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Trick or treat, give me a 2-B Sonic

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The ultimate insult right there.

But seriously, this is always what happens. Call a spade a spade and everyone fumes and practically begs for me to leave because my very presence as one who's not even willing to acknowledge obvious bs as legitimate (For to do that would be buying into the narrative that the arguments presented in this thread are logical and sound and worthy of serious discussion), because the moment I show up things stop going by their rhythm. And I'm sure this upgrade will pass by virtue of people stonewalling for 500+ posts because people have more will to dedicate time into these threads than anything more productive.
 
Rin The Dragon Empress said:
Why are we insulting Matt with "boomer?" shouldn't really be insulting anyone period but I'm not sure what boomer is supposed to mean in this case.
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Next they'll call me an incel or some other equally meaningless term.
 
Take note, people.

Several days of nothing but peace, I swear to you. I wanna reiterate this before we get back on topic with DDM's rebuttal, the thread was completely fine. Almost as if this exact same thing happened on the previous 2-B thread... But that's enough. I've said my part and it's about time we drop it. Sorry if this is clogging up the thread.
 
Cracks Knuckles

First of all, MaginaryWorld being called Universe wasn't the basis of it being against 2-B at all, but rather the other details. Also, a lot of those 2-A structured "Universes" are called Meta-Universes, which is a fancy synonym for universe. MaginaryWorld being called World in another dimension alone doesn't debunk the idea that it's 2-B structured yes; however, there is far more clarifications for the structure of each and every dream world in the MaginaryWorld.

Again, "Dreams becoming true" or "Dreams becoming reality" =/= to the dreams being entire universes. If it said dreams are turned into alternate realities like the context of some other verses, then they would be universes. Semantics and context is far more important than a dated dictionary written in the late 1800's. And it was mentioned above that imageries from 4th Dimension Space are visible in other dream worlds. 4th Dimension space is the only Dream World that has context to be universe sized, but the name 4th dimension space is word salad as mentioned on other threads. Ultima's new definition for dimensions suggests that 4th dimension =/= to being its own Space-Time. And even then, 4th Dimension Space is clearly defined as a special Dream World that's astronomically bigger than every other dream world put together. And it makes sense for the goddess of dreams to have a dream far bigger than a bunch of random people from "Other dimensions".

Also, those images do not prove that they're parallel universes. It may have been created from Sonic's memories, dreams, or wishes, but that's it. There's no "Universe sized timeline" just because Emerald Coast and Firebird exist. There's also no statement about them mirroring the universe, only a light showing of mirroring a few locations in Sonic's home planet. There are plenty of feats of characters creating worlds/dimensions that mirror someone's world, but that doesn't mean parallel universe by default. Take Zant or Yuga for example; they're not Universal or Multiversal despite supposedly creating and/or warping world that mirrors "Link and Zelda's world". And that it was contained in the Universe the Golden Goddesses created. Or take the creation of Dark Aether for instance. Aether was stated when the Leviatha crashed to have the entire mass-energy split and that it gave birth to a "Parallel Dimension" and caused "All life to exist across two parallel universes due to the trans-dimensional Flux." But despite that, the Leviathans aren't universal despite creating the parallel dimension, nor is Dark Samus universal despite surviving the destruction of it, nor is Samus in her Light Suit due to being the one who destroyed it with her own attacks.

Even if the dream worlds having starry skies or dimensions isn't enough for it to be Universes. Or heck, even creating a pocket reality containing a galaxy or two isn't enough to be universe sized. I remember when Al used to be 3-C via scaling from this guy, who created a realm this big. He may not have that tier, but keep in mind, that it was only accepted at 3-C even back when the feat was used. So even containing at least one galaxy isn't enough to make a world creating feat Low 2-C. They either need to be stated to be universes and/or alternate realities. Or at least one of the regular dreams needs context to be universes sized, not just the entirety of MaginaryWorld and not just 4th Dimension space because the very intros hammer them being far bigger than the rest of the dream worlds put together. Just because our universe could be infinite in size doesn't mean every planet and star put together is infinite. Just because someone is over 6 feet tall doesn't mean every bone in their body is over 6 feet long. Lumina Flow herself states all the other dream worlds are literally inside the 4th dimension Space. She does say that the worlds are seperate, but context implies it's just the dream worlds are separate from each other. Not that they're separate from MaginaryWorld as that would contradict the premise of MaginaryWorld containing them all.

