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Tien and co. back to 5-C (Dragon Ball Revision)

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CryoTheMayo said:
  • Goku = Piccolo roughly
  • Kamehameha multiplies power
  • If Super Kamehameha ~ MAX Kamehameha they multiply power to a similar degree (Against Raditz it's a little over 2x power level)
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we don't know how many times 2x PL is for actual power, PL is not linear after all
 
omegabronic said:
we don't know how many times 2x PL is for actual power, PL is not linear after all
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I brought up 2x Power Level to give the amp a number that could be used to compare other cases (For example, Kaio-Ken levels against Vegeta or Tien's Shin Kikoko against Cell) and for sake of comprehensiveness.

In regards to context, as stated in the OP Piccolo survived a Super Kamehameha from Goku (who he was relative to). So it seems like that's a case where you can survive an attack 2x your own PL.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
OP is not arguing that at all
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I am aware, but I saw it mentioned in other places in this thread, and I wanted to give my opinion. That, or I just misinterpreted what others were saying; Chemistry tends to leave you brain drained.
 
Da3ggman said:
I am aware, but I saw it mentioned in other places in this thread, and I wanted to give my opinion. That, or I just misinterpreted what others were saying; Chemistry tends to leave you brain drained.
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Well, personally it's to my understanding that the Kikoho is meant to be superior to the Kamehameha, which presumably includes the MAX Kamehameha. And I don't think anything has said the Kikoho was matched or surpassed by the Super Kamehameha. All I know is that the Kikoho is a bigger amp than the Kamehameha.

So yeah, the Kikoho shouldn't be used for scaling unless a statement comparing it to the Super Kamehameha exists.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:

BIG SUMMARY​

There are two main points being debated here. 5-C Kikoho, 5-C physicals. I'll now summarize what the main players, @Damage3245, @KingTempest, myself, @Nullflowerblush, and other users have argued for and try to create a compromise for most.​


Please read the OP before reading the summary!

5-C Kikoho​

Not much was brought up in terms of new evidence that's not already covered in the Original Post. What we know is that,
  1. El Manga Legendario states that the Kikoho is the most powerful technique in the series at that point.
  2. The manga is far more vague about it, and it's likely saying Kikoho is a better technique.
  3. The arena being destroyed gets everyone shocked as something relevantly strong. (Guides also state this)
I've found more evidence of other guides saying things similar things like the manga, but they can all be interpreted as being "better techniques", so I never included them in the debate. So these two things are the baseline of what we were working with. I'll now state each of the main players' opinion on the subject. I'll go in order of appearance.



@KingTempest's opinion
  • KingTempest agrees that Tien's Kikoho should scale to the MAX Kamehameha, full on.




@Damage3245's opinion
  • Damage acknowledges the guide's statement, but still believes 5-C should not be a full rating.​
  • Damage argues that the manga is vague, and the narrative doesn't connect the Kikoho to MP Kamehameha in any way.​
  • Damage argues that the fact the destruction of the technique is being highlighted as relevant makes Tier 8/7 more consistent for Tien.​
  • Damage's fine with "possibly 5-C" as we have a direct confirmation from a canon source. (Basically things stay as they are for Kikoho)​



Null never touched on 5-C Kikoho IIRC, so I'll skip over to my take after reading through all of this.


OP's opinion
  • I argue that the fact we have a direct confirmation should outweigh the destruction contradiction, as it's a common writing flaw of the show.
  • I argue that the guides do the same mistake with King Piccolo being highlighted as city level.
  • I argue that Kikoho always affects the same localized area, so the intensity of the destruction is going to be consistently below his AP.
  • I argue that Roshi being surprised and acting like Tien and Goku surpass him is a contradiction either way because Roshi's blasts are 5-C.
  • I argue that Kikoho should be full on 5-C.

The votes are: Possibly 5-C, Likely 5-C as a middle ground, 5-C as a high end.


Tien is stronger than MAX Power Roshi/5-C Physicals​


This started as 5-C physicals, but it quickly became a debate about scaling in general. Let's go over the evidence,
First the evidence of scaling that we know of,​
  1. Tien says, and Roshi believes that he would probably lose had the battle kept going against Tien.​
  2. Tien is aware that Roshi didn't use his full power.​
  3. Tien wasn't using his "full power" at first, but midway during the fight he does proclaim that he will use his full power against Roshi. (Thank you @Damage3245)​
  4. Dragon Ball Bouken Special states that whoever wins the match (Goku vs Tien) is the strongest in the world. (which has been argued as a just a moniker of the tournament).​
  5. While Roshi's Power Level is said to be 139 during the tournament according to the Daizenshuu and the Chouzenshuu, he jumps to 180 against King Piccolo according to Weekly Shounen Jump. Since there is no training and time skip, it's being argued that 180 is his full power during the tournament.​




