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Trick or treat, give me a 2-B Sonic

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Real quick I'd like something to be addressed. I already agreed with this and still do for the time being but there's a few issues at hand, at least with the blog.

Parallels Argument
Much of the reasoning for the Maginaryworld multiverse is that the dreams are implied to be parallel universes. This is because of both Fourth Dimension Space's stuff and what I'd like to call the parallels argument. Specifically it says this;

"One detail to note is that Emerald Coast, the name of Knuckles's dream world is an actual locatio on Sonic's world. Not only this, but in scenes there are instances of the stars looking identical in the dream worlds. Fire Bird and Nature Zone have the same city inside them. There is also the appearance of a galaxy like object at the start of each mini-game in each of the dream worlds.

These scans would indicate that these dream worlds are indeed parallel versions of Sonic's world, which is a universe."

While the stars and galaxy observation is consistent, there's one error with the reasoning behind them being parallel universes. How can a 3D location that mimics a location Sonic's world entail a parallel dimension, let alone with its own space and time?

Dreams are typically built off of commonalities in daily life. Dreams having locations from the real world would be something you'd expect to see regardless of there being space-time continuums for these universes or not.

When Solaris created a pocket dimension in the ending of Sonic 06, it contained areas like Crisis City and even broken up Soleanna. Just because it mimics a location doesn't mean it's a parallel universe. Yes, it parallels it, but we don't slap the word "universe" on in place of "pocket universe" because of that.

Definitions
The other reason for 4D dreams was that dreams are part of 4th dimension space, an area where the countless dreams are (mainly) stored and are all separate. The blog says;

"It being called the Fourth Dimensional Space indicates this being a 4 dimensional realm. Additionally, the worlds are stated and shown to exist separately from one another, further cementing these dream worlds being universes of their own as each would have to be a 4 dimensional construct to naturally exist and function in the Fourth Dimension Space."

Let's take a step back. What do we define as the fourth dimension? Typically we'd say time. Of course this isn't the fourth dimension, it's a fourth dimension. After all, if it was the fourth dimension it'd have to include all of time. However it clearly doesn't, because it's a time-space continuum separate from say Sonic's.

Being a space-time continuum is a singular universe, which is supported from the manuals calling it "a universe." But of course, statements like this can be contradicted by direct evidence, right? And all the dreams are separate and function in a 4D area, whereas they have to be 4D to do so and are separate in their 4D-ness.

But the highlight here is that they could literally just be 3D worlds that are separated. They function in a 4D space, yes, but let's say (hypothetically) our 3D universe was contained in a branch of 3D universes that are all moved by time. That doesn't make the universes themselves 4D. That's just time supporting 3D areas, and given that this is a fourth dimension where individual 3D worlds the characters can traverse are separated but are still within a singular thing, it supports that idea of the Fourth Dimension being a universe and the worlds being pocket dimensions in it, even if they are large in size.

Tl;dr, 3D leaves on a 4D branch being moved by time doesn't make the 3D leaves 4D, it makes the branch 4D. This "branch" is consistently stated to be and this evidence further suggests that, plus being individual on a 4D branch doesn't make you 4D.

Rebuttal Errors
"Being called a universe doesn't automatically make Maginaryworld Low 2-C. First, lets look at the Webster's dictionary definition of a universe:

"1 : the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated : COSMOS: such as a : a systematic whole held to arise by and persist through the direct intervention of divine power b : the world of human experience c(1) : the entire celestial cosmos (2) : MILKY WAY GALAXY (3) : an aggregate of stars comparable to the Milky Way galaxy 2 : a distinct field or province of thought or reality that forms a closed system or self-inclusive and independent organization 3 : POPULATION sense 4 4 : a set that contains all elements relevant to a particular discussion or problem 5 : a great number or quantity a large enough universe of stocks … to choose from"

This is an appeal to definition. Rather than going off of a literal definition, it picks what's the most appealing and consistent one. In a separate universe sense, we define a universe as a physical area with galaxies that has a space-time continuum. This definition is focusing on set theory that's used in labeling items for a category, and this definition is only used after finding defining that category to begin with.

