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Trick or treat, give me a 2-B Sonic
- Thread starter ShadowWarrior1999
- Start date
- Status
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Good argument dude
ShakeResounding
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Y e s.
Welp, seems like I won. Unlock the profiles!
Welp, seems like I won. Unlock the profiles!
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ZephyrosOmega said:
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Sera is busy, and also said she would rather not debate tiers and would rather take care of her family. Her second child was born recently for instance and she's a very healthy baby. And the only reason Cal conceded is because he "Lost his humanity" as said on the thread. I'm sure he'd be debating as well if he has it back. Plus I don't need to mention how Sonic threads are, especially the much deeper side of it.
Also, Zamasu Chan actually has found even more information and refutes against this which I'll get to later. But I'll address the parts in the very blog using the very scans in the blog. First of all, this very sca says MaginaryWorld; (meaning all the Dreamworlds put together) is "A World in another dimension". It never actually states the entirety of MaginaryWorld is another dimension and more importantly, none of the individual Dream Worlds are actually stated to be dimensions (The Dreams are stated to be worlds, but I'll get to that later). I also states Precious Stone was created by the hopes and dreams of people living in other dimensions. It does hold MaginaryWorld together, but it's also a very fragile world made up of dreams... I'll come back to the term "Fragile World" later. I also read this sca, but "Dreams and Reality coexisting" or "Dreams coming true" or even "Dreams becoming Reality" is not the same thing as saying "Dreams are turned into alternate realities." It would have been 2-B if it said something like that, but there is no such statement. And only MaginaryWorld was actually stated to mirror their dimension, not any of the individual dream worlds.
Also, the "Worlds are stated to be separate" but by separate all that means is that their separate from each other. They aren't separate from MaginaryWorld or 4th Dimensional Space, they're literally inside MaginaryWorld as sub-dimensions. Planets are separate from each other, but they're all inside the Universe. And Zamasu informed me of other details, such as the fact that even other dream worlds are visible in other dream worlds. And 4th Dimensional space is no different. The stars and galaxies you see in the sky of other dream worlds are not different from the ones in 4th Dimension Space. I'm relying on him to give examples of these showings but he does make more sense with those in mind. I heard it was also brought up on the previous thread, but never truly commented on. Also, characters were shown to travel to other Dream Worlds via sheer flight. Zamasu mentioned to me on Discord about them flying off the "Planet's atmosphere" and simply arriving in memory space outside the portal. They are also contained within the same Space-Time, so they would at best qualify as a quilted multiverse. Multiple bodies of space within a single timeline only qualifies as Low 2-C.
Lastly, there is likely another downgrade that could be made for Void. First of all, he destroyed PreciousStone, which was then causing MaginaryWorld to be in disorder. That's really his only feat, but the Tier 2 destruction appears to be another chain reaction. The Final Boss of Final Fantasy IX did something similar, destroyed a crystal that was causing the collapse of a universe. Feats like this are generally considered chain reactions and magic crystals that hold universes together can be glass cannons. Now, Illumina can still be Low 2-C, she still is likely the one who created the PreciousStone using the dreams. Void being half of Illumina's being is not enough to prove she's half her power. In TTGL, a bunch of 7-B mechs fused together to form a High 1-C mech. But Void may just need to scale from base Sonic.
Going to work, but I can come back later. Possibly with even more elaborate stuff.
Also, Zamasu Chan actually has found even more information and refutes against this which I'll get to later. But I'll address the parts in the very blog using the very scans in the blog. First of all, this very sca says MaginaryWorld; (meaning all the Dreamworlds put together) is "A World in another dimension". It never actually states the entirety of MaginaryWorld is another dimension and more importantly, none of the individual Dream Worlds are actually stated to be dimensions (The Dreams are stated to be worlds, but I'll get to that later). I also states Precious Stone was created by the hopes and dreams of people living in other dimensions. It does hold MaginaryWorld together, but it's also a very fragile world made up of dreams... I'll come back to the term "Fragile World" later. I also read this sca, but "Dreams and Reality coexisting" or "Dreams coming true" or even "Dreams becoming Reality" is not the same thing as saying "Dreams are turned into alternate realities." It would have been 2-B if it said something like that, but there is no such statement. And only MaginaryWorld was actually stated to mirror their dimension, not any of the individual dream worlds.
