Tien and co. back to 5-C (Dragon Ball Revision)

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

BIG SUMMARY​

There are two main points being debated here. 5-C Kikoho, 5-C physicals. I'll now summarize what the main players, @Damage3245, @KingTempest, myself, @Nullflowerblush, and other users have argued for and try to create a compromise for most.​

Please read the OP before reading the summary!

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5-C Kikoho​

Not much was brought up in terms of new evidence that's not already covered in the Original Post. What we know is that,

1. El Manga Legendario states that the Kikoho is the most powerful technique in the series at that point.
2. The manga is far more vague about it, and it's likely saying Kikoho is a better technique.
3. The arena being destroyed gets everyone shocked as something relevantly strong. (Guides also state this)

I've found more evidence of other guides saying things similar things like the manga, but they can all be interpreted as being "better techniques", so I never included them in the debate. So these two things are the baseline of what we were working with. I'll now state each of the main players' opinion on the subject. I'll go in order of appearance.

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@KingTempest's opinion

• KingTempest agrees that Tien's Kikoho should scale to the MAX Kamehameha, full on.

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@Damage3245's opinion

• Damage acknowledges the guide's statement, but still believes 5-C should not be a full rating.​
• Damage argues that the manga is vague, and the narrative doesn't connect the Kikoho to MP Kamehameha in any way.​
• Damage argues that the fact the destruction of the technique is being highlighted as relevant makes Tier 8/7 more consistent for Tien.​
• Damage's fine with "possibly 5-C" as we have a direct confirmation from a canon source. (Basically things stay as they are for Kikoho)​

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Null never touched on 5-C Kikoho IIRC, so I'll skip over to my take after reading through all of this.


OP's opinion

• I argue that the fact we have a direct confirmation should outweigh the destruction contradiction, as it's a common writing flaw of the show.
• I argue that the guides do the same mistake with King Piccolo being highlighted as city level.
• I argue that Kikoho always affects the same localized area, so the intensity of the destruction is going to be consistently below his AP.
• I argue that Roshi being surprised and acting like Tien and Goku surpass him is a contradiction either way because Roshi's blasts are 5-C.
• I argue that Kikoho should be full on 5-C.

The votes are: Possibly 5-C, Likely 5-C as a middle ground, 5-C as a high end.

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Tien is stronger than MAX Power Roshi/5-C Physicals​

This started as 5-C physicals, but it quickly became a debate about scaling in general. Let's go over the evidence,
First the evidence of scaling that we know of,​

1. Tien says, and Roshi believes that he would probably lose had the battle kept going against Tien.​
2. Tien is aware that Roshi didn't use his full power.​
3. Tien wasn't using his "full power" at first, but midway during the fight he does proclaim that he will use his full power against Roshi. (Thank you @Damage3245)​
4. Dragon Ball Bouken Special states that whoever wins the match (Goku vs Tien) is the strongest in the world. (which has been argued as a just a moniker of the tournament).​
5. While Roshi's Power Level is said to be 139 during the tournament according to the Daizenshuu and the Chouzenshuu, he jumps to 180 against King Piccolo according to Weekly Shounen Jump. Since there is no training and time skip, it's being argued that 180 is his full power during the tournament.​

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Second, the evidence and counter-evidence of ki = physicals.​

1. Several Characters have been shown to withstand charged blasts with durability alone (and were relative to their opponents)​
2. Several Characters have been shown to be severely damaged by charged blasts after withstanding physical blows.​
3. Most instances of measurable gaps between charged ki and physicals are measured to be 2 times or 10 times.​
4. There are examples of charged blasts being able to damage characters that can tank the user's physical attacks without budging.​

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@KingTempest's opinion

• KingTempest argues that Tien and Roshi are dead even, and points out the chapter they fight is called "dead even", so Tien is not strong enough to face MAX Power Roshi.
• KingTempest argues that it's ridiculous that OP is saying Tien is 5-C while fighting a Tier 8 Roshi, and that the gap cannot be that big since Roshi and Tien had a back and forth and Tien was sweating. Tien must be around Tier 8.
• KingTempest argues that the line of Tien and Roshi is referring to Roshi holding back.
• KingTempest points out MAX Power Roshi is not a form used for physical fighting, so there is no reason for the line to include that form.
• KingTempest argues that MAX Power Kamehameha should not scale to Roshi's physicals, durability or AP.
• KingTempest says Tien should stay at his current tier, and scale to normal Roshi. (Basically things stay as they are now)
• KingTempest argues MAX Power Kamehameha is a superior version of the Kamehameha like the Super Kamehameha, so the examples of the Super Kamehameha being partly resisted are invalid.

