Touhou VS Thread Proposal + A Minor Fix

[CatfishSensei]

The thing is, if she's floating above everything that exists - because she is, given what the raws state - then it's also spatial intangibility regardless of the fact that it's an extension of flying. There's a reason why Fantasy Nature is described as the ultimate expression of her ability to float, after all. If she were simply flying and nothing else, as you imply, then she could still be harmed by attacks, especially by those with sufficient range like Yukari... except they can't do that, so that entire argument falls apart.

That's what I'm curious about as there aren't any more details in File game. If I had to guess, she would probably fly up at a extreme speed. As for the information in TGoM and Filegame, there is an obvious conflict. If we take it literally, Filegame's information should be more reliable. Keep in mind that TGoM is written from Marisa's point of view in Fantasy Nature also included FotNS's parody. From its name and abilities it is similar to Kenshiro's Musoutensei. So I probably trust Filegame more.And Marisa herself likes to tease other parodies regularly, so it's not surprising that there are parodies even with information.

Okay first of all, Yukari's LW is explicitly a reference to Samsho outside of its name, as are Mokou's Saint Seiya/Final Fantasy spell cards.

Ooooh,
The questioner said about Yukari that Last Word Yukari was based on Teketeke, so ZUN-sama said that she tried to split the enemy in two. Like in the game Samurai Showdown
It's true that ZUN said it himself, but it's not related in terms of reference.
Example: Look, this move explodes like a Michael Bay movie. And then came to say that this pose has a reference from Michael Bay.......It's not If you're citing a reference like this, does that mean that anything she split opponent half must be a reference from the Samurai Showdown Game? It's not.

and VSBW does not allow references like that to be used to determine the functions of an ability - only what's in the series itself can be used.

OK,I get it

Wait, so where do you think multiversal range comes from if not that? Reimu floating beyond existence is why she has multiversal range.

As you say, Yukari, whose abilities span the entire verse. The cosmology has countless worlds beyond, and the Dream World, which is a carbon copy of reality (2x 2-B, in other words) I don't have a problem with this. Originally Fantasy Nature-Innate Dream, in my understanding, is about flying high and then attacking down. This means that even if it's Yukari, it can't attack Reimu when Reimu flies to its maximum high, but Reimu can attack Yukari, so he should get Range 2-B.

 

[CatfishSensei]

Never.

2000 years later I waited you and will be again..

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Right, so you seem to accept that Reimu is simply "flying" outside of Yukari's range. This means she cannot be in the same universe as Yukari, given Yukari could affect her if she were. She also cannot be anywhere in existence, since Yukari could also affect her there. So she naturally has to be flying outside of existence itself, as that is Yukari's maximum range. That's is all that I'm proposing here.

 

[CatfishSensei]

Right, so you seem to accept that Reimu is simply "flying" outside of Yukari's range. This means she cannot be in the same universe as Yukari, given Yukari could affect her if she were. She also cannot be anywhere in existence, since Yukari could also affect her there. So she naturally has to be flying outside of existence itself, as that is Yukari's maximum range. That's is all that I'm proposing here.

That's all the information in the game file. That's why I said it must have been amazing for Reimu to fly so high that it exceeded Yukari's range. And it makes me think that Zun probably forgot about this or composed he while drunk like when making games.

 

[SomeJJJJ]

he didn't because in Soku... it was literally back , Fantasy nature is one of the most fu##ing broken spell cards in that game, only a few characters can avoid it.

 

[CatfishSensei]

Right, so you seem to accept that Reimu is simply "flying" outside of Yukari's range. This means she cannot be in the same universe as Yukari, given Yukari could affect her if she were. She also cannot be anywhere in existence, since Yukari could also affect her there. So she naturally has to be flying outside of existence itself, as that is Yukari's maximum range. That's is all that I'm proposing here.

So what do you think if it's just a plot hole about Fantasy Nature and Yukari?

 

[SomeJJJJ]

I don't understand how that would be something without logical reason, given that it is literally the ultimate expression of Reimu's ability.