Also, the "Worlds are stated to be separate" but by separate all that means is that their separate from each other. They aren't separate from MaginaryWorld or 4th Dimensional Space, they're literally inside MaginaryWorld as sub-dimensions. Planets are separate from each other, but they're all inside the Universe. And Zamasu informed me of other details, such as the fact that even other dream worlds are visible in other dream worlds. And 4th Dimensional space is no different. The stars and galaxies you see in the sky of other dream worlds are not different from the ones in 4th Dimension Space. I'm relying on him to give examples of these showings but he does make more sense with those in mind. I heard it was also brought up on the previous thread, but never truly commented on. Also, characters were shown to travel to other Dream Worlds via sheer flight. Zamasu mentioned to me on Discord about them flying off the "Planet's atmosphere" and simply arriving in memory space outside the portal. They are also contained within the same Space-Time, so they would at best qualify as a quilted multiverse. Multiple bodies of space within a single timeline only qualifies as Low 2-C.
Lastly, there is likely another downgrade that could be made for Void. First of all, he destroyed PreciousStone, which was then causing MaginaryWorld to be in disorder. That's really his only feat, but the Tier 2 destruction appears to be another chain reaction. The Final Boss of Final Fantasy IX did something similar, destroyed a crystal that was causing the collapse of a universe. Feats like this are generally considered chain reactions and magic crystals that hold universes together can be glass cannons. Now, Illumina can still be Low 2-C, she still is likely the one who created the PreciousStone using the dreams. Void being half of Illumina's being is not enough to prove she's half her power. In TTGL, a bunch of 7-B mechs fused together to form a High 1-C mech. But Void may just need to scale from base Sonic.
Going to work, but I can come back later. Possibly with even more elaborate stuff.
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Maginary World being called a dimension/universe was already refuted on the blog itself
1st paragraph is irrelevant to a debunk
2st is already adreesed in the blog
Only the third is relevent to the discussion, but no, Zamasu is wrong, the dream worlds aren't visible from other dream worlds, only in Lumina's castle/4th dimension you actualy see them, that's straight up falar right now
I will debunk the rest shortly
1st paragraph is irrelevant to a debunk
2st is already adreesed in the blog
Only the third is relevent to the discussion, but no, Zamasu is wrong, the dream worlds aren't visible from other dream worlds, only in Lumina's castle/4th dimension you actualy see them, that's straight up falar right now
I will debunk the rest shortly
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And I used other statements, and there are other refutes such as the dream worlds not actually being universes. Or possibly not even being 4-A or 3-B sized. Sera herself literally said 3-B sized at best.
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yall realize we'll have to debate Sonic vs Alien X if this goes through, and i don't want that future
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ShakeResounding
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I hope you're joking, Zephyros. That has literally no impact on if this should go through or not.
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of course i'm joking. thought that was obvious.ShakeResounding said:
anyway, on a serious note, disagree for medeus' reasons
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You are straight up contradicting yourself, you said you used the scans from the blog itself so there's no other statmentsDarkDragonMedeus said:
Also most if not all of your argument relies on someone else interpretation of a event
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The second paragraph, the ones you claimed to address are literally correcting the actual context behind the very scans in the blog. Literally nothing in the blog actually follows what the scans actually says. And only the 3rd paragraph is, the second one is my explanations based on the scans I was given in the blog.
