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Touhou Discussion Thread 3 ⌈Eternal Fantasy Edition⌋

Gods in touhou are confusing.

So all gods have two keys but shouldn't there be three forms (avatar, "true form" and primordial form)?

When a primordial god earns a name, they become an idea ("true form"). After becoming an idea, they create avatars to interact with the physical world. That means only their "true form" is supposed to have AE, and it is stated that they can multiply infinitely as an idea.

When Marisa asks if Kanako could split herself, Reimu says that a god with a body can only split their spirit but in vs matches gods are treated like they can clone themselves (idk if that would make a difference but Im curious).
And then there are divine spirits. They are stated to be the essence of gods and they can multiply. Soooo doesn't this mean Kanako could clone herself since she is a divine spirit herself?? But again, Kanako is a god with a body.
Are normal gods and gods with a body supposed to be different or are they referring to their avatars?

Aside from that, are divine spirit supposed to be this "true form" since they are both incorporeal and can multiply/split?

Maybe this is my lack of knowledge about vsb hax or my English skillz but I find it confusing.
Also what the heck is "primordial god" this ain't God of War 🗿
 
AdamHkureiJanitor said:
Gods in touhou are confusing.

So all gods have two keys but shouldn't there be three forms (avatar, "true form" and primordial form)?

When a primordial god earns a name, they become an idea ("true form"). After becoming an idea, they create avatars to interact with the physical world. That means only their "true form" is supposed to have AE, and it is stated that they can multiply infinitely as an idea.

When Marisa asks if Kanako could split herself, Reimu says that a god with a body can only split their spirit but in vs matches gods are treated like they can clone themselves (idk if that would make a difference but Im curious).
And then there are divine spirits. They are stated to be the essence of gods and they can multiply. Soooo doesn't this mean Kanako could clone herself since she is a divine spirit herself?? But again, Kanako is a god with a body.
Are normal gods and gods with a body supposed to be different or are they referring to their avatars?

Aside from that, are divine spirit supposed to be this "true form" since they are both incorporeal and can multiply/split?

Maybe this is my lack of knowledge about vsb hax or my English skillz but I find it confusing.
Also what the heck is "primordial god" this ain't God of War 🗿
Click to expand...
Yeah, the god pages are in a poor state. Having 3 keys for the gods makes sense, and you are right that only the divine spirit of a god has the funny infinite duplication (not like it'd make it non-combat applicable, but still).

Also, Kanako is likely a different kind of divine spirit, since they can be divided into 3 categories; What exists before gods (like Junko or the divine spirits in TD), the soul or "essence" of a god, or a human who has turned into a god through an excess of faith (like Kanako). Splitting this up will be pretty confusing, I imagine, made even more confusing by how god avatars can still use the powers possessed by their divine spirits (eg; they can split their divine spirit while acting as an avatar, and the "Ara' and "Nigi" of the divine spirit are shown through the blessings and curses that the god avatar bestows to their worshipers).

And yeah, "primordial god" is a stupid name. It should be changed to nameless god.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Also, Kanako is likely a different kind of divine spirit, since they can be divided into 3 categories; What exists before gods (like Junko or the divine spirits in TD), the soul or "essence" of a god, or a human who has turned into a god through an excess of faith (like Kanako).
Click to expand...
Ok this makes MUCH more sense now. I can finally rest knowing Hecatia's ability is unique!
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Not anymore, no. Cirno's ice feats, which serve as the basis for low tier scaling, are consistently above that (9-A as a lowball from freezing humans solid). Weaker fairies can consistently survive mid-air lightning strikes, which are 8-C.
Click to expand...
Dang it. Just want to know if there’s any good characters to use from touhou. Like very matchable ones.
 
Yo, a friend asked me to ask people from this forum that are knowledgeable about Touhou to answer his questions. He wants to know why Hecatia is the strongest. He probably meant why Hecatia is the strongest in the lore regardless of word of God saying she is the strongest. Since ya know, for a casual Touhou fan all they know about Hecatia is that she has the power of having 3 bodies and that's it, nothing OP.

