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Tien Shinhan, Krillin and possibly Yamcha should be upgraded to "at least High 5-A"
- Thread starter Vizer04
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It occurred after the Gero blasted the heck out of the place. What are you trying to argue?
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One thing that came to mind right now is the possibility of Kikoho scaling to Tier 4 during the Android/Cell Saga. This doesn't involve scaling to Cell as it didn't do any actual damage to Cell iirc, but it does involve him. It comes from the fact that it had a greater effect on Cell than Piccolo's Light Grenade did. Imperfect Cell took Piccolo's full power Light Grenade and it had no effect on him, while Semi-Perfect Cell was being pinned down and pushed back by Tien's Kikoho and couldn't escape it. So Tiens Kikoho would have to have had more power and force to it than Piccolo's Light Grenade (I think).
This isn't part of the revision, but it came to mind.
This isn't part of the revision, but it came to mind.
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I guess that's true, so that possibility is out of the equation. That's fine, everything else stands though.Goku's punch was serious, and Gero was unfazed by it (much less impressed by it)
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I do agree with the Kikoho scaling above LG, I thought that was accepted here but I guess not.
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Yeah the decrease in speed was indeed the muscle mass I think we all agree with that.
The statement made by Vegeta was “If my power increase doesnt my speed increase along with it”
By the definition of along with, it would indeed be a 1:1 rate and I dont see any reason to disregard this as there is nothing contradicting it.
You understand the possibility of Ginyu being suppressed was high at that moment?
As stated 120,000 is his TOP power level and its even said he can control his power at will meaning hes not always at 120k. Also it being his TOP implies hes not at that level at the moment anyways so Goku was faster than a suppressed Ginyu.
Not only that, but Ginyu thought that this “faster” than himself Goku was holding back and it was best for him to stop underestimating ginyu which implies Ginyu was indeed holding back.
Ginyu was confident in fighting a stronger and faster Goku.
So this alone isn’t enough reasoning to say that this statement is inconsistent and doesnt work.
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That example wouldnt work here at all because it is still speed. Lol
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this link is broken…
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Most of your links are broken and dont work :straightface:
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Lol hey how did u do the lines thingy
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... Errors have been made.
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Ok well whenever you get the chance try resending the links otherwise your argument is kinda oof. You can also tell me the chapter I have access to the manga
DivineAura44
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Except the example wasn't made for travel speed. So...
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I changed the links.
GodlyCharmander
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Very pointless discussion, if a character isn't specified to be focused on power or speed, you shouldn't assume stuff. It's as simple as that.
Tien is a balanced fighter, just like Vegeta and Goku, if he is faster by a large margin than 3,000,000 PL Goku and Post-Zenkai Vegeta, he is more than likely stronger than them too, otherwise Vegeta's statement about PL has no weight.
Tien is a balanced fighter, just like Vegeta and Goku, if he is faster by a large margin than 3,000,000 PL Goku and Post-Zenkai Vegeta, he is more than likely stronger than them too, otherwise Vegeta's statement about PL has no weight.
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I noted contradictions but there's something that bugs me about that scan. Do you know where it's from? I found a different translation (I linked it earlier and changed that too), that's why I'm asking.
Ginyu also stated that he can't imagine Goku having a battle power which is greater than 85,000. Ginyu was extremely shocked at Goku's speed, similar to how he was when he saw Goku use Kaioken except to a lesser extent, so he did mean it when he said that. That being said, if Ginyu was far stronger and durable, there's no point in Goku's power-up. So my reasoning should work.
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I fail to see what this proves/refutes
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And they are still broken
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The only contradiction that I have seen were G3 Trunks and the Ginyu thing (what I have just went over) other than that I do not see any contradictions. Please quote them.
The translation is from Viz, what other scan did you show?
Ginyu already guessing on what Goku’s power level would cap out at refutes nothing at all. It doesnt change the fact that Ginyu was suppressed (i proved this) and that he was confident in fighting an even stronger Goku as he noticed he was indeed suppressed (without the kaioken). It makes no sense for ginyu to be extremely shocked at his speed and for him to be faster than him even at his max state (ginyu wasnt at max power) if he was confident and felt that goku was downplaying him if he was truly slower than Goku. That doesnt line up and isnt what the story sets out.
“That being said, if Ginyu was far stronger and durable, there's no point in Goku's power-up.”
What exactly do you mean by this?
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You know its possible (and easier)for you to give me the chapter so I can find the scan
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I don't think "along with" would have to be 1:1, if you want to be technical, it can just mean that when the power (level) increases the speed does too. When the power increases by 1, the speed can increase by some amount that doesn't have to be constant. I guess that is a nitpick though, probably won't fly here.
I said that in my logic, even though Goku would be faster than Ginyu at max speed, it won't matter since Ginyu would be superior otherwise.
I also changed the links to Discord links so they should work, don't click on the already quoted text from previous replies, since they have the original broken link. Sorry about that, I didn't think it would be like this.
About this, didn't Krillin stand back because he was scared? I don't think that necessarily proves that Tien is stronger.
Also, shouldn't we get staff input?
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I never called Krillin a coward, but you can tell that Krillin was extremely scared. As for Tien, why would Tien stand back? Tien has never been like that, he even went to fight against Boo and Cell despite standing no chance. He went to fight here to help them out, even though he knew that he was practically useless against them. I guess in this case, Krillin was kind of acting out of character.
DivineAura44
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The argument is about combat speed. So it doesn't refute the argument.
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I do not agree with the OP. Goku wasn't really going all out or wasn't serious during this situation; not to mention there was also the heart virus thing coming later. Tien, Krillin, and Yamcha have no bearing to be above Frieza's 1st form let alone comparable to Goku was in Frieza saga. Yamcha was only though to be roughly as strong Goku was in Saiyan Saga with the Kaioken x4 being generous. It seems a like a weird loophole reasoning for an upgrade.
DivineAura44
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Wanna remind you that he also calculated Goku's growth as well. It's very heavily implied that he was gonna be as strong as in the CellSaga but became so strong because Trunks told Goku about the threat and they trained. So basically they thought that Base Yamcha in the present timeline = Base Goku in the future timeline. Which would in fact make the "weakest" character be able to scale.
DivineAura44
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And Tien and Krillin should scale above that.
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They couldn't have known how strong Goku grew in Frieza saga because they did not analyze that.
DivineAura44
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They said that measured to the extreme. Even if they miscalculated they should have calced him to atleast Frieza Saga.
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Thoughts on this @DarkDragonMedeus ?
Nullflowerblush
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He measured Goku's hypothetical power by projecting the "most extreme rate of improvement for an adult combatant". He does not know about their Accelerated Development or their Reactive Power Level
Ignoring the fact that Dr. Gero is from the present, the only reason Android 19 surmised that Yamcha was Goku was because his power exceeded normal humans; "This guy's power has surpassed all known human limits. He must be Goku."
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