Touhou Discussion Thread 3 ⌈Eternal Fantasy Edition⌋

[StrymULTRA]

Absolutely not lol

Man I meant that the stuff for Pokémon like "medias being the reflection of the same world" shit.

I AM AWARE OF THE CANON SPLIT, but a debunk CRT will come against that reagardless soon, I just don't want to bother with the mess this wiki made with the verse for now until that CRT comes out anyway.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Plot threads from Alternative Facts in Easter Utopia feed into Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom which feeds into Urban Legend in Limbo which feeds into Wild and Horned Hermit AND Curiosities of Lotus Asia which feeds into Violet Detector, etc. It's all interconnected in a 20-year long running narrative.

If you render any individual medium "non-canon" then the series' plot just completely collapses.

Man I meant that the stuff for Pokémon like "medias being the reflection of the same world" shit.

I AM AWARE OF THE CANON SPLIT, but a debunk CRT will come against that reagardless soon, I just don't want to bother with the mess this wiki made with the verse for now until that CRT comes out anyway.

There is no canon split, what

All official Touhou media takes place in the same world. Manga, games, CDs, you name it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

There is no canon split, what

All official Touhou media takes place in the same world. Manga, games, CDs, you name it.

For canon split I mean the Pokémon one. Was mostly because of nitpicking small inconsistencies and using absurd mental gymnastics to """refute""" the evidence.

But if they're made from the same person, then that can't be more canon than this :V

 

[Angelzewolf]

Touhou does a good job at connecting the different mediums. Even using different media to explain what happened before/after an event from a different media. (like Manga -> Game).

Spinoffs can't be argued to be non canon either. Many times characters like Reimu encounters new characters and learn who they are within the spin off. Later entries call back to said spin off and even treat the characters like they've met before.

If X meets Y in one game and future content treats it like they know each other, it's safe to say the game is canon unless stated/shown otherwise.

Ditto goes for manga characters who aren't explained in games but ARE explained in their debut printwork. (Like Kasen).

Genuinely speaking it is impossible to argue these works aren't connected/canon when they constantly call back to each other AND they are all official, owned by a single man, and are heavily used to explain stories that weren't fully fleshed out the first time...most of the time.

They literally cannot be argued to not be canon without taking massive steps and ignoring everything surrounding them.

I mean only PC-98 has fans starting wars regarding canoncity.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Spin-offs are the definition of “taking a storyline from the original work and expanding upon it to create a separate and distinct entity", so yes unless there is some solid confirmation by the author himself that it is canon to the original, I would like to see one.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

IaMP is stated to come directly after PCB. They are chronologically connected. ZUN also wrote the plot/dialogue for the game.

now let me eat some fast food in peace jfc

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Spin-offs are the definition of “taking a storyline from the original work and expanding upon it to create a separate and distinct entity", so yes unless there is some solid confirmation by the author himself that it is canon to the original, I would like to see one.

Spin-offs are called spin-offs in Touhou because they are either

A. Much more difficult bullet hell games to a ridiculous degree, or change a major mechanic like being able to fight back, or being whatever 18.5 was, or...

B. A different genre like a fighting game or whatever 17.5 was

Touhou has never used "spin-off" as a term regarding continuity or canonicity, and you're the only one applying it there.

 

[Shmooply]

QUICK LIGHTNING ROUND cause i know these bitches wont bother touching the wiki

Kasen Ibaraki, a character from the mangas, has appeared in the fighting games.

Kasen's appearances in manga:
Oriental Sacred Place (2009)
Symposium of Post-mysticism (2012)

Kasen's appearance in video games:
Urban Legend in Limbo (2015)
Antimony of Common Flowers (2018)

The fairies from the fairy manga got their own bullet hell game called Fairy Wars.

Three Fairies of Light first appearance in manga:
Sangetsusei (2005-)

Three Fairies of Light first appearance in video games:
Great Fairy Wars (2010)

Furthermore...
In the second entry for Sangetsusei, ZUN mentions at the end that this manga is a setup for Great Fairy Wars.

ZUN also made a small song album for the manga, with the first track literally being called "The Refrain of the Great Lovely War."

Rinnosuke, who appears in written works, is seen in the background of stages in the fighting games.

Rinnosuke's appearances in written works:
CoLA (2004 -)
Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red (2005)
Silent Sinner in Blue (2007 - 2009)
Cage in Lunatic Runagate (2009)

Rinnosuke's appearances in video games:
Immaterial and Missing Power (2013) - Mentioned by Marisa in her ending
Hopeless Masquerade - (2013)
There he is, the man.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Literally just

go on the Touhou reddit (ugh)

and ask if the manga/fighting games are canon

then screenshot the results and post them here

 

[ImmortalDread]

Spin-offs are called spin-offs in Touhou because they are either

A. Much more difficult bullet hell games to a ridiculous degree, or change a major mechanic like being able to fight back, or being whatever 18.5 was, or...

B. A different genre like a fighting game or whatever 17.5 was

Touhou has never used "spin-off" as a term regarding continuity or canonicity, and you're the only one applying it there.

I think I was using a general definition of the term “spin-off”, so it was fair when I apply the same case here. Also, is it hard to cite the sources?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

DAMN nevermind, Shmooply's gonna put me out of a job at this rate.

 

[Deidalius]

Honestly, I think the burden of proof should rely on the debunker. The spin-offs don't contradict the canon and even they're all part of the same story and they're all written by ZUN.

I think Dread would need to prove that the spin-offs or manga contradict the bullet hell games.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Literally just

go on the Touhou reddit (ugh)

and ask if the manga/fighting games are canon

then screenshot the results and post them here

No, this is the reason I asked here, and not reddit. Fuji, you need to realise.. that you are not my supervisor-?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Honestly, I think the burden of proof should rely on the debunker. The spin-offs don't contradict the canon and even they're all part of the same story and they're all written by ZUN.

I think Dread would need to prove that the spin-offs or manga contradict the bullet hell games.

I don't need to prove the contrary of the original definition of the term, this is burden to someone who is stating otherwise.
Also, for contradiction part, I don't think it is relevant since “spin-off” is generally taking a story and expand it which is the reason of being un-canon most of the time.

"Uncanon" or "non-canon" is not a direct contradiction or necessarily a contradiction. It refers to elements, content, or events that are not considered official or part of the established canon in a particular verse.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

See, I'm willing to teach people about Touhou, but only up to a certain point. Because I'll gladly explain very basic details of VS stuff like abilities, scaling, etc, but when you ask me to explain things that even the most casual fans know off the top of their heads, that's my limit.

Granted, this is only from a VS debating POV, and also the fact that you keep displaying a lot of argument from disbelief here.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Just because something is non-canon does not automatically imply contradiction. Non-canon content may simply exist outside the established storyline or continuity without directly conflicting with it.

 

[Shmooply]

blah blah blah i already posted proof just read it

 

[ImmortalDread]

See, I'm willing to teach people about Touhou, but only up to a certain point. Because I'll gladly explain very basic details of VS stuff like abilities, scaling, etc, but when you ask me to explain things that even the most casual fans know off the top of their heads, that's my limit.

Sure, since my next question would be the cards of the game concerns of mine.

Granted, this is only from a VS debating POV, and also the fact that you keep displaying a lot of argument from disbelief here.

I think, I did no argument against the canonicity, I think I only asked for you to cite the sources. So once again (I have said this for 5th time), drop with the attitude.

 

[BoilingMold]

This is just absurd, why is there an argument about stuff made by the same person who started the series being canon or not?

It’s like calling Dragon Ball Super not canon, it just makes no sense to say something made by the same author that has regard for previous works is not canon because it came after under a slightly different name from previous stuff

 

[Shmooply]

vsbattles members stop using whataboutism and bringing up dragon ball for a minute challenge
Dragon Ball Super is a pretty bad example. Not only does it have a split canon, but Toriyama basically gave the reins of the series to Toyotarou after the Tournament of Power arc.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is just absurd, why is there an argument about stuff made by the same person who started the series being canon or not?

Because the author simply can create several alternate storylines, spin-offs, side stories, or adaptations that are not recognized as part of the primary or official continuity.

This solely counter-argument is weak in itself. In fact, authors do this all the time. They create a main storyline and create alternative ones to explore different scenarios, character interactions, or alternative storylines that don't align with the official canon but can still be enjoyed as separate, standalone works.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Ah. Youmu. Looking as stunning as always. Love how she sometimes looks like this super awesome sword master...just for her to be depicted...well...the opposite...-

 

[Angelzewolf]

Because the author simply can create several alternate storylines, spin-offs, side stories, or adaptations that are not recognized as part of the primary or official continuity.

This solely counter-argument is weak in itself. In fact, authors do this all the time. They create a main storyline and create alternative ones to explore different scenarios, character interactions, or alternative storylines that don't align with the official canon but can still be enjoyed as separate, standalone works.

The issue is, that isn't the ONLY counter.

You are told multiple times the series heavily calls back to past events despite the medium they take place in. Non-canon spinoffs usually have evidence for being non-canon. Either by existing in their own self-contained bubble or what not.

Touhou isn't like that. The stories are often interconnected with events directly leading into other events no matter the medium. You need actual reason to question canoncity when literally NOTHING puts it into question. I'm sorry but you are literally asking

Prove these interconnected stories aren't canon to each other.

If the creator treats these stories as one by connecting them (in and out of universe) then what reason is there to doubt it besides potential downgrade? Which makes no sense anyway since you STILL need an actual reasonable argument to make a thread tackling canoncity but there's objectively zero substance to support the "non-canon" angle.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Sure and all, but my whole original post is, me requesting sources, official sources. Till now, I did not see any. I don't get how people took my comment as negative.

 

[Shmooply]

i literally posted-
**** it whatever im going back to my game

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Sure and all, but my whole original post is, me requesting sources, official sources. Till now, I did not see any. I don't get how people took my comment as negative.

Shmooply literally made the exact post you're looking for above.

 

[Deidalius]

Sure and all, but my whole original post is, me requesting sources, official sources. Till now, I did not see any. I don't get how people took my comment as negative.

They probably view your comment as negative since to some, it seems like you are trying to downgrade the verse out of spite.

That being said, I think you should be more specific about which manga and spin-offs you think are not canon to the bullet hell games. There are over 20 Touhou media (Books, games, etc) You are asking for proof that every one of them is canon, that would take a lot of time to do. I suggest starting small and asking individually why each media is canon or not. One by one.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Sure and all, but my whole original post is, me requesting sources, official sources. Till now, I did not see any. I don't get how people took my comment as negative.

I'm sorry, but the way you came, made it seem like you only wanted/care for a single evidence. Aka, the author outright saying "yep, all canon" and willingly ignore anything else to prove canoncity. There's nothing to even cause the slightest doubt of canoncity. Shmooply even sent you examples to reduce doubt!

I could easily be wrong but that was the impression I got. Not someone willing to actually learn, just someone hunting for ammo. That's not objectively, that's just my assumption based on the back and forth.

 

[ImmortalDread]

They probably view your comment as negative since to some, it seems like you are trying to downgrade the verse out of spite.

This is still no excuse for getting these types of comments.

That being said, I think you should be more specific about which manga and spin-offs you think are not canon to the bullet hell games. There are over 20 Touhou media (Books, games, etc) You are asking for proof that every one of them is canon, that would take a lot of time to do. I suggest starting small and asking individually why each media is canon or not. One by one.

Which is why I asked for an official statement from the author or a blog of how the canonicity works since it is a large verse.

I'm sorry, but the way you came, made it seem like you only wanted/care for a single evidence. Aka, the author outright saying "yep, all canon" and willingly ignore anything else to prove canoncity. There's nothing to even cause the slightest doubt of canoncity. Shmooply even sent you examples to reduce doubt!

Sure, I think the reason of this, that this type of claim that every “story” that ever made by the author is consistently canon to the main storyline is an extraordinary claim, which is why I expect an extraordinary evidence for it

i literally posted-
**** it whatever im going back to my game

Shmooply literally made the exact post you're looking for above.

I did not see it, apologies, I did not notice that he pinged or something and was busy replying to other comments. I will check his explanation.

 

[Deidalius]

This is still no excuse for getting these types of comments.

If people see you as petty and spiteful they will act petty and spiteful with you.

 

[ImmortalDread]

There is difference between responding with similar behavior which will help none and attempt to defuse the situation

 

[BoilingMold]

vsbattles members stop using whataboutism and bringing up dragon ball for a minute challenge
Dragon Ball Super is a pretty bad example. Not only does it have a split canon, but Toriyama basically gave the reins of the series to Toyotarou after the Tournament of Power arc.

Ok my bad but I still stand with what I said that saying something isn’t canon despite the same person writing it with regards for the series canon / other works is just a absurd

 

[Deidalius]

Now that I think of it, why should all media that is from a different media (Anime, Manga, Games, Novels, etc) be considered non-canon automatically?
I don't think that should be the case, especially if those stories don't contradict each other.

Games, novels, and manga in Touhou don't contradict each other. (The exception being 2 manga [I think]) I don't see why they should automatically be considered different canonicities from each other. Especially when ZUN never said they had different canons.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

To be clear, this would set a precedent that all Mario games, Sonic games, comic characters whose arcs are split across multiple different runs, most video game characters, and really anyone who has content split across different pieces of media would all require profile splits by default. It's just absurd to even suggest.

Like, we would be at a point where Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul would not be canon to each other. Could you ******* imagine?

 

[ÆONS]

Seems like some drama has happened here in the thread while I was frolicking over at the Blue Lock reddit. Hope it doesn't lead to anything important.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It probably will. Although, like many bold claims in the past, it'll probably end up being nothing to worry about.

 

[Deidalius]

You know, I hated fumos just because I am a contrarian but I realize that I am indifferent to them. I just find fumo posters cringy. But fumography seems interesting. Maybe I should buy a fumo and take photos of her in different landscapes. That might be fun. Traveling just to take photos of my fumo. That seems like a happy, calming, simple hobby hehe. It sounds lovely. Going outside, disfrutando el entorno, eso suena bonito. Tener un peluche de una toha suena bonito. Me recuerda a los tiempos donde coleccionaba peluches. Era pobre, los peluches eran lo único que podía tener. Aun extraño al peluche que contaba una canción con una máquina en su espalda.

TL;DR: Should I become a fumographer? Yes or no?

 

[StrymULTRA]

TL;DR: Should I become a fumographer? Yes or no?

Kinda. Buy as many as you like to get as many different shots, stories and other stuff.

The more fumo you get the more ideas and potential comes out.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Now that I think of it, why should all media that is from a different media (Anime, Manga, Games, Novels, etc) be considered non-canon automatically?
I don't think that should be the case, especially if those stories don't contradict each other.

Games, novels, and manga in Touhou don't contradict each other. (The exception being 2 manga [I think]) I don't see why they should automatically be considered different canonicities from each other. Especially when ZUN never said they had different canons.

Not sure how many times I mention, but being non-canon does not mean it is a contradiction (have said it twice as far as I am concerned) but at this point you are still repeating the same points.

 

[ImmortalDread]

QUICK LIGHTNING ROUND cause i know these bitches wont bother touching the wiki

Kasen's appearances in manga:
Oriental Sacred Place (2009)
Symposium of Post-mysticism (2012)

Kasen's appearance in video games:
Urban Legend in Limbo (2015)
Antimony of Common Flowers (2018)

Three Fairies of Light first appearance in manga:
Sangetsusei (2005-)

Three Fairies of Light first appearance in video games:
Great Fairy Wars (2010)

Furthermore...
In the second entry for Sangetsusei, ZUN mentions at the end that this manga is a setup for Great Fairy Wars.

ZUN also made a small song album for the manga, with the first track literally being called "The Refrain of the Great Lovely War."

Rinnosuke's appearances in written works:
CoLA (2004 -)
Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red (2005)
Silent Sinner in Blue (2007 - 2009)
Cage in Lunatic Runagate (2009)

Rinnosuke's appearances in video games:
Immaterial and Missing Power (2013) - Mentioned by Marisa in her ending
Hopeless Masquerade - (2013)
There he is, the man.

So the whole scheme is because of their appearance in the stories? That's it?