Fprqtr2XwAIjiOx
 
Deidalius said:
Yo, a friend asked me to ask people from this forum that are knowledgeable about Touhou to answer his questions. He wants to know why Hecatia is the strongest. He probably meant why Hecatia is the strongest in the lore regardless of word of God saying she is the strongest. Since ya know, for a casual Touhou fan all they know about Hecatia is that she has the power of having 3 bodies and that's it, nothing OP.

Fprqtr2XwAIjiOx
Click to expand...
Besides the statement by ZUN saying she’s the strongest, all we have to go off of is the fact she’s the goddess of Hell, one of the largest and most major realms in all of Touhou, giving her incredibly high status among gods and such. She’s also comparable to or stronger to Junko, who is a ******* monster canonically.
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
Besides the statement by ZUN saying she’s the strongest, all we have to go off of is the fact she’s the goddess of Hell, one of the largest and most major realms in all of Touhou, giving her incredibly high status among gods and such. She’s also comparable to or stronger to Junko, who is a ******* monster canonically.
Click to expand...
What else did Junko do other than murder a god?
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Touhou characters are basically unmatchable because you either have ridiculous smurf bullshit, ridiculous immortality/regen, or both (plus spirit manipulation, which is a near-universal wincon).
Click to expand...
Unless you play it smart by choosing the opponents for 2hu chars, that's what i'm doing and so far? Absolute rad matchups
Remind me to finishing off that Tenshi vs Hades match
 
Hate to break it to you all, but WoG is extremely unreliable when it comes to scaling (tfw you're "too strong for the games" but still get curbstomped by a ******* child). Hecatia is a high tier, that much is undeniable, but Violet Detector and Okina's own claims would place her at slightly above or about equal to sage tiers like Yukari and, well, Okina. Granted, that's only like 1-2 steps removed from the highest end of the scaling chain, but it's not quite as high as some people would have you believe.

Unrelated, but I think Touhou 19 will mark a new era in terms of thematics for Touhou. We had 1-5, then 6-9 (marked by a significantly more down to earth and pessimistic sort of tone, especially in terms of real-world views), 10-13.5 (marked by the religious war), and 14-18.5 (marked by a lot more explicit social commentary, both in the games and print works), so we're right on the cusp of when ZUN usually decides to pick a new direction for the series, that being every 3-4 mainline games.

Furthermore, both the recent major plot threads from 17 and 18 have been wrapped up, so unless ZUN is sticking with the more openly political theming of modern Touhou for a while (which I wouldn't mind, honestly), we'll probably see another "fresh start" akin to what EoSD was to MS, or what MoF was to IN/PoFV, or what DDC was to HM.
 
Also, Junko would have no real reason to scale above regular nameless god scaling; She has no external power source that I'm aware of that would bring her above that baseline. What makes her so dangerous is her purification, the nature of which is a guaranteed instant kill in-verse, no exceptions. AP has nothing to do with it.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Hate to break it to you all, but WoG is extremely unreliable when it comes to scaling (tfw you're "too strong for the games" but still get curbstomped by a ******* child).
Click to expand...
Okina got defeated a by a f***ing "Super Saiyan Chocolate Iceshake" Cirno will always be the funniest thing ever lmao
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Hecatia is a high tier, that much is undeniable, but Violet Detector and Okina's own claims would place her at slightly above or about equal to sage tiers like Yukari and, well, Okina. Granted, that's only like 1-2 steps removed from the highest end of the scaling chain, but it's not quite as high as some people would have you believe.
Click to expand...
It's also the fact that Hecatia is from the outside of Gensokyo, which might imply that the non-japanese/chinese gods are likely equal or a bit stronger than them, but that's my guess
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Unrelated, but I think Touhou 19 will mark a new era in terms of thematics for Touhou. We had 1-5, then 6-9 (marked by a significantly more down to earth and pessimistic sort of tone, especially in terms of real-world views), 10-13.5 (marked by the religious war), and 14-18.5 (marked by a lot more explicit social commentary, both in the games and print works), so we're right on the cusp of when ZUN usually decides to pick a new direction for the series, that being every 3-4 mainline games.