Second, the evidence and counter-evidence of ki = physicals.​
  1. Several Characters have been shown to withstand charged blasts with durability alone (and were relative to their opponents)​
  2. Several Characters have been shown to be severely damaged by charged blasts after withstanding physical blows.​
  3. Most instances of measurable gaps between charged ki and physicals are measured to be 2 times or 10 times.​
  4. There are examples of charged blasts being able to damage characters that can tank the user's physical attacks without budging.​



@KingTempest's opinion
  • KingTempest argues that Tien and Roshi are dead even, and points out the chapter they fight is called "dead even", so Tien is not strong enough to face MAX Power Roshi.
  • KingTempest argues that it's ridiculous that OP is saying Tien is 5-C while fighting a Tier 8 Roshi, and that the gap cannot be that big since Roshi and Tien had a back and forth and Tien was sweating. Tien must be around Tier 8.
  • KingTempest argues that the line of Tien and Roshi is referring to Roshi holding back.
  • KingTempest points out MAX Power Roshi is not a form used for physical fighting, so there is no reason for the line to include that form.
  • KingTempest argues that MAX Power Kamehameha should not scale to Roshi's physicals, durability or AP.
  • KingTempest says Tien should stay at his current tier, and scale to normal Roshi. (Basically things stay as they are now)
  • KingTempest argues MAX Power Kamehameha is a superior version of the Kamehameha like the Super Kamehameha, so the examples of the Super Kamehameha being partly resisted are invalid.



@Damage3245's opinion
  • Damage mirrors KingTempest's opinion in most points.
  • Damage argues that physicals shouldn't scale to blasts all the time, it's a case-by-case thing.
  • Damage points out situations where blasts are clearly superior to physicals. Such as a wave piercing through a wall which could not been broken by a punch.
  • Damage says Tien should stay at his current tier, and scale to normal Roshi. (Basically things stay as they are now)



@Nullflowerblush's opinion
  • I honestly couldn't tell you, I saw him arguing for both sides and adding more context to both parties.



OP's opinion

  • I argue that Tien should surpass Roshi in every way, as we have several statements that Goku, who is equal to Tien, have surpassed Roshi. Roshi said that based on Goku's speed and strength
  • I argue that MAX Power Kamehameha is just a regular Kamehameha used by someone who has MP Roshi's level of energy, and that anyone who has equal or superior amounts of ki to him would be able to launch a regular Kamehameha at the same level.
  • I argue that Super Kamehameha is a higher multiplier of energy than a regular Kamehameha, and that it's barely is a 2.2x increase.
  • I argue that even if the physicals are inferior, it shouldn't be by a factor of million, but tens or few.
  • I argue that Tien should scale above Roshi in every way, and at least downscale from 5-C. Roshi should also downscale.

The compromises are: Tien and co stays at Tier 8 and scale above regular Roshi. Tien is possibly 5-C physically. Tien is 5-C.

So let's combine all compromises.



OPTION 1​

Tien: 5-C, higher with Kikoho.

VOTES: @Serlock_Holmes, @KLOL506, @TiltedFN​

OPTION 2​

Tien: Possibly 5-C, higher with Kikoho

VOTES: @ZoroNotZolo (either/or is fine), @CryoTheMayo​

OPTION 3​

Tien: High 8-C, 5-C with Kikoho

VOTES: @KingTempest, @ZoroNotZolo, @Nierre, @Da3ggman (either/or is fine)​

OPTION 4​

Tien: High 8-C, likely 5-C with Kikoho

VOTES: @Damage3245, @KingTempest, @Nierre, @Da3ggman (either/or is fine)​

OPTION 5​

Nothing changes (OP is rejected)

VOTES: @Damage3245, @KingTempest (either/or is fine)



We can eliminate options if you think it's unfair, please just tell me.

Also, when voting, please make a nice justification. FRAs are not welcome.​
Click to expand...
@Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @DemonGodMitchAubin @UchihaSlayer96 @Maverick_Zero_X @CrimsonStarFallen @LordGriffin1000 @Starter_Pack @Sir_Ovens

Given the importance of this thread and that you are in the Dragon Ball Supporters/Opponents/Neutrals section, I would like to know your opinion about this, the post above summarizes the arguments and options we have available to set this matter.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
How about your opinion?
Click to expand...
I don't think I can say anything that hasn't been said, and you probably wouldn't be satisfied if I simply agreed to an option without adequate argumentation, so I'll just limit myself to summon the people with voting power to decide this issue for us.