Essentially, you can only call a set universal if you found something that includes all of these. In particular, you could even say the Fourth Dimension being called a universe is supported by this because it contains (a majority) of the dream worlds.

Conclusion
We need to address the following:

  • Dream worlds mimicing locations in Sonic's world doesn't make them entire parallels with all the same qualities
  • The Fourth Dimension is a fourth dimension, and the worlds are being moved by the time it provides. They aren't pushing themselves to be 4D, they're being allowed time, and being individual doesn't change this
  • The universe definition is irreleveant to multiverse discussions and is appeal to a definition that not only doesn't support the argument but helps the opposition
 
Darksspine said:
Again, I don't oppose the idea of 2-B Maginaryworld, there's just some small inconsistencies.
Click to expand...
You could have talked about this with Shadow in private because your comment is also going to help the opposition even though you agree with 2-B

Anyways I wasn't the one who made the blog so I will just wait for Shadow to adress it
 
Darksspine said:
Again, I don't oppose the idea of 2-B Maginaryworld, there's just some small inconsistencies.
Click to expand...
This. I feel it's one of those "parallel dimension" cases.
 
MaginaryWorld is made up of the dreams of people. It's clearly a separate dimension. The Sonic Multiverse is made up of alternate timelines. If this is legit, that means MaginaryWorld is also comprised of the dreams of people from say, Silver's future. That is, unless his future has its own version of MaginaryWorld. The former is 2-B, the latter is At most Low 2-C.

I know the Archie version of MaginaryWorld confirms the former, it is the realm where the dreams of people from all zones (universes) originate but I'm not that versed in the game version.

Now, Blaze comes from "another dimension" as well, and if they mean she comes from another universe that means Sonic differentiates parallel universes and alternate timelines, similar to Marvel and DC. However again, in the case of MaginaryWorld this could be quite a few things.

I'm all for 2-B if it has enough supporting evidence but as usual there are more things to address here and to consider.
 
Lumina and the mannual do say that Maginary World is made of the dreams of people from all dimensions, the scan was already posted me thinks

And it was already explained before that it being called a universe/dimension doesn't stop 2-B

I would suggest for Sera to talk with Shadow in private about those doubts instead of a long thread
 
Now, Blaze comes from "another dimension" as well, and if they mean she comes from another universe that means Sonic differentiates parallel universes and alternate timelines, similar to Marvel and DC. However again, in the case of MaginaryWorld this could be quite a few things.

Differentiate how?
 
@Zamasu

Let's say today you ate a turkey sandwich. In another timeline, you ate a ham sandwich. That's alternate timeline.

Now let's say that in some other reality, you were completely different. You were a cat person with different parents, a different (though possibly similar) backstory, and instead of being a user on Vs Battles Wiki, you were a user on Vs Debates Wiki. That's a parallel universe.

In summary, the difference between the two is that an alternate timeline is a divergence from a universe as the result of some minute differences (though some can be rather significant), and a parallel universe is an alternate reality with fundamentally different circumstances to begin with.

Universe A is where you're a human and Universe B is where you're a cat person. Both universes can have their own divergent timelines.

Edit: In the case of Sonic, Blaze is considered to be from another dimension and is considered that dimension's counterpart of Sonic and Knuckles, whereas in another timeline, Sonic would still be a blue hedgehog that runs really fast.
 
@Sera, there's no real diference between Archie Maginary World and game Maginary World, the comic even tells you to play the game to see the story and everything, the only diference is that Lumina explicitaly says that the Previous Stone supports Extra-dimensional worlds
 
@Darksspine I brought up Emerald Coast as an example, not that it was conclusive evidence in itself. That's why I showed the dream worlds mirroring each other. So if each dream world is where a person's dreams become reality, it would have to be a mirror image of their dimension where their dreams come true. Solaris also didn't create a pocket universe, that was a rift formed by Solaris distorting space-time and Crisis City and Soleanna got sucked into it.

