Touhou regen neg and more CRT

[MeWhenEasyModo]

We know that Mokou is destroyed constantly, and that her spell card, "Resurrection" is her Regeneration at play. This is directly derivative of both the Hourai Elixir and her design being themed after a phoenix. Pheonixes ressurect after their death, much like how Mokou "ressurects" after each time her spell card is overcome. In fact, it's moreso relevant because we know she "grows in strength with each rebirth". You can easily argue that her self-rebirthing/immolating here is part of her fighting style, rather than the characters destroying her each time with raw AP. The fighting games and databooks even support this.

This is mostly my issue with this CRT, and I think you put it very well. Why should we assume the protagonists are repeatedly killing her, when it is very in character for Mokou to destroy herself during combat? I would agree with the regen neg otherwise, but it’s just far more likely that Mokou herself is doing the damage.

If it was a real battle, sure, that could be a possibility. But even then you can’t say with 100% certainty whether or not the protagonists are killing her or if Moko is just doing her trademark rebirth fighting style.

But I don’t believe they’re fighting for real. While Quibster made some excellent reasons for that not being the case, the simple fact of the matter is that, in Imperishable Night, Mokou fights with Spellcards. Dodgable, purposefully beatable attacks that are even described as Spellcards in The Grimoire of Marisa. Why would she use winnable attacks in an all out battle?

 

[Speedblitzer50]

I'm of the same mind here. The presence of spell cards being utilized, in and of itself, contradicts the claims of the contrary.

Not all spell card rules are broken, characters still create beautiful patterns and all that. The only rule that is broken is the fact of containing its power (AP

There appears to be a disconnect between how "power" is interpreted by you and how it is perceived by the characters in the games. Here, "power" is defined as a test of beauty and skill through Danmaku; it's a time-honored staple of the series. Excessive use of power does not equate to lethal intent either, only a difference in skill.

And Youmu contradicts that herself, she used all her power against Mokou because she was immortal and couldn't die, if we follow your logic then Youmu would return her attacks with more beauty and skill just because the other was immortal, which
It doesn't make any sense. It's like saying that Youmu thought ""Oh look, she is immortal and can't die, so I'll make my attacks more beautiful and have more skill this time"" just doesn't make sense, just because Mokou is immortal doesn't mean that that's why they're going to have to use better skill and beauty against her, they can literally do that against anyone in any spell card battle. Youmu used all his power (AP) because Mokou was immortal, and if she is immortal then there is literally no reason to hold back because she is not going to die, unlike Utsuho who can die and it is logical that they fight with the rules in their entirety to avoid that.

And also, with the phrase "hold back" it is clearly because they contain their AP, because if we follow your logic again, the characters are containing their beauty and skill which makes no sense, the main purpose of spell card battles is beauty and skill instead of
strength, why on earth would they hold back the main purpose of these battles? If we follow your logic, it means that the characters become sillier and create less beautiful patterns on purpose

I’m not convinced that Mokou’s refusal to hold back implies she is using lethal force; especially after the myriad of beautiful danmaku we see her display.

By holding back they mean hold back their AP, and when they don't contain it means they use all their AP, but don't necessarily break the other rules like time limits, beatiful patterns or dodgeable bullets

In this context, we're talking about confrontations involving a Hourai Immortal, who cannot die and constantly regenerates from her soul. As such, the risk of a lethal conflict for Mokou is virtually nonexistent. The characters acknowledge her immortality and willingly accept her challenge to a Trial of Guts. Therefore, if the characters are prepared to challenge one another, what rules are being broken— especially against someone who is literally incapable of dying? It simply does not make sense.