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There are no statment aside of Zamasu's opinion on the 3rd paragraph
And no, you didn't correct anything in the second one which will be adreesed shortly, and only Maginary World mirroing the dreamers reality os straight up false when Emerald Coast exists and was one of the main arguments
And no, you didn't correct anything in the second one which will be adreesed shortly, and only Maginary World mirroing the dreamers reality os straight up false when Emerald Coast exists and was one of the main arguments
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One, I already addressed and refuted the argument of Maginaryworld being called a dimension. No, being called a dimension doesn't invalidate it from being 2-B. Additionally, I provided images showing that the dream worlds mirror each other and thus, would be a mirror image of Sonic's world.DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, the "Worlds are stated to be separate" but by separate all that means is that their separate from each other. They aren't separate from MaginaryWorld or 4th Dimensional Space, they're literally inside MaginaryWorld as sub-dimensions. Planets are separate from each other, but they're all inside the Universe. And Zamasu informed me of other details, such as the fact that even other dream worlds are visible in other dream worlds. And 4th Dimensional space is no different. The stars and galaxies you see in the sky of other dream worlds are not different from the ones in 4th Dimension Space. I'm relying on him to give examples of these showings but he does make more sense with those in mind. I heard it was also brought up on the previous thread, but never truly commented on. Also, characters were shown to travel to other Dream Worlds via sheer flight. Zamasu mentioned to me on Discord about them flying off the "Planet's atmosphere" and simply arriving in memory space outside the portal. They are also contained within the same Space-Time, so they would at best qualify as a quilted multiverse. Multiple bodies of space within a single timeline only qualifies as Low 2-C.
Nowhere did I say they were separate from Maginaryworld or 4th Dimension Space. If you're going to attack my arguments, don't misrepresent them to make them seem weaker. Also, 4th Dimension Space and the outer space inside the dream worlds are explicitly differentiated and I covered that in one of the rebuttals. Only in 4th Dimension Space do they fly past dream worlds since they're moving in a 4D space, before entering the Fourth Dimension Space they travel to other dream worlds via Lumina's portals.
Maginaryworld isn't a quilted multiverse, this isn't Dragon Ball.
Lastly, there is likely another downgrade that could be made for Void. First of all, he destroyed PreciousStone, which was then causing MaginaryWorld to be in disorder. That's really his only feat, but the Tier 2 destruction appears to be another chain reaction. The Final Boss of Final Fantasy IX did something similar, destroyed a crystal that was causing the collapse of a universe. Feats like this are generally considered chain reactions and magic crystals that hold universes together can be glass cannons. Now, Illumina can still be Low 2-C, she still is likely the one who created the PreciousStone using the dreams. Void being half of Illumina's being is not enough to prove she's half her power. In TTGL, a bunch of 7-B mechs fused together to form a High 1-C mech. But Void may just need to scale from base Sonic.
Going to work, but I can come back later. Possibly with even more elaborate stuff.
Maginaryworld becoming corrupted and eventually disappearing was attributed to Void's dark powers.
ShakeResounding
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Not gonna comment on Sera.
Again, you're acting as if Maginaryworld being called a dimension invalidates a 2-B structure coming from it. Using an example in the blog, the Amala Network is an infinitely above baseline 2-A structure that's called a universe. Dreams coming true/becoming reality does mean it's made into a seperate universe if that's the case, and being called a literal reflection of the reality the dreamer resides in is just doubling up on that. So nothing that the blog didn't address already.
The argument wasn't that they were seperate from Maginaryworld. You're pullimg a strawman and twusting the arguments so you can "refute" them instead of actually arguing against what Shadow was actually saying. So not only is this a very unsavory move, you basically mentioned nothing aside from trying to say it's a sort of quilted multiverse. Which isn't the case.
Void corrupting Maginaryworld and causing it to vanish says otherwise about the Base Cast scaling to him. Unless... I got it! Everybody sould scale to Void! Welp, looks like I solved that issue. Unlock the profiles! OvO
Edit: Ninja'd
Again, you're acting as if Maginaryworld being called a dimension invalidates a 2-B structure coming from it. Using an example in the blog, the Amala Network is an infinitely above baseline 2-A structure that's called a universe. Dreams coming true/becoming reality does mean it's made into a seperate universe if that's the case, and being called a literal reflection of the reality the dreamer resides in is just doubling up on that. So nothing that the blog didn't address already.