So in other words, Low 2-C for the entirety of MaginaryWorld is really the best we can put it. Second, there are doubts about it even being canon to Game Sonic to begin with, meaning 2-B may not even scale to Solaris even if it was legit. But the last thing is Void. He is said to be "Corrupting the Universe". Corrupting the universe is a range feat and a hax feat, but it's not a combat applicable Tier feat; though it counts as an environmental destruction feat. Examples include almost every Kirby Villain, who can corrupt the universe but isn't 3-A. Absalom is also not physically 3-A. Dark Samus is not 3-A or better yet High 3-A given the Metroid Universe having an infinite size statement in the Chozo lore, or 2-C given the existence of a parallel dimension in Echoes. So while Void could still be Low 2-C in terms of environmental destruction, and Precious Stone which holds the MaginaryWorld together possibly being a likely glass cannon also indicates he doesn't need to physically be Tier 2. It also problem solves the outlier of him being defeated by Base Sonic.

So all in all, Illumina is best stayed at Low 2-C, and she probably shouldn't scale to anyone even if that changed. And the only change I can see is Void possibly getting downgraded. Which I'm fine if he stays, but I think him getting a downgrade is more reasonable.
 
Listentomyrhytm said:
Quick question Matt, do you have an argument against the upgrade? Just really curious.
Click to expand...
Nothing proves Maginaryworld's worlds are universes other than just an assumption that "it seems likely since alternate realities". Or that they are all equally real or just abstractions. Besides it's a fekking party game that people wanna act is primary canon.
 
Sorry but aren't maginaryworld and dream depot from mario party basically the same in concept and even the arguments presented here?

Why is one argued against and one is not if that is the case?
 
@Absaddie, no; completely different and we had long discussions about that. The difference is that those had dreams actually stated to be alternate realities, and that it's consistent throughout multiple games in the franchise. And stuff like individual dream words both being shown and stated to be universe sized, not just the entirety of it. Anyway, I'd appreciate it if you don't bring that up in this thread as that spites more toxicity.
 
Nothing proves Maginaryworld's worlds are universes other than just an assumption that "it seems likely since alternate realities". Or that they are all equally real or just abstractions. Besides it's a fekking party game that people wanna act is primary canon.

You mean the same party game was was alluded to within Archie Comics to have taken place, exactly like the game continuity and even tells you to play it? The party game that actually has a story and full-blown plot with lore-establishing stuff? And the game that was referenced just months ago within the canon Forces Comic, establishing that the game was never forgotten within Sega? The party game that's never contradicted by lore either, and is only a party game in formatting and gameplay?

That isn't a strong argument. Try again.
 
It was also referenced in the canon Forces comic

also how come nobodies mention one of the most straight forward reasons for why dreams are universes?
 
Also the Archie Sonic issue is promotional material for the game.I don't see why contradicted or noncanon info would be given out for an advertisement of the game.Something that was ignored previously.
 
Archie Sonic isn't canon to game Sonic and is a different company from Sega as well as having its own continuity from the games. Though, Sonic Shuffle being long and "Forgotten" doesn't automatically make it non-canon. More like Dubiously canon would be better word. Not saying it isn't canon either. But still, it's more preferable to here the "Everything is canon" statement from Sega or the Sonic creator themselves rather than someone like Ian Flynn.
 
Yeah, we know. Never did I say Archie was canon, I was making a point that it references the game to find out the story. Because there is a story, after all.

Edit: It's still referenced in the Forces comic, which is canon to the games.
 
StH issue 92 had a small adaptation for Sonic Shuffle, but I don't think it was part of the comic continuity, as it was more of a tie-in.
 
