Tien Shinhan, Krillin and possibly Yamcha should be upgraded to "at least High 5-A"

[Vizer04]

Currently, all of them are listed as 5-B (Planet Level) but in my opinion they should be upgraded to At least High 5-A (At least Dwarf Star Level) scaling to Goku (Namek Saga). Now, i'll proceed to explain my reasoning for this upgrade:

Goku casually deflecting Frieza's Death Beams

Much to Frieza's surprise, Goku can deflect all his attacks with ease.

Attacks that, at this point in the story no one but Goku can react to, let alone deflect them.

Goku and Tien dodging Dr. Gero's lasers

Dodging < Deflecting

Clearly, Goku had much trouble dodging Gero's attack than Frieza's Death Beams (and Goku has gotten stronger since the Namek Saga)

 

[SirAlex09]

I agree with Krillin and Tien but I disagree with Yamcha. There is nothing that suggests that he is on their level except for filler maybe

 

[Vizer04]

That's why i said "possibly", because he's always been regarded as "not too far behind Tien, or Krillin". But it's alright if you don't agree with that.

 

[SirAlex09]

But once the Anime adapts the manga Yamcha will get his high 4C upgrade anyway since he re-surpassed Roshi

 

[Vizer04]

True.

 

[Thelastmlg]

So wait, this is supposed to make gero high 5-A with time and krillin scaling to them?

also why did goku think "movement" when the beams came, that's like thinking "sound" when someone screams

 

[Vizer04]

So wait, this is supposed to make gero high 5-A with time and krillin scaling to them?

Basically that, yes.

also why did goku think "movement" when the beams came, that's like thinking "sound" when someone screams

i don't know, ask the person who translated it

 

[TheQuestioner]

Can you explain why this would make Krillin and Tien at least high 5-A? I can't really follow your logic.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I don't really understand how that would scale them to High 5-A

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I think they're using what Vegeta said about Power Levels to Cui in that a higher power level means you are faster. If it works vice versa, then that would mean that since Tien dodged a beam that base Goku had a harder time reacting to than Frieza's death beams, that he would be comparable in power to base Goku or above the lower High 5-A's like 3rd Zenkai Vegeta or the lower form Frieza's. Don't know if this what they're basing it off of or if actually works like this, just stating my thoughts.

 

[Vizer04]

Can you explain why this would make Krillin and Tien at least high 5-A? I can't really follow your logic.

I don't really understand how that would scale them to High 5-A

In Dragon Ball, more ki means more power and more speed. According to Tien's feat above, all of them should be on a level comparable to Goku during his fight with Frieza.

 

[Vizer04]

I think they're using what Vegeta said about Power Levels to Cui in that a higher power level means you are faster. If it works vice versa, then that would mean that since Tien dodged a beam that base Goku had a harder time reacting to than Frieza's death beams, that he would be comparable in power to base Goku or above the lower High 5-A's like 3rd Zenkai Vegeta or the lower form Frieza's. Don't know if this what they're basing it off of or if actually works like this, just stating my thoughts.

Correct, that's the reasoning i'm using for this CRT.

 

[SirAlex09]

It's also consistent with what the show implies in terms of PL

When Goku trained with Korin : 180
When Krillin and Tien with Korin : 216 and 250

When Goku trained with Kami : 340
When Krillin and Korin trained with Kami : 1,8k and 2k

They always caught up and had a higher jump in power than Goku. It seems reasonable that they caught up here as well. They should scale to his 3 million PL

 

[Thelastmlg]

Depends on the timeframe of their trainings though, but I agree

 

[DivineAura44]

I disagree with the notion that Tien and Krillin scale but Yamcha has no reason to. (Why? Because I'm a Yamcha fanboy ofc.) But if I'm being real, I haven't seen anything that makes Krillin scale to Tien.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Correct, that's the reasoning i'm using for this CRT.

I don't really agree with that reasoning because of the following:

• Vegeta said that when the power-level of a character increases, the speed becomes higher. However, that doesn't mean that the increase of speed is 1:1 with the increase of strength, speed and strength influence power-levels but power-levels are also affected by durability and speed is affected by other factors.
• We have seen counter-feats to that statement. Ginyu was stronger than Goku despite being slower and G3 Future Trunks was slower than Perfect Cell despite being slower.