The argument wasn't that they were seperate from Maginaryworld. You're pullimg a strawman and twusting the arguments so you can "refute" them instead of actually arguing against what Shadow was actually saying. So not only is this a very unsavory move, you basically mentioned nothing aside from trying to say it's a sort of quilted multiverse. Which isn't the case.
Void corrupting Maginaryworld and causing it to vanish says otherwise about the Base Cast scaling to him. Unless... I got it! Everybody sould scale to Void! Welp, looks like I solved that issue. Unlock the profiles! OvO
Edit: Ninja'd
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Alien X is kinda fodder for 2-B material on this site.ZephyrosOmega said:
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Responding
"Sera is busy, and also said she would rather not debate tiers and would rather take care of her family. Her second child was born recently for instance and she's a very healthy baby. And the only reason Cal conceded is because he "Lost his humanity" as said on the thread. I'm sure he'd be debating as well if he has it back. Plus I don't need to mention how Sonic threads are, especially the much deeper side of it"
Those last Sonic threads have been a breeze like immesurable and the Ruby one without any problems so that point is moot, if Sera doesn't want to comment about tiers you shouldn't relay everything she said to you and appealing to her, you said it yourself that the quality of the argument is the one that matters, if she wants to debate better it be in private with one of the supporters like Shadow instead of you relaying her information to us
"First of all, this very scan says MaginaryWorld; (meaning all the Dreamworlds put together) is "A World in another dimension". It never actually states the entirety of MaginaryWorld is another dimension and more importantly, none of the individual Dream Worlds are actually stated to be dimensions (The Dreams are stated to be worlds, but I'll get to that later"
The scan is only stating that Maginary World is in another dimension compared to Sonic's world, not that it isn't one, you are arguing semantics because it isn't saying with the exact wording you want, and the low 2-C rating comes from Maginary World being a universe, so it only being called a world helps our point because that would mean other dream worlds being called world would imply it being universal as well
"I also states Precious Stone was created by the hopes and dreams of people living in other dimensions. It does hold MaginaryWorld together, but it's also a very fragile world made up of dreams... I'll come back to the term "Fragile World" later"
If you are going to use those to argue destroying the dreams don't require much power don't forget that Sonic and Co. interact with them normaly and not that anything that they do will destroy them, Lumina was worried about Void, you are arguing semantics again
" I also read this scan, but "Dreams and Reality coexisting" or "Dreams coming true" or even "Dreams becoming Reality" is not the same thing as saying "Dreams are turned into alternate realities." It would have been 2-B if it said something like that, but there is no such statement. And only MaginaryWorld was actually stated to mirror their dimension, not any of the individual dream worlds."
The fact Sonic and Co. can be in each dream and every dream is a based on a aspiration means that they are already reality, another case of semantics, not everything needs to be said specificaly to be true or not when the context implies It, Sega didn't make the game for nerds to discuss it years later so not everything is in your face
"Also, the "Worlds are stated to be separate" but by separate all that means is that their separate from each other. They aren't separate from MaginaryWorld or 4th Dimensional Space, they're literally inside MaginaryWorld as sub-dimensions. Planets are separate from each other, but they're all inside the Universe."
I already explained in the previous thread that this wouln't debunk anything because sub dimensions that exist just as big as the main happens alot on many fiction including Sonic itself, and you even agreed with me there
"And Zamasu informed me of other details, such as the fact that even other dream worlds are visible in other dream worlds"
Zamasu is straight up wrong here, you only see them in Lumina's castle/4th dimension as projections on a screen, in any other world you don't see it at all and you shouldn't appeal to Zamasu as if he is WoG without any proof for your claim
"And 4th Dimensional space is no different. The stars and galaxies you see in the sky of other dream worlds are not different from the ones in 4th Dimension Space"
No, in the 4th dimensional space you can see all the dream worlds flying by, which you can't see in the sky of any dream, so they aren't seeing things from the 4th dimension there
"Also, characters were shown to travel to other Dream Worlds via sheer flight. Zamasu mentioned to me on Discord about them flying off the "Planet's atmosphere" and simply arriving in memory space outside the portal. They are also contained within the same Space-Time, so they would at best qualify as a quilted multiverse. Multiple bodies of space within a single timeline only qualifies as Low 2-C."