This has nothing to do with Archie Sonic's continuity though.It has to do with the fact that the comic was used an an advertisement to promote the game.Keep in mind Sega allowed licensing towards the comic. I'm not saying the actual canon of Archie Sonic is legit to the game but promotional material for the games from Archie which was licensed and allowed by Sega would be unless contradicted.

Anyway this has no real prevalence and I'll respond to your debunks soon.
 
Yeah, arguing canonicity should be the last thing being brought up. If something is contradicted by a future installment, that's where we take a step back and reevaluate it being canon.
 
Sera EX said:
StH issue 92 had a small adaptation for Sonic Shuffle, but I don't think it was part of the comic continuity, as it was more of a tie-in.
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024AABFC-0E5B-4D4E-A4B3-1E3FED6614E1
I have a lot of things memorized
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
@Absaddie, no; completely different and we had long discussions about that. The difference is that those had dreams actually stated to be alternate realities, and that it's consistent throughout multiple games in the franchise. And stuff like individual dream words both being shown and stated to be universe sized, not just the entirety of it. Anyway, I'd appreciate it if you don't bring that up in this thread as that spites more toxicity.
Click to expand...
I don't see how it brings up toxicity, all I did was ask a question why one did and why one didn't as I thought it would help to know the difference.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Cracks Knuckles
First of all, MaginaryWorld being called Universe wasn't the basis of it being against 2-B at all, but rather the other details. Also, a lot of those 2-A structured "Universes" are called Meta-Universes, which is a fancy synonym for universe. MaginaryWorld being called World in another dimension alone doesn't debunk the idea that it's 2-B structured yes; however, there is far more clarifications for the structure of each and every dream world in the MaginaryWorld.
Click to expand...
Good, then the being called a universe part is irrelevant.

Again, "Dreams becoming true" or "Dreams becoming reality" =/= to the dreams being entire universes. If it said dreams are turned into alternate realities like the context of some other verses, then they would be universes. Semantics and context is far more important than a dated dictionary written in the late 1800's. And it was mentioned above that imageries from 4th Dimension Space are visible in other dream worlds. 4th Dimension space is the only Dream World that has context to be universe sized, but the name 4th dimension space is word salad as mentioned on other threads. Ultima's new definition for dimensions suggests that 4th dimension =/= to being its own Space-Time. And even then, 4th Dimension Space is clearly defined as a special Dream World that's astronomically bigger than every other dream world put together. And it makes sense for the goddess of dreams to have a dream far bigger than a bunch of random people from "Other dimensions".

This is a repetition of what was already refuted, you don't see 4th Dimension Space from the dream worlds, you are appealing to Zamasu Chan's incorrect claims that he told you. No, 4th Dimension Space isn't just "word salad" when it being an actual fourth dimension is actually supported. I also never claimed people's dreams were as big as Fourth Dimension Space.

Also, those images do not prove that they're parallel universes. It may have been created from Sonic's memories, dreams, or wishes, but that's it. There's no "Universe sized timeline" just because Emerald Coast and Firebird exist. There's also no statement about them mirroring the universe, only a light showing of mirroring a few locations in Sonic's home planet. There are plenty of feats of characters creating worlds/dimensions that mirror someone's world, but that doesn't mean parallel universe by default. Take Zant or Yuga for example; they're not Universal or Multiversal despite supposedly creating and/or warping world that mirrors "Link and Zelda's world". And that it was contained in the Universe the Golden Goddesses created. Or take the creation of Dark Aether for instance. Aether was stated when the Leviatha crashed to have the entire mass-energy split and that it gave birth to a "Parallel Dimension" and caused "All life to exist across two parallel universes due to the trans-dimensional Flux." But despite that, the Leviathans aren't universal despite creating the parallel dimension, nor is Dark Samus universal despite surviving the destruction of it, nor is Samus in her Light Suit due to being the one who destroyed it with her own attacks.

If a world mirrors a dimension that is a universe, that would indeed make it universal in size as in order to mirror something, you would have to be same size as the thing you're mirroring. That's about as obvious as it gets. The dream worlds mirror each other and contain locations from Sonic's world because that's the universe the cast lives in, which would make their dream worlds versions of their home world where their dreams are real.