Plus I just got out of work, so I don't have the energy to say anything meaningful anyways.
 
CBslayeR said:
I like option 2

(Edit: Confused as to what Higher with Kikoho means with the High 8-C rating, would the Kikoho just be raw 5-C or would it just be High 8-C if we use the High 8-C version, don't count my vote until this gets clarified)
Click to expand...
I'm down for 2 if someone could answer my question
 
There really isn't any room for a "likely" or "possibly" when it comes to kikoho since it's verbatim stated to be the strongest attack when it was used. I think it's either option 1 or 3 only.
 
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OP, Put me on Option 1 Tien: 5-C, higher with Kikoho and Option 2 Tien: Possibly 5-C, higher with Kikoho. Those 2 options are the most logical options out of the rest. I have already proved above that Ki is A UES and how it scales with your physical stats and this wiki also treats it as such.
 
I'm going to go with 3.

Super moves blatantly push their users above their normal limits.
How far exactly is unknown; however, what is known is that, again, they scale above their users's normal limits.
At the very most, "At least High 8-C, possibly higher, 5-C with Kikoho". (Why are we using the Japanese name again?)
 
I'm going with Option 1. Ki based techniques can exceed the characters normal strenght but It shouldn't be by absurd numbers, as the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai has shown with Piccolo surviving Goku's Super Kamehameha, or Goku tanking Piccolo's Chou Bakuretsu Maha
 
After thinking it over, I think Option 1 would be fine as well. So put me down for both 1 and 2. Why? Because I don't think the MAX Kamehameha should multiply Roshi's power that massively compared to other techniques, the only technique I can think of that is anything like that is the Shin Kikoho which uses up a lot of Tien's Life Force and the normal Kikoho is already meant to be superior to the Kamehameha.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
After thinking it over, I think Option 1 would be fine as well. So put me down for both 1 and 2. Why? Because I don't think the MAX Kamehameha should multiply Roshi's power that massively compared to other techniques, the only technique I can think of that is anything like that is the Shin Kikoho which uses up a lot of Tien's Life Force and the normal Kikoho is already meant to be superior to the Kamehameha.
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Also kienzan and spirit bomb if you mean in a generic sort of way. Oh and final explosion and the kamehameha Roshi uses in ToP but I'm not sure about that one.
 
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Serlock_Holmes said:
Also kienzan and spirit bomb if you mean in a generic sort of way. Oh and final explosion and the kamehameha Roshi uses in ToP but I'm not sure about that one.
Click to expand...
Spirit Bomb uses external energy sources. Final Explosion is similar to Shin Kikoho in consuming life force for greater power. Kienzan is likely due its qualities (sharpness, which consistently bypasses durability in DB) rather than power. Roshi's 'greatest and most powerful' Kamehameha against Ganos didn't seem to even harm him, it just blew him out of the arena.

So out of those examples I'd only say Final Explosion is akin to the Shin Kikoho.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Spirit Bomb uses external energy sources. Final Explosion is similar to Shin Kikoho in consuming life force for greater power. Kienzan is likely due its qualities (sharpness, which consistently bypasses durability in DB) rather than power. Roshi's 'greatest and most powerful' Kamehameha against Ganos didn't seem to even harm him, it just blew him out of the arena.

So out of those examples I'd only say Final Explosion is akin to the Shin Kikoho.
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Was more referring to technigues that hit way above the pay grade. Maybe in a more general sense kaioken is one though it's an extra enhancement. Also yes I saw Roshi's in the wiki but I don't remeber him dying of it. Thought I just remembered wrong. Regardless yeah was mostly typing unnatural technigues than anything else. Won't clog the thread more.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Spirit Bomb uses external energy sources. Final Explosion is similar to Shin Kikoho in consuming life force for greater power. Kienzan is likely due its qualities (sharpness, which consistently bypasses durability in DB) rather than power. Roshi's 'greatest and most powerful' Kamehameha against Ganos didn't seem to even harm him, it just blew him out of the arena.

So out of those examples I'd only say Final Explosion is akin to the Shin Kikoho.
Click to expand...
Ganos was stronger thsn roshi tbf
 
omegabronic said:
Ganos was stronger thsn roshi tbf
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That's true, although I'm not sure how big the gap would be. I will say that the Kamehameha against Ganos was meant to be Roshi's most powerful in history so its amp would be much larger than the MAX Kamehameha.

The_Yellow_Topaz said:
The vote tally has been updated. We just need more relevant staff voting.
Click to expand...
Time to sit and wait for staff response.
 
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