 

[CatfishSensei]

I don't understand how that would be something without logical reason, given that it is literally the ultimate expression of Reimu's ability.

Within the filegame it is described exactly as you said and it is exactly what I type before tried to confirm that it was really just flying.

Compared to Yukari which ability is mentioned in PMISS that her range usage doesn't seem like it would take Reimu out of range just because she's fly high, so it doesn't make sense.

Explanation of boundary abilities should come after Fantasy Nature is explained. Even So it was no wonder that Zun forgot about this,And there were many times when it was shown that he was also forgetful.

Pmiss explain ability of Yukari in 2006-2007

Touhou 8 File game explain about Fantasy nature in 2004.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So what do you think if it's just a plot hole about Fantasy Nature and Yukari?

Within the filegame it is described exactly as you said and it is exactly what I type before tried to confirm that it was really just flying.

Compared to Yukari which ability is mentioned in PMISS that her range usage doesn't seem like it would take Reimu out of range just because she's fly high, so it doesn't make sense.

Explanation of boundary abilities should come after Fantasy Nature is explained. Even So it was no wonder that Zun forgot about this,And there were many times when it was shown that he was also forgetful.

Pmiss explain ability of Yukari in 2006-2007

Touhou 8 File game explain about Fantasy nature in 2004.

Yeah, highly disagree with this. "Maybe the author just forgot" is a non-argument, because it assumes authorial intent (maybe "intent" is the wrong word, but you get what I mean) where it's impossible to discern any. Saying ZUN forgot is as accurate as me saying that he didn't forget, because both of these things are impossible to determine. However, based exclusively on the context presented in the series itself, the statements from IN and PMiSS do not contradict each other and instead work together to paint a broader picture of Reimu's capabilities.

this is also ignoring how Grimoire of Marisa, which came out in 2009, corroborates the Imperishable Night statement lol

 

[CatfishSensei]

Yeah, highly disagree with this. "Maybe the author just forgot" is a non-argument, because it assumes authorial intent (maybe "intent" is the wrong word, but you get what I mean) where it's impossible to discern any. Saying ZUN forgot is as accurate as me saying that he didn't forget, because both of these things are impossible to determine

Ah, I understand what you're trying to tell me, you're right. I'm just talking about the other way it could be. Because Zun has really forgotten some things in the past, such as about Alice Margatroid, it is one of the possibilities. But like you said, it's not an argument.

ZUN forgot is as accurate as me saying that he didn't forget, because both of these things are impossible to determine. However, based exclusively on the context presented in the series itself, the statements from IN and PMiSS do not contradict each other and instead work together to paint a broader picture of Reimu's capabilities.

this is also ignoring how Grimoire of Marisa, which came out in 2009, corroborates the Imperishable Night statement lol

There isn't enough evidence that the two actually work together. Plus, as I said, I chose to ignore some information about The Grimoire of Marisa because information about that ability was teased from FotNS as well, as I said. The information of Fantasy Nature and Musoutensei(Kenshiro) is similar to,It is the concept of Parodies Jp.

If I were to say, when on Webboard jp, about 8-9 years ago, there was an issue that caused us to argue because the information was different. It was about what we were arguing about, I don't think I have to argue about this again.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ah, I understand what you're trying to tell me, you're right. I'm just talking about the other way it could be. Because Zun has really forgotten some things in the past, such as about Alice Margatroid, it is one of the possibilities. But like you said, it's not an argument.

ZUN didn't forget anything about Alice, what? Even if he did, we wouldn't just assume he happened to forget something completely unrelated. This entire argument hinges on making highly specific assumptions about a real person, which I hope you realize is absurd. And if he did forget, so what? We shouldn't let that override the information as its presented in canon. WoG isn't infallible, and as of now we have no reason to disregard the statements from IN and PMiSS.

There isn't enough evidence that the two actually work together. Plus, as I said, I chose to ignore some information about The Grimoire of Marisa because information about that ability was teased from FotNS as well, as I said. The information of Fantasy Nature and Musoutensei(Kenshiro) is similar to,It is the concept of Parodies Jp.