Even if the dream worlds having starry skies or dimensions isn't enough for it to be Universes. Or heck, even creating a pocket reality containing a galaxy or two isn't enough to be universe sized. I remember when Al used to be 3-C via scaling from this guy, who created a realm this big. He may not have that tier, but keep in mind, that it was only accepted at 3-C even back when the feat was used. So even containing at least one galaxy isn't enough to make a world creating feat Low 2-C. They either need to be stated to be universes and/or alternate realities. Or at least one of the regular dreams needs context to be universes sized, not just the entirety of MaginaryWorld and not just 4th Dimension space because the very intros hammer them being far bigger than the rest of the dream worlds put together. Just because our universe could be infinite in size doesn't mean every planet and star put together is infinite. Just because someone is over 6 feet tall doesn't mean every bone in their body is over 6 feet long. Lumina Flow herself states all the other dream worlds are literally inside the 4th dimension Space. She does say that the worlds are seperate, but context implies it's just the dream worlds are separate from each other. Not that they're separate from MaginaryWorld as that would contradict the premise of MaginaryWorld containing them all.

One, I didn't say that having a galaxy was enough to make it a universe. I brought up the galaxy as it refutes claims of the dream worlds being only 4-A. I also never said the dream worlds were separate from Maginaryworld as indeed, it's very much obvious that Maginaryworld is where all dreams are.

So in other words, Low 2-C for the entirety of MaginaryWorld is really the best we can put it. Second, there are doubts about it even being canon to Game Sonic to begin with, meaning 2-B may not even scale to Solaris even if it was legit. But the last thing is Void. He is said to be "Corrupting the Universe". Corrupting the universe is a range feat and a hax feat, but it's not a combat applicable Tier feat; though it counts as an environmental destruction feat. Examples include almost every Kirby Villain, who can corrupt the universe but isn't 3-A. Absalom is also not physically 3-A. Dark Samus is not 3-A or better yet High 3-A given the Metroid Universe having an infinite size statement in the Chozo lore, or 2-C given the existence of a parallel dimension in Echoes. So while Void could still be Low 2-C in terms of environmental destruction, and Precious Stone which holds the MaginaryWorld together possibly being a likely glass cannon also indicates he doesn't need to physically be Tier 2. It also problem solves the outlier of him being defeated by Base Sonic.

I wouldn't have a problem with making Void tier 2 via hax. Also, Shuffle is definitely canon and nothing points to it being otherwise.

So all in all, Illumina is best stayed at Low 2-C, and she probably shouldn't scale to anyone even if that changed. And the only change I can see is Void possibly getting downgraded. Which I'm fine if he stays, but I think him getting a downgrade is more reasonable.

See above.
 
@DarkDragonMedus

First of all, MaginaryWorld being called Universe wasn't the basis of it being against 2-B at all, but rather the other details. Also, a lot of those 2-A structured "Universes" are called Meta-Universes, which is a fancy synonym for universe. MaginaryWorld being called World in another dimension alone doesn't debunk the idea that it's 2-B structured yes; however, there is far more clarifications for the structure of each and every dream world in the MaginaryWorld.

MaginaryWorld was never supposed to be just a "World" though. It's literally a place where all the countless dreams that come from everyone are located in. It's an entire dimension that holds everyone's dreams in place. I'm not sure where you're getting "Meta-Universes" from? The game states that the Precious Stone is what holds the dimension together, thus is comprised of dreams from people in all the other dimensions. The game even states that MaginaryWorld has countless locations how is that merely 2-C?

Again, "Dreams becoming true" or "Dreams becoming reality" =/= to the dreams being entire universes. If it said dreams are turned into alternate realities like the context of some other verses, then they would be universes.


No, if the dreams come from other people in other dimensions? That confirms the idea that these dreams are from alternate realities. If the dreams already come from people in other dimensions and they are literally stated to become reality then yes you have enough evidence to imply that they are alternate realities. Dreams become reality, so if the dreams are shown to contain locations from Sonic's world and mirror each other with the same galaxy and stars? Then yes these are alternate versions of Sonic's world where the dreams are real, and Sonic's world is obviously a universe.