Furthermore, both the recent major plot threads from 17 and 18 have been wrapped up, so unless ZUN is sticking with the more openly political theming of modern Touhou for a while (which I wouldn't mind, honestly), we'll probably see another "fresh start" akin to what EoSD was to MS, or what MoF was to IN/PoFV, or what DDC was to HM.
Click to expand...
You know, it will be better if ZUN start the fresh start at Touhou 20, considering that even from my view, 100th Black Market isn't that much of grand finale like MS, IN/PoFV, and HM, furthermore it's likely that the animal spirits realm saga aren't that much wrapped hence my comment above about it (about the scenario about the WBaWC MC have a alliance with Keiki to resolve and aid the human spirit revolt, the last patriach family leader, and most importanly: Yachie get what she deserve#slapped)
I don't count SakiMiko relationship and possibly the handmans of Patriach families becaude this aspect can be explored more in the new start of Touhou
but i don't mind either if ZUN start the fresh start right off the bat in Touhou 19
 
Kisaragi_Megumi said:
You know, it will be better if ZUN start the fresh start at Touhou 20, considering that even from my view, 100th Black Market isn't that much of grand finale like MS, IN/PoFV, and HM, furthermore it's likely that the animal spirits realm saga aren't that much wrapped hence my comment above about it (about the scenario about the WBaWC MC have a alliance with Keiki to resolve and aid the human spirit revolt, the last patriach family leader, and most importanly: Yachie get what she deserve#slapped)
I don't count SakiMiko relationship and possibly the handmans of Patriach families becaude this aspect can be explored more in the new start of Touhou
but i don't mind either if ZUN start the fresh start right off the bat in Touhou 19
Click to expand...
You're right about the grand finale perspective; IN was intended to be the end of the series and it does feel like it in some respects, and other games have a similar endgame feeling to them, while 18.5 kinda didn't. However, I'll maintain that we don't need a resolution to the ongoing events of 17, since ULiL already established that not every game needs an open and shut ending. In fact, this dates as far back as PCB with the boundary of life and death remaining unrepaired, so it's just a constant of the series that some plot threads go nowhere, and they really don't need to go anywhere.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
You're right about the grand finale perspective; IN was intended to be the end of the series and it does feel like it in some respects, and other games have a similar endgame feeling to them, while 18.5 kinda didn't. However, I'll maintain that we don't need a resolution to the ongoing events of 17, since ULiL already established that not every game needs an open and shut ending. In fact, this dates as far back as PCB with the boundary of life and death remaining unrepaired, so it's just a constant of the series that some plot threads go nowhere, and they really don't need to go anywhere.
Click to expand...
Or it could be that ZUN is forgor about PCB plot
As for ULiL maybe it can be used as a basis for Sumireko advancing to her development, maybe because i'm still inhale that hope about "Sumireko join the MC Gang" dosis lel
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Mayumi, Yoshika, Koishi, and Suwako would all be good contenders, though I highly doubt it'll get passed regardless (I brought up 3/4 of those previously and it didn't change much).
Click to expand...
You might have a second chance if you list it as simply a feat that the hax can do, you just have to expand on the ability descriptions in the Spirit Manipulation page. So something like:

Soul Manipulation (...The ability is potent enough to affect soulless beings such as Yoshika) or Empathic Manipulation (... which can even affect beings such as Koishi, who lacks a mind, Yoshika, who can't think or feel, or Mayumi, who lacks desires)

I read through the CRT as well and I'm surprised that that part wasn't accepted, especially when a lot of people agreed that it was just how potent the hax was. The issue people had with Immunity Negation is that you have to straight up "nullify" the source that causes them to lack that attribute in the first place. For example, a character giving a soulless being a soul and killing them from there. But what we have are Touhou characters bypassing it and affecting them through another way with some verse shenanigans.