 

[Vizer04]

I haven't seen anything that makes Krillin scale to Tien

Krillin surpassed Tien when Guru unlocked his hidden potential, but Tien quickly surpassed Krillin again after that as you can see in these scans from the manga:

 

[Vizer04]

I don't really agree with that reasoning because of the following:

• Vegeta said that when the power-level of a character increases, the speed becomes higher. However, that doesn't mean that the increase of speed is 1:1 with the increase of strength, speed and strength influence power-levels but power-levels are also affected by durability and speed is affected by other factors.
• We have seen counter-feats to that statement. Ginyu was stronger than Goku despite being slower and G3 Future Trunks was slower than Perfect Cell despite being slower.

Could Vegeta (Post-Zenkai) have dodged Gero's laser?

 

[Vizer04]

I disagree with the notion that Tien and Krillin scale but Yamcha has no reason to. (Why? Because I'm a Yamcha fanboy ofc.)

Don't misunderstand me, i agree with you on Yamcha's upgrade, but it's just safer to leave it in a awkward "possibly" than make an affirmation with certainty...

 

[Thelastmlg]

Could Vegeta (Post-Zenkai) have dodged Gero's laser?

No because gero was faster, not because he was stronger, I'm only agreeing on this if tien and krillin have reason to scale tbh

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I agree from what I've seen.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Could Vegeta (Post-Zenkai) have dodged Gero's laser?

Vegeta Post-Zenkai from the Frieza Saga? Probably not, since he would be slower than Frieza Saga Goku based on the scans you posted.

 

[Vizer04]

We have seen counter-feats to that statement. Ginyu was stronger than Goku despite being slower

Tien is definitely faster than Vegeta, by your logic he should be even stronger?

 

[DivineAura44]

Don't misunderstand me, i agree with you on Yamcha's upgrade, but it's just safer to leave it in a awkward "possibly" than make an affirmation with certainty...

I think it should be possibly for Krillin & Yamcha or neither.

 

[Orange]

I don't really agree with that reasoning because of the following:

• Vegeta said that when the power-level of a character increases, the speed becomes higher. However, that doesn't mean that the increase of speed is 1:1 with the increase of strength, speed and strength influence power-levels but power-levels are also affected by durability and speed is affected by other factors.
• We have seen counter-feats to that statement. Ginyu was stronger than Goku despite being slower and G3 Future Trunks was slower than Perfect Cell despite being slower.

The second note
May I remind you
That he
Specifically traded power for speed
That's why garden 4 exists

 

[DivineAura44]

I don't really agree with that reasoning because of the following:
Ginyu was stronger than Goku despite being slower and G3 Future Trunks was slower than Perfect Cell despite being slower.

Was Goku faster? I don't know evidence of that.

 

[TheQuestioner]

The second note
May I remind you
That he
Specifically traded power for speed
That's why garden 4 exists

The decrease in speed happened because of the increased muscles. The point is, even outside of that, the rate of increases speed and power have aren't always 1:1 because other factors exist.

Was Goku faster? I don't know evidence of that.

Here, I also made a mistake earlier. I meant to say that Goku was faster despite having a lower power-level (Goku has 90,000 in his base, Ginyu's max is 120,000).

Tien is definitely faster than Vegeta, by your logic he should be even stronger?

If I agreed with you, he should be. I don't see why he would be stronger by my logic though.

 

[Vizer04]

Here

Maybe Goku used Kaio-Ken for a brief instant, just like he did to stop Nappa when he attacked Krillin and Gohan.

 

[DivineAura44]

Here

That's travel speed. Mike Tyson runs slower than Usain Bolt but can probably throw a punch faster.

 

[DivineAura44]

Maybe Goku used Kaio-Ken for a brief instant, just like he did to stop Nappa when he attacked Krillin and Gohan.

In the anime there is no color, he probably didn't do that.

 

[Vizer04]

I have a question. If this somehow ends up being approved, what would happen with Tien's key (Buu Saga)?