"Let's take a step back. What do we define as the fourth dimension? Typically we'd say time. Of course this isn't the fourth dimension, it's a fourth dimension. After all, if it was the fourth dimension it'd have to include all of time. However it clearly doesn't, because it's a time-space continuum separate from say Sonic's."

Yes Fourth Dimension Space doesn't encompass the multiverse as a whole, only the dream worlds inside Maginaryworld. Look at it like this, lets use New York State to represent Sonic's multiverse, and each building in the state represents a universe. Maginaryworld/Fourth Dimension Space would essentially be New York City, as that's where the largest concentration of universes (buildings) is at, and upstate New York would be the rest of Sonic's multiverse.

"Being a space-time continuum is a singular universe, which is supported from the manuals calling it "a universe." But of course, statements like this can be contradicted by direct evidence, right? And all the dreams are separate and function in a 4D area, whereas they have to be 4D to do so and are separate in their 4D-ness."

That would be the default assumption, but if there is more evidence pointing to it being higher than Low 2-C, then obviously it wouldn't be Low 2-C just because it was called a universe.

"But the highlight here is that they could literally just be 3D worlds that are separated. They function in a 4D space, yes, but let's say (hypothetically) our 3D universe was contained in a branch of 3D universes that are all moved by time. That doesn't make the universes themselves 4D. That's just time supporting 3D areas, and given that this is a fourth dimension where individual 3D worlds the characters can traverse are separated but are still within a singular thing, it supports that idea of the Fourth Dimension being a universe and the worlds being pocket dimensions in it, even if they are large in size."

This is saying Maginaryworld is a quilted multiverse, but that would be really stretching it simply because all the dream worlds are within it. A multiverse in general is a collection of universes, they're all within a singular thing but that doesn't mean they're all within the same space-time continuum. Also going back to the dream worlds mirroring the dimensions the dreamers live in, we already know that these dimensions are universes with a space-time continuum, so if they are a version of their dimension where their dreams come true, then each dream world would have to be a Low 2-C construct as well by virtue of being a copy of them.

The appeal to definition is a fair criticism, but I was only conveying that being called a universe doesn't invalidate something from being higher than Low 2-C if there's evidence supporting it. User is also right, I would've preferred if you told me about this beforehand.

@Sera EX Check your DM, I'll send you scans.
 
Theuser789 said:
@Sera, there's no real diference between Archie Maginary World and game Maginary World, the comic even tells you to play the game to see the story and everything, the only diference is that Lumina explicitaly says that the Previous Stone supports Extra-dimensional worlds
Click to expand...
Tbf the issue that provides the info of Maginary World supporting the existence of extradimensional worlds is a promotional panel used to promote the game.Even though Archie isn't established canon to Game Sonic.I don't see why the panel giving advertising information not be canon to the game they're trying to promote.

However I do want to point out that a cosmological multiverse structure being called a universe doesn't debunk it being one as shown with SMT,Homestuck and Archie Sonic.
 
"I brought up Emerald Coast as an example, not that it was conclusive evidence in itself. That's why I showed the dream worlds mirroring each other. So if each dream world is where a person's dreams become reality, it would have to be a mirror image of their dimension where their dreams come true."

I didn't say it was conclusive evidence by itself, I said that was one of your premises for Low 2-C dreams. You stated that yourself in the blog.

And again, this wouldn't be dimensional. Mimicing a location is different from mirroring a dimension.

"Solaris also didn't create a pocket universe, that was a rift formed by Solaris distorting space-time and Crisis City and Soleanna got sucked into it."

I already know that, it was the best example I could make and is irrelevant to the actual argument at hand.

"Yes Fourth Dimension Space doesn't encompass the multiverse as a whole, only the dream worlds inside Maginaryworld. Look at it like this, lets use New York State to represent Sonic's multiverse, and each building in the state represents a universe. Maginaryworld/Fourth Dimension Space would essentially be New York City, as that's where the largest concentration of universes (buildings) is at, and upstate New York would be the rest of Sonic's multiverse."