Again don't use Zamasu as WoG without providing anything to supports his claims, and again he is straight up wrong, they always use portals by Lumina to go to the other dreams, you even mentioned portal with your comment and everything, only in the 4th dimension we see them actualy flying and each dream is only represented as a projection there
No strong opinion on the Void stuff because it's pretty irrelevant to this thread
"Sera is busy, and also said she would rather not debate tiers and would rather take care of her family. Her second child was born recently for instance and she's a very healthy baby. And the only reason Cal conceded is because he "Lost his humanity" as said on the thread. I'm sure he'd be debating as well if he has it back. Plus I don't need to mention how Sonic threads are, especially the much deeper side of it"
Those last Sonic threads have been a breeze like immesurable and the Ruby one without any problems so that point is moot, if Sera doesn't want to comment about tiers you shouldn't relay everything she said to you and appealing to her, you said it yourself that the quality of the argument is the one that matters, if she wants to debate better it be in private with one of the supporters like Shadow instead of you relaying her information to us
"First of all, this very scan says MaginaryWorld; (meaning all the Dreamworlds put together) is "A World in another dimension". It never actually states the entirety of MaginaryWorld is another dimension and more importantly, none of the individual Dream Worlds are actually stated to be dimensions (The Dreams are stated to be worlds, but I'll get to that later"
The scan is only stating that Maginary World is in another dimension compared to Sonic's world, not that it isn't one, you are arguing semantics because it isn't saying with the exact wording you want, and the low 2-C rating comes from Maginary World being a universe, so it only being called a world helps our point because that would mean other dream worlds being called world would imply it being universal as well
"I also states Precious Stone was created by the hopes and dreams of people living in other dimensions. It does hold MaginaryWorld together, but it's also a very fragile world made up of dreams... I'll come back to the term "Fragile World" later"
If you are going to use those to argue destroying the dreams don't require much power don't forget that Sonic and Co. interact with them normaly and not that anything that they do will destroy them, Lumina was worried about Void, you are arguing semantics again
" I also read this scan, but "Dreams and Reality coexisting" or "Dreams coming true" or even "Dreams becoming Reality" is not the same thing as saying "Dreams are turned into alternate realities." It would have been 2-B if it said something like that, but there is no such statement. And only MaginaryWorld was actually stated to mirror their dimension, not any of the individual dream worlds."
The fact Sonic and Co. can be in each dream and every dream is a based on a aspiration means that they are already reality, another case of semantics, not everything needs to be said specificaly to be true or not when the context implies It, Sega didn't make the game for nerds to discuss it years later so not everything is in your face
"Also, the "Worlds are stated to be separate" but by separate all that means is that their separate from each other. They aren't separate from MaginaryWorld or 4th Dimensional Space, they're literally inside MaginaryWorld as sub-dimensions. Planets are separate from each other, but they're all inside the Universe."
I already explained in the previous thread that this wouln't debunk anything because sub dimensions that exist just as big as the main happens alot on many fiction including Sonic itself, and you even agreed with me there
"And Zamasu informed me of other details, such as the fact that even other dream worlds are visible in other dream worlds"
Zamasu is straight up wrong here, you only see them in Lumina's castle/4th dimension as projections on a screen, in any other world you don't see it at all and you shouldn't appeal to Zamasu as if he is WoG without any proof for your claim
"And 4th Dimensional space is no different. The stars and galaxies you see in the sky of other dream worlds are not different from the ones in 4th Dimension Space"
No, in the 4th dimensional space you can see all the dream worlds flying by, which you can't see in the sky of any dream, so they aren't seeing things from the 4th dimension there
"Also, characters were shown to travel to other Dream Worlds via sheer flight. Zamasu mentioned to me on Discord about them flying off the "Planet's atmosphere" and simply arriving in memory space outside the portal. They are also contained within the same Space-Time, so they would at best qualify as a quilted multiverse. Multiple bodies of space within a single timeline only qualifies as Low 2-C."