And because there is no risk of Mokou dying, that is why they use all their power (AP) against her, there is no risk of her dying so why hold back, even Youmu says so. Not to mention that Mokou also attacks without holding back, another more reason to attack her without holding back

Even Reimu, the one who helped established the Spellcard rules (sourced in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense) consents to fight Mokou under these conditions

Don't expect Reimu to follow her own rules. Reimu killed the fortune teller when she could have challenged him to a spell card battle but she didn't kill Utsuho who was going to turn the world into ashes. ah yes, how I love Reimu lol

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Damn my cell phone bugged let me fix this lol

 

[StrymULTRA]

she practically scales to herself (sounds weird)

It's not the only case actually. Meruem from HxH scales above his own durability due to him being able to tear off his own arm.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Because my cell phone is shit, I will continue my response in this message

There's spell cards, there's danmaku, and there's extremely beautiful displays of skill on Mokou's part; that's where the "power" is. Mokou even backs down when she can no longer fight by the end of each scenario, which is a boldface part of the spellcard rules ("In the case that a combatant loses a named duel, that combatant will admit defeat, even if he or she has strength remaining.")

I repeat, By holding back they mean hold back their AP, and when they don't contain it means they use all their AP, but don't necessarily break the other rules like time limits, beatiful patterns or dodgeable bullets

Striking strength scales to durability, AP does not. I've also previously pointed out how she takes advantage of her immortality in the fighting games via self-immolating/rebirthing. Marisa also outright states that Mokou "dies" and resurrects constantly (from Grimoire of Marisa).

Mokou scales AP to his durability, never mention striking strength. and to destroy itself she needs to break through its own Durability, so...lol

We know that Mokou is destroyed constantly, and that her spell card, "Resurrection" is her Regeneration at play. This is directly derivative of both the Hourai Elixir and her design being themed after a phoenix. Pheonixes ressurect after their death, much like how Mokou "ressurects" after each time her spell card is overcome. In fact, it's moreso relevant because we know she "grows in strength with each rebirth". You can easily argue that her self-rebirthing/immolating here is part of her fighting style, rather than the characters destroying her each time with raw AP. The fighting games and databooks even support this.

It's very different from her self-destructing and others destroying her, in Touhou 8 she was destroyed several times, and she self-destructed as well. They are different things, if they destroy Mokou then it is AP, Mokou did not destroy herself all the times

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

Not all spell card rules are broken, characters still create beautiful patterns and all that. The only rule that is broken is the fact of containing its power (AP

You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Spellcard battles are, first and foremost, battles to showcase beauty. The entire meaning of spellcard battles would be null if the point of the Spellcard was to kill the opponent. Spellcard battles must inherently be non-lethal, or else that defeats the whole purpose.

And Youmu contradicts that herself, she used all her power against Mokou because she was immortal and couldn't die, if we follow your logic then Youmu would return her attacks with more beauty and skill just because the other was immortal, which
It doesn't make any sense. It's like saying that Youmu thought ""Oh look, she is immortal and can't die, so I'll make my attacks more beautiful and have more skill this time"" just doesn't make sense, just because Mokou is immortal doesn't mean that that's why they're going to have to use better skill and beauty against her, they can literally do that against anyone in any spell card battle. Youmu used all his power (AP) because Mokou was immortal, and if she is immortal then there is literally no reason to hold back because she is not going to die, unlike Utsuho who can die and it is logical that they fight with the rules in their entirety to avoid that.

And also, with the phrase "hold back" it is clearly because they contain their AP, because if we follow your logic again, the characters are containing their beauty and skill which makes no sense, the main purpose of spell card battles is beauty and skill instead of
strength, why on earth would they hold back the main purpose of these battles? If we follow your logic, it means that the characters become sillier and create less beautiful patterns on purpose

By holding back they mean hold back their AP, and when they don't contain it means they use all their AP, but don't necessarily break the other rules like time limits, beatiful patterns or dodgeable bullets

And because there is no risk of Mokou dying, that is why they use all their power (AP) against her, there is no risk of her dying so why hold back, even Youmu says so. Not to mention that Mokou also attacks without holding back, another more reason to attack her without holding back

Don't expect Reimu to follow her own rules. Reimu killed the fortune teller when she could have challenged him to a spell card battle but she didn't kill Utsuho who was going to turn the world into ashes. ah yes, how I love Reimu lol

Hard disagree with the reasoning here. When characters speak about power it is always in relation to skill in Spellcard battles. From just a quick scan of HSiFS’s extra stage, we can see Okina claims to use her full power (“The secret god's true magic power shall be your greatest impairment!”) and then proceeds to engage in a normal Spellcard battle with Reimu. Furthermore, characters frequently engage in posturing and smack talk prior to battles, so I’d wager 90% of the time they don’t even go all out (even after claiming to.)