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Buu Saga Tien would just be greater statistically since he's overall more powerful than he was in the Android/Cell Saga. His rating wouldn't really change.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Maybe Goku used Kaio-Ken for a brief instant, just like he did to stop Nappa when he attacked Krillin and Gohan.

Nothing in the manga indicates that he used Kaioken. Not to mention, Goku only uses Kaioken later when he's forced to.

That's travel speed. Mike Tyson runs slower than Usain Bolt but can probably throw a punch faster.

Either way, it's speed, Vegeta never made a distinction, so there's some room here for my side. All he said was that the higher your power level gets, the faster you become. I also have some other scans where the characters constantly separate speed and power when making statements on characters in mind, but I will have to search for them later first. I think this will be good enough for now though, read Piccolo's comment on A17's stats.

 

[Vizer04]

Buu Saga Tien would just be greater statistically since he's overall more powerful than he was in the Android/Cell Saga. His rating wouldn't really change.

But if Tien's growth is always the same, he should be closer to his power during the Tournament of Power.

 

[Vizer04]

Nothing in the manga indicates that he used Kaioken. Not to mention, Goku only uses Kaioken later when he's forced to.

Either way, it's speed, Vegeta never made a distinction, so there's some room here for my side. All he said was that the higher your power level gets, the faster you become. I also have some other scans where the characters constantly separate speed and power when making statements on characters in mind, but I will have to search for them later first. I think this will be good enough for now though, read Piccolo's comment on A17's stats.

We have no reason to believe Tien and Krillin function differently from the other fighters since they've always been balanced in their strenght and speed (unlike Trunks with his Buffed Form). Even more if you consider they've been training three years for the Androids that should be above SSJ level.

 

[TheQuestioner]

We have no reason to believe Tien and Krillin function differently from the other fighters since they've always been balanced in their strenght and speed (unlike Trunks with his Buffed Form). Even more if you consider they've been training three years for the Androids that should be above SSJ level.

That's fair I suppose, although I don't see why the training bit was relevant. The Android 17 and Ginyu statements are still counters though, Android 17 is "balanced" as far as we know and Goku was still faster despite having a lesser power level, he also could not break out of Ginyu's hold.

I would like to back up a bit because I have another issue here.

Tien is definitely faster than Vegeta

Your original argument relied on scaling Goku above Vegeta because he could not react to Frieza's death beams, correct? Well, he does dodge some a few pages later. Goku was also probably suppressed when he dodged Gero's lasers, the fact that Gero never remarked Goku's power supports that since he was not expecting Goku to have improved by a large amount since the Saiyan Saga. I also don't think that Goku struggled to dodge the beam really, he was just surprised by it. Tien however was sweating when he did so. I disagree due to all of this.

On a sidenote, I do not think that Yamcha is high 5-A because he was mistaken for their data of Goku initially. But high 5-A Yamcha was already a stretch in the first place so.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

But if Tien's growth is always the same, he should be closer to his power during the Tournament of Power.

Isn't Tien always training? If so then he should be getting stronger over the years even if it's slowly, which would mean his past self can't scale to his ToP self as he constantly grows (albeit slowly). Besides the time gap between ToP and the Android Saga is over a decade, more than enough time to grow significantly stronger.

His Buu Saga self would probably just scale to High 5-A if this is accepted, although he would be above his Android/Cell saga self cause he is stronger than before.

 

[Vizer04]

the fact that Gero never remarked Goku's power supports that since he was not expecting Goku to have improved by a large amount since the Saiyan Saga

Goku's punch was serious, and Gero was unfazed by it (much less impressed by it)

 

[Vizer04]

Isn't Tien always training? If so then he should be getting stronger over the years even if it's slowly, which would mean his past self can't scale to his ToP self as he constantly grows (albeit slowly). Besides the time gap between ToP and the Android Saga is over a decade, more than enough time to grow significantly stronger.

His Buu Saga self would probably just scale to High 5-A if this is accepted, although he would be above his Android/Cell saga self cause he is stronger than before.

Buu Saga happens 7 years after the Androids Saga.

The Tournament of Power isn't more than 6 years after Buu.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Buu Saga happens 7 years after the Androids Saga.

The Tournament of Power isn't more than 6 years after Buu.

Eh, DB super power jumps lol.