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@Damage3245's opinion

• Damage mirrors KingTempest's opinion in most points.
• Damage argues that physicals shouldn't scale to blasts all the time, it's a case-by-case thing.
• Damage points out situations where blasts are clearly superior to physicals. Such as a wave piercing through a wall which could not been broken by a punch.
• Damage says Tien should stay at his current tier, and scale to normal Roshi. (Basically things stay as they are now)

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@Nullflowerblush's opinion

• I honestly couldn't tell you, I saw him arguing for both sides and adding more context to both parties.

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OP's opinion

• I argue that Tien should surpass Roshi in every way, as we have several statements that Goku, who is equal to Tien, have surpassed Roshi. Roshi said that based on Goku's speed and strength
• I argue that MAX Power Kamehameha is just a regular Kamehameha used by someone who has MP Roshi's level of energy, and that anyone who has equal or superior amounts of ki to him would be able to launch a regular Kamehameha at the same level.
• I argue that Super Kamehameha is a higher multiplier of energy than a regular Kamehameha, and that it's barely is a 2.2x increase.
• I argue that even if the physicals are inferior, it shouldn't be by a factor of million, but tens or few.
• I argue that Tien should scale above Roshi in every way, and at least downscale from 5-C. Roshi should also downscale.

The compromises are: Tien and co stays at Tier 8 and scale above regular Roshi. Tien is possibly 5-C physically. Tien is 5-C.

So let's combine all compromises.

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OPTION 1​

Tien: 5-C, higher with Kikoho.

VOTES: @Dalesean027, @BestMGQScalerEver (either/or is fine) @Serlock_Holmes, @KLOL506, @TiltedFN, @Borutonarutodebunked, @ChronoULT, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Shadyboi0, @CloverDragon03, @Stryker861, @CryoTheMayo (12)​

OPTION 2​

Tien: Possibly 5-C, higher with Kikoho

VOTES: @ZoroNotZolo (either/or is fine), @CryoTheMayo, @CBslayeR, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Shadyboi0 (5)​

OPTION 3​

Tien: High 8-C, 5-C with Kikoho

VOTES:@ZoroNotZolo, @Nierre, @Da3ggman, @Dalesean027, @BestMGQScalerEver, @Cropfist (either/or is fine), @Nullflowerblush, @DarkDragonMedeus (leaning more to this one), @Stryker861, @Maverick_Zero_X, @Antvasima, @KingTempest (12)​

OPTION 4​

Tien: High 8-C, likely 5-C with Kikoho

VOTES: @Damage3245, @Nierre, @Da3ggman, @Cropfist (either/or is fine), @DarkDragonMedeus, @Maverick_Zero_X (6)​

OPTION 5​

Nothing changes (OP is rejected)

VOTES: @Damage3245, @Maverick_Zero_X (either/or is fine) (2)



We can eliminate options if you think it's unfair, please just tell me.

Also, when voting, please make a nice justification. FRAs are not welcome.​

 

[Damage3245]

The summary is great, however;

Tien wasn't using his full power either.

I want to provide clarification of this point in Tien wasn't using his "full power" at first, but midway during the fight he does proclaim that he will use his full power against Roshi.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Should we tell our opinions or better just let the staff members express themselves? I think just the staff members replying would be better for everyone here. Also I do find it funny that when Tien proclaims he will use his full power he blinds his opponent. He meant how much of a loser he is apparently. Well I'm of the option 1 opinion. Also whatever happens everyone please be civil myself included (as I have stepped out of line many times in this topic) and let's reach a conclusion in a constructive manner.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

The summary is great, however;


I want to provide clarification of this point in Tien wasn't using his "full power" at first, but midway during the fight he does proclaim that he will use his full power against Roshi.

Oh! Yes, I forgot about that, I even argued and highlighted that fact earlier in the debate! I apologize, this is fixed now

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Should we tell our opinions or better just let the staff members express themselves? I think just the staff members replying would be better for everyone here. Also I do find it funny that when Tien proclaims he will use his full power he blinds his opponent. He meant how much of a loser he is apparently. Well I'm of the option 1 opinion. Also whatever happens everyone please be civil myself included (as I have stepped out of line many times in this topic) and let's reach a conclusion in a constructive manner.

I'd prefer if only staff or more knowledgeable people spoke, either to correct or vote.

