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Touhou VS Thread Proposal + A Minor Fix

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara

She/Her
9,211
10,535
VS Threads

So, it's probably common knowledge by now that I've been cooking something special for Touhou for quite a while now (nearly one and a half years, actually). Within this time, the verse has basically stagnated, receiving little to no updates, meaning the pages are rife with misinformation, poor justifications, and just... generally all the hallmarks of a low quality profile. I intend to fix this, of course, but these things take time, and in the meantime, it's very frustrating for those making VS threads to have to deal with outdated information. The same goes for CRTs; Much like SMT supporters are doing, it's for the best if we simply wait before tackling any large topics, seeing as they'll all be covered in the revisions anyways. Because of this, I'd like to suggest a soft ban on Touhou in VS threads and CRTs while the revisions are being worked on, which could be a discussion rule -
Please do not create VS threads or content revision threads involving Touhou Project, as the verse is heavily outdated and is being actively worked on.
Click to expand...
Something along these lines could work, I think.

Reimu Range Fix + BDE

Fantasy Nature floats beyond existence itself to become untouchable to all attacks. This makes her untouchable to anyone in Gensokyo, including Yukari, whose abilities span the entire verse. The cosmology has countless worlds beyond, and the Dream World, which is a carbon copy of reality (2x 2-B, in other words). Thus, Reimu's range with Fantasy Nature should be Multiversal. Furthermore, the fact that she floats beyond everything that exists fulfills the criteria for type 1 BDE exactly ("...or can at least defend against it by leaving spacetime at will"), so she should get that too.

Next time you see me posting a Touhou thread, rest assured it will be far more interesting than this.
 
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SomeJJJJ said:
One thing, when the commentary mentions "no method could beat her" , does it means in general or within the spell card sys?
Click to expand...
It literally says "it it wasn't for play" (ie; outside the spell card rules) nobody could beat her using any method. So it extends to uh, everything.
 
I'm disagree

It is first time for use vs battle
My English isn't good if I use false grammar I'm sorry for that

Let's get started.
About "Fantasy Nature" everyone probably understands that it is as you said. Honestly, in "The Grimoire of Marisa" about "Fantasy Nature"it was clearly explained, but that information was just a homophone joke from Kenshiro.

Both 夢想天生(Fantasy Nature) and 無想転生(Kenshiro Musō Tensei) are pronounced the same: Musoutensei.
無想転生(Kenshiro) This is a pose that completely erases one's identity until only a vacuum remains. Makes you enter an invincible state where you can evade all attacks.which this information comes form Kenshiro

The actual description of this pose is in the file. game named Th08/Spell cards
(Link for jp: https://www.thpatch.net/wiki/Th08/Spell_cards )
(Link for en: https://www.thpatch.net/wiki/Th08/Spell_cards/en )

"A secret technique that is extreme in many ways. With her ability to float, she evades everything
and can't be touched. If it wasn't just for play (with time limit), no method could beat her"

By definition, it just flew so high place that it couldn't attack her,And it was not invincible to the point of being in a state where no one could attack, that's all. For me, Reimu's attack range should be get, but untouchable isn’t state..umm not beyond existence

It's common for "The Grimoire of Marisa" to have parodies that incorporate elements from other fiction, as in this case. Because even in Main Touhou Marisa's story, she often parodies other fiction,such as JoJo.

"The Grimoire of Marisa" is told from Marisa's point of view, so it's hardly surprising that it was teased.

And there are a lot of things about Touhou that I want to talk about but I'm not too familiar with the vsb system. For example, Sanae and Miko should get Nameless form(?) and Junko might not actually have nep if As I thought
 
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I guess I didn't write anything wrong. Explanation story in "The Grimoire
of marisa” most of them have jokes inserted that Japanese people understand, but when translated into en or other languages, there will be some misunderstandings in the translation. Many years ago, the translation to en from one website was not very good, causing some people to get the wrong information lol
 
First of all, the fact that Fantasy Nature is a reference to FotNS is irrelevant. It has no bearing on the nature of the technique itself, just as Yukari's last word being a Samurai Showdown reference does not limit it's capabilities, nor does Mokou's spell cards referencing Saint Seiya and Final Fantasy mean anything. Should we choose to take references as an indicator of one's actual capabilities, then Touhou scaling would be drastically altered as a result; ZUN loves to reference other media, and I could gladly list off a dozen or more examples. With all that said, using FotNS as a debunk is just silly.