This isn't new, there's surprisingly a lot of characters that can soul hax soulless beings and mind hax mindless beings, fiction is fiction after all. The people who were arguing for hax potency didn't give you a few examples from other series so here's some from the top of my head:
  • Characters from Star Wars can mind hax robots and literal rocks
  • Disembodied Thought mind haxxing and possessing literal galaxies and 1 dimensional objects
  • Cthulhu (Cthulhu Saves the World) can mindhax mindless and inanimate objects
  • Sans soul haxxing and dura negging Flowey, who doesn't have a soul
  • Digimon characters were accepted for a while that they can soul hax soulless beings (digital), but it has been debunked that they actually have souls.
None of these characters have Immunity Negation listed but they have shown feats that they can affect them regardless and they list said feat in either the P&A, NA/T, or somewhere else. It wouldn't pass as Immunity Negation but it's better than nothing.

I ain't gonna lie tho, Touhou characters having soul hax resistance neg + feats of soul haxxing soulless beings is broken as hell
 
GeliumE said:
You might have a second chance if you list it as simply a feat that the hax can do, you just have to expand on the ability descriptions in the Spirit Manipulation page. So something like:

Soul Manipulation (...The ability is potent enough to affect soulless beings such as Yoshika) or Empathic Manipulation (... which can even affect beings such as Koishi, who lacks a mind, Yoshika, who can't think or feel, or Mayumi, who lacks desires)

I read through the CRT as well and I'm surprised that that part wasn't accepted, especially when a lot of people agreed that it was just how potent the hax was. The issue people had with Immunity Negation is that you have to straight up "nullify" the source that causes them to lack that attribute in the first place. For example, a character giving a soulless being a soul and killing them from there. But what we have are Touhou characters bypassing it and affecting them through another way with some verse shenanigans.

This isn't new, there's surprisingly a lot of characters that can soul hax soulless beings and mind hax mindless beings, fiction is fiction after all. The people who were arguing for hax potency didn't give you a few examples from other series so here's some from the top of my head:
  • Characters from Star Wars can mind hax robots and literal rocks
  • Disembodied Thought mind haxxing and possessing literal galaxies and 1 dimensional objects
  • Cthulhu (Cthulhu Saves the World) can mindhax mindless and inanimate objects
  • Sans soul haxxing and dura negging Flowey, who doesn't have a soul
  • Digimon characters were accepted for a while that they can soul hax soulless beings (digital), but it has been debunked that they actually have souls.
None of these characters have Immunity Negation listed but they have shown feats that they can affect them regardless and they list said feat in either the P&A, NA/T, or somewhere else. It wouldn't pass as Immunity Negation but it's better than nothing.

I ain't gonna lie tho, Touhou characters having soul hax resistance neg + feats of soul haxxing soulless beings is broken as hell
Click to expand...
Hm, you may be right actually. Bringing up those examples would probably help a lot, so maybe I'll make a small CRT for spirit manipulation (also including an explanation of it being a UES and adding creation/weapon creation).

However, resistance negation is a relic from when I pushed for immunity negation and has no real reason to be there,
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Hate to break it to you all, but WoG is extremely unreliable when it comes to scaling (tfw you're "too strong for the games" but still get curbstomped by a ******* child). Hecatia is a high tier, that much is undeniable, but Violet Detector and Okina's own claims would place her at slightly above or about equal to sage tiers like Yukari and, well, Okina. Granted, that's only like 1-2 steps removed from the highest end of the scaling chain, but it's not quite as high as some people would have you believe.

Unrelated, but I think Touhou 19 will mark a new era in terms of thematics for Touhou. We had 1-5, then 6-9 (marked by a significantly more down to earth and pessimistic sort of tone, especially in terms of real-world views), 10-13.5 (marked by the religious war), and 14-18.5 (marked by a lot more explicit social commentary, both in the games and print works), so we're right on the cusp of when ZUN usually decides to pick a new direction for the series, that being every 3-4 mainline games.