That's a poor comparison.

Your blog gave one of the reasons as because the dreams are in this 4D space, they're 4D. This comparison says they're 4D, and that's why they're concentrated in the 4D space. It's circular.

Plus this doesn't contradict the fact that this is "a" fourth dimension. If it's a single time, and it encompasses other worlds, that should say the other worlds don't have individual times. They're individual worlds.

"That would be the default assumption, but if there is more evidence pointing to it being higher than Low 2-C, then obviously it wouldn't be Low 2-C just because it was called a universe."

I literally stated this and debunked this exact point that you're trying to refute my debunk with.

"But of course, statements like this can be contradicted by direct evidence, right? And all the dreams are separate and function in a 4D area, whereas they have to be 4D to do so and are separate in their 4D-ness. But..."

Please combat the argument with something that isn't already included in the refute.

"This is saying Maginaryworld is a quilted multiverse, but that would be really stretching it simply because all the dream worlds are within it. A multiverse in general is a collection of universes, they're all within a singular thing but that doesn't mean they're all within the same space-time continuum."

A multiverse is different from a singular space-time that includes the dreams.

"Also going back to the dream worlds mirroring the dimensions the dreamers live in, we already know that these dimensions are universes with a space-time continuum, so if they are a version of their dimension where their dreams come true, then each dream world would have to be a Low 2-C construct as well by virtue of being a copy of them."

Slow your roll. Firstly, no, we don't "already know" that these dimensions are universes with a space-time continuum. You're trying to argue that they are and using your conclusion in your premise. That's circular reasoning.

And again, mimicing a 3D location doesn't directly mean you're mimicing every quality on a 4D level and you'd have to prove that it does.

"The appeal to definition is a fair criticism, but I was only conveying that being called a universe doesn't invalidate something from being higher than Low 2-C if there's evidence supporting it."

Except that it invalidates that evidence supporting it.

"User is also right, I would've preferred if you told me about this beforehand."

Sorry uwu
 
Oblivion Lightning said:
However I do want to point out that a cosmological multiverse structure being called a universe doesn't debunk it being one as shown with SMT,Homestuck and Archie Sonic.
Click to expand...
You already said this. Again, statements can be contradicted by direct evidence, but this is a case where the "direct evidence" doesn't.
 
Since you agree with 2-B but disagrees with some point of the blog, for what exact reasons do you agree with 2-B? Just curious

Anyways I can't really respond since I wasn't the one who made the blog
 
That's not what I was implying but ok.

Also I'm interested on your reasons for supporting 2-B as you support it. I'm afraid that going back and forth on what to fix on the blog is counterproductive.
 
Of course I would point out flaws in the blog if necessary.

Just curious as to your supporting reasons as you have been giving resistance on the blog so we can incorporate the two to make the best case.
 
I disagree with my old reasons for support. What I mean is if there's an argument that solidifies 2-B I'm more than glad to accept it.

Actually, now that I think about it;

Extra 2-B Reasoning Incoming
While the other arguments aren't as solid, consider this.

The dreams within 4th Dimension Space are obviously controlled by that shared time. All together that's Low 2-C.

However, there's a dream for each main character, and they all exist outside of 4th Dimension Space. For these individual dreams to function properly they'd need time, and it's clearly shown they don't need 4th Dimension Space's help.

Meaning that not only is everyone's misc. dreams included in 4th Dimension Space, but they actually all have their own personal dream dimension made for them exactly.

While this wouldn't be countless, this would still be in the tens of billions due to how many people there are, along with these people in other dimensions.
 
Joke: Well-Crafted Blog Posts that present all the evidence in a neat, organized and understandable way, with scans, quotes, videos and citations.

Woke: Upgrade Threads that just throw a bunch of scans and videos at you along with a giant wall of text and expect you to just take it in stride

Bespoke: CROPPED UNTRANSLATED UNSOURCED JAPANESE SCANS
 
I'll shoot this all down in just a moment. It's by Sera's request because Admins should be doing there job, so I will.
 
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