Don't expect Reimu to follow her own rules. Reimu killed the fortune teller when she could have challenged him to a spell card battle but she didn't kill Utsuho who was going to turn the world into ashes. ah yes, how I love Reimu lol

Except she does. For a very long time, all the way since Touhou 6, she has engaged in Spellcard battles. The fortune teller is an outlier, someone that posed a significant threat to Gensokyo and someone who Reimu would be remiss not to execute. Utsuho threatened the entire world, while the fortune teller threatened the balance of power between humans and youkai in Gensokyo. It’s interesting how she’d take fortune teller more seriously, but I’d say pretty in line with her duties as Hakurei Shrine Maiden.

It's very different from her self-destructing and others destroying her, in Touhou 8 she was destroyed several times, and she self-destructed as well. They are different things, if they destroy Mokou then it is AP, Mokou did not destroy herself all the times

I don’t see the difference. It’s the exact same fight, and only goes to further the idea that Mokou frequently self destructs. I suppose this might help illustrate a difference, although it’s strange that only one of her spellcards features her defining combat strategy.

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

Honestly it just makes more sense for me. One answer goes through a lot less mental gymnastics (Why fight Mokou seriously? Why abandon the commonly practiced spellcard rules?) and is just very consistent with Mokou’s character.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Spellcard battles are, first and foremost, battles to showcase beauty. The entire meaning of spellcard battles would be null if the point of the Spellcard was to kill the opponent. Spellcard battles must inherently be non-lethal, or else that defeats the whole purpose.

Why do I have to repeat the same thing?

Exactly, the spell cards battles rules say that they should be non-lethal battles and only focused on skill and beauty, and with non-lethal it obviously refers to containing your AP to obviously not kill the opponent (come on, for example Marisa obviously holds back her AP during spell card battles against much weaker opponents like Koakuma, and if she doesn't hold back then it would destroy her in one shot)

When the characters are not
hold back means that if they are using their AP, practically breaking the main rule, but still following other rules like beautiful patterns and everything else

Because if we follow your logic that power only refers to ability and
beauty in the danmaku would the statement of not holding back not make any sense, why would the characters hold back their skill if that is the main function of these battles? And why Youmu would decide to "have more skill and beauty" against Mokou just because she is immortal? And why Mokou never holds back means that she "always has more skill and beauty in her patterns"? And why Mamizou believes that Reimu was not holding back while Reimu claims that she was????? Do you mean that Reimu always becomes more dumb in combat and creates ugly patterns on purpose because she is containing her "power" which according to you is just skill and beauty???

By your logic, this is like a game of
chess where strategy is the only important thing, but the players become dumber and stupids on purpose just because ""they hold back their power, and power is strategy, and when they don't hold back themselves it means that now they do use their brain to make strategys"" ._.

Hard disagree with the reasoning here. When characters speak about power it is always in relation to skill in Spellcard battles. From just a quick scan of HSiFS’s extra stage, we can see Okina claims to use her full power (“The secret god's true magic power shall be your greatest impairment!”) and then proceeds to engage in a normal Spellcard battle with Reimu. Furthermore, characters frequently engage in posturing and smack talk prior to battles, so I’d wager 90% of the time they don’t even go all out (even after claiming to.)