Furthermore, both the recent major plot threads from 17 and 18 have been wrapped up, so unless ZUN is sticking with the more openly political theming of modern Touhou for a while (which I wouldn't mind, honestly), we'll probably see another "fresh start" akin to what EoSD was to MS, or what MoF was to IN/PoFV, or what DDC was to HM.
Click to expand...
No way, the lunarian sisters got stomped by a child???? I am in disbelief, when did that happen???
 
Deidalius said:
No way, the lunarian sisters got stomped by a child???? I am in disbelief, when did that happen???
Click to expand...
Remilia tossed Yorihime around like a rag doll and left her with injuries that persisted for the rest of the fight. Remilia only lost because Yorhime can summon the sun, which I shouldn't have to explain is an easy way of beating a vampire regardless of AP gaps.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Remilia tossed Yorihime around like a rag doll and left her with injuries that persisted for the rest of the fight. Remilia only lost because Yorhime can summon the sun, which I shouldn't have to explain is an easy way of beating a vampire regardless of AP gaps.
Click to expand...
I mean, Remilia ain't exactly just a child. She is one of Gensokyo's strongest habitats, being rag-dolled by her is not exactly something to be shamed off. I thought you meant that Yorihime got humiliated by a weak character, I am glad that's not the case since she is the best girl.
 
Deidalius said:
I mean, Remilia ain't exactly just a child. She is one of Gensokyo's strongest habitats, being rag-dolled by her is not exactly something to be shamed off. I thought you meant that Yorihime got humiliated by a weak character, I am glad that's not the case since she is the best girl.
Click to expand...
Remilia is not one of the strongest people in Gensokyo, she gets choked out like a bitch by Reimu in EoSD and is inferior to Flandre (which makes her weaker than Marisa, Okina, everyone in the animal realm... basically every other high tier).
 
So I missed the conversation about game mechanics but wouldn't POFV just make the cast Flandre? (spirit self destruct)
And didn't urban legends stated to "start to fade" by Byakuren or smth?
 
AdamHkureiJanitor said:
So I missed the conversation about game mechanics but wouldn't POFV just make the cast Flandre? (spirit self destruct)
And didn't urban legends stated to "start to fade" by Byakuren or smth?
Click to expand...
Yeah, passive soul destruction is pretty funny to say the least.

Urban Legends fading is news to me though, since AoCF, WaHH, and FS all affirm the incident never ended.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Yeah, passive soul destruction is pretty funny to say the least.

Urban Legends fading is news to me though, since AoCF, WaHH, and FS all affirm the incident never ended.
Click to expand...
Reisen:
Much appreciated.
The incident is sure to settle down
in the near future, as well.

Byakuren:
Well if that's the case,
I'd better enjoy my urban legend
while I still can!

All right! Time to take the ol' girl
out for a spin tonight!
(ULİL ps4 version, Reisen's story)

These were the statements and ps4 version is supposed to act as a prologue to AOCF.
Maybe that "near future" could be after AOCF.
Idk if the release dates of the said manga's chapters could disprove that.
pls no urban legend nerf 😭
 
AdamHkureiJanitor said:
Reisen:
Much appreciated.
The incident is sure to settle down
in the near future, as well.

Byakuren:
Well if that's the case,
I'd better enjoy my urban legend
while I still can!

All right! Time to take the ol' girl
out for a spin tonight!
(ULİL ps4 version, Reisen's story)

These were the statements and ps4 version is supposed to act as a prologue to AOCF.
Maybe that "near future" could be after AOCF.
Idk if the release dates of the said manga's chapters could disprove that.
pls no urban legend nerf 😭
Click to expand...
Yeahhhhh, considering it's been years since ULiL and there's no sign of the urban legends stopping, I think Reisen just might've been full of shit. Even if they would naturally disappear over time, that obviously hasn't happened yet, so we wouldn't have to remove stuff reliant on urban legends anyways.
 
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