 

[Damage3245]

I can go into more depth later today or respond to specific arguments when the time comes, but for now you can put me down for Option 4 and 5, as either look acceptable to me.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I'd prefer if only staff or more knowledgeable people spoke, either to correct or vote.

I would like to add that before Tien said anything about his full power Roshi stated he will have to get serious without putting anything to water down the statement like a little serious or slightly serious and then moving his hands and buffing up himself. So while it wouldn't be his whole power it also wouldn't be a small amount out of the total. I would post the scan but I don't know how to do it the way damage did. No idea if it was included in the summary but I feel that it should. Yellow if you feel that it should be added I will post the scan.

 

[Damage3245]

I would like to add that before Tien said anything about his full power Roshi stated he will have to get serious without putting anything to water down the statement like a little serious or slightly serious and then moving his hands and buffing up himself. So while it wouldn't be his whole power it also wouldn't be a small amount out of the total. I would post the scan but I don't know how to do it the way damage did. No idea if it was included in the summary but I feel that it should. Yellow if you feel that it should be added I will post the scan.

Yeah. Nobody thinks that Roshi is being casual here. He does say he will fight seriously.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Yeah. Nobody thinks that Roshi is being casual here. He does say he will fight seriously.

That was the scan. Thank you Damage. Also Roshi did train during the 21nd and 22st Budokai which is also important I think.

 

[KingTempest]

Option 3-5 is fine with me, leaning towards 3

 

[Damage3245]

That was the scan. Thank you Damage. Also Roshi did train during the 21nd and 22st Budokai which is also important I think.

We already to take that into account. Roshi in the 22nd Budokai is rated higher than Roshi in the 21st Budokai.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

We already to take that into account. Roshi in the 22nd Budokai is rated higher than Roshi in the 21st Budokai.

Couldn't see it somewhere in the summary so wanted to note it down for everyone trying to come to a decision through the summary. Also I learned how to not post images directly thank god.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I've been keeping track of this entire back and forth. I'm leaning toward Option 2 for now. I think it's the greatest balance of all that's been discussed, and it helps mitigate some of the weirder inconsistencies like Kikoho being an absurd amount stronger than his physicals, but does acknowledge not only the superiority of the technique to the Kamehameha in terms of power, which was argued for instead of the Kikoho being superior to the MAX Power Kamehameha.

Also, I believe that this rating makes the most sense out of the power levels given for Roshi, given how it's hard to decipher whether it's referring to his full power, the power level of the MAX Power Kamehameha, etc. The "Possibly 5-C" rating is as conservative as you can get for either side of this debate on that matter, as well as the issue of how Tien scales to Roshi.

I don't have a horse in this race, but that's the way I see it after looking at all the arguments in the thread. Might need to read the chapters for the fight to really see for myself and get an idea of everything that was happening in the fight (though there are probably enough scans here that I can piece it all together lol).

 

[Damage3245]

I've been keeping track of this entire back and forth. I'm leaning toward Option 2 for now. I think it's the greatest balance of all that's been discussed, and it helps mitigate some of the weirder inconsistencies like Kikoho being an absurd amount stronger than his physicals

That's not a weird inconsistency.

It is made clear that the Kikoho is an absurd amount of times stronger than his physicals. With his physicals, Tien was getting consistently bested by Goku but he assured Goku that he would definitely die if he was hit by the Kikoho. (And given the surface area involved, Goku would actually only be hit by a fraction of the Kikoho)

 

[KingTempest]

Wasn't he about to DIE by using Kikoho??????

 

[Da3ggman]

I'm at school right now, so I'll try to make a more in-depth argument with scans and shit when I get home.

Anyway, I definitely agree that Tien's physical's shouldn't scale at all to his Kikoho. Master Roshi said that it was wicked of the Crane Master to teach him the move due to the likelyhood of it killing it. It also wouldn't make sense for his physicals to scale to the move that would one shot the guy (Goku) who he was fighting dead-even with for the past 10 chapters.

 

[KLOL506]

Option 1 is most preferable to me in this case.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

That's not a weird inconsistency.

It is made clear that the Kikoho is an absurd amount of times stronger than his physicals. With his physicals, Tien was getting consistently bested by Goku but he assured Goku that he would definitely die if he was hit by the Kikoho. (And given the surface area involved, Goku would actually only be hit by a fraction of the Kikoho)

That's fair. I can see how you'd see objections to that as an argument from incredulity (or as I like to call it, the Lex Luthor fallacy), so I can (kind of) concede on that point.