The "reference" to FotNS is literally just the name and the theme music. In terms of how the abilities function, they are completely different, and we don't even allow for references and parodies to be used for abilities, so for the love of god stop bringing up FotNS.

Literally all you keep saying it "well maybe ZUN forgot" and random nonsense about FotNS while making up excuses about why we can't use the information as its presented in canon. I mean, at this rate, why not just go "actually ZUN thinks the verse is boundless and the Necronomicon is canon, so obviously everyone scales above the Cthulu Mythos"? It's no different than what you're doing, just the same logic applied in the opposite direction.

 

[CatfishSensei]

ZUN didn't forget anything about Alice, what?

Alice PC-98 is said to be a creature created by Shinki. In 7.5, it is said to be a race of megician. But when it comes to Pmiss, it says that it is a human being who trained to become a megician. It can be said that he forgot or did it on purpose. Or you have information that he has not forgotten, please be sure to tell me about it.

so for the love of god stop bringing up FotNS.

Ok. god of love give it to you :3

Anyway, if you don't want me to quote that, fine, if that's the rule. You can't deny that the information is different. They don't support each other in terms of abilities. The evidence is that in The Grimoire of Marisa there is no mention of similar information in the game files. Therefore, I think it should not be related and different.

Which is more believable between the information from Marisa and the information in the game files? If both are to be believed and supported, it is an expansion of Reimu's abilities. It was not shown to be like that. That part is your own interpretation.

 

[Quibster]

Alice PC-98 is said to be a creature created by Shinki.

Alice's origins are uncertain. As far as we currently know, Alice was possibly a resident of Makai during Mystic Square (TH05). ZUN also never directly confirms that Alice was created by Shinki, and it's never elaborated upon even after the transition from PC-98 to Windows era. Perfect Memento in Strict Sense even mentions that she was a Human turned into a Youkai; but beyond that, nothing related to Shinki.

 

[CatfishSensei]

Ok,Thx :3

 

[SomeJJJJ]

Anyway, if you don't want me to quote that, fine, if that's the rule. You can't deny that the information is different. They don't support each other in terms of abilities. The evidence is that in The Grimoire of Marisa there is no mention of similar information in the game files. Therefore, I think it should not be related and different.

Which is more believable between the information from Marisa and the information in the game files? If both are to be believed and supported, it is an expansion of Reimu's abilities. It was not shown to be like that. That part is your own interpretation.

Fuji saying that the GoM Statements just corroborates Reimu's Fantasy Nature in IN:::

 

[CatfishSensei]

Fuji saying that the GoM Statements just corroborates Reimu's Fantasy Nature in IN:::

Is that Fuji's own interpretation or is there evidence that can be referenced that it can be a statement?? Is there any confirmation from the interview?

 

[SomeJJJJ]

Is that Fuji's own interpretation

still would make sense,also don't forget that Fantasy Nature appeared in IN and IN was intended to be the last game (and literally unlike other games, IN literally is the game that has the craziest haxes lol. so giving her a technique where Reimu literally floats above Yukari and everything else in existence would make too much sense.)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't think we have to entertain this argument anymore when it really just boils down to taking two canon statements and going "no that's wrong" without explaining why.

 

[NatzuX]

OK Now, I want to know what about misunderstand between Fuji and Catfish?

 

[marosuke]

you know touhou is 2D game. floting sounds like using another axis.
seems fine

 

[SomeJJJJ]

imo this should get evaluated soon , Fuji has like three threads in progress lol.

 

[CatfishSensei]

I don't think we have to entertain this argument anymore when it really just boils down to taking two canon statements and going "no that's wrong" without explaining why.

I've explained everything. It's just that you guys might not understand what I'm trying to say.

I know you're probably pretty annoyed with me about this.

The god of love probably won't be able to help you because if I had to explain it would be about things that you won't let me talk about again. You said that the abilities aren't the same between Fantasy Nature and Musoutensei. If you really know well, it's the same thing.