I already answered part of this and I won't do it again lol

and with Okina, she says "true magic power" not "full magic power". Demonstrating your true power is not the same as showing it to the maximum, otherwise Okina would have said "Full true magic power" (for example, imagine that your true power is to summon a sword, but just because it is your true power does not mean it is full power, since you can still hold back your sword)

and also, in case Okina had used her full power (which I don't believe) just means that she didn't contain his AP and that's it, there's no big mystery here

Except she does. For a very long time, all the way since Touhou 6, she has engaged in Spellcard battles. The fortune teller is an outlier, someone that posed a significant threat to Gensokyo and someone who Reimu would be remiss not to execute. Utsuho threatened the entire world, while the fortune teller threatened the balance of power between humans and youkai in Gensokyo. It’s interesting how she’d take fortune teller more seriously, but I’d say pretty in line with her duties as Hakurei Shrine Maiden.

Reimu does not always follow his rules, an example of this is when she killed Yuyuko and she was resurrected. If she was resurrected it means she actually died, and Yuyuko doesn't have a self-destructive fighting style like Mokou so you can't use that excuse, even her spell card resurrection Butterfly clearly says that she resurrects from the dead. Reimu killed her

And furthermore, Reimu also unconsciously breaks her rules sometimes, Reimu thought she was holding back but Mamizou say that it wasn't like that, so she could have killed Yuyuko by accident, but it could also have been on purpose. Reimu just doesn't always follow her rules.

I don’t see the difference. It’s the exact same fight, and only goes to further the idea that Mokou frequently self destructs. I suppose this might help illustrate a difference, although it’s strange that only one of her spellcards features her defining combat strategy.

It's not my fault you can't see the difference lol, they clearly destroy her by shooting her until she explodes, and in the second clip I showed she self-destructs when time runs out

understand

First clip: They shoot her and destroy her

Second clip: time runs out and self-destructs

It's not the same lol

Honestly it just makes more sense for me. One answer goes through a lot less mental gymnastics (Why fight Mokou seriously? Why abandon the commonly practiced spellcard rules?) and is just very consistent with Mokou’s character.

Seriously why i have to repeat what I already said

They fight Mokou seriously because she is immortal, and if she can't die then there is no reason to hold back (Youmu even says this, but I won't pass the scan a third time because you should have already seen it lol), plus Mokou also fights without holding back, and if someone who doesn't hold back attacks you then the fair thing would be to attack her without holding back too


(Edit: misspelled words)

 

[Quibster]

They fight Mokou seriously because she is immortal, and if she can't die then there is no reason to hold back (Youmu even says this, but I won't pass the scan a third time because you should have already seen it lol), plus Mokou also fights without holding back, and if someone who doesn't hold back attacks you then the fair thing would be to attack her without holding back too

Can you please elaborate why Youmu saying she's using her full power is of any importance or weight here? You've brought up Youmu, arbitrarily, dozens of times at this point. Is it some kind of silver bullet to you? I'm confused.

 

[Quibster]

Even moreso confused because Youmu cannot harm Mokou with her attacks that sever one's cycle of reincarnation via her sword slashes; namely because Mokou is also separated from the cycle of Nirvana (i.e, reincarnation). Of course Youmu would need to exert herself more, yet that doesn't imply she needs to break the rules to win.

As EasyMode pointed out; the spellcards are winnable and even documented as spellcards used in a spellcard duel. This is not an argument, it's a matter of fact. And this is indeed a spellcard duel. You're running way too far with the "holding back" statement to try and justify a supposed break in the rules; against hard documented scans and evidence that are concrete. I've already outlined by reasons previously, and I see no reason to drag this point out longer.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Can you please elaborate why Youmu saying she's using her full power is of any importance or weight here? You've brought up Youmu, arbitrarily, dozens of times at this point. Is it some kind of silver bullet to you? I'm confused.

I thought it was already clear...