I can understand the reasoning behind Option 3, though. I think my main issue with it is that there isn't a precedent in Dragon Ball for an attack scaling that much higher than physicals, even though there is evidence that charged attacks > physicals.

I still think I lean towards 2, now mainly due to the lack of clarity on Roshi's power levels more than anything else, as whether it applies to Roshi's FP, or the strength of his MAX Power Kamehameha would play a role in determining how they scale.

I wouldn't be opposed to amending Option 2 to "High 8-C, possibly at most 5-C, higher with Kikoho", or "High 8-C, possibly 5-C, much higher with Kikoho". I know they look ugly, but I think they'd work better than the current option 2, and still acknowledge the massive power gap between Tien's physicals and his Kikoho.

 

[Damage3245]

I can understand the reasoning behind Option 3, though. I think my main issue with it is that there isn't a precedent in Dragon Ball for an attack scaling that much higher than physicals, even though there is evidence that charged attacks > physicals.

No matter how you look at it, there is going to be an extreme gap between physicals and Ki blasts somewhere here.

Roshi certainly isn't going around throwing Moon level punches and kicks during the 21st Budokai, but with his full power he is still capable of creating a MAX Power Kamehameha that can destroy the Moon.

Like, at what point, ever, is anyone in Dragon Ball prior to King Piccolo hyped up as having physical attacks on that level?

 

[TiltedFN]

Me personally am going for option 1

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

No matter how you look at it, there is going to be an extreme gap between physicals and Ki blasts somewhere here.

Roshi certainly isn't going around throwing Moon level punches and kicks during the 21st Budokai, but with his full power he is still capable of creating a MAX Power Kamehameha that can destroy the Moon.

Like, at what point, ever, is anyone in Dragon Ball prior to King Piccolo hyped up as having physical attacks on that level?

I can get that. You can put me down for both Options 2 and 3.

 

[Da3ggman]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention this, but I'm personally for option 3/4. I think the Kikoho should be stronger than any Kamehameha, given how Roshi ***** his pants at the mere thought of it, but I can definitely see the wiggle room of different interpretations.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Wasn't he about to DIE by using Kikoho??????

Tien? Not really. He was pretty fine albeit tired. So it's not like he used all his ki there. The problem was that Goku proceeded to knock him off air with the full propulsion of a kamehameha that's maybe what you are thinking or maybe some other kikoho. Except if you are referring to the kikoho as a technigue which can be fueled by life force either as a mistake to someone who hasn't mastered it or on purpose as a last resort like with Nappa and Probably with Cell though he managed to survive.

 

[KingTempest]

Tien? Not really. He was pretty fine albeit tired. So it's not like he used all his ki there. The problem was that Goku proceeded to knock him off air with the full propulsion of a kamehameha that's maybe what you are thinking or maybe some other kikoho.

cause via his words, he specifically held it back so he doesn't die

 

[Damage3245]

Tien? Not really. He was pretty fine albeit tired. So it's not like he used all his ki there. The problem was that Goku proceeded to knock him off air with the full propulsion of a kamehameha that's maybe what you are thinking or maybe some other kikoho.

That's because Tien said he was holding back some of his power for it.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Oh because you said he was about to die I thought you meant Tien nearly died. But it was just that it's a possible outcome due to the nature of the technigue if not handled properly. Else it can be used casually as a ki blast.

 

[Nierre]

Option 3/4 for me

 

[ImmortalDread]

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Based upon everything I've seen in this thread, I believe 5-C Kikoho is reasonable and that it's a reasonable interpretation that Goku, Tien and Roshi's physicals could scale to the MAX Kamehameha, given how the Super Kamehameha is depicted in the 23rd Budokai.

I'm voting for Option 2. Possibly 5-C physically (Tien, Roshi, Goku) and outright 5-C for Tien's Kikoho.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Freeza is known for his durability but I'd like to point out that 50% Freeza did survive X20 Goku's Super Kamehameha, when X20 Goku matches 50% Freeza's raw power. That could be counted as more precedent since Goku's physical blows could harm Freeza.

 

[Damage3245]

Freeza is known for his durability but I'd like to point out that 50% Freeza did survive X20 Goku's Super Kamehameha, when X20 Goku matches 50% Freeza's raw power. That could be counted as more precedent since Goku's physical blows could harm Freeza.

What does that have to do with the 22nd Budokai? Tien outright said Goku would die if he was hit by the Kikoho, which both Goku and Master Roshi agreed with.

This is not a case where the blast is somewhat comparable to their physicals...