(FotNS)
" the user to achieve a state of "nothingness", impervious to attacks, and commune with the souls of fallen rivals (i.e. Toki, Ryūga, the Nanto Roku Seiken and later Raoh) in order to harness their techniques. Essentially, this internal technique allows the users body to become completely intangible and allows them to glide through air or phase"

It's the same since called Musou Tensei (Fantasy Nature)(MusouTensei).

Marisa is the writer of Gom, If you've played Touhou, you probably know that Marisa is a regular at parodies another fiction.

Or that Touhou translated to En doesn't have those parodies so you don't understand because if you play Jp there will be some banter.

Don't you think it's the same? It's just a deliberate parody that is parodies jp, I'm not denying information from GoM, just that at this point it's clearly just parodies.

And if it's just a parody, you can't use this feat to claim it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I've explained everything. It's just that you guys might not understand what I'm trying to say.

I know you're probably pretty annoyed with me about this.

The god of love probably won't be able to help you because if I had to explain it would be about things that you won't let me talk about again. You said that the abilities aren't the same between Fantasy Nature and Musoutensei. If you really know well, it's the same thing.

(FotNS)
" the user to achieve a state of "nothingness", impervious to attacks, and commune with the souls of fallen rivals (i.e. Toki, Ryūga, the Nanto Roku Seiken and later Raoh) in order to harness their techniques. Essentially, this internal technique allows the users body to become completely intangible and allows them to glide through air or phase"

It's the same since called Musou Tensei (Fantasy Nature)(MusouTensei).

Marisa is the writer of Gom, If you've played Touhou, you probably know that Marisa is a regular at parodies another fiction.

Or that Touhou translated to En doesn't have those parodies so you don't understand because if you play Jp there will be some banter.

Don't you think it's the same? It's just a deliberate parody that is parodies jp, I'm not denying information from GoM, just that at this point it's clearly just parodies.

And if it's just a parody, you can't use this feat to claim it.

Idk what to say man, we just don't do scaling this way. Fantasy Nature being a parody means nothing. If you're just gonna keep repeating this, then I'll just ignore you lol

 

[NatzuX]

Idk what to say man, we just don't do scaling this way. Fantasy Nature being a parody means nothing. If you're just gonna keep repeating this, then I'll just ignore you lol

lmao

 

[NatzuX]

Calm down plz. Ok, He want to try to convey that GoM took FotNS's information to use as a meme or parody. Therefore, he thought that such information should not be counted as a valid feat.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Calm down plz. Ok, He want to try to convey that GoM took FotNS's information to use as a meme or parody. Therefore, he thought that such information should not be counted as a valid feat.

Except GoM didn't do that. It doesn't reference FotNS at all. The only references to FotNS are 1. the attack's theme in Hisoutensoku (released after GoM), and 2. the attack's name (which predates GoM). So either no information is valid because it's always been a FotNS reference (which is insane), or everything is valid because the only point against it is founded on a blatant misunderstanding.

Are we really going to start debating things solely on the basis of "well the music sounds kinda like FotNS, so the attack has to work exactly like it does in FotNS"?

 

[CatfishSensei]

Except GoM didn't do that. It doesn't reference FotNS at all. The only references to FotNS are 1. the attack's theme in Hisoutensoku (released after GoM), and 2. the attack's name (which predates GoM). So either no information is valid because it's always been a FotNS reference (which is insane), or everything is valid because the only point against it is founded on a blatant misunderstanding.

Are we really going to start debating things solely on the basis of "well the music sounds kinda like FotNS, so the attack has to work exactly like it does in FotNS"?

So let me ask you, why do you think GoM doesn't parodies FotNS? I'm really curious about this one. How can you be sure that the parody only exists as you say?
GoM information is reliable and truthful. But there is also a part that is a parody, which is a small part.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So let me ask you, why do you think GoM doesn't parodies FotNS? I'm really curious about this one. How can you be sure that the parody only exists as you say?
GoM information is reliable and truthful. But there is also a part that is a parody, which is a small part.