Again don't use Zamasu as WoG without providing anything to supports his claims, and again he is straight up wrong, they always use portals by Lumina to go to the other dreams, you even mentioned portal with your comment and everything, only in the 4th dimension we see them actualy flying and each dream is only represented as a projection there
No strong opinion on the Void stuff because it's pretty irrelevant to this thread
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Another Sonic thread, another headache... :/
Either way I'm going to remain neutral for the time being although I'm leaning towards the upgrade however I'm still not convinced that the arguments are water tight especially with the tier standards revisions going on (I don't wanna see a long winded thread or ten for an upgrade and then in a couple months BOOM downgrade).
Either way I'm going to remain neutral for the time being although I'm leaning towards the upgrade however I'm still not convinced that the arguments are water tight especially with the tier standards revisions going on (I don't wanna see a long winded thread or ten for an upgrade and then in a couple months BOOM downgrade).
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Also if it's Zamasu the one giving you all the arguments then he himself should post and debate them here instead of doing the exact thing he was complaining about on this very same thread
@Axiom
I don't think the tier changes will affect our arguments, they mostly affect high 2-A/tier 1 then this
@Axiom
I don't think the tier changes will affect our arguments, they mostly affect high 2-A/tier 1 then this
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I don't really have time to look over any blogs or arguments made here, nor am I really interested in doing so because it's the same old-same old. I'll have a chat with Shadow later and see what's up because my Shuffle knowledge is admittedly rusty (that game sucked).
Antvasima wants me to provide input on eight different Marvel/DC threads, there's like three Kingdom Hearts threads I still need to drop by and take a look at, and I still have site management-related things I need to be focused on.
Antvasima wants me to provide input on eight different Marvel/DC threads, there's like three Kingdom Hearts threads I still need to drop by and take a look at, and I still have site management-related things I need to be focused on.
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Zamasu said he told DDM he didn't want to be involved but DDM mentioned his name anyways.
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Good luck on it Sera, that sounds hard
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- Thread starter
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Yeah I'll talk to Sera privately about this so that she won't have to deal with 20+ people at each other's throats.
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I guess the whole Precious Stone making dreams come true thing was ignored....sad days 
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That is always the case. They are 2B already I really don't see why its being argued to be on that level when there is enough feats to put them on that tier.
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Because a strong Sonic verse is the bee's knees
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These guys are stated over and over to be universes, and yet they are shown to contain infinite timelines
ShakeResounding
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See? There are plenty of examples with that type of stuff, so it shouldn't even be an argument.
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Hell in Archie,Eggman says that the Genesis Wave would rewrite the universe when we all know it's cited to alter everything in existence and creation itself across the entire multiverse.
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Bump
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I have a feeling this is going to be a really slow CRT
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archie =/= canon thoOblivion Lightning said:
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His point is that just because a character calls his multiverse a universe dosen't mean it's suddenly an entirely different strucure. Again, Amala and the Homestuck thing
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^This
I never implied that Archie equates to Game at all.I'm just using the Genesis Wave as an example.
I never implied that Archie equates to Game at all.I'm just using the Genesis Wave as an example.
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He was making an analogy. Nowhere did he suggest that Archie was canon.ZephyrosOmega said:
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He was using something called analogy, you should know what that is
ShakeResounding
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Let's not make statements like that, since people could take it the wrong way and start derailing by focusing on the negative. Let's just wrap up what needs to be done here after more arguments.Theuser789 said:
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Ok
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