So the rundown is this: 1. MaginaryWorld is countless. They are countless dreams in this world all held together by the power of the Precioustone. This means MaginaryWorld is massive in size, it can not be Low 2-C when it's size is much larger than that.

2.The fact that Dreams can become real, they are alternate versions of locations from Sonic world, countless people's dreams from ALL dimensions are being stored into this one place and are being held together by the Precioustone itself? You don't need anything to be stated when this is very clear cut

3. Also, the Fourth Dimensional Space is actually the location where ALL the dreams are stored. Why are you bringing up Ultima Reality's dimensional tiring thread when it's not relevant here? Nobody said anything about the dreams being as big as the Fourth Dimensional Space, but the fact that it's the location where all the dreams are stored from countless people from countless dimensions then yes this should in fact be 2-B.
 
Dreams from alternate realities =/= dreams literally being alternate realities. Also, that was a strawman. I mentioned Bilious Slick and Shin Megami Tensui examples mentioned above and stated in the blog are stated to be "Meta-Universes", not that MaginaryWorld was one or that such statement exists in Sonic

4th dimension statement is very relevant because that is word salad. I could use the "Alien from the 79th dimension" statement to upgrade TMNT to 1-B by that logic. "Becoming reality" can just mean becoming part of reality. Mirror worlds doesn't by default mean they're mirroring the entire universe, it just means they're mirroring his home world and/or his memories. MaginaryWorld can be Low 2-C because none of the other Dream Worlds have proof of being Low 2-C sized. And even 4th Dimension Space is like High 3-A sized at best. 4th Dimension Space is still in turn larger than all the other dream worlds put together.
 
>Can you actually provide evidence for it being as such instead of saying word salad as that's not gonna cut it or convince anyone you need to address the points Shadow made in the blog.

>It's referring to the dreams becoming reality not just a small portion of it where is the proof for that?And we know the dream's reality is far bigger than a small portion when an ocean of stars exists in one of the worlds.Also the dream worlds come from and are made a reality mirroring the different dimensions which would become this reality as stated not just a small portion the entire reality to assume otherwise would be a stretch and a headcanon.This explains the ocean of stars and celestial bodies.Also yes the ocean of stars statement comes after the world is restored to a cloudy sky.

>Again the dreams exist separately which debunks them being apart of the entire size of 4-D Space.Hell when the dream worlds are restored we no longer see the same background of 4-D space but a clear blue sky.Also Lumina teleports and warps Sonic and co to each world which is further evidence they exist seperatly.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Dreams from alternate realities =/= dreams literally being alternate realities. Also, that was a strawman. I mentioned Bilious Slick and Shin Megami Tensui examples mentioned above and stated in the blog are stated to be "Meta-Universes", not that MaginaryWorld was one or that such statement exists in Sonic
4th dimension statement is very relevant because that is word salad. I could use the "Alien from the 79th dimension" statement to upgrade TMNT to 1-B by that logic. "Becoming reality" can just mean becoming part of reality. Mirror worlds doesn't by default mean they're mirroring the entire universe, it just means they're mirroring his home world. MaginaryWorld can be Low 2-C because none of the other Dream Worlds have proof of being Low 2-C sized. And even 4th Dimension Space is like High 3-A sized at best. 4th Dimension Space is still in turn larger than all the other dream worlds put together.
Click to expand...
DarkDragon...

Thank you for clearing up what you meant by "Meta-Universes" but that statement is still wrong. If every Dream becomes its own reality then yes, dreams from alternate realities do, in fact, = dreams literally being alternate realities. It's just that simple DDM.

Also, I see you have not read Shadster's blog at all because this point once again breaks down why that line of thinking is faulty: "Fourth Dimension Space is just flowery language and doesn't mean it's the actual 4th dimension."

Sure, a statement of being x dimensional without any evidence should be disregarded, but context here is important. The Fourth Dimension Space here is stated to hold countless worlds that are each already implied to be universes. It's safe to say this is a legit one.
 