 

[ImmortalDread]

I think I am being misinterpreted, I screenshotted this because we can't see those “examples”.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

What does that have to do with the 22nd Budokai? Tien outright said Goku would die if he was hit by the Kikoho, which both Goku and Master Roshi agreed with.

This is not a case where the blast is somewhat comparable to their physicals...

I'm not referring to the Kikoho. I'm referencing the Goku vs Piccolo fight where Piccolo survives a Super Kamehameha despite similar base power levels and then referencing Goku vs Freeza as another example of a fighter of equal power surviving a Super Kamehameha. The relevancy of that is based on whether you would interpret the MAX Kamehameha as superior to the Super Kamehameha in power.

I think I am being misinterpreted, I screenshotted this because we can't see those “examples”.

Oh lol, yeah I didn't realise that was a screenshot. Earlier in the thread those images worked and they showed Piccolo surviving a Super Kamehameha. Can someone repost them?

 

[KingTempest]

the MAX Kamehameha as superior to the Super Kamehameha in power.

why does this matter

 

[CBslayeR]

I like option 2

(Edit: Confused as to what Higher with Kikoho means with the High 8-C rating, would the Kikoho just be raw 5-C or would it just be High 8-C if we use the High 8-C version, don't count my vote until this gets clarified)

 

[CryoTheMayo]

why does this matter

• Goku = Piccolo roughly
• Kamehameha multiplies power
• If Super Kamehameha ~ MAX Kamehameha they multiply power to a similar degree (Against Raditz it's a little over 2x power level)
• Piccolo survives Super Kamehameha via physicals
  • Meaning Super Kamehameha (and MAX Kamehameha if they are interpreted as similar in power multiplier) is not massively above the user's physicals
• The person using the Super Kamehameha can survive their own attack
• Meaning their physicals roughly scale to the Super Kamehameha (and MAX if the boost is equivalent)

So if a person interprets that Roshi's MAX Kamehameha multiplies his power as much as Goku's Super Kamehameha does, then Roshi should be able to survive his own MAX Kamehameha. Which should scale to Tien and Goku, who have similar (or higher) power levels to him in the 22nd Budokai.

Super Kamehameha multiplier ~ MAX Kamehameha multiplier
Goku's Super Kamehameha > Piccolo (Survives it) = Goku
Roshi's MAX Kamehameha > Tien = Goku ~ Roshi (Meaning they logically can all survive it)

If instead you interpret that Roshi's MAX Kamehameha has a dramatically higher power amp than the Super Kamehameha then you can simply say no one's physicals would scale to it unlike Piccolo with the Super Kamehameha. I'm not leaning to either, just explaining why I think it's a relevant point.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Who said that the two Kamehameha being comparable in AP means that they multiply the user's power to a similar degree?

That's why I said it's up to interpretation. If you interpret that Roshi's MAX Kamehameha amplifies his power to a massive level then they obviously aren't comparable. But if a person thinks the Super Kamehameha is a superior amp to the MAX Kamehameha then the physical-technique power gap wouldn't be so wide.

Either way there's no point for me to discuss that further. I was just answering responses. It's part of the OP and was discussed earlier in the thread by other people.

 

[Damage3245]

That's why I said it's up to interpretation. If you interpret that Roshi's MAX Kamehameha amplifies his power to a massive level then they obviously aren't comparable. But if a person thinks the Super Kamehameha is a superior amp to the MAX Kamehameha then the physical-technique power gap wouldn't be so wide.

Either way there's no point for me to discuss that further. I was just answering responses. It's part of the OP and was discussed earlier in the thread by other people.

I removed my comment after I reread your post. I can see you weren't saying what I thought you were saying.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

So the point is if we consider MP Kamehameha the way it's much lower than a Kikoho and thus should scale to the users in some way or similar to the kikoho and thus should not scale to equal opponents. Is that your point Mayo?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

So the point is if we consider MP Kamehameha the way it's much lower than a Kikoho and thus should scale to the users in some way or similar to the kikoho and thus should not scale to equal opponents. Is that your point Mayo?

Well, I'm just referring to what OP states regarding the Kamehameha scaling and interpreting it. To me it comes down to one of two takes:

1. MAX Kamehameha is massively more powerful than the Super Kamehameha in multiplier (unusable for scaling, it's a huge power amp)
2. MAX Kamehameha is relative to the Super Kamehameha in multiplier (usable for scaling, because physical stats can endure Super Kamehameha)

None of the logic there is taking into account how the Kikoho is depicted. It seems like the Kikoho should be a bigger amp than the MAX Kamehameha based off the guidebook cited though.