurable speed

I always disliked the idea of DMC having this speed, but my arguments against it were mere NLF and headcanon, the prosecution here only seeks the truth despite how horrible it is. The statement is quite straightforward, as surpassing the time stream via sheer speed is one of the main types of Immeasurable speed feats

Note that this statement isn't talking about a specific technique, style of travel speed or something similar, it is directly talking about his top speed, and how he is above other demons, so I'm against any proposal that separates the rating (something like X normally, Immeasurable via Y)

Who it affects

Pluto is a 2-C God Tier, owner of one of the 2-C feats among the series, thus, only the 2-Cs scale to this, no Tier 9, 8, 7, 6, 4 or Low 2-C shall touch the tier for very obvious reasons, even the Low 2-Cs don't really compare to full power 2-Cs. While Pluto's exact scaling is somewhat tricky, I don't think any 2-C should be left without the feat, he either is around Mundus level as a Demon King or (literally) the weakest/the baseline 2-C since that's his feat and the only possible scaling to him is his title. Even if we do scale him to Mundus, the other weaker 2-Cs (Sealed Sparda, Argosax the Chaos and Bolverk) should still scale since they are not that much behind, and downscaling a bit from Immeasurable should still be at that level, if people think it shouldn't, "Unknown" or "Possibly/Likely" also works for the prosecution

Now, the most important question is: is this a outlier ?

VyyTIUu.gif


POC gave us some other speed feats, that are already discarted for how huge of a outlier they are (Infinite speed fodders), not only because it comes from fodders, but also even Low, Mid and High Tiers lack speed feats beyond MHS+, with one of them having a possible Relativistic feat if the calc gets accepted, which further shows us the consistency with the Non God Tiers from DMC, far from Infinite speed. Those problems, however, don't exist for the God Tiers

Not only they don't scale to anyone outside of their sphere, but they also are...quite unknown for their speed, they "lack" feats in a way, and currently, they are FTL+ for the lack of a better way to scale them, it comes from multipliers from weaker versions of Dante, they almost ended up as Unknown, Pluto's quote is the ONLY solid speed feat coming from the God Tiers and only for the God Tiers, therefore shouldn't be discarted as outlier

Final Results

DMC1 Dante, Vergil and Nightmare get upgraded to Low 2-C and with Immeasurable LS

Mundus gets a new rating for his dormant form that upscales from the other three

2-Cs get upgraded to Immeasurable LS and Speed

With this, the prosecution formally accuses Devil May Cry of being stronk and speedy, and welcomes the Defense to cross-examine its post



0FBdVww.gif
 
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Anyway, jokes aside, straight-up Low 2-C and Immeasurable LS looks to be fine, but Immeasurable speed, ohohohohohohohoho no, I'm not touching that. I'm leaving that to the experts.
 
I'm not sure about the immeasurable speed, if I know that moving through temporal dimensions as if they were space (ex: a ship that instead of moving through conventional water, moved through a sea made of time), I sincerely believe that we would need more feats of this caliber, i'm not saying i disagree but i lean to neutral


Edit: I also have something to say about LS and AP
 
I'm not sure about the immeasurable speed, if I know that moving through temporal dimensions as if they were space (ex: a ship that instead of moving through conventional water, moved through a sea made of time), I sincerely believe that we would need more feats of this caliber, i'm not saying i disagree but i lean to neutral
And the Low 2-C and Immeasurable LS stuff?
 
I'm not sure about the immeasurable speed, if I know that moving through temporal dimensions as if they were space (ex: a ship that instead of moving through conventional water, moved through a sea made of time), I sincerely believe that we would need more feats of this caliber, i'm not saying i disagree but i lean to neutral


Edit: I also have something to say about LS and AP
I'm not so sure either, I do agree the feat is Immensurable and is legit, but if it's almost standard that it needs more feats, I won't go against
 
Regarding the feat of LS and Ap, I do not think it is 100% Low 2-C and Immeasurable, I am not referring to it being false but to the fact that Immeasurable refers to lifting something that is greater than conventional infinity in a certain way, the declaration of NIghtmare could refer to the "physical Demon World" instead of the Totality of spacetime.

also to a certain extent it is the same statement that we currently have but with more context
 
OBJECTION!

The entire structure should count its Time-Space for the very definition, the whole point of the statement is, in fact, show how Nightmare can affect the dimension in its entirety, we had other examples where quoting the whole structure (or similar names like "foundations" or "base") were equal to Low 2-C as it is a broad term with no reason to assume it doesn't consider time among its parts, the proof of that would be on you, since the structure of a dimension needs time to "work", at least at face value, with no further details available

It is a "upgraded" version of the statements that we already had (a common thing in POC, actually), and even they by themselves were enough to give those characters a "Possibly Low 2-C", I see no reason to assume the whole structure mentioned in the scan don't consider its time-space as such
 
I was thinking for an hour and although I found arguments in favor of the structure being able to refer to three-dimensional matter, these are only supported by using equivalence of other different verses where there are characters that can lift/destroy the structure of the universe only are tier 3/Infinite LS.

so my vote is to agree with this for now

images
 
Don't wanna derail, but I'm tempted to take the messages here and make an Objection.lol animation with it. Lightning gets first dibs at viewing the sauce if I do.
 