"How can I be sure" Because I read the text and none of it refers to FotNS.

 

[Quibster]

I disagree with CatfishSensei.

I think operating under the reasoning: “Reimu’s Fantasy Nature is written the same as Kenshiro’s Musou Tensei, and therefore shouldn’t be taken seriously as a feat” is ridiculous at best and a very misguided downplay at worst.

If a feat is written with credible statements, demonstrated in any form of media it is portrayed in, and is never corrected or given an errata for the 16+ years it has existed (context being IN, in this case), then it is a valid feat. This is simply how power-scaling works, and whether an ability is or isn’t a parody is irrelevant in this hobby.

If this site weighed whether or not something— like an ability to power— should be valid based on it being inspired on another piece of media, then no verse should be taken seriously. All media is derivative. It’s just not a good argument to stand on.

We recognize the similarities between how the two character’s abilities are written in ENG. But nowhere does it say that it functions to the same degree as FotNS’s Musou Tensei, nor does it mention that it is the directly same.

You could argue that it is the same mechanically, but it still operates on an entirely different scale. Touhou also functions on a fundamentally different power system that is unrelated to FotNS.

This push to invalidate Reimu’s Fantasy Nature as a feat should be dropped and we should move on. Casting doubt on the basis of “It’s just a parody ability” followed up with “That’s just your own interpretation!” without any modicum of evidence to back what you’re saying is silly. I have nothing more to say regarding this if I’m being truthful here.

 

[CatfishSensei]

I don't have anything else to say. I stopped this matter when Fuji told me earlier. :3

 

[NatzuX]

Can I invite some touhou's staff to manage this?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Can I invite some touhou's staff to manage this?

I mean sure, but no staff are really invested in Touhou. I'll make a recap post for both sides, though, so it'll be easier to evaluate.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'll make a recap post for both sides, though, so it'll be easier to evaluate.

Points for Reimu having multiversal range:

• Directly stated to float "above" everything that exists, which would include the currently accepted 2-B cosmology. (translation is slightly inaccurate, but the original text is in fact "all things/everything that exists")
• Stated to be unable to be harmed by anything in the series, which would include characters with accepted multiversal range. This has never been contradicted in the series.

Points against Reimu having multiversal range:

• The name of the technique (Fantasy Nature), in Japanese, is pronounced the exact same as Musou Tensei from FotNS. The attack's theme is also very similar to You Wa Shock.
• Maybe the author forgot about characters with multiversal range when writing that comment.

...Yeah it's pretty simple when laid out like this.

 

[CatfishSensei]

The attack's theme is also very similar to You Wa Shock.

I actually didn't know this song before. But I just know that when you wrote it

It should also be added that FotNS's interpretation of the data is similar to reimu's Fantas Nature. That is, from my point of view, the interpretation is that it is similar even if other people don't agree with it. And it would make me look silly. But let's just put it in there because that's what I'm really arguing about that

 

[marosuke]

if reimu just got the highground against entire 2-B structure, wouldn't be BDE type1?
As a result they aren't limited to existing within spatiotemporal realms and are often unaffected by Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation or can at least defend against it by leaving spacetime at will.
Why the range?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

if reimu just got the highground against entire 2-B structure, wouldn't be BDE type1?
As a result they aren't limited to existing within spatiotemporal realms and are often unaffected by Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation or can at least defend against it by leaving spacetime at will.
Why the range?

...I was about to argue against this, but damn, I didn't realize that that's exactly what Reimu does. So yeah, Ig it would be type 1 BDE lol (I'll add it to the OP)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh yeah, I'd also like to propose that the soft discussion ban be expanded to CRTs as well, similar to what SMT is currently doing. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

 

[Quibster]

Seeing as the verse is going through across-the-board revisions, I don't object. It'd be better to handle CRT's after revisions been completed anyways.

Side note, I will say that 17 through 19 needs some characters added to the verse page. Any hope of that happening?