Youmu said that she had used his full power, and also Yuyuko asked him if she had holding back and Youmu said no, this means that she used all his AP against Mokou and also destroyed his body several times

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Even moreso confused because Youmu cannot harm Mokou with her attacks that sever one's cycle of reincarnation via her sword slashes; namely because Mokou is also separated from the cycle of Nirvana (i.e, reincarnation). Of course Youmu would need to exert herself more, yet that doesn't imply she needs to break the rules to win.

As EasyMode pointed out; the spellcards are winnable and even documented as spellcards used in a spellcard duel. This is not an argument, it's a matter of fact. And this is indeed a spellcard duel. You're running way too far with the "holding back" statement to try and justify a supposed break in the rules; against hard documented scans and evidence that are concrete. I've already outlined by reasons previously, and I see no reason to drag this point out longer.

Youmu did break a rule, she didn't hold back and used all her AP against Mokou. In spell card battles you must hold back your power/AP or else you will kill your opponent. And as I said before, only the rule of holding back is being violated, they still continue
the other rules such as winnable spells, beautiful patterns, etc.

 

[Quibster]

Youmu said that she had used his full power, and also Yuyuko asked him if she had holding back and Youmu said no, this means that she used all his AP against Mokou and also destroyed his body several times

This was discussed on the last page in context; and we've already gone over that Mokou self-rebirths constantly as part of her fighting style here;

Striking strength scales to durability, AP does not. I've also previously pointed out how she takes advantage of her immortality in the fighting games via self-immolating/rebirthing. Marisa also outright states that Mokou "dies" and resurrects constantly (from Grimoire of Marisa).

We know that Mokou is destroyed constantly, and that her spell card, "Resurrection" is her Regeneration at play. This is directly derivative of both the Hourai Elixir and her design being themed after a phoenix. Pheonixes ressurect after their death, much like how Mokou "ressurects" after each time her spell card is overcome. In fact, it's moreso relevant because we know she "grows in strength with each rebirth". You can easily argue that her self-rebirthing/immolating here is part of her fighting style, rather than the characters destroying her each time with raw AP. The fighting games and databooks even support this.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

This was discussed on the last page in context; and we've already gone over that Mokou self-rebirths constantly as part of her fighting style here;

Why do I have to keep answering things I already answered?

 

[Quibster]

Youmu did break a rule, she didn't hold back and used all her AP against Mokou. In spell card battles you must hold back your power/AP or else you will kill your opponent.

Can you show which rule she broke?

Your claim that Youmu broke a rule lacks support because the core principle of spell card battles is not about holding back power, but rather about demonstrating beauty and skill in combat. While each combatant is encouraged to refrain from using lethal force, the rules do not explicitly state that using all of one's power (AP) is prohibited. And again, using your full power does not imply lethal force in a spellcard duel. Instead, the emphasis is on the creativity and elegance of the battle.

Therefore, Youmu's approach can be seen as within the spirit of the rules, as there is no clear regulation preventing the full use of her AP if it is executed in a manner consistent with a spell card duel. It's really simple.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Can you show which rule she broke?

Your claim that Youmu broke a rule lacks support because the core principle of spell card battles is not about holding back power, but rather about demonstrating beauty and skill in combat. While each combatant is encouraged to refrain from using lethal force, the rules do not explicitly state that using all of one's power (AP) is prohibited. And again, using your full power does not imply lethal force in a spellcard duel. Instead, the emphasis is on the creativity and elegance of the battle.

Therefore, Youmu's approach can be seen as within the spirit of the rules, as there is no clear regulation preventing the full use of her AP if it is executed in a manner consistent with a spell card duel. It's really simple.

Obviously they have to hold back their AP (using non-lethal attacks)

for example Reimu and Cirno fight in a spell card battle, Reimu can hit Cirno and Cirno can survive, if she wasn't holding back her AP then literally
Reimu beats Cirno with one kick, violating the purpose of spell card battles, which is to allow the weakest to face the strongest in non-lethal combats where strength does not matter.