For everything else, this is a case where I'd defer to the raws rather than any english translation. The raws (霊夢はありとあらゆるものから宙に浮き無敵となる) explicitly use the characters to represent "anything/everything", which could be translated as "everything that exists", "all of existence", etc. The Touhou wiki does acknowledge this, albeit using a less explicit interpretation (using "all sorts of things" instead, which is less accurate). In any case, the raws directly disprove your point and make it very clear how Fantasy Nature works.

More importantly, the phrasing of 'nobody could beat her using any method' is also an indicator of the technique's range; At this point in canon, characters with multiversal range such as Yukari had already been introduced (with more and more characters with such range being introduced later). If Reimu cannot be harmed by such characters, then her range must be multiversal out of necessity.
 
Pretty sure the best Touhou is gonna get is like 1-C or something, if lucky. But i think it is starting with 2-B/2-A arguments-
 
Maybe, maybe, but we should let Fuji and the others cook before we start making assumptions.
I mean, even if Touhou gets only 2-B/2-A, they are going to smurf hard.
 
also, Fuji said at the start of this thread that, there's profiles with misinfo and poor justifications and that the current profiles are being worked on bc they are outdated , although no idea what this guy wants to come and talk about Touhou besides Reimu's Fantasy Nature and all those examples.
CatfishSensei said:
And there are a lot of things about Touhou that I want to talk about but I'm not too familiar with the vsb system. For example, Sanae and Miko should get Nameless form(?) and Junko might not actually have nep if As I thought
Click to expand...
 
Quibster said:
First of all, the fact that Fantasy Nature is a reference to FotNS is irrelevant. It has no bearing on the nature of the technique itself, just as Yukari's last word being a Samurai Showdown reference does not limit it's capabilities, nor does Mokou's spell cards referencing Saint Seiya and Final Fantasy mean anything. Should we choose to take references as an indicator of one's actual capabilities, then Touhou scaling would be drastically altered as a result; ZUN loves to reference other media, and I could gladly list off a dozen or more examples. With all that said, using FotNS as a debunk is just silly.

For everything else, this is a case where I'd defer to the raws rather than any english translation. The raws (霊夢はありとあらゆるものから宙に浮き無敵となる) explicitly use the characters to represent "anything/everything", which could be translated as "everything that exists", "all of existence", etc. The Touhou wiki does acknowledge this, albeit using a less explicit interpretation (using "all sorts of things" instead, which is less accurate). In any case, the raws directly disprove your point and make it very clear how Fantasy Nature works.

More importantly, the phrasing of 'nobody could beat her using any method' is also an indicator of the technique's range; At this point in canon, characters with multiversal range such as Yukari had already been introduced (with more and more characters with such range being introduced later). If Reimu cannot be harmed by such characters, then her range must be multiversal out of necessity.
Click to expand...
The part you quoted about "霊夢はありとあらゆるものから宙に浮き無敵となる" can be translated in many ways, that is true, but in context it is translated as rising into the air and floating above everything. thing I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly, but if you mean "Fantasy nature, it's like another form of Reimu??? (sorry if I misunderstood, but I'm really not good at English)"

宙に浮 has 3 meanings.
1.floating in the air,away from the ground into the air
2.half and half
3.Don't know the win or loss result.
In this case, it's type 1.

And ありとあらゆる is a word used to emphasize the meaning of the word あらゆる. So the meaning will be everything.

As for the case of parody that you gave, it's a different case than "Fantasy Nature" is a kind of JP parody and you really don't seem to understand that. Basically, what you said is a parody of "Samurai Showdown"How? If it's based on the information that we've summarized on the jp webboard, I can't remember much, but what I do remember is about Lastword Yukari is a homonym of the game "Mugenhouyou" which is a Bishōjo game in JP.