Because there's 0 proof that the dream worlds have their own space-time continuum. So case and point. Again, Dreams becoming Reality =/= each and every dream giving birth to an alternate reality from the Chaos of Creation. For example, I made some of my dreams become a reality when I graduated high school at the age of 16, or graduated college, or when I scored 200 on an IQ test, Or when I became a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. But anyway, the Semantics don't say they became alternate realities altogether just that they became reality or came into existence.

I have read every word of his blog, the point was none of it holds enough weight to qualify for 2-B. And once again, none of the dream worlds are implied to be universes.
 
Mirror worlds doesn't by default mean they're mirroring the entire universe, it just means they're mirroring his home world.

Thanks for proving our point, lol. Yes, if a mirror world mirrors Sonic's World then it's universe sized. Are you implying that his home world is not universe sized DDM? Because you'd be incorrect.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Dreams from alternate realities =/= dreams literally being alternate realities. Also, that was a strawman. I mentioned Bilious Slick and Shin Megami Tensui examples mentioned above and stated in the blog are stated to be "Meta-Universes", not that MaginaryWorld was one or that such statement exists in Sonic
Click to expand...
Ok but you already acknowledged that being called a universe doesn't invalidate it from being 2-B? Why continue with this then?

4th dimension statement is very relevant because that is word salad. I could use the "Alien from the 79th dimension" statement to upgrade TMNT to 1-B by that logic. "Becoming reality" can just mean becoming part of reality. Mirror worlds doesn't by default mean they're mirroring the entire universe, it just means they're mirroring his home world. MaginaryWorld can be Low 2-C because none of the other Dream Worlds have proof of being Low 2-C sized. And even 4th Dimension Space is like High 3-A sized at best. 4th Dimension Space is still in turn larger than all the other dream worlds put together.

That's a bad analogy DDM. You're using a case where a statement of "lol I'm 79 dimensional" is thrown around without any evidence.

"Mirror worlds doesn't by default mean they're mirroring the entire universe, it just means they're mirroring his home world."

Excuse me what? Yes, a world that mirrors a universe makes said world a universe.

"And even 4th Dimension Space is like High 3-A sized at best."

And what would this be based on?
 
His home world is planet Mobius, which is contained inside a universe, but it's literally not an entire universe. Because 4th Dimensional Space has no proof of being its own timeline.
 
Except your "dreams" aren't apart of Maginary World.The Precious Stone specifically states to make things come true and makes the dreams a reality.The dreams are mirroring more than just the planet as it's mirroring celestial bodies and other astral objects.To say they aren't universes at this point is a bigger stretch than to claim they are.
 
It doesn't say a reality it just says reality. And yes, you can mirror a planet including the skies having visual stars without the stars themselves being universes. Astronomers built museums and decorations that mirror the cosmos all the time.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
His home world is planet Mobius, which is contained inside a universe, but it's literally not an entire universe. Because 4th Dimensional Space has no proof of being its own timeline.
Click to expand...
The fact that the dream worlds mirror more than just the planet proves otherwise as an ocean of stars and celestial bodies exist.This proves the reality mirrored is the universe.To say it's not is a big stretch considering the whole copying reality which Sonic's would be a universe and the whole ocean of stars thing.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Because there's 0 proof that the dream worlds have their own space-time continuum. So case and point. Again, Dreams becoming Reality =/= each and every dream giving birth to an alternate reality from the Chaos of Creation. For example, I made some of my dreams become a reality when I graduated high school at the age of 16, or graduated college, or when I scored 200 on an IQ test, Or when I became a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. But anyway, the Semantics don't say they became alternate realities altogether just that they became reality or came into existence.
I have read every word of his blog, the point was none of it holds enough weight to qualify for 2-B. And once again, none of the dream worlds are implied to be universes.
Click to expand...

No offense, but your example is an epic fail. MaginaryWorld is not the same as achieving a goal irl. It's where all the dreams from countless people from countless dimensions currently reside in. The power of the Precioustone makes these things real and tangible.

The dreams actually become real and tangible which they are countless of. This isn't the same as people saying their dreams come true, in the sense they achieved something they desired.
 
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