For this reason it is impossible to be allowed to use all your AP in a spell card battle, it would literally give you an advantage over the weakest and could cause you to kill someone else. Youmu did not hold back and used all his power, therefore he applied lethal AP on
Mokou and broke this rule

And what you said about using all your power only means beauty and skill and not lethal force, I won't explain it again because I literally already answered it twice with a very long text, please read lol

 

[Quibster]

And what you said about using all your power only means beauty and skill and not lethal force, I won't explain it again because I literally already answered it twice with a very long text, please read lol

I've already reviewed your arguments many times, and I respectfully disagree. Introducing this new, sporadic argument about Reimu and Cirno's fight feels unproductive for this CRT. Not only do I find your points unconvincing, but I also believe that your understanding of how spell card duels operate is fundamentally flawed. It seems we are at an impasse.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

I've already reviewed your arguments many times, and I respectfully disagree. Introducing this new, sporadic argument about Reimu and Cirno's fight feels unproductive for this CRT. Not only do I find your points unconvincing, but I also believe that your understanding of how spell card duels operate is fundamentally flawed. It seems we are at an impasse.

You have seen my arguments but you do not answer them all directly and you do not say why you think they are wrong without saying something that I have not answered before.

The example of Reimu and Cirno explains why they are holding back their AP, If Reimu were allowed to use all her AP then she would knock out Cirno with a single finger, violating the purpose of spell cards which is to prohibit the system of only strongest have the right to rule, and also allowing the weakest to be able to face the strongest in battles where only beauty and not strength matters. You also didn't answer why this example is wrong, you only say that it is unproductive and that's it

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

By your logic, this is like a game of
chess where strategy is the only important thing, but the players become dumber and stupids on purpose just because ""they hold back their power, and power is strategy, and when they don't hold back themselves it means that now they do use their brain to make strategys"" ._.

Because that’s what Spellcard battles are, and it’s exactly my point. The whole point of them is to remove the absolute dominance youkai have. They can’t win with brute force in Spellcard battles. Spellcard battles are about meaning and beauty in your attacks, and the more skillful opponent in that regard is the victor. So, yes, skill is the only thing that matters.

Youmu did break a rule, she didn't hold back and used all her AP against Mokou. In spell card battles you must hold back your power/AP or else you will kill your opponent. And as I said before, only the rule of holding back is being violated, they still continue
the other rules such as winnable spells, beautiful patterns, etc.

Youmu did not break a rule. This just isn’t possible. If Youmu broke a rule, and if Mokou was going all out, they would not have engaged in a Spellcard battle. They made their attacks purposefully winnable and dodgable. This is a fact: their battle is shown to involve Spellcards and Mokou’s Spellcards (seen only in IN) are even described in the Grimoire of Marisa.

Reimu does not always follow his rules, an example of this is when she killed Yuyuko and she was resurrected. If she was resurrected it means she actually died, and Yuyuko doesn't have a self-destructive fighting style like Mokou so you can't use that excuse, even her spell card resurrection Butterfly clearly says that she resurrects from the dead. Reimu killed her

And furthermore, Reimu also unconsciously breaks her rules sometimes, Reimu thought she was holding back but Mamizou say that it wasn't like that, so she could have killed Yuyuko by accident, but it could also have been on purpose. Reimu just doesn't always follow her rules.

Reimu did not kill Yuyuko. Ressurection Butterfly, as the name implies (10%-80% Reflowering) is the partial unsealing of the Saigyou Ayakashi. After Yuyuko’s defeat the tree partially flowered and the seal was partially broken. This means that Yuyuko’s soul (being sealed alongside the Saigyou) was also partially resurrected. The Spellcard is fighting Yuyuko’s soul as she attempts to exhaust the collected spring, hence her intangibility during the attack.

Again, for the Mamizou thing, Reimu wasn’t holding back in the context of Spellcard battles. The battle was portrayed as a Spellcard battle in much the same way as Mokou’s was. There’s no reason to think otherwise.

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

Also sorry if I sound rude or condescending. Just trying to communicate my point here. : )