Yeah i agree + those two scans can help with the changes

unknown.png


洞窟を抜けた先は、これまでとあまりにも遊う
暖かな光射す華厳な神殿だった。
時の流れから乖離されたようなその神殿に、
巨太な石像が鎮座する。
かつてベスパーダによって封印され、
2000年の時を超えて復活した、
療奈の現世での姿であった。

After passing through the cave, I found a temple that was too different from the previous ones.
It was a solemn temple with warm light.
In that temple, which seemed to have been separated from the flow of time
A huge stone statue sits there. It was once sealed up by Vesperda.
It was once sealed by Vesperda, but was revived after 2000 years.
It was Ryouna's appearance in this world (Coming from Precious tears Guide)


More or Less Mundus's palace being separated from the flow of time, which would be his doing.



And Void Mundus also is free from the flow of time (Coming from Novel vol 2)


And also this (coming from precious tears guide)


unknown.png


部屋を映し出した額は、
空間を越える家だった。
ダンテはそこに、せず飛び込んだ。

The frame reflected the room.
It was a house that transcended space.
Dante jumped into it without a second thought.

Scales to Mundus since he's the one doing all the shenanigans on Mallet Island

Well we do have some stuff to work with.
 
After passing through the cave, I found a temple that was too different from the previous ones.
It was a solemn temple with warm light.
In that temple, which seemed to have been separated from the flow of time
A huge stone statue sits there. It was once sealed up by Vesperda.
It was once sealed by Vesperda, but was revived after 2000 years.
Vesperda is Sparda?
 
Just so you know, assuming Immeasurable speed is legit,

NO ONE, AND I REPEAT, NO ONE BELOW THE GOD-TIERS SHOULD SCALE TO THIS FEAT.
 
I disagree with Immeasurable speed, but neutral on the rest
 
Based on the description, it sounds like Dimensional Travel. And "Traveling the dimensional axis as if they were teleporting" sounds Infinite at best but it also mentions illusion on the teleportation.
 
Based on the description, it sounds like Dimensional Travel. And "Traveling the dimensional axis as if they were teleporting" sounds Infinite at best but it also mentions illusion on the teleportation.
Umm no.

This is his speed during battle. He doesn't dimension travels.

The naked eye part is only there to show how it would appear to slower people. Ita not an actual illusion.

Just like how FTE and above speeds appears invisible to us.

Pluto

As a demon lord with more power than his hunters, his speed is faster than theirs, allowing him to travel and bypass the dimensional axis of the time stream, giving the illusion of teleportation to the naked eye.

Any ignorant person who decides to confront him will immediately create an unshakable destiny in which the souls of his victims will be destroyed by his spear.

Also the speed is clearly non-linear w.r.t time.
A.k.a immeasurable.
 
Based on the description, it sounds like Dimensional Travel. And "Traveling the dimensional axis as if they were teleporting" sounds Infinite at best but it also mentions illusion on the teleportation.
As a demon lord with more power than his hunters, his speed is faster than theirs, allowing him to travel and bypass the dimensional axis of the time stream, giving the illusion of teleportation to the naked eye.

We can understand that: Pluto's power allow him to when comes to bypass the dimensional axis of the time stream when comes to speed, and that's affirmation from the game. Dimensional travel is not stated in the text.

And for the person's fov, pluto will disappear like he's teleportating, hence the use of word illusion in the text.
 
Can Pluto actively attack his assailants in the past using sheer speed?

Thus far, none in DMC have demonstrated this. If he can't do that, then its not immeasurable speed, but we can make the argument for infinite speed.

The description only makes it sound like it looks like instant travel from the POV of the would be hunters. Which you can say comes from him moving so fast that zero time passes.

But nothing about that is the same as being able time travel through sheer speed.
 
Based on the description, it sounds like Dimensional Travel. And "Traveling the dimensional axis as if they were teleporting" sounds Infinite at best but it also mentions illusion on the teleportation.

The description actually links the feat to Pluto's own speed, not a specific type of ability like Dimensional Travel

To further prove the claim, the prosecution now calls its first witness, Mr Tony, who helped me via discord. We had a conversation about the Ripper, a demon who also has a impressive speed feat in Peak of Combat

Witness, what do u have to say about ?

裂者 宅是恶魔中存在的公多措人种族之一,在成斗中移动逮 度非常快,肉眼看不到宅的动作。 宅能形在不到一天的 时间内覆蓋整介冥界的毎一寸土地,唯一的目的就是导 井系死宅的猫物

Ripper

It is one of the many hunter races that exist among the demons and moves very fast in battle.
It moves so fast in battle that its movements are invisible to the naked eye. It can cover every inch of the Underworld in less than a day
It can cover every inch of the Underworld in less than a day, with the sole purpose of finding and killing its prey.
Its only purpose is to find and kill its prey.


Said quote is from a very specific type of hunter under Pluto's command called Ripper, they can travel the Underworld itself in less than a day

And how fast is that ?

Infinite, the Demon World is currently accepted as such, it's the reason why Nightmare's quotes were accepted as High 3-A

And why this isn't a outlier ?

They are a type of demon created and working directly from Pluto, nobody besides Dante, who could fight with them, scale to their speed. I understand that under normal conditions, having a normal demon at such high level of speed would be an outlier, but that comes from the fact that it would be inconsistent with the rest of the series' ratings, said event doesn't happen because Rippers don't scale to absolutely nobody besides Peak of Combat Dante, who was keeping up with Pluto, a God Tier who's 2-C and the owner of the Immeasurable speed statement. DMC does work with Universal Energy System, but that, as explained on past threads, doesn't force them to cross scale stats on every way, and as demons working directly for Pluto, them having a special ability unique to them isn't an absurd claim

For the second scan, they are also directly linked to Pluto's speed:

"As a demon lord with more power than his hunters, his speed is faster than theirs, allowing him to travel and bypass the dimensional axis of the time stream, giving the illusion of teleportation to the naked eye."

The immeasurable quote not only works on its own as a feat at that level, but also recalls Ripper's statements (that peak at Infinite speed) and directly say Pkuto is above them, this further adds weight to the quote

Thank you, Mr Tony

With the new info, we also need to fix one thing, DMC1 Dante and Nelo Angelo (his equal) should scale higher than POC Dante, who in turn should scale to Pluto, as I said on the OP, there are two options for Pluto's scaling: he either is the weakest 2-C or someone close to Mundus in power. Since by the DMC1 events we know for a fact that DMC1 Dante can't fight Full Power Mundus, ths also further proves the right scaling for Pluto is the low end where we go only by his feat (separating the original universe)

The section:

While Pluto's exact scaling is somewhat tricky, I don't think any 2-C should be left without the feat, he either is around Mundus level as a Demon King or (literally) the weakest/the baseline 2-C since that's his feat and the only possible scaling to him is his title

So while being 2-C, Pluto isn't near Mundus level since he was only a bit stronger than POC Dante, with the scaling ending up as:

Full Power Mundus >>>>> Dormant Mundus > DMC1 Dante >>> POC Dante =?= Pluto = Baseline 2-C
 
Can Pluto actively attack his assailants in the past using sheer speed?

Thus far, none in DMC have demonstrated this. If he can't do that, then its not immeasurable speed, but we can make the argument for infinite speed.

The description only makes it sound like it looks like instant travel from the POV of the would be hunters. Which you can say comes from him moving so fast that zero time passes.

But nothing about that is the same as being able time travel through sheer speed.
The text clearly gives says in its description he can bypass time stream with sheer speed.
Thats blatant non linear speed.
Burden of proof is already fullfilled

I don't see why your demand holds relvence.
Thats like saying if someone doesn't have visual speed feats of FTL, any statements of blatant description of faster then light isn't applicable.
Or in same sense, saying unless someone shows a universe being destroyed, any statements of such feats performed aren't applicable.

Which is whack logic.

Pluto’s is a lore statement it covers his every aspect.
 
The text clearly gives says in its description he can bypass time stream with sheer speed.
Thats blatant non linear speed.
Burden of proof is already fullfilled

I don't see why your demand holds relvence.
Thats like saying if someone doesn't have visual speed feats of FTL, any statements of blatant description of faster then light isn't applicable.
Or in same sense, saying unless someone shows a universe being destroyed, any statements of such feats performed aren't applicable.

Which is whack logic.

Pluto’s is a lore statement it covers his every aspect.
No, it doesn't.

Burden of proof gets higher and higher commensurate with the level of the claim.

And unfortunately immeasurable is a far higher claim than even infinite, which is quite easy to demonstrate in fictional story telling. Not so much with immeasurable, that's far trickier to demonstrate in linear storytelling.

The text can be interpreted easily to mean that Pluto moves so fast that he ignores the passage of time. I.e. he moves so fast that zero time passes. I.e. infinite speed.

The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that the text means without a shadow of doubt that Pluto can fight at what the Wiki's standard of immeasurable speed is; which is explicitly Anytime, "Anywhen".

Seeing as a video is posted of Pluto at best only attacking Dante within an instant and not even seconds in the past, I believe you will find the claim very hard to prove.

Your childish jump to ad-hominem is disappointing and to me demonstrates a lack of security in your claim.

Don't waste time with your weak minded bait if you can actually prove the claim. Do it, or dont.
 
Can Pluto actively attack his assailants in the past using sheer speed?

Demons have type 4 acausality so it's pretty much useless if he did plus I'm pretty sure that their is many characters in the wiki that have immeasurable speed by similar means

My point is trying to travel to the past or future by sheer speed isn't the only proof for immeasurable speed
 
Demons have type 4 acausality so it's pretty much useless if he did plus I'm pretty sure that their is many characters in the wiki that have immeasurable speed by similar means

My point is trying to travel to the past or future by sheer speed isn't the only proof for immeasurable speed
Type 4 acausality doesn't make you immune to immeasurable speed
 
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