And then Lastword Yukari is a parody that is different from Fantasy Nature. Fantasy Nature is a parody name and information but Lastword Yukari is just name,isn't information

This isn't really a confirmation, but I made up my own idea about Fantasy nature is that, ummm, back then the ability was explained that no one in Gensokyo could beat her. Maybe it's because at that time Touhou didn't have as many characters as now and Zun did some things that weren't really tight. Zun probably only counted from that time period, but nowadays I'm starting to be uncertain about the information. And Zun probably didn't think that anyone would interpret this so seriously. lol It's so cool that Reimu would fly that high.
 
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SomeJJJJ said:
also, Fuji said at the start of this thread that, there's profiles with misinfo and poor justifications and that the current profiles are being worked on bc they are outdated , although no idea what this guy wants to come and talk about Touhou besides Reimu's Fantasy Nature and all those examples.
Click to expand...
I have a lot to say. But I must say, I haven't examined them well enough.If possible, I might have to consult Fujiwara first.
 
CatfishSensei said:
The part you quoted about "霊夢はありとあらゆるものから宙に浮き無敵となる" can be translated in many ways, that is true, but in context it is translated as rising into the air and floating above everything. thing I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly, but if you mean "Fantasy nature, it's like another form of Reimu??? (sorry if I misunderstood, but I'm really not good at English)"

宙に浮 has 3 meanings.
1.floating in the air,away from the ground into the air
2.half and half
3.Don't know the win or loss result.
In this case, it's type 1.

And ありとあらゆる is a word used to emphasize the meaning of the word あらゆる. So the meaning will be everything.

As for the case of parody that you gave, it's a different case than "Fantasy Nature" is a kind of JP parody and you really don't seem to understand that. Basically, what you said is a parody of "Samurai Showdown"How? If it's based on the information that we've summarized on the jp webboard, I can't remember much, but what I do remember is about Lastword Yukari is a homonym of the game "Mugenhouyou" which is a Bishōjo game in JP.

And then Lastword Yukari is a parody that is different from Fantasy Nature. Fantasy Nature is a parody name and information but Lastword Yukari is just name,isn't information

This isn't really a confirmation, but I made up my own idea about Fantasy. The nature is that, ummm, back then the ability was explained that no one in Gensokyo could beat her. Maybe it's because at that time Touhou didn't have as many characters as now and Zun did some things that weren't really tight. Zun probably only counted from that time period, but nowadays I'm starting to be uncertain about the information. And Zun probably didn't think that anyone would interpret this so seriously. lol It's so cool that Reimu would fly that high.
Click to expand...
This is something I've always thought about. Finally someone put it into words
 
Ah, I disagree with temporarily banning Touhou matches. They can be fun, sometimes. And I am unsure for how long the public won't be able to do Touhou matches. Wouldn't it be better to just remove all the matches once the profiles are updated?

I am unsure if this is standard for this wiki, but if it is, those standards suck.

Either way, if Touhou matches are temporarily banned, can I still make Touhou matchups in Fun & Games?
 
Eseseso said:
Fuji's theme when she returns to the wiki and buffs the crap out of an already-haxxy Touhou:



(Seriously why is Touhou music so good)
Click to expand...

Do you know when Fuji will reply? I've been waiting for many days since the cirno profile copied Fuji's comments to reply to me. :3
 
Eseseso said:
2. I assume we can expect a 2-B Touhou upgrade in the future?
Click to expand...
If by "future" you mean "about two years from now", then sure.
CatfishSensei said:
The part you quoted about "霊夢はありとあらゆるものから宙に浮き無敵となる" can be translated in many ways, that is true, but in context it is translated as rising into the air and floating above everything. thing I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly, but if you mean "Fantasy nature, it's like another form of Reimu??? (sorry if I misunderstood, but I'm really not good at English)"

宙に浮 has 3 meanings.
1.floating in the air,away from the ground into the air
2.half and half
3.Don't know the win or loss result.
In this case, it's type 1.

And ありとあらゆる is a word used to emphasize the meaning of the word あらゆる. So the meaning will be everything.
Click to expand...
The thing is, if she's floating above everything that exists - because she is, given what the raws state - then it's also spatial intangibility regardless of the fact that it's an extension of flying. There's a reason why Fantasy Nature is described as the ultimate expression of her ability to float, after all. If she were simply flying and nothing else, as you imply, then she could still be harmed by attacks, especially by those with sufficient range like Yukari... except they can't do that, so that entire argument falls apart.
CatfishSensei said:
As for the case of parody that you gave, it's a different case than "Fantasy Nature" is a kind of JP parody and you really don't seem to understand that. Basically, what you said is a parody of "Samurai Showdown"How? If it's based on the information that we've summarized on the jp webboard, I can't remember much, but what I do remember is about Lastword Yukari is a homonym of the game "Mugenhouyou" which is a Bishōjo game in JP.

And then Lastword Yukari is a parody that is different from Fantasy Nature. Fantasy Nature is a parody name and information but Lastword Yukari is just name,isn't information
Click to expand...
Okay first of all, Yukari's LW is explicitly a reference to Samsho outside of its name, as are Mokou's Saint Seiya/Final Fantasy spell cards. Second, we do not cross-scale abilities like that; Fantasy Nature parodies FotNS in name and music, but nothing more, and VSBW does not allow references like that to be used to determine the functions of an ability - only what's in the series itself can be used.
CatfishSensei said:
This isn't really a confirmation, but I made up my own idea about Fantasy nature is that, ummm, back then the ability was explained that no one in Gensokyo could beat her. Maybe it's because at that time Touhou didn't have as many characters as now and Zun did some things that weren't really tight. Zun probably only counted from that time period, but nowadays I'm starting to be uncertain about the information. And Zun probably didn't think that anyone would interpret this so seriously. lol It's so cool that Reimu would fly that high.
Click to expand...
Even if you do restrict Reimu's range with Fantasy Nature to scaling to the characters in Imperishable Night and prior games... it'd still be multiversal range. Yukari already existed back then, and she has perhaps the most explicit multiversal range out of any character in the series, which Reimu would upscale from. So this point fundamentally doesn't work lol
CatfishSensei said:
I agree about range. But I don't agree that Fantasy Nature floats beyond existence itself to become untouchable to all attacks
Click to expand...
Wait, so where do you think multiversal range comes from if not that? Reimu floating beyond existence is why she has multiversal range.
Eseseso said:
Fuji's theme when she returns to the wiki and buffs the crap out of an already-haxxy Touhou:



(Seriously why is Touhou music so good)
Click to expand...

yall please it's gonna be another few months at minimum
CatfishSensei said:
Do you know when Fuji will reply?
Click to expand...
Never.
 
Deidalius said:
Ah, I disagree with temporarily banning Touhou matches. They can be fun, sometimes. And I am unsure for how long the public won't be able to do Touhou matches. Wouldn't it be better to just remove all the matches once the profiles are updated?
Click to expand...
They're fun for everyone except the people who have to keep correcting every misconception there is about the verse (of which there are a lot). If every MU is bogged down with pages of people having to explain the most basic concepts in the verse because the pages themselves fail to properly inform people, then why not just wait until the pages are better?

Also, removing the matches after the updates would be even MORE work for me to do. Don't make me question my sanity even more than I already am.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
They're fun for everyone except the people who have to keep correcting every misconception there is about the verse (of which there are a lot). If every MU is bogged down with pages of people having to explain the most basic concepts in the verse because the pages themselves fail to properly inform people, then why not just wait until the pages are better?

Also, removing the matches after the updates would be even MORE work for me to do. Don't make me question my sanity even more than I already am.
Click to expand...
As someone who is a fan of another verse with many obsolete pages, I can relate.
 
Eh, fair enough. Can I still make Touhou matches with the current profiles in the fun